Podcast Summary
Making Space with Hoda Kotb
Episode: Charlie Mackesy on Creativity, Connection and the Courage to Continue
Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Hoda Kotb
Guest: Charlie Mackesy
Overview
In this heartfelt episode, Hoda Kotb sits down with Charlie Mackesy, acclaimed author and illustrator of "The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse" and its follow-up, "Always Remember." Their conversation explores themes of creativity, resilience, the importance of kindness and connection, and the complex journey through loss and healing. Charlie shares personal stories of grief, the emotional impact of his work on readers, and the influence of wonder and curiosity in his everyday life. Listeners will come away with a renewed sense of hope, encouragement, and appreciation for the quiet acts of courage and compassion that sustain us.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
The Emotional Impact of Creative Work (03:12 – 07:54)
- Charlie’s Vulnerability: Charlie describes the emotional exhaustion of meeting readers who share personal stories about how his work touched or saved them.
"I'm tired emotionally because the stories people have told me are so moving. And I've cried with people for now for days listening to their reactions..." (03:47)
- Receiving Others’ Stories: He emphasizes the bravery of those who share intimate experiences at his signings, striving to give each person his full attention.
"I have to really pretend that each person is on their own with me, like you and I. So I really listen and try and give them my whole presence." (05:02)
- Impact Across Demographics: Even stoic men—military, firemen—open up to him about how his book helped them emotionally.
"They just go ... tell me something really heartfelt about a journey they made with the book that kept them here. And of course, my eyes are pouring, their eyes are pouring, then they quickly gather themselves in and walk away..." (06:30)
Creativity in Times of Grief and Challenge (07:08 – 09:59)
- Personal Loss: Charlie openly discusses creating during a difficult time, having lost his beloved dog and his mother.
"Right smack bang in the middle of making the book...I lost my mum sort of the year before that. So it's been a long journey of ... loss." (08:42)
- Unconscious Creation: He reflects on how his subconscious weaves his emotional experiences into his art.
"I think I make things from my subconscious. I'm not sure if I go, 'I will write about what I'm going [through].' But if I look at it now, I think, 'Oh, I see what I was doing.'" (09:16)
- Recognizing Perseverance: Charlie is intentional about validating the struggles that people have endured.
"I wrote the words, 'One day you look back and realize how hard it was and just how well you did.'" (09:43)
Navigating Simplicity, Success, and Purpose (09:59 – 13:53)
- Comparing Life Before and After: Charlie expresses gratitude for taking risks and doing creative work that helps people despite longing at times for the simplicity of life before fame.
"If you get the chance to do something that might help someone somewhere, then just do it, even if your life before was much easier." (10:19)
- Interpersonal Kindness: He highlights the quiet courage of many whose kindness goes unrecognized, such as nurses.
"I think you know so many...do, you know. I've got friends who are nurses and they're largely unthanked..." (13:21)
Childhood Roots and Early Inspirations (13:53 – 16:11)
- Creative Beginnings: Charlie’s childhood room was messy, filled with posters of life sayings and his own drawings—perhaps an early influence on his signature pairing of words and illustrations.
"There were maybe 50 different...sayings, maxims...with a drawing to go with it. So maybe that influenced me. Just remembered that. It's so weird." (14:31)
- Parental Encouragement: His parents supported his creativity, emphasizing fulfillment over financial security.
"My dad always used to say, 'Listen, I didn't enjoy my work. It was a means to an end. If you can find something you love, then do it.'" (15:40)
Finding One’s Path, Living Authentically (16:18 – 19:13)
- Resisting Convention: Charlie struggled with formal education and gravitated toward independent artistic pursuit, supported by odd jobs and drawing in the streets.
"Even at art college...you know, figurative drawing was definitely not the thing...So I kept leaving. ... I think a lot of me is just try to listen...Try to respect what you feel needs to be done." (16:32)
- Making Ends Meet: He describes balancing survival jobs with his art, sharing the pain when jobs interfered with drawing.
"Some of the building site work I did made my hands so sore at night I couldn't draw." (18:00)
- Formative Street Experiences: Stories include selling art directly to strangers and learning resilience.
"I heard her say to her kids, 'That's what happens to you if you don't do your homework.' So there were low points." (18:32)
The Value of Connection, Kindness, and Wonder (20:23 – 24:38)
- Generosity of Strangers: Charlie recounts the kindness of Pam Miller, who took him in during his early years in America—a pivotal figure in his journey.
"She basically looked after me...made sure I had enough paper to draw. ... She was an absolute solid wow." (20:30)
- Living Day-by-day: He embraces improvisational living, waiting for what each day brings, leading eventually to the creation of his beloved characters and stories.
"I've always been sort of, 'See how the day unfolds, see what it presents to you, respond to it.'" (23:31–24:01)
Growth, Healing, and Accepting the Process (27:01 – 32:21)
- Character Development and Emotional Literacy: Charlie's characters foster vulnerability and emotional expression, especially among children and men.
"These characters...if someone had said, 'Make something that helps men realize that asking for help is brave,' I don't think I'd have chosen a mole." (26:59)
- Listening to Need: He only makes books that feel essential.
"It has to have its own desire, its own instinct. It has to need to exist." (29:08)
- Patience and Nature as Metaphor: He compares personal growth (and frustration with it) to growing a forest; it’s a slow, organic process.
"I planted a lot of trees ... trying to grow a huge forest. ... I recognized I was impatient with the growth of young trees, but I was impatient with myself in so many ways." (31:17)
Wonder and Curiosity as Lifelong Practices (34:09 – 37:40)
- Retaining Awe: Despite success, Charlie nurtures curiosity and wonder, inspired daily by art, nature, and people.
"I think I have more awe and wonder now than I ever did. ... The wonder makes you open and it makes you curious." (36:00)
- Valuing Everyday Beauty: He marvels at overlooked beauty and the lessons in ordinary encounters, grateful for the chance to learn from others.
Grief, Resilience, and Communal Healing (37:40 – 41:04)
- On Grief: Charlie reflects on the unique, unpredictable flow of grief, emphasizing the importance of honoring one's feelings and connecting with others.
"I think grief is a strange thing, and it has a life of its own. ... For me, to fill a void...I don't think you can ever just fill a void. ... We have to allow the pain." (38:17)
- Interdependence over Independence: Later in life, Charlie learns to value shared vulnerability and communal support.
"The more I've lived, the more I've cherished interdependence rather than independence, shared vulnerability, daring to say this is who I really am and not worrying about it." (41:04)
The Universality of Human Experience (44:05 – 47:56)
- Shared Humanity: Charlie shares a profound memory of realizing—across geographic and cultural divides—that people are fundamentally similar in their emotional lives.
"'We're just the same, aren't we?' ... We came from different continents, different colors, different experiences...It was incredible. ... I never knew this." (45:59)
Remembering Love and Identity (48:20 – 49:46)
- The Genesis of "Always Remember": The title derived from a tender memory of his mother’s daily affirmation.
"Always remember you are here. ... It's so crucial in these times of uncertainty to remember who we are, that we're loved, that we matter..." (49:26)
Memorable Quotes & Moments
- On the transformative power of kindness:
"There's so much courage and kindness in this world that we don't see that goes on like a river quietly passing us by." (13:21 – Charlie)
- On self-doubt and persistence:
"If you get the chance to do something that might help someone somewhere, then just do it. Even if your life before was much easier." (10:19 – Charlie)
- On the beauty of tears:
"Tears are a beautiful thing. They're such an important part of existence, you know, and they fall for a reason. And they're your strength." (41:04 – Charlie)
- On finding the purpose in loss:
"We have to allow the pain, that it will always be that. We have to work out how to live with it and be hopeful and ... engage with life and the new and possibility and what could arrive." (39:47 – Charlie)
- On remembering one's worth:
"Remember who you are, that you're loved, and you're important, you matter, and you bring to this world things no one else can." (49:26 – Charlie)
Notable Timestamps
- 03:12–04:55: Charlie describes the emotional stories readers share with him and his efforts to be present.
- 08:42–09:02: Charlie discusses losing his dog and mother and how grief informed his creative process.
- 18:32–19:13: Anecdotes from Charlie’s years drawing on the street and selling his art.
- 20:23–21:10: A story about Pam Miller, who took Charlie in when he needed support in America.
- 29:08–31:00: Charlie’s creative philosophy about waiting for a book to truly demand existence.
- 36:00–37:40: Charlie extols the virtues of curiosity and daily wonder.
- 38:17–41:04: Honest reflection on grief and the process of moving forward while honoring loss.
- 45:59–46:26: Moving story of recognizing shared humanity with a stranger in Botswana.
- 49:26–49:51: The origin of the book title "Always Remember" from his mother’s affirmations.
Final Reflections
Charlie Mackesy's life and art are testaments to the strength found in kindness, the healing power of vulnerability, and the perennial value of listening and wonder. His gentle wisdom, derived from loss as well as connection, invites each of us to embrace messiness, be present with pain, and nurture hope in ourselves and others.
Recommended Action:
Pick up Charlie's latest book Always Remember for a tangible, heartfelt companion through life’s storms—one that, as Hoda observed, you'll want to hold and return to often.