A (3:12)

First of all, Charlie, I'm just happy to be sitting with you.

B (3:15)

Thank you.

A (3:16)

It's our first time in person, which is a thrill for me.

A (3:21)

This book is. Is another.

B (3:24)

Wow.

A (3:25)

It's a New York Times. It keeps hitting and hitting and hitting, which means people keep receiving and receiving and receiving. How does that feel like for you to put something into the world? Were you wondering, are people still going to want this sort of thing?

B (3:39)

I mean, I was wondering definitely, and I made it in a difficult time.

A (3:44)

Yeah.

B (3:45)

And so.

B (3:47)

You never know what people are going to feel until you put. Till he put. Put it out. And, yeah, I'm really moved. Like, I've been in D.C. and Boston and here now, signing them and listening to people and I think, I mean, I, you know, I haven't slept last night, but other than that, I'm tired emotionally because of the stories people have told me are so moving. And I've cried with people for now for days listening to the. Their reactions to the first. And because I'm obviously done this in America before, so it's really, really overwhelming to meet people and hear them tell me things that, you know, are quite. Either shocking or funny or, you know, or. You got the whole array of things. Men telling me how it kept them alive, women telling me, you know, that they read the book with their. Their mother. I mean, all these things. I suppose with the second book, I wasn't sure what the reaction would be, and so far, I'm amazed.

A (4:55)

It's a lot to.

B (4:56)

It's a lot to process.

A (4:57)

I was gonna say, when someone hands you their heart and says, charlie, look what you did for me.

B (5:02)

Right. It's so brave of them and so moving to here. And when you get the number of people doing that, I have to really pretend that each person is. Is on their own with me, like you and I. And they're not in the queue. And so I really listen and try and give them my whole presence rather than saying, here's a sign book, so. And the stories are so Valuable and heartfelt. Every single one, you know, that it's. It's. It's such a privilege. And I never thought. I didn't think I'd make another book. And I certainly didn't think I'd be in position where I was doing this again, you know, hearing from people directly.

A (5:44)

I mean, to hear someone say, oh, you just kind of said it in a way because you've heard it before. But someone say, I'm here because of some words in your book.

B (5:56)

I'm still a few of those last night, even in New York. And I was wondering about New York, what it'd be like. Cause, you know, it's. I suppose as an environment, I assume that people be more robust, you know, you know, more. Yeah.

A (6:12)

Tough guys.

B (6:12)

Tough guys, yeah. And Bill, what interested me was. And Laura, who's here, who I work with, saying, you saw these guys approach. They look like pretty, you know, military or firemen, you know, that. And then they just go, oh, you know, tell me something.

B (6:30)

Really heartfelt about a journey they made with the book that kept them here. And of course, my. My eyes are pouring. Their eyes are pouring. Then they quickly, you know, gather themselves in and walk away, just saying thank you. And so it's really like nothing I'd ever imagined it would be.

A (6:48)

Do you feel like. I mean, we talked about where we are as a world. As a world, and your last book was during COVID and it was, you know, we were in another difficult time. How does it feel from your point of view, where we are now? Does it feel better or worse than then for you?

B (7:08)

Gosh, for me, it just feels very different.

B (7:15)

I think. You know, I suppose on one level, I write these things for that, just for us, wherever we are in time, whether it's good or bad, you know, the human condition remains pretty much the same, whether it's 100 years ago or 300 years time. I think we operate very similarly, but obviously we go through periods of unrest and fear and all kinds of tribulations that vary. And therefore the book can speak into those things, you know. But I think it is different now. There's as much fear and unrest as there ever was.

B (7:54)

I think possibly it feels. You may. The first book came out, we were all together, going through, collectively going through this huge storm. Whereas now it feels like we're more divided.

B (8:07)

We've polarized in various ways across the world.

A (8:11)

You mentioned quickly that you were also going through a difficult time during this book. And I went back and looked at one of your interviews. I think it Was CBS Sunday Morning when you were in your shed, and you know what I noticed? You took that puppy and put that puppy in a bag and took your dog on a bike ride.

B (8:29)

It came everywhere. Yeah.

A (8:30)

And I thought about that and how. What kind of a connection and partnership and love was shared there and did you lose your puppy during this time?

B (8:42)

The right smack bang in the middle of making the. Yeah, yeah. Beginning of this year when I was, you know, trying to put it together, trying to keep together and then coming apart emotionally and.

B (8:57)

Yeah, and I lost my mum sort of the year before that. So it's been a long journey of, you know.

A (9:02)

Well, you feel that loss. Cause there was that. I mean, there were so many beautiful parts in the book where one, the little boy loses his friends and wonders if he'll find them again. Was that kind of speaking to what you were going through at that time?

B (9:16)

You know, the thing is, I think I make things from my subconscious. I'm not sure if I go, I will write about what I'm going. But if I look at it now in retrospectively, I think, oh, yeah, I see what I write was doing, but I wasn't that aware of it, but I think I'd always wanted to. I remember in lockdown thinking, if I do another book, I want to say well done to everyone because everyone is. The humans are just amazing and they are trying so hard in every possible way given whatever situation they're in. But I remember thinking, how well have people done? And so I wrote the words. One day you look back and realize how hard it was and just how well you did. Because I often think we don't realize how hard it is.

A (9:59)

Do you ever think about comparing your life before all this? How it was simple, how you didn't have any worries or concerns, knowing everything you know now if you look back at that simple life where you didn't have anything, any big worries, I don't think which was better for you.

B (10:19)

You can't compare them. What I'm grateful for now, I suppose, is that, like I feel when I hear from people who chose to stay, if I hadn't done it, maybe they wouldn't have stayed. I mean, you know, it's an amazing feeling that you happen to be in a messy room scribbling away and make something that can keep someone alive or give someone hope or less lonely or make them feel more hopeful or encourage kids to draw, write their feelings down or get men sharing their emotions they wouldn't have done before or. So for me, I'm very Glad that I dared. I think it was that Roosevelt quote, you know, about the critic. And it's that you're braver to be in the arena, sweating and making mistakes, not doing it perfectly. But guess what? You did it like you're. Like you're doing. You know, I think if you. If you. If you get the chance to do something that might help someone somewhere, then just do it. Even if your life before was much easier.

B (11:21)

Simpler, you know, less complicated.

A (11:24)

That's right.

B (11:25)

Um, so I'm very glad that I've done it, but sometimes, you know, I just feel the weight of things and read emails and, you know.

B (11:37)

I don't know. I do events where people write and say, I would like to come to the event, but my doctor says I won't make it. So I'm just writing to you now to say I would have come if I could. And of course, you know, you're just streaming, reading an email, going, but thank you for the book. It's helped me on my journey, and I'm really grateful. I just, on a daily basis, weeping and then, you know, have my iPad. I do a drawing and then email a drawing to them. It only takes three minutes, you know, and then I'm glad that they feel more connected. I'm glad.

B (12:08)

That I've done it.

A (12:11)

Well, you have a gift. I mean, you probably won't remember this, but you were here at the Today show one day, and I wasn't here because my little girl was really sick.

B (12:24)

I remember.

A (12:30)

And you. This is so, so funny, but you took a paper plate.

B (12:35)

Plate. Yeah, I did.

A (12:36)

And you wrote that you miss me. And I put it. It's in my office now. And when I look at it, I remember that time, but also.

A (12:47)

What you have. And I'm. I mean, this is on my. I mean, my little girl's feeling so good now, so I. I mean, life is so crazy, but to feel that feeling that you're getting from people time after time after time. My daughter, myself, my life, my this. I mean, it's a lot, but you're really, like, very few people are saving or helping or doing by a sketch, by anything. I don't have a question.

B (13:15)

I just want to say I'm so thrilled she's okay. Yeah.

A (13:19)

So thank you.

B (13:21)

I think, you know, I often wonder about this, and I think so many people do so many kind things that go unnoticed. I think I'm more noticed than others because there's a book and, you know, it's talked about, but I think, you know, there's so much courage and kindness in this world that we don't see that goes on like a river quietly passing us by. So while I'm thrilled to be doing my bit, I think you know so many. Do you know, I've got friends who are nurses and they're largely unthanked and. Yeah, so it goes on.

A (13:53)

When I look at you now, I say, thank God he kept drawing. Thank God he quit. Thank God he could have. There could have been a million different times. But when you trace it back. And I was thinking about when you said your mom passed. I was imagining you as a little boy growing up in this little rural town and doing your thing. Your mom was a stay at home mom. Was she with you? Were you an only child?

B (14:17)

No, I got a sister. Old sister.

A (14:19)

I always ask people this question. I like it. If you were to describe your childhood bedroom, what was on the wal and what was your. Was it neat? Was it messy? Did you have books or no books? Like, what was your room like?

B (14:31)

It was a total mess and I had posters everywhere and I had this big poster of sayings like, a stitch in time saves none and don't count your chickens for the hatch. You know, there were loads. I just remembered this. I'd literally forgotten. It was an amazing poster. There were maybe 50 different. Wow. Sayings, maxims, whatever. They were about life and with a drawing to go with it. So maybe that influenced me. Wow. Just remembered that. It's so weird. And I had my own drawings I used to stick on. Or other people. Yeah. So it was very.

A (15:01)

So you were drawing then as a little.

B (15:03)

Yeah, of course. I remember doing a terrible thing. We had an old record wooden record player and I remember scratching drawings with a compass on the side of it. I mean, what my parents must have.

A (15:13)

Thought, you know, when you were going through life, obviously you're creative and a lot of parents want their children to do something that will at least pay their bills and get insurance. When you were going on and you were where your parents kind of hell bent on you doing something practical, you.

B (15:31)

Know, my parents were actually amazing because they could easily have got quite serious about it and said, this is not a good career choice.

B (15:40)

But no, I think my dad always used to say, listen, I didn't enjoy my work. It was a means to an end. If you can find something that you love, then do it.

A (15:50)

Wow, that was very forward.

B (15:53)

I mean. And my mum. Yeah, my mum. Yeah. There was no. And I think they like to see what I drew, but there was never a suggestion that you could Make a living doing that.

A (16:03)

They were just like, oh, good for you, Charlie.

B (16:04)

All right. I'm sure at some point you'll be an estate agent or whatever it is you hope, but yeah, it's funny, isn't it?

A (16:11)

So college was in your. It was originally in your little mini plan. You went for a little bit, for a minute or two.

B (16:18)

I didn't last very long. You know, I kept trying and then. And then leaving. What was it about it? I just felt like I had something to do and I wasn't sure what it was, but I didn't want other things to get in the way.

A (16:30)

Okay.

B (16:32)

So I kept going back and drawing and drawing. And then even at art college it was a bit militant and particularly where I was in London, that, you know, figurative drawing was definitely not the thing you should be doing. You know, do something, cut things up or be abstract. So I kept leaving. And then. Try to listen. I think a lot of me is just try to listen. What it was I had to do to yourself. Yeah. Or the deepest part of me. Just try to respect what you feel needs to be done and respect it rather than being told what you should be doing. And so I guess I did. And, you know, I still didn't know. And I think it's very important for us to give ourselves time to listen and to respect ourselves enough to get an instinct, a sort of an unction of something. But it takes time.

B (17:30)

It's not loud. It's obviously drowned by life. And paying the bills, isn't it?

A (17:36)

How did you pay your bills when you were.

B (17:39)

Okay, so I worked on building sites and I was in London. I remember getting. I didn't do anything. I was a waiter. I did everything, so.

A (17:45)

Waiter, building sites.

B (17:46)

Yeah. And I must have done so many jobs.

A (17:50)

What was your least favorite?

B (17:53)

That's a really good question. I was a hospital porter for a while in the Royal Master. And I don't think I didn't disliked any of them.

A (17:59)

Yeah, I bet because you were around.

B (18:00)

People you probably liked that enjoyed whatever it was. It was funny. And some of the building site work I did made my hands so sore that at night I couldn't draw. I remember my hands shaking, thinking, okay, I should not. I should. I should do something else. Because I was trying to make drawings all the time, but I was mixing it up.

B (18:21)

So I made choices, trying not to damage my right hand because I realized that it was an important thing to keep, so.

A (18:28)

So you were just probably barely making it, given the trees.

B (18:32)

Yeah.

A (18:32)

And then.

B (18:33)

And. But I was also Selling drawings. I did. There were days when I sat in London drawing streets and buildings and people would say, look at them. I mean, I had bad moments. Like, I remember a lady coming up to me with her two children to look. And they looked at for a while and they walked away. And I heard her say to her kids, that's what happened to you if you don't do your homework. So there were low points because I thought they were going to say something nice. But there are other moments where people come by and go, hey, that. You know, are you selling that? And then so I started making a living.

A (19:09)

Oh, selling your.

B (19:10)

Selling drawings to strangers on the street. Literally. That's how I was there.

A (19:13)

And you traveled. I mean, I love that you went to New Orleans. That's my city.

B (19:17)

I did huge.

A (19:18)

What was that?

B (19:18)

Drawings. Jazz clubs. And I was in New York for a while doing drawings. I worked with a gallery in Green Street. They did stuff with me. I loved my time in America. Yeah.

A (19:31)

Bit by bit.

B (19:31)

And I did. There's a gallery that showed me working. They put me in this old house in Greenwich, it's the Gimbel estate house. And there were so many people in there from Manhattan going out there to do special effects in the rooms. And I was one of them. And I was like a 25 year old English person that didn't know anyone. And it was amazing. They were so kind to me and they were, you know, in that time in New York, it was pretty wild. Yeah, yeah. You know, it wasn't. It was. And I was getting a ride out in the truck with them from staying on the floor in Manhattan out to Greenwich. And then this lady came who was the press officer, I think, for what was going on. And she looked at me and she said, who are you? And I said, I'm Charlie. She said, so where do you stay? And I said, just on a floor in Manhattan. You're in Manhattan? I said, yeah.

B (20:23)

Okay. So you want to come stay with us? And I said, yeah, okay, sure. Okay, I'll pick you up at 5.

A (20:29)

Are you kidding?

B (20:30)

No. So she's called Pam Miller and she has a store in Greenwich and she had foster children and parrots and she had a station wagon and she had a store in Greenwich. And she. She basically looked after me. Wow. Yeah. And. And made sure I had, you know, clean socks and I had enough paper to draw. And then she was one of these people in your life that come along and just a solid wow. She was an absolute solid wow. And her kids were in the Greenwich fire. Brigade. Oh, they were. Yeah. And I remember going with them one night when they had to get a cat out of a tree. You know, it was great. And so America was huge for me.

A (21:10)

Whatever happened to Pam?

B (21:11)

She's someone you know. She died recently.

A (21:13)

Oh, did she?

B (21:14)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was amazing. Wow.

A (21:20)

More to come with Charlie Macassee. Stay with us.

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B (22:02)

Zoe. This thing weighs a ton. Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man.

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B (22:06)

Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you, Bridges.

A (22:08)

I'm not. Of course he did. Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list. And elf, I'm six three.

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A (23:19)

So you take your tour through America. You're making a living doing what you love.

B (23:24)

Yes, I was making a living. I had galleries who represented me. Yeah.

A (23:27)

So then what, you went back to England? Is that what happened?

B (23:29)

And I took drawings back to England. I showed in Manhattan as well. Oh, wow. I was just living on. Just on a daily basis, wondering what was going to happen next with. No, I'm not good at making plans. I mean, I. Yeah. I don't never know what I'm going to really do tomorrow, seriously. Or what I'm going to eat. I've always been sort of, see how the day unfolds, see what it presents to you, respond to it. And so I was waiting for the next thing to happen. And, you know, that's how I live for a long time. Doing paintings, doing shows.

B (24:01)

Yeah. Until one day I remember feeling that, you know, I'd like to use words with drawings, and these characters kind of arrived who were talking to each other. And so I enjoyed the idea of words being with drawings, and that was a whole new thing for me.

A (24:20)

Wow. Was your style always the way it is now?

B (24:22)

No, no, no.

A (24:23)

I was different.

B (24:24)

No, got it. Yeah. It was different from big. I did bronzes. Big bronzes and big oil paintings. And, you know, I went through pretty much everything. But what I like about the ink is that you can write words and draw and they're part of the same image.

A (24:38)

Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever fall in love along the way?

B (24:41)

Oh, yeah, many times. Yeah. I had an American girlfriend that, in the end, she thought it wasn't. You know, I was always in London a lot of the time, so I understood. And then I was in love with an Australian girl, and she. Again, she went back to Australia and married someone else. So I think I've had a sort of. You've been. I've made many attempts. Yes.

A (25:05)

Well put.

B (25:06)

And I think, you know, I think also my life, you know, has not presented itself as particularly what I would call.

B (25:16)

Secure. You know, if you live like I have done and you're making drawings and by the skin of your teeth. Right. So it's not. I wouldn't say it's a particularly attractive thing to join with. And so I totally understand. And, you know, when you went back.

A (25:32)

To England and you were. When did you get some steady work? Sounds like a strange word, but a way you could. You knew you were gonna get a paycheck.

B (25:40)

Yeah, There was never a paycheck. It has never been so. But there was a time, I remember thinking, when I was doing shows and I did my own solo exhibitions in London, where I thought, okay, I can. Like, maybe I can get the money together to buy somewhere to live. And then once I did.

B (25:58)

You kind of go, yeah, okay, this is my kitchen.

A (26:02)

Right.

B (26:03)

And I have some mugs and my own bed and some mugs, you know, like. I know, but you have the basics. Yes. And you can invite people around and say, do you want a cup of tea? Wow. And so, yeah, that happened in the. I suppose in 2000. 2000.

A (26:21)

And then when you started, wasn't there a newspaper you were drawing cartoons for?

B (26:25)

I did for this. Yeah. For a couple of. Yeah, I did for them. But again, that was me just kind of having fun doing the thing. Cartoons were a way of making people laugh. But I always felt there was something.

A (26:35)

Something bigger, something that I had to do.

B (26:38)

And I was again waiting and listening and what is it? What is it? And then, you know, these characters. If someone had said, you have to make something that changes people. People's view of themselves and gives them encouragement and helps men to realize that asking for help is brave, I don't think I'd have chosen a mole.

B (26:59)

You know.

B (27:01)

Or a little boy with an angry fox quite how this came about. And this gentle big horse has been something again that unfolded over time, you know, And I used to post them on Instagram. And it was first. You know, I remember doing the first one, the boy with the mole and the mole saying, what do you want to be when you grow up? And kind of all those drawings, I wasn't sure whether they would continue or whether they would make a book, but I remember engaging with people online saying, you know, if they said this helped me, I will. Oh, good, I'm glad. Or the military saying, we use it. Please do. And it wasn't for a couple of years.

B (27:38)

That I thought about it. And then I met someone from Penguin Publishing who said, I think you could do a book. Yeah, you know, But I still was still unclear. Wow. Not sure. I said, is there a story here? Yeah, you know, so it took a while.

B (27:56)

But, you know, I think I'm much more responsive when I meet someone like you or someone in the street or whatever, who says, yeah, you know, like the other. Well, three or four years ago, I met someone who said to me that. She said, after the first book came out, she said. She said, I work with very. With kids who have very tough backgrounds, and you gave my boys permission to be kind and to talk about their own feelings without thinking it was a weakness.

B (28:30)

And I looked at her, and it was out of the blue, and I just. She was. She was sort of welling up because she said, you know, it's you know, and then she said, make another one. Well, hurry up.

B (28:47)

And then actually, oddly, I've had an email from someone being. Emailing someone recently.

B (28:52)

In. In Brooklyn who works again with. With young people who've come from extremely trying and difficult backgrounds. And they cut. Been cutting the book up and drawing on it. They've been engaging with the characters and it's been helping them emotionally learn how to engage, how to be vulnerable, all these things. And she writes emails and it's like, it blows my mind, you know, that these people, you know, I'm trying to arrange to meet, but she's had. On my trip here, she's gone away. But the feeling that you kind of made something that can help people navigate through a difficult life and respect their own voice and to say how they feel and also to learn about what vulnerability is, what kindness looks like, you know, it's a really. For me, it blows my mind. And so, you know, with this, the book that I've just done, I would never have made it because I felt I should. I would never made it because the publisher said, okay, no, because it has to have its own desire, its own voice, its own instinct. It has to need to exist. And up till, you know. So for a long time I kept thinking, well, I've done all these drawings during lockdown, and they were published, I would say, on Instagram. On my Instagram. And that's probably enough. Do we need to print these things? And does it need to become something physical? And then I realized that it did because so many people say, I hold. I hold it. That's it. Wow.

A (30:32)

Yeah.

B (30:33)

It's a weight that I feel in my hand and I take it with me. Whether it's a kid who's struggling at school or a nurse or someone in an old people's home. They've all said this thing about they hold it and they draw in a. Write in it, or underline things. So I did at some point go, okay, let. Let's do this. There is something here now that I think has weight, and therefore I will do it.

A (31:00)

There's one line in there and I'm misquoting it. But it was something like, yelling at a flower isn't gonna help you, but that's it. It's like, I feel like we're all racing. Why isn't this happening soon enough? This should have already been happening, but what you just said was so profound.

B (31:14)

And why isn't it happening in myself? Why am I still like this?

A (31:17)

Why do I still feel like this?

B (31:19)

Why do I. It's the same old, same old. Beat myself up and, you know, and I planted a lot of trees in the last few years in the fields that I bought. And I'm trying to grow a huge forest, really. But, you know, I. Sometimes that drawing came up because I used to stare at these things and go, please, why are you growing? Why are you taking.

A (31:40)

So.

A (31:42)

Why did you want to have a forest?

B (31:45)

Because I feel that it's a very good thing to do if you can just. For biodiversity, for wildlife, for everything, for the planet, for, you know, everything. So I. And I love trees, and I like seeing butterflies and bees and all these creatures that have now come there. So, you know, it's a dream, and it's a very slow dream. But I did that because I recognized not only was I impatient with the growth of young trees, but I was impatient with myself in so many ways. And it doesn't achieve anything.

A (32:21)

Anything. Anything.

A (32:25)

More ahead with Charlie mcassy. Stay with us.

B (32:36)

Hey, guys. Back at the playground again, huh?

A (32:39)

Yep. You know what this playground could use? A wine country. Heck, yeah.

B (32:44)

And some waves so we can go surfing.

A (32:49)

Love that. A redwood forest would be cool. I'm in ski slopes.

B (32:53)

Let's do it.

A (32:54)

Um, 10 a girl go shopping.

B (32:56)

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A (34:09)

How do you still like just for coming here for this interview? We were chilling out. I love you. I was just looking at your book again. They're like, charlie's downstairs. He's taking pictures of artwork. Oh, my And I said, how awesome is that? Because what happens to a lot of people in life, they begin with this soft tenderness and this wild eyed curiosity. And because of schedules and things and life, they lose the wonder. But you didn't, you haven't. You still are talking about bees and art that's downstairs and things that are all around that. I think a lot of people who've reached some level of success and realize there are time limits and don't have anymore. I feel like you walk to the beat of your own drum.

B (34:58)

I try to. I mean, I'm sure there've been times when I've been running around and not having time, but I think.

B (35:05)

Particularly being here that I think I frustrate the lovely people I work with because they're always 45 meters ahead of me. And Laura's over there and she. Because I'm. Oh, I'm taking pictures. Oh, look at this. And in Boston there was outside these buildings that said.

B (35:23)

Things about empathy and things about mercy and things about beautiful things everywhere that I can't not. And thank God for phones. Yeah, right, that you can. And downstairs, oh my gosh, this guy called Jorge, or his name, he painted in the 30s, the whole. All the ceiling. Have you.

A (35:46)

Ceiling is.

B (35:47)

I mean, I was just overwhelmed thinking I'm gonna be late for you because it was just so staggeringly brilliant.

A (35:52)

And we were talking in here about how we walk underneath that daily and don't look up. That's the difference. Like it's a reminder.

B (36:00)

Well, there's a wonderful security lady downstairs called Taylor and she saw me and she said, she said look at the. And so we, she shared her excitement and told me about the painter. And of course, you know, I think is, you know, I, for whatever reason, I think I have more awe and wonder now than I ever did. I don't know why that is for people. You know, I think people have, have shown me just, just how beautiful they are mainly on the inside. And, and I guess listening to people over the years, you know, I've learned so much from them and I think sometimes we feel we haven't got that much more to learn. And then you open up your mind like as you do and, and, and listen.

A (36:48)

Yeah.

B (36:49)

And you know, even on a train, on the train from Boston to Manhattan met this incredible. He fought in Vietnam, he had me in tears. His wife thought he was ridiculous. They were wonderful people and I could just listen to them all day, you know, and I've got the email address and hopefully we'll see them again. But I think for me, the wonder makes you open and it makes you curious. And curiosity is such an important thing because there's so much to experience. And you don't have to go to another country. It can just be in the corner. And how. How does this. Why is this plant lying on its side? And is it happy about that? Do you know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? So I enjoy it, and I enjoy being with friends, children who have the same response. You know, it's amazing.

A (37:40)

How do you. We're talking about a lot of people with loss. How do you fill the holes in your life where loss has been? What do you. What have you done with your.

B (37:49)

It's a really good question. I mean, I've lost quite a few good friends in the last five years as well, so. And I saw a photograph the other day of us in a gallery of five of us, and there are only two of us left. And I think to myself, firstly, that grief. Grief is a strange thing, and it has a life of its own. And I think you have to give it time and allow grief.

B (38:17)

To move through you. And it's like a glacier that drags itself through, or it's like it's lost love that moves like water through a rock. I feel that it's slow, but it manifests itself in such extremely different and varied ways on a daily basis. And for me to recognize sometimes what that is. If you've lost someone and you're feeling angry, I think anger is such a huge part of grief. Feeling numb is another one, and feeling utterly lost. And I think it's like a venom that does its own thing to you. You never know what it's gonna do next. So for me, you know, to fill a void. I don't think you can ever just fill a void. The space someone has left. That space, I think, will always be there. It's like pulling up a tree. There will always be this, where it was. But I think, you know, we have to allow the pain, that it will always be that. We have to work out how to live with it and be hopeful and. And never deny what we feel, but also engage with life and the new and possibility and what could. Could arrive. Because at the end of the day, I remember saying to Barney, who is dying, well, I'm not far behind you. It's not. None of us get out of here alive. So I think we have to try to.

B (39:47)

It's that duality of grieving and also moving forward when it's the right time, but never forcing it either. And you and I are different. You and I will process. Every relationship is different, so every grief is different.

B (40:02)

And I, and I'm saying all this like, I know I don't. I'm genuinely about most things, pretty clueless. And people say, oh, he's done a book, you know, you'd be so wise. I'm not wise. In many ways, I think I see myself as, you know, I'm not on one side of the river saying, this is how you manage grief. I'm saying I'm on the same side of the river as everybody else. And how are we gonna. How do we do this together? And I think what I've learned most is doing things together is such a beautiful thing. And I was a very independent soul for a lot of my life. Working alone. Da, da, da. And the more I've lived, the more I've cherished interdependence rather than independence, shared vulnerability, daring to say, this is who I really am and not worrying about it, saying, I'm in agony. Today I cried all night at the loss of my dog or I'd had a dream about mum and she was, you know, all these things you are so important to.

B (41:04)

To share and not be ashamed of. The number of people when they say to me and they start telling me their story and they start crying and the first thing they say, oh, gosh, I'm so sorry. Like, why are you sorry? Like, crying tears are a beautiful thing. They're such an important part of existence, you know, and they fall for a reason. And they're your strength. And I said in the first book, they're tears are strength. And why am I saying all this? Because I think it's. I don't know, because it's important.

B (41:35)

Right?

A (41:35)

Yeah.

B (41:36)

And connection's important and to see common ground is important. There's more that we share with each other than what you know. We have so much to unite us in this life and we're all to say underneath it, all we want is to love and be loved and to exist and have a roof over our heads. Just the basics. Basics deep down. And to belong. To belong, right? That longing for belonging we all have. And I just hope that, you know, this world recognizes at some point that it's much easier to be friends than enemies. It's much more tiring to be an enemy. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. It's exhausting.

A (42:19)

Your book, which I have, and of course like many dog eared and saved places and you hate to do it, it's art. You're like. And I'm gonna. Literally, when I say it, I'm like, sorry, sorry, sorry.

B (42:30)

Have you bent some pages?

A (42:31)

Of course. Always remember, it's called I bent. Let's see a bunch of them. But this is. I love the river one. I love.

B (42:37)

Oh, do you?

A (42:39)

Oh, I love this. You know what?

B (42:40)

That's interesting. You love that one. I was always. Should I put this in? Should I wrestle with it?

A (42:45)

Here's the one. I don't think even the river knows where it's going until it reaches the sea.

B (42:50)

Right?

A (42:51)

Because it's like when you said, I'm not sure what I'm doing tomorrow. I don't know. And, you know, I'm kind of on this new adventure, trying to, you know, start this business new in life. And I don't know where the next steps are, but I know it's flowing like, you know. You know, the row, row, row your boat. It's like gently downstream, gently down the stream. I feel like I've been rowing upstream for so long, and I was like, wait, I'm tired. Hold on.

B (43:17)

So down is a really huge word.

A (43:19)

And gently and gently down. And merrily, merrily, merrily. It's all there. But that's why, I mean, I have a lot of them here.

B (43:29)

Oh, the one about the. Let the river take you.

A (43:31)

Let the river take you.

B (43:32)

Yeah. I love that, by the way. See, you see more in it than I do. You know, there's a drawing that I, you know, you're telling me what you've seen, and I hadn't seen that. Wow.

A (43:41)

By the way, is being such a student of, like, your emotions and yourself, is that from. Because I want to be more of that, but is that just from. Honestly, from listening to people and their stories, is that how you come to understanding? Cause I think. I mean, listening to me is the whole thing. You keep saying, why don't we all. We're all the same. But I guess nobody's listening anymore.

B (44:05)

I think we are. Have the same basic, but we're also utterly unique. It's that strange idea that we're not all the same. But I think we have very simple and unified desires.

B (44:20)

But the uniqueness makes us fascinating, you know, and if you really, you know, we have a point of view. We don't have a view of existence. We only have this tiny point of view. And you have a point of view, but your point of view will differ. But it's fascinating.

B (44:38)

And even when we disagree with something, we can disagree well, and love each other. The same. And so I'm fascinated by what people think, and I don't feel the need to tell them that they're wrong. Right. I just want to know what they. How they feel. And, you know, like, I. I remember I. I was in, of all places, Botswana, right? In. Yeah. In southern Africa. And I was a long journey, but I ended up in the Kalahari Desert staying in a mud hut. It wasn't even a mud. It was made of twigs. With Bushmen. Right? This is. This one. I was traveling when I was in my 20s, and I was with a guy who was also traveling. He was a lovely African guy. We were similar ages, and we'd got a lift on a government supply truck to go and see these Bushmen, right? And he had been raised in a village, a bigger village, with his African family. And they were. They were amazing. And I met them. And anyway, there was a moment for us where I think one of us broke wind or something. Something happened, right? And he was. We were both laughing at each other, and we got hysterics. And I was looking at him, and then he went really quiet.

B (45:59)

And he was looking at me, and I said, are you okay? He just said, we're just the same, aren't we?

B (46:07)

And it was like this, like, time. It was. I will never forget it because we came from different continents, different colors, different experiences, the most different you can imagine, right? And we. I said, yeah. He said, this is incredible. I never knew. I never knew. I never knew this.

A (46:26)

Oh, my God.

B (46:27)

Right? And I think from then on, I think that propelled me into thinking, well, you know. But he was like. We would talk often for long periods time, about his upbringing and what it was like and to not have a bank account, not have anything. How did that feel? And yet he was so hopeful. His family, you know, and all around that village, people were dying of AIDS and cerebral malaria, you name it. But he had this thing, this. And I was like, what have you got that so many people I know do not have? Yeah. And so, for me, when people reveal what's inside of them, it never continues to fascinate me. And also how they navigate life. How do you do this? So I think when I'm thinking of books, I think of conversations that I've had with people that I've learned from, and they didn't even know I was learning from them. I think we have so much to learn from each other in conversation. If we just ask questions, really, how do you get through? How do you manage? What happened when you lost your mum?

A (47:29)

Yeah.

B (47:30)

How did it feel? How do you make ends meet? Do you ever. Are you ever frightened? Are you frightened of what's happening with the world? And if we engage more and more, the more we connect, I think because we discover our vulnerability. I think if we all knew each other's vulnerabilities, like walking down the street, Manhattan, you see some pretty tough people, but underneath it all, that's just a. That's just a facade. Yeah.

A (47:56)

Walking around like that, just like at your book signing, when they walk.

B (47:58)

There you go and you can see it.

A (48:00)

Well, I'm gonna encourage. Not that we need it, but let's encourage people to pick this book up. It is so beautiful. I loved your first one. I hate to say that. I love your second baby more, but I think I love your second baby more. This one. It's called Always Remember the Boy, the Mole, the Fox, the Horse and the storm by Charlie McAfee. Charlie, I love you. Thank you for coming to see me.

B (48:20)

Oh, I do too. It's funny, you say just one thing, you say the title and that's took a while to arrive. Oh, did it? But I Woke up in the Middle of the Night column who helps me sew the books together. His wife was very sick and they live in Ireland. So I went to Ireland for February and March and I stayed in a hotel and she was having chemo. He was really, you know, two little girls and I was not sure you know, what to call it. And there were various ideas and. And I woke up at three in the morning going. Thinking of my mum and how she would always go before school. Always remember we love you. And always remember you are here. And always remember and remember who you are. Because it's so crucial in these times of uncertainty to remember who we are, that we're loved, who we are, that we matter. When everything's flying around and you never know what's going to happen next, keep your center steady, you know, in your journey, what you're doing now, you keep that. Remember who you are, that you're loved and you're important, you matter and you bring to this world things no one else can. That's the truth of it. And that's what kept him going, was him remembering that. So it's really my mum looking at me in the eye, doing up my buttons. You know, when I was five, going, oh, remember this, you can come back. We love you.

B (49:46)

Anyway. So that was why when you said the title, it hit me, I thought, oh, you haven't talked about that.

A (49:51)

Well, we love you, too.

A (49:57)

Hey guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Allison Berger and Mitch Rissmiller along with Kate Saunders. Our Associate Audio Engineer is Juliana Masterilli. Our audio engineers are Matt Tierney and Joe Plord. Original music by John Estes. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our Executive producer. Libby Least is the Executive Vice President of Today and the Lifestyle.

A (50:48)

They say if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. At Amica Insurance, we're built for our customers and prioritize your needs. Amica empathy is our best policy. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.