Making Sense with Sam Harris

Episode #460 — "When the Center Cannot Hold"

Guest: Jonah Goldberg
Date: February 20, 2026

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sam Harris hosts conservative pundit and writer Jonah Goldberg to discuss the increasing polarization of American politics, the breakdown of institutional norms, and the structural pitfalls that have led to a uniquely precarious moment for democracy in the United States. They explore the erosion of trust in public institutions, the consequences of partisan primaries, the cult of personality around Donald Trump, and what a possible path to political sanity could look like. The conversation also delves into the risks surrounding upcoming midterms, the right’s infighting between anti-Trump, pro-Trump, and extremist factions, and the difficulty of restoring balance and trust in American governance.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Erosion of Institutional Trust and Political Norms

• [01:00 – 03:39]

• Goldberg opens with concern about the politicization of government institutions and the breakdown of longstanding norms, particularly under the Trump administration.
• Notable Moment: Goldberg points to federal judges “abolishing the presumption of regularity,” meaning courts no longer assume government lawyers present facts honestly.
  • “A number of federal judges have basically abolished or rescinded what they call... the presumption of regularity... we can’t give you that benefit of the doubt anymore because you guys are lying.” — Jonah Goldberg [03:06]
• Goldberg underscores that norm violations have cascading effects; once lost, institutional trust is difficult to restore.

2. The Dilemma of Rebooting the System

• [03:39 – 06:17]

• Harris and Goldberg discuss the conundrum: even if a “completely sane president” takes office in 2028, any effort to overhaul staff or norms will be framed as another act of partisanship.
• The challenge is how to restore good governance in a way that’s perceived as legitimate, not as retaliation.
• Goldberg: “You can’t just have one sane party... If one party is crazy, it gives permission to the other party to be crazy as well. And that’s a vicious cycle.” [05:08]

3. Rise of Extremism Due to Structural Political Flaws

• [06:17 – 09:48]

• Both agree that changes in primary systems and campaign finance have incentivized extremism. Candidates now appeal to the angriest bases to avoid being outflanked rather than appeal to broad, centrist constituencies.
• Quote:
  • “If you send me to Washington, I’ll work with anybody… you will not win a primary.” — Jonah Goldberg [07:57]
  • Instead, aggressive, divisive rhetoric is what “gets the nomination.”
• Media ecosystems (Fox News, MSNBC) further entrench polarization.

4. Executive Overreach and Prospects for Reform

• [10:35 – 13:05]

• Harris asks whether a Democratic president could run and govern by pledging to reduce executive power — even at their own expense — to start “resetting the system.”
• Goldberg’s take is pessimistic about the chances in primaries, but says that, if nominated, a candidate could find success with a “return to decency” message.
  • “That was Joe Biden’s message… the problem is, he didn’t deliver on it because he made a deal with the hardcore base of his party.” — Jonah Goldberg [11:56]
  • “It could be an even more winning message at the end of the Trump era, but it takes the right kind of Democrat to carry it.” — Jonah Goldberg [13:04]

5. Midterm Elections: Forecast and Concerns

• [13:06 – 15:41]

• Goldberg predicts Democrats taking back the House and possibly making gains in the Senate.
  • “It’s just very hard for me to imagine that Democrats don’t take back the House and at least tighten the margin in the Senate.” — Jonah Goldberg [14:22]
• Harris and Goldberg acknowledge that even a Democratic Congress could succumb to overreach, such as aggressive impeachment efforts, which might backfire.

6. Congressional Cowardice and the Cult of Personality

• [15:41 – 18:38]

• Goldberg critiques Congressional Republicans for abandoning institutional responsibilities, attributing this to the “cult of personality” around Trump and fear of his base.
  • “The GOP controlled Congress... is just shot through with what social scientists call cowards. It’s embarrassing, it’s terrible.” — Jonah Goldberg [15:26]
• Harris asks if Trump’s ability to threaten primary challenges keeps Republicans in line — Goldberg agrees:
  • “Trump’s superpower is that he can kill you in the primaries.” — Jonah Goldberg [16:31]
  • Some Republicans may become more independent once primary threats recede.

7. Infighting and Extremist Factions on the Right

• [18:38 – 21:08]

• Harris highlights the “schism” on the right: those who want to disavow white nationalism vs. those willing to accept extremists to broaden the big tent.
  • “The schism... seems to be between Republicans who think Nazis are probably still bad, all things considered, and those who think that, no, we actually kind of need the Nazis.” — Sam Harris [19:06]
• Goldberg calls this “anti-anti-Nazi” — not that these politicians are Nazis, “they just think part of their political interest is covered by defending people who are either Nazis or Nazi-adjacent.”
  • “There are many rooms in the mansion of Bat Guano Crazy, bigoted, right wingery… If you want Neo-Nazis in the tent, it is a reasonable conclusion looking from outside the tent.” — Jonah Goldberg [20:41]

Notable Quotes

• On Institutional Decline:
  • “Once you violate these kinds of norms and these institutional rules… you can't recreate it overnight.” — Jonah Goldberg [02:51]
• On Party Dynamics:
  • “If one party is crazy, it gives permission to the other party to be crazy as well. And that's a vicious cycle.” — Jonah Goldberg [05:08]
• On Primaries and Political Incentives:
  • “If you send me to Washington, I’ll work with anybody… you will not win a primary.” — Jonah Goldberg [07:57]
• On Congressional Republicans:
  • “The GOP controlled Congress… is just shot through with what social scientists call cowards.” — Jonah Goldberg [15:26]
• On Big Tent Extremism:
  • “There are many rooms in the mansion of Bat Guano Crazy, bigoted, right wingery.” — Jonah Goldberg [20:41]
  • “If you want Neo-Nazis in the tent, it is a reasonable conclusion looking from outside the tent.” — Jonah Goldberg [20:45]
• On Restoring Sanity:
  • “It could be an even more winning message at the end of the Trump era, but it takes the right kind of Democrat to carry it.” — Jonah Goldberg [13:04]

Important Timestamps

• [01:00] — Goldberg expresses top concern: politicization and erosion of institutions.
• [03:06] — Judges rescind presumption of regularity for government lawyers.
• [06:17] — Goldberg explains “crazy begets crazy”—calls for sanity in both parties.
• [07:57] — Dangers of primary system and fringe-voter incentives.
• [10:35] — Harris asks if a Democratic president could run on executive power reduction.
• [13:06] — Midterm predictions; likely Democratic gains.
• [14:45] — Consequences if Democrats take Congress; risks of overreach.
• [15:26] — Goldberg calls Congress “cowards.”
• [16:31] — Trump’s power lies in controlling primaries.
• [19:06] — Harris describes right-wing schism over extremism.
• [20:41] — Goldberg’s “mansion of Bat Guano Crazy” analogy.

Tone and Style

The conversation is earnest, candid, and often direct, with Goldberg offering both analytical distance and sharp criticism—especially regarding Republican failings. Harris probes for structural explanations and practical remedies, occasionally displaying wry incredulity at the state of affairs. The episode maintains a tone of concern for American democracy and institutional health, frequently lamenting the incentives that reward extremism and punish moderation.

Summary for First-Time Listeners

This episode provides a deeply informed, unsparing look at the cascading dysfunction in American politics. Sam Harris and Jonah Goldberg discuss how the dominance of fringe voters and media bubbles, the cult of personality around Trump, and the breakdown of institutional guardrails have made the “center” in American political life nearly untenable. They shed light on the dangers of both parties chasing their extremes and how attempts to restore sanity or normalcy will themselves be politically fraught, if not outright impossible, under current dynamics. The discussion is laced with memorable analogies, historical context, and sober warnings about the difficulty—though not impossibility—of reclaiming a stable, centrist democracy.