Making Sense with Sam Harris — Episode #444: "America's Zombie Democracy"
Guest: George Packer
Date: November 17, 2025
Summary prepared by Podcast Summarizer
Episode Overview
In this episode, Sam Harris sits down with George Packer, staff writer for The Atlantic and acclaimed author, to discuss Packer's recent article "America's Zombie Democracy." Together, they explore the current state of American democracy, the rise of authoritarian tendencies in U.S. government, the erosion of democratic institutions, and the normalization of previously unthinkable levels of corruption and shamelessness in politics. The conversation is candid, analytic, and deeply concerned with the fate of liberal norms, featuring memorable exchanges on what it now means for democracy to persist only in a kind of “zombie afterlife.”
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The "Zombie Democracy" Metaphor and Authoritarian Drift
- Packer’s Contention: The U.S. is living under a kind of authoritarian state, but the form this takes is more insidious and bureaucratic than past historic examples (i.e., no "goose-stepping troops"; [02:49]).
- Quote:
“You argue that our expectations about what it would mean to slide into authoritarianism are kind of faulty...the erosion of democratic norms has a different character than goose stepping troops in the streets or people getting put up against a wall and shot.”
— Sam Harris [02:49]
2. Clear Indicators of Democratic Decay
- Weaponization of the Justice Department: Packer cites the recent prosecution of political enemies (specifically, James Comey) as a glaring authoritarian maneuver ([03:40]).
- Quote:
“President Trump found the prosecutor who would do his bidding....If the president can use the Justice Department as his personal police force ... that’s a huge check against unaccountable power that’s been taken down.”
— George Packer [04:05]
- Quote:
- Counterarguments: Sam notes that MAGA supporters often claim Trump himself is the real victim of political prosecution ([05:09]), raising the challenge of objectivity and partisanship in defining authoritarian overreach.
3. The Institutions in Question: What’s Most at Risk?
- Justice Department — Independence effectively lost.
- Congress — No longer asserting rights to tax or spend, ceding Article I power to the president ([07:21]-[09:45]).
- Defense Department — Trump openly uses military for political gains.
- Quote:
“There is no distinction any longer between what Trump wants and what his attorney general is willing to do.”
— George Packer [07:34] - Notably, the military’s culture of nonpartisanship is seen as a last bulwark ([09:50]).
- Quote:
“Trump gives speeches to troops that are nakedly partisan...This is maybe the most dangerous one.”
— George Packer [09:56]
- Quote:
4. Complacency and the Eerie Normality of Daily Life
- Lack of mass awareness or concern is itself alarming.
- Quote:
“That’s a profound question...waiting for the worm to turn and for suddenly there to be a kind of collective shock and awakening and it doesn’t happen.”
— George Packer [12:43]
- Quote:
- Harris and Packer discuss how life under “zombie democracy” feels disarmingly normal—no censorship, no knock on the door, ordinary routines persist ([12:43]-[14:09]).
- Scandals (e.g. foreign money, meme coins) remain abstract and fail to resonate with the public the way more tangible indiscretions once did.
5. The Scale of Corruption and the Public’s Reaction
- Shift in Moral Perception:
- Harris compares the scale of Trump's corruption (“literally raking in billions”) to the way Hillary Clinton’s speaking fees once ignited scandal ([10:21]-[11:40]).
- The inability of much of the public—even among non-partisan, well-informed citizens—to see the magnitude of recent ethical breaches is perplexing and worrying.
- Quote:
“Just stepping back from the autopsy we’ve begun to perform here, how do you account for the fact that at least half of American society doesn’t think that anything truly out of the ordinary is happening?”
— Sam Harris [11:51]
6. Shamelessness as Political Superpower
- The End of Hypocrisy: Trump’s unapologetic stance on corruption removes the engine for outrage; there is no shame or attempt at concealment ([16:05]-[16:35]).
- Quotes:
“The one thing you can’t convict him of is hypocrisy. He really is not a hypocrite, he’s just corrupt. He won’t even acknowledge that corruption is a thing...Of course I’m self-dealing. I would be stupid not to be self dealing.”
— Sam Harris [16:12] “Shamelessness with Trump is a great superpower...the virtue of hypocrisy begins to become clear. It is actually a sign that there are certain standards.”
— George Packer [16:35]
- Quotes:
- Contrast With Prior Eras: Packer points to public apologies as liabilities—referencing Al Franken’s fall, where contrition led to resignation ([19:30]).
- Quote:
“He actually tried to say, I did something wrong and I’m sorry. I want to apologize to each of them individually. What a fool. Why not just say, yeah, so what? Make me resign?”
— George Packer [19:38]
- Quote:
7. Diminishing Returns of Outrage and the Role of Social Media
- Apologies are interpreted as displays of weakness and only result in greater public attacks ([18:31]).
- Quote:
“If you apologize...it's gonna look more like a cultural revolution confession, where that just becomes the trigger for them to then descend on you and tear you to pieces, rather than a ceremony of confession, atonement, redemption, forgiveness.”
— George Packer [18:31]
- Quote:
8. Looking Ahead: Future Red Lines and Wake-Up Calls
- Packer and Harris begin to discuss potential thresholds (e.g. further actions in the coming election) that, if crossed, might finally force public recognition of democratic breakdown ([20:00]).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)
-
On the “zombie” state of democracy:
“[Institutions] are persisting in some kind of zombie afterlife.”
— Sam Harris [06:56] -
On the breakdown of norms:
“There is no distinction any longer between what Trump wants and what his attorney general is willing to do.”
— George Packer [07:34] -
On shamelessness:
“Shamelessness with Trump is a great superpower. I'm beginning to think shamelessness might be the superpower of the most powerful and successful people in the world today.”
— George Packer [16:35] -
On failed public accountability:
“If you apologize...it's gonna look more like a cultural revolution confession, where that just becomes the trigger for them to then descend on you and tear you to pieces…”
— George Packer [18:31] -
On hope for awakening:
“Waiting for the worm to turn and for suddenly there to be a kind of collective shock and awakening and it doesn’t happen.”
— George Packer [12:43]
Key Timestamps
- [02:49] — Introduction of the “zombie democracy” metaphor and the new character of American authoritarianism.
- [03:40] — Packer on the prosecution of political enemies and the weaponization of the DOJ.
- [07:21] — Analysis of failing institutions: Justice Department, Congress, the military.
- [10:21] — Harris on the normalization of corruption and public indifference.
- [12:43] — Packer on the eerie normality and public denial.
- [16:05] — Shamelessness as a political strength and the demise of hypocrisy.
- [18:31] — The modern function (and failure) of public apologies.
- [19:30] — The demise of figures like Al Franken as a sign of changing norms.
- [20:00] — Brief allusion to bright lines and future dangers in coming elections.
Tone & Style
The discussion is sober, unsparing, and laced with moments of dark humor and rueful recognition. Both speakers voice a kind of alarmed incredulity at the rapid and brazen erosion of once-unquestioned standards in American public life, with especial focus on the breakdown of mechanisms for accountability, and a society anesthetized to democratic decline.
Conclusion
Harris and Packer sketch a portrait of a democracy that still looks, on the surface, like itself—but has lost much of its substance. The normalization of corruption, the collapse of institutional independence, and the triumph of shamelessness over moral norms serve as central themes, all underlined by the public's unsettling indifference. The episode closes with both a warning and a question: what, if anything, will finally awaken the ‘zombie’—or pronounce it truly dead?
End of summary