Podcast Summary: "The Undoing of America"
Making Sense with Sam Harris (#432)
Guest: David French
Recorded: August 27, 2025
Overview
In this episode, Sam Harris sits down with New York Times columnist and legal scholar David French to reflect on the state of American democracy during the second term of Donald Trump. The conversation explores the erosion of constitutional norms, the weaponization of federal institutions, the deepening crisis of justice and political retaliation, and the failures of checks and balances in U.S. governance. French, a lifelong conservative with a complex relationship to the current GOP, provides historical context, legal analysis, and personal concern regarding recent events.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The State of American Government under Trump's Second Term
- Escalating Assault on Republican Governance
- French begins by contextualizing the Trump administration as accelerating the erosion of the republic’s foundational checks:
"I would classify it as an assault on our republican form of government... the presidency has continued to just accumulate more and more power over time, but it has now gotten to a point where that process is accelerating out of control." — David French [01:32]
- The trend is no longer a slow creep but active, overt power grabs enabled by Trump-friendly legal theories and disregard for constitutional spirit.
- French begins by contextualizing the Trump administration as accelerating the erosion of the republic’s foundational checks:
2. David French’s Political Background and Bias
- French emphasizes his longstanding conservatism and past Republican identity.
"I had been a lifelong Republican... came of age politically during the Reagan presidency... would have long considered myself a Reagan conservative... Right until the rise of Trump, I would have called, proudly called myself a Republican, definitely called myself conservative, still call myself conservative, but no longer call myself Republican." — David French [03:32]
3. Norm Breaking, Justice System Distortion, and Political Retaliation
- Department of Justice as a Tool of Retaliation
- French points to the cumulative and unprecedented manipulation of the DOJ:
"The distortion of the Department of Justice into an instrument... stocked increasingly with Trumpist partisans, the explicit targeting... of political enemies for potential criminal investigations... The firing of prosecutors of the Jack Smith prosecution team, the pardoning of the January 6th rioters..." — David French [05:32]
- French points to the cumulative and unprecedented manipulation of the DOJ:
- Favoritism and Vengeance
- Sam Harris highlights a dangerous "loyalty above all" culture, resulting in both favoritism toward allies and vindictiveness toward perceived enemies.
- Harris notes that this loyalty-based selection "almost by definition" selects for unethical individuals willing to "pretend to believe things they obviously can't believe because they're preposterous... and willing to say those things in public." — Sam Harris [07:34]
- French analogizes the system to autocracy where justice is subject to the will of the leader.
4. The January 6th Pardons and Abuse of Presidential Power
- Historical Context of the Pardon Power
- French references the founding era’s debate about the presidential pardon as it relates to favoritism:
"The concern there was that the President would use the pardon power to assist his friends... that this would become an engine of political favoritism. This is something that has been worried about for more than 200 years." — David French [12:48]
- Trump’s blanket pardon of all January 6th participants, both violent and otherwise, is described as a direct realization of these original fears.
-
"When instead he said, everybody, everybody gets pardon or clemency there... even the most violent, even the most depraved received unmerited favor from Donald Trump." — David French [14:33]
- The failure of impeachment as a check is highlighted sarcastically:
"We've seen how powerful the impeachment mechanism has been in Trump's case." — Sam Harris [15:43]
- French references the founding era’s debate about the presidential pardon as it relates to favoritism:
5. Contradictions in Trump’s Messaging and Supporters’ Reactions
- Trump positions himself as a "law and order" president while pardoning those who violently attacked law enforcement; most supporters, living in "Trumpistan," feel no dissonance:
"If you are in Trumpistan, you believe the election was stolen... they’re living in a different universe from many, many, many millions of other Americans." — David French [16:58]
6. Specific Case: Retaliation Against John Bolton
- The targeting of John Bolton is examined as an example of vendetta politics, with French describing the withdrawal of security clearances as telecasting presidential motives.
- French emphasizes that such actions taint all future investigations:
"This is why you don’t name political enemies... Because who right now can have any confidence at all that this investigation is being conducted professionally?" — David French [19:04]
- Even real legal infractions become politically suspect, undermining the legitimacy of justice.
7. Accusations Against President Obama and Memory-Holed Outrages
- Harris and French discuss Trump’s accusations of treason against Obama—an act which in past times would have been presidency-defining, yet is now almost lost amid a torrent of other scandals.
"To have a sitting president accuse the prior one of possibly a capital offense and to say that he’s now being investigated, that's a 20 megaton piece of news that would completely subsume the presidency of any other president." — Sam Harris [22:05]
- French invokes Steve Bannon’s "flood the zone with shit" strategy, noting public fatigue and normalization of the outrageous:
"This is a very intentional strategy... There's actually a lot of people around him have a specific theory of power and are using Trump's impulsiveness and vindictiveness to pursue that theory of power." — David French [23:02]
8. Constitutional Checks and Congressional Power
- The conversation shifts to structural failings and the impotence of Congress as a check on executive power:
"Our nation is not supposed to have co equal branches. Congress is supposed to reign supreme... Congress alone possesses the power of the purse... Congress can impeach and remove members of the executive and judicial branches... This does not seem to describe the Congress that we have." — Sam Harris (quoting French) [24:01]
- French begins to discuss the Federalist Papers and the intended role of ambition and division between branches before the episode cuts off.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On DOJ Weaponization:
"There is a two tiered system of justice, that Trump’s allies receive mercy, Trump’s allies will even receive pardons. And Trump’s enemies... are going to be subjected to the most heightened... scrutiny." — David French [05:32]
- On Pardoning January 6th Offenders:
"When instead he said, everybody, everybody gets pardon or clemency there. And so even the most violent, even the most depraved received unmerited favor..." — David French [14:33]
- On the Impeachment Remedy:
"Madison arose and said, oh, we can deal with that through impeachment. Impeachment is the remedy." — David French [15:15]
- On the Media and Public Fatigue:
"If you’re just shoveling outrage into the public, you do induce fatigue...the natural human reaction to just non-stop outrage... is a lot of people just back away from that." — David French [23:02]
Important Timestamps
- [01:32] — French on the assault upon republican government
- [03:32] — French’s conservative background and break with the GOP
- [05:32] — DOJ distortion and targeting of political enemies
- [07:34] — Harris on the problem of selecting for loyalty over ethics
- [12:48] — French on the Founders’ fears about the pardon power
- [14:33] — French: “Even the most depraved received unmerited favor”
- [16:58] — The Trumpistan mindset and reality distortion
- [19:04] — French on the Bolton case and weaponization of investigations
- [22:05] — Harris on the forgotten magnitude of the treason accusation
- [23:02] — French on "flood the zone with shit" as a deliberate power strategy
- [24:01] — The failure of Congress and constitutional checks
Tone and Language
The conversation maintains a grave, analytical tone, with moments of irony and sardonic disbelief underscoring the seriousness of the subject matter. Both Harris and French blend historical perspective and legal insight with clear moral concern about the future of American democracy.
End of summary. This outline captures the major topics, themes, and tone of the conversation to support listeners’ understanding of this crucial and timely episode.