Dan Harris On The Life-Changing Power of Meditation

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Dan Harris On The Life-Changing Power of Meditation"

Making Space with Hoda Kotb
Host: Hoda Kotb, TODAY
Guest: Dan Harris
Episode Release Date: June 4, 2025

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Introduction: Meeting in Parallel

Hoda Kotb opens the episode by expressing her anticipation for the conversation, feeling that her and Dan Harris's life paths run parallel. The discussion begins shortly after.

Dan Harris's Journey from Journalism to Wellness

Background in Journalism
Dan Harris, a seasoned TV news journalist with 21 years at ABC News, shares his extensive experience covering intensive events like war zones and hurricanes. Despite a seemingly successful career, Dan struggled internally with anxiety, depression, and addiction. This internal battle culminated in a live panic attack on air, prompting him to reevaluate his life and career path.

Notable Quote:
"Have you ever met somebody and then you realized, hang on a second, their path is almost parallel to mine, except they are ever so slightly ahead of me, time wise."
— Dan Harris [00:51]

From Crisis to Transformation

The Live Panic Attack
Dan recounts the pivotal moment when his panic attack occurred during a live broadcast, leading him to step away from television and explore the wellness space. This shift marked the beginning of his journey toward mental health and self-discovery.

Writing "10% Happier"
In 2014, Dan authored "10% Happier," a best-selling book that demystifies meditation and self-help practices without over-promising results. The book's success led to a popular podcast and meditation app, solidifying his role as a wellness advocate.

Notable Quote:
"I was quietly struggling with anxiety, depression and addiction. I masked it well on the air until one day I suffered a panic attack on live TV."
— Dan Harris [00:51]

Early Life and Personal Struggles

Childhood Upbringing
Dan describes his comfortable upbringing in a leafy Boston suburb with academic physician parents. While home was a safe haven, he faced challenges outside, including bullying and societal expectations of masculinity.

Education and Early Career
Initially aspiring to the glamorous field of filmmaking, Dan quickly realized his true passion lay in journalism after excelling in a documentary class. His dedication led him from local news in Maine to prominent roles in major cities like Boston and New York.

Notable Quote:
"I had all the advantages one can have in life. My parents loved each other, loved us. They were super supportive."
— Dan Harris [04:34]

Challenges in the Spotlight

Struggles with Addiction and Mental Health
Despite outward success, Dan battled anxiety and later turned to cocaine in his early 30s as a misguided attempt to self-medicate after returning from covering conflicts abroad. This period was marked by increased depression and attempts to seek solace in recreational drugs.

The Extent of His Addiction
Dan clarifies that his cocaine use was intermittent and not pervasive, contrasting it with the moment he had his infamous panic attack on live TV.

Notable Quote:
"I have lifelong anxiety too. But I also got really, really liked the idea of breaking the law, breaking the rules."
— Dan Harris [06:19]

The Turning Point: Embracing Meditation

Discovering Meditation
After his panic attack, Dan sought therapy and became deeply interested in meditation. His exploration led to the creation of "10% Happier," which emphasizes incremental progress toward happiness rather than guaranteed bliss.

Impact of Meditation
Dan explains that meditation profoundly changed his relationship with his thoughts and himself, promoting lighter interactions and improved relationships. He advocates for a non-dogmatic approach, encouraging individuals to find what works best for their personal growth.

Notable Quote:
"The quality of your relationships. That's it. Why? Because stress is what kills us. And the best way to regulate your stress is to have positive relationships."
— Dan Harris [40:16]

Personal Growth and Future Projects

Continuous Self-Improvement
Dan shares insights from his next book, "Me A Love Story," which delves into self-love as a skill developed through his experiences and peer feedback. He emphasizes the ongoing nature of personal development and the importance of building meaningful relationships.

Advice for Hoda and Listeners
Encouraging Hoda and listeners to follow their curiosity, Dan underscores the significance of building a loyal audience and nurturing social fitness—the quality of relationships—as a cornerstone for happiness and success.

Notable Quote:
"Meditation, therapy, relationships. That I think is actually probably the most important thing. Sleep, exercise, diet, like, the whole package."
— Dan Harris [19:42]

Conclusion: Embracing Change and Making Space

Hoda's Reflection
Hoda shares her own journey of transitioning out of her role, finding balance, and prioritizing social interactions to fill the gaps left by her previous structured schedule. She echoes Dan's sentiments on the importance of relationships and personal fulfillment.

Final Thoughts
The episode concludes with both hosts acknowledging the universal quest for meaning and the importance of recognizing and nurturing what truly brings happiness and satisfaction in life.

Notable Quote:
"You have to figure it out for yourself."
— Dan Harris [44:17]

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Key Takeaways

• Personal Crisis as a Catalyst: Dan's live panic attack served as a turning point, steering him from a high-profile journalism career to wellness and meditation.

• Incremental Progress Over Perfection: "10% Happier" advocates for small, consistent steps toward improving one's mental well-being rather than seeking immediate or absolute happiness.

• The Power of Meditation: Meditation transformed Dan's relationship with his thoughts and himself, highlighting its cumulative benefits in managing stress and enhancing relationships.

• Importance of Relationships: Building and maintaining quality relationships is paramount for regulating stress and achieving long-term happiness and success.

• Continuous Self-Improvement: Personal growth is an ongoing journey, emphasizing the need for self-awareness, adaptability, and nurturing social connections.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "Have you ever met somebody and then you realized, hang on a second, their path is almost parallel to mine..." — Dan Harris [00:51]

• "I have all the advantages one can have in life. My parents loved each other, loved us..." — Dan Harris [04:34]

• "The quality of your relationships. That's it. Why? Because stress is what kills us..." — Dan Harris [40:16]

• "You have to figure it out for yourself." — Dan Harris [44:17]

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This episode offers profound insights into navigating personal crises, the transformative power of meditation, and the enduring importance of meaningful relationships. Dan Harris's candid discussion serves as an inspiration for anyone seeking to make space for growth and change in their own lives.

Transcript

[Hoda Kotb]

When life brings the blah, add more yabba dabba doo with some tasty fruity Pebbles. Early morning meeting, blah. Someone brought the Pebbles. Yabba dabba doo. Run errands, blah. Head to the store for Pebbles. Yabba dabba doo. Fruity Pebbles, less blah, more yabba dabba doo. Pick up pebble cereal today. Yabba dabba doo. And the Flintstones and all related characters and elements copyright and trademark Hanna Barbera.

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[Dan Harris]

Have you ever met somebody and then you realized, hang on a second, their path is almost parallel to mine, except they are ever so slightly ahead of me, time wise. And then you just want to know more, you want to ask more, you want to seek more. You have all the questions. Well, that's the deal for me today.

[Hoda Kotb]

So.

[Dan Harris]

Dan Harris was a TV news journalist who covered everything from war zones to hurricanes to daily topics. He devoted a lot of his life to journalism. And then he felt a calling to explore the wellness space. Does that sound familiar? Oh, yeah, it does. Dan spent 21 years on network news. From a career standpoint, he had it all. But on the inside, it was a very different story. Dan was quietly struggling with anxiety, depression and addiction. He masked it well on the air until one day he suffered a panic attack on live tv. And that was the moment everything shifted. Dan ultimately decided to step away from television to explore a different path, one of wellness and treatment. He then wrote the best selling book 10% Happier, which has since become a hit podcast. The success, a testament to his commitment to not over promise happiness, but instead offering guidance on how to get just 10% closer to happy. Dan joins me today in a very introspective and raw way. He'll share what he's learned from stepping away and leaning in. I've got my pen and paper ready and I hope you do too. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space.

[Hoda Kotb]

So I've been waiting for this interview for a while because I feel like you and I are living parallel lives.

[Dan Harris]

You're way ahead of me, but I'm on your track. And I just wanted to ask, like.

[Hoda Kotb]

Initially when you made the leap from ABC to this whole new world in wellness, were you terrified midair or did you know, like, okay, I know exactly where I'm going and I know why.

[Dan Harris]

I'M still terrified every day.

[Hoda Kotb]

Are you?

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. I mean, there's a great quote from. I'm forgetting her name. She's a female painter who said she's been terrified every day of her life, but she never let that stop her from doing anything.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh.

[Dan Harris]

And that, you know, I live with anxiety and panic disorder, and it is a big part of my life, and I do all the I want to do.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's how you do it.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. You just have to do it anyway.

[Hoda Kotb]

You just got to do it anyway.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

Just.

[Hoda Kotb]

I want you to take me back because I knew you from turning on the TV and looking at the competition on abc, and there you always were. Was journalism your thing since you were young?

[Dan Harris]

No, no. I had journalism and the movies mixed up in my mind. When I was young, I thought I wanted to do something glamorous, and I went to film school here at NYU in New York City for a semester. I went to a liberal arts college in Maine, but I took a semester and went to film school and realized very quickly. Quickly I was bad at the movies. I had no real talent for that. But I took a documentary class when I was there, and I got very interested in the news at that point. And then I. As you know, I. It's not that glamorous of a profession, especially at the beginning.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

When I was a local news reporter in Bangor, Maine, right out of college. And then I moved, kept moving south to Portland, Maine, and then Boston and then finally New York. But I loved it. You know, it was an incredible career until I decided to do something else.

[Hoda Kotb]

Until it wasn't. Yeah. For you.

[Dan Harris]

So let's go back a little bit.

[Hoda Kotb]

Further, because I want to know about you before I get into your kind of career path. So when you were just a kid, what was your upbringing like? How would you describe your childhood?

[Dan Harris]

Very cushy, sort of leafy suburb of Boston. And parents were academic physicians, and they're now retired. I had all the advantages one can have in life. My parents loved each other, loved us. They were super support. We were upper middle class.

[Hoda Kotb]

Was it an open kind of house where you could tell your parents when something was bugging and all that stuff?

[Dan Harris]

When I think back, we all have either capital T or small T traumas in our childhood. I definitely don't have any capital T traumas, but to the extent that the world became scary for me, I don't recall it being at home. I recall it being as I move through the world. You know, I'm 53, so growing up in the 70s and 80s. As a boy, there was a lot of bullying and you know, the sort of lesser versions of masculinity that I encountered. And that was where I found the struggles of being alive. But I remember home. It's possible I'm idealizing this, but I remember home as a very comfortable place.

[Hoda Kotb]

Were you an athlete when you were a kid?

[Dan Harris]

I attempted it, but I wasn't very good.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was. Did you have like a high school superlative? Like, how were you viewed in school?

[Dan Harris]

I had a really successful weed business in my freshman year.

Did you really?

Yeah, yeah, I. I was really into music. I really. I played the drums. I still play the drums. I have a 10 year old son, he also plays the drums. So I was the way other kids kind of knew the shortstop for the Milwaukee brewers or whatever. I knew the bass player for, you know, the Minutemen or whatever it was. I was really, really obsessed with indie rock or alternative rock and what about.

[Hoda Kotb]

The selling weed thing? What was going on there?

[Dan Harris]

You know, this was an era where we were not in the helicopter parent era. So we were feral kids, latchkey kids. My parents both worked.

[Hoda Kotb]

Did you the money? Is that why you did it? You wanted to make cash?

[Dan Harris]

I really had a lifelong interest in pushing the limits of. It's funny because I have lifelong anxiety too. But I also got really. I really liked the idea of breaking the law, breaking the rules. And that was what got me interested in covering combat too. Because it felt like you were, you know, you should not be here.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Dan Harris]

You know, and when I first got into covering combat, like, we didn't have rules around. You should wear Kevlar. You should wear a helmet. I didn't wear a helmet. This is embarrassing. I didn't wear a helmet because it didn't look good on tv. So, like, I've always had these two tracks of one being, you know, terrified on the regular and the. And the other track of just being interested in seeing how far it can push things.

[Hoda Kotb]

Did you ever get in trouble for any of the stuff in school?

[Dan Harris]

Did I ever get trouble? Yeah, I got in trouble a little bit, but I got arrested a few times. Yeah. Not for weed, by the way.

[Hoda Kotb]

I thought you were just this total.

[Dan Harris]

Roger straight her kid who got A's.

[Hoda Kotb]

And B's in school and went on to J school.

[Dan Harris]

I did terribly in high school.

[Hoda Kotb]

Did you?

[Dan Harris]

Yes. And I got into college because I cleaned it up toward the end. And also my dad knew the dean of the college where I went. So I had, like, when I say I had all the advantages in life. I really had all the advantages and I try to keep that in mind now. It's something I talk to my son about because he has even more advantages than I did. We talk about Peter Parker's uncle. What? Spider Man's uncle. He said, with great power comes great responsibility. So I don't lecture my son about many things, but this is the one of them. But you. We both, my son and I came out of the right wombs. Like we just got really lucky. And there's responsibility that comes with that. He can choose how he wants to give back. I've made my choices. That's a must. Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So if you didn't do well in high school and you go into college because your dad kind of helps you, how do you do well in college? Like what? Turned it around or did it get turned around?

[Dan Harris]

No, I really did turn it around. I remember that first time I called my dad and told him what my. He was on a business trip in Puerto Rico and I called him because I got my report card from my first semester at Colby College and it was all A's. And he cried because I was such a rotten kid. In high school, I have chills. And I made a decision. I remember exactly where I was. I was driving my crappy Honda Accord. I was a pizza delivery man in the summer between high school and college. And I was driving somewhere and I decided, you know, I'm going to crush it in college.

[Hoda Kotb]

Just like that.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. And I just went for it.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's shocking.

[Dan Harris]

I know.

[Hoda Kotb]

So sometimes you think that if you just make a decision, it can happen. I mean, just like that.

[Dan Harris]

I mean, you have to do the work.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. Got to do the work.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. I didn't know that I was going to get straight A's. I just knew that I was going to apply myself for the first time. Really. And the thing about college is, unlike in high school, you can study what you want. So I was picking the courses that I was interested in. And honestly, if I had worked harder in high school, I might have gone to a different college. So there was a little bit of innate unfairness there.

[Hoda Kotb]

When did you think or when do you think your dad was proudest of you in your life?

[Dan Harris]

That's a really good question. I don't know that moment for sure.

[Hoda Kotb]

I guess I was gonna say that sounds like one of the top.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. Well, I graduated with honors. And that was. Although I graduated with honors, my parents were really excited and when they read out my name for the diploma, they called me David Harrison. They were really pissed. I thought that was funny. My parents were really pissed about that. They were reluctant for me to go into news because they had come up through this sort of buttoned up medical school training. But eventually they got very excited about my being a newsman. They were not happy about me writing a book that talked about cocaine. So that was a dicey moment.

[Hoda Kotb]

When you talk about the drugs. You mentioned high school. You were selling drugs. When did you first use drugs yourself?

[Dan Harris]

You know, it's funny, I sold weed in high school and smoked a little bit of weed in high school, but I actually wasn't, I didn't really. I still don't like marijuana. And so I was not a real drug user at all. Yeah. Between college and my early 30s. So my 20s were really what you think I was before you said Roger.

[Hoda Kotb]

Straight Arrow, like Roger Straight Arrow.

[Dan Harris]

I was Roger Straight arrow in my 20s. I was a local news anchor. And then I got to ABC news in my. At 28.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

And I was a really, I, I was pretty straight edge. I drank a little bit, but nothing really more than that. And then after 9 11, I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, that whole thing. And then I got depressed and started to self medicate with recreation. That's when I did cocaine for the first time.

[Hoda Kotb]

So the depression came from witnessing things overseas or just processing 9 11.

[Dan Harris]

I think the depression really was a kind of addiction to the adrenaline of being overseas and feeling like what could be more exciting? You're. What's the expression commonly attributed to Winston Churchill? There's nothing more thrilling than the bullet that misses you and the bullets all missed. I had a lot of friends who got hit, who either died or got badly injured.

[Hoda Kotb]

So witnessing horrible things, covering horrible things and all of those things, but it was the adrenaline rush of that I would get home.

[Dan Harris]

And even though my life was pretty exciting, I was my early 30s and covering presidential campaigns and all that stuff, everything seemed gray compared to that. I remember one time I was. It was in the middle of the second Intifada, so early aughts and I was kind of cycling back and forth between being in Israel, West Bank, Gaza and being at home. And I came home from one trip and I was irritable. I was getting in fights with my bosses and they actually sent me back because I was a pain in the ass. And I landed in Tel Aviv, I was jet lagged and we went right into the west bank to cover this big protest that was happening. And we covered It. And there were gunshots, and I had to dive into a ditch and. And then I got in the car and we were driving back to the hotel in Jerusalem. We stopped by the side of the road to eat some watermelon, fresh watermelon. And I was eating watermelon, somewhat dazed from the jet lag, and I was like, oh, I feel better.

[Hoda Kotb]

Isn't that so crazy?

[Dan Harris]

It's crazy.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you needed that adrenaline.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's a hard thing to keep. I mean, to keep that level high.

[Dan Harris]

So it's a drug. Yeah, it is a drug in and of itself. And I think a lot of people in our industry get addicted to it, and we see, you know, their private lives can be tumultuous as a result.

[Hoda Kotb]

You weren't married at the time. That was.

[Dan Harris]

No.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, you're.

[Dan Harris]

I was aggressively not married yet.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you're going home, and that's when you decide to try cocaine. Just something to give you that rush, that high.

[Dan Harris]

I felt I had an extended period of time where I felt off, and I was doing all these medical tests. And in hindsight, it's a little funny because I was really convinced I had some sort of physiological problem. I felt terrible all the time. And I was at a party and somebody offered me cocaine. And that had happened before, but I had always said no. I was terrified. I grew up in the just say no era. And I said, yeah, I'll try it. And it made me feel better immediately. But the next morning, it didn't feel good. But in that moment.

[Hoda Kotb]

So that's when the. You started?

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

How bad did it get?

[Dan Harris]

Not that bad, honestly. It wasn't like I wasn't high on the air when I had my now infamous panic attack, but it was kind of ambient use. I would use it on the weekends and not every weekend, because often I was still traveling and covering big events. But, yeah, once in a while, I would use cocaine.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you're using. And the infamous panic attack that you referred to, if people don't know you had been anchoring. So it wasn't like it wasn't your first day. We weren't just. You'd been doing it, but for some reason, on that day when you filled in for Robin Roberts, something inside you just. Something happened.

[Dan Harris]

What.

[Hoda Kotb]

What went down? What happened?

[Dan Harris]

It's crazy. I was at ABC News for 21 years. That's the. The best known thing I ever did. And you will find this, too. I mean, I know we're going to talk about your career transition, which I'm really interested in. I've been out for three and a half years. Like, to the extent that anybody ever comes up and talks to me.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

It's never about the news. Never, Never. That's always about the other stuff.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

It's almost like it didn't happen. Like it happened for me, but, like, it's not part of wow. Consciousness. To the extent that anybody knows who I am, I don't think that's what they think about.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow. Well, I want to get to what they do know you for now.

[Dan Harris]

You really can't change what you're known for. Yeah, absolutely.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

Anybody can change. I mean, for anybody listening who may or may not have a public profile to the extent that that even matters. Like, you can reinvent yourself anytime.

We'll be right back with more from Dan Harris after this.

[Hoda Kotb]

When life brings the blah, add more yabba dabba do with some tasty fruity Pebbles. Early morning meeting, blah. Someone brought the Pebbles. Yabba dabba doo. Run errands. Blah. Head to the store for Pebbles. Yabba dabba doo. Fruity Pebbles. Less blah, more yabba dabba doo. Pick up Pebbles cereal today. Yabba dabba doo in the Flintstones and all related characters and elements Copyright and trademark Hanna Barbera.

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[Hoda Kotb]

So you're a news person for all these years.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tell me about the leap. Why don't we just go there? Tell me about the leap.

[Dan Harris]

Well, it's honestly less courageous than what you're doing because I really was clinging to two things at the same time for a long time. So I wrote a book about meditation in 2014. It's called 10% happier. It basically told the story of me having this panic attack on the air and how I learned that it was the result of cocaine afterwards. And then I did therapy for a couple of years and through that, got interested in meditation. I had a big effect on me. Although I guess that might be belied by the title 10% happier. But I was trying to come up with a title that would counter program against some of the over promising that I see in the self help world. And just for the record, I do believe that 10% compounds annually that there's a mysteriously cumulative nature to meditation and many other forms of self development, self growth, self improvement. So anyway, I wrote this book, came out in 2014 and I did not, Barbara Walters literally told me, don't quit your day job. So I did not think that it was going to do anything. But I had the backing of the biggest media company in the world, Disney, and they promoted the hell out of this book. And the book got really popular and I did not expect that. And it was great. It was really cool. And then I started a podcast and a meditation app and giving speeches and writing more books. It kind of swallowed my life. But I also really loved being a journalist and I had this cool job at the time I was anchoring the weekend editions of Good Morning America. Sort of like the B team. You were on the A team. And I was also anchoring Nightline and they gave me kind of carte blanche to go all over the world and do these investigative stories. And so I really loved that great gig. And I was also afraid of giving it up. So it took seven or eight years of doing two things at once before I ultimately quit.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was the tipping point?

[Dan Harris]

Realizing that I would be financially safe? Oh, I just, I somehow I just came to the realization that what I had built in my side hustle was enough and I could leave and it would, I wouldn't. I do. I do have part of my anxiety and I've learned a little bit more about this in recent years is around finances, even though it's irrational. Like I never had any financial problems in my life. And this is part of my good fortune for which I'm really, really grateful. And yet I have kind of ambient. Yeah, financial fear. I learned a little bit about my family history. I had a great grandfather who was a Russian immigrant and a, a hustler and a con man and got indicted in the 30s and lost everything and took his own life in the family kitchen. And I realized like that kind of that's in my nervous system. And it's really helpful to know that actually. And anyway, so once I kind of realized that I was safe, I made the leap and I went to ABC and I said, can you let me out of my contract and can you also give me my podcast? And there was some back and forth and some negotiation and ultimately they let me go.

[Hoda Kotb]

So I mean, you talk about how profound meditation was I know that people listening have either. Some have tried it, some have heard about it, some say, I can't sit still. I mean, there's a million reasons people don't do it. How profound was the impact it had on you?

[Dan Harris]

Really profound. Yeah. You know, it's. As I said before, it's cumulative. It's not like the first time I did it, I was, you know, transcending or something like that. I also want to be clear. I'm really not dogmatic. I'm. People should do what works for them. And over time, while I started out as the meditation guy, over time on my show and. And in my public pronouncements, I've really moved to, like, all forms of doing life better. You know, meditation therapy, relationships. That I think is actually probably the most important thing. Sleep, exercise, diet, like, the whole package. And I like to present a menu and to be really relaxed and gentle about it. It's hard to form new habits, so I get all of that. And so I'm not trying to make people feel bad about what they're doing in their life now. I would like to say that there is a lot of evidence behind meditation as a modality, and a lot of people have tried it and feel like they can't do it, but that's because we're teaching it wrong often. And actually, pretty much anybody can do it. And you talk about how if you want, but for me, it really. What was profound at the beginning and still now, is to learn to not take my thoughts so seriously and really, by extension, not to take myself so seriously. And that kind of easing up, lightening up has a big impact on how you are with other people, and it changes your relationships, and that's a positive cycle, a virtuous cycle.

[Hoda Kotb]

Anger was something you wanted to get to the root of. You wanted to get rid of that.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

And you went on a silent retreat.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

How many days and what impact did that retreat have on you?

[Dan Harris]

Just to be clear, I don't think you get rid of things, aspects of your personality. I think you just come into a different relationship with it. It's like, all right, so my great grandfather was a con man who took his own life, like. And I have a lot of fear partly as a result of that. There are many other factors. But do I want to exterminate it? No, that will just make it more powerful. Just want to have a. An easy relationship with it so that when it rears its head, I'm not owned by it. And that, I think, is. That's the nuance that I think is really important and helps people ease up. If you're getting tense around things, it's really hard to. And I still do. Like, I have the capacity to be a schmuck in many ways. Hence the 10% happier. You asked something about the silent retreat, like, yeah. So I just want to be clear. I went on this retreat because I knew at this point I was writing a book and I needed some stuff to write about. So I don't think people listening need to feel that meditation necessarily entails a 10 day silent meditation retreat. I was looking for, you know, in our training as TV professionals, we're always looking for the extreme things to do. Having said that, it was transformative for me. I hated it at first. I hated everybody there and I hated everything about it.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you're just not taught. What is it? You're not talking at all.

[Dan Harris]

You talk to the teacher every other day for like 15 minutes, but most of the time you're in total silence with a bunch of weirdos in Marina in County. And it's everything you think it would be.

[Hoda Kotb]

Are you journaling? What are you doing?

[Dan Harris]

You're meditating all day long. I mean, I took a few notes, but you're not. They tell you don't write anything down.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, so you just meditate all day.

[Dan Harris]

That's hardcore. You wake up at like 5 in the morning and first session of seated meditation. Then you do walking meditation. Then there's breakfast and walking and sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting. Maybe some chores like you help out in the kitchen, lunch, walking, sitting, walking, sitting. And then there's like a snack in the evenings and more walking and sitting. And then there's a dharma talk where they talk to you about Buddhism. And then more walking and sitting and walking and sitting until you collapse. Every day, all day.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's just one day you just mentioned.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

And now I do this at least once a year.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So what came out of it? Like, what. What did you discover?

[Dan Harris]

I think it's just a deepening of what we described before that you can. You start to see aspects of like, I'm going to be a little grandiose here. Reality that everything's changing all the time. So we all know that everything's changing all the time. But we don't live our lives as if we know that. And we are shocked when our faces look different in the mirror and when our friends die and when our parents die and when the careers we train for get upended by new technologies. And when you sit and Just all the distractions, you know, the distractions are there. The mind is the mind. All the crazy thoughts come. But over time, the mind gets quieter and quieter, and you just start to see how rapidly everything's moving. Oh, my mind is switching from thinking to feeling back pain to hearing birdsong. And the rapidity gets really clear. Then you can take that into your life. It's like, oh, okay. How can I be in a world that is chaotic and. And cacophonous and changing all the time? And in that process, you start to see your thoughts in a different way. They don't. They're not. As my meditation teacher likes to talk about how our voice, or the voice in our head is often a tiny dictator. You have a thought, oh, I should eat a sleeve of Oreos. Or I should say something that's going to ruin the next 48 hours of my marriage, and you just do it. And over time, with meditation, it's like, oh, yeah, that's a thought, right?

[Hoda Kotb]

A dumb one.

[Dan Harris]

Or that's hunger. But is it boredom beneath it?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Harris]

You know? Or is it loneliness?

[Hoda Kotb]

You go deeper there.

[Dan Harris]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you write this book, and you said it's successful. I mean, that's putting it mildly. Like it was a home run all the way. It's still one of those books that people grab. The meditation piece has been big. So you said people now, instead of knowing you for being on tv, which is you've been in front of people for years and years, they know you more for this.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

Isn't that something?

[Dan Harris]

I'm not saying I'm mobbed on the streets, but to the extent that anybody knows who I am, it's usually this, wow.

[Hoda Kotb]

So redefining isn't so tricky.

[Dan Harris]

I wouldn't say it's not tricky. I would say it is possible.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's possible. Yes. Okay.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah. How are you with it?

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, here's what's. So January 10th was my last day here, and we are however many months we are in now, and I kind of had a similar track to you. Like, I was feeling kind of meh in my 50s, and someone had mentioned trying a Breathworks class. And I was like, I don't know. So well, you just do it on Zoom. It's no big deal. I was like, okay. I was more like an athlete. I like to do sports. And I ate well. I thought, that's good enough. And I laid down and did it with her on Zoom and exploded in tears. And I got up and I was like, oh, my God, what was that like what was that? But it started, like, when you were talking about how one leads to the next. That's what happened, actually.

[Dan Harris]

It started with dissatisfaction.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Dan Harris]

And I think that's.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's.

[Dan Harris]

That's a universal. Right.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

We know somehow something's wrong.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right, Right.

[Dan Harris]

The Buddha is best known, I think unfairly, for having said, life is suffering. But what he actually said was, life is dukkha. D U K K H A. I believe it's spelled and that translated. That's a word from the ancient language of Pali, but it means, actually, technically, the axle of, like, a cart fitting poorly in the hole of the wheel.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh.

[Dan Harris]

So it just means that, like, life is unsatisfying in some way. If you're paying attention, like, what is this? Like, we're all gonna die. Like, I keep getting old. Like, I can't control the outcome. Like, I. This is my body, but, like, why can't I stop my knee from hurting? And.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

So if you're paying attention, often the world thrusts this realization upon you, but if you're paying attention, there's a kind of. And so that can create a yearning. You might call it a spiritual yearning or some psychological yearning. And I hear in your story when you say there was a meh ness in your 50s, like, that was dukkha.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, yeah, there was. I think things were good enough. It was like that. All of the things, relationship work, all the things felt fine, but not right.

[Dan Harris]

And what's amazing is you were on the top of the world.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

You were. You are the CO of the number one or close to number one morning television show in. In the country, and all of the stuff that comes with that, the notoriety, the remuneration, all of that. You have these beautiful, healthy children. You know, by any, quote, unquote, objective standard, you had it all.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

And this is what I think is so universal. I mean, the Buddha himself was a wealthy prince who had it all, but he knew something was off.

[Hoda Kotb]

Something was off.

[Dan Harris]

And then he went off on a search.

[Hoda Kotb]

And it's funny, and I don't know about. You were saying it took seven or eight years to really say. And that was. I understand with the financial thing, it's like, I'm not sure if I can do it. I want to have some security. I had a weird epiphany on my. We did a 60th party out here on my birthday in August. And there was something about that day. I stood up on this stage, all these people came, and, you know, Jenna's dad gave me a Painting. And I was crying, and it was like, all this. And on that day, I was like, today's the day. Like, I knew. I was like, this is it. This is the top of the wave. I know it. I'm not like, could it get hot? Like, I didn't have that. I was like, yep. I went home, slept like a baby. I knew it. On that day, August 9th, I knew it. I didn't articulate it until a little bit later, but I knew it. And I knew it with, like, warm hand on your heart, knowing it. Like, it was real. And I didn't have anything started, like, in terms of. I knew I liked this space so much, and I knew it was transforming me, but I didn't really have, like, a plan for it. So for me to have worked, you know, like you did, it's like, I'm used to a schedule. I'm used to a life. I'm used to travel and meeting people and having instant interactions when I walk in in the morning and not having to find them or seek them out. It's like, of course I'm gonna have a soul to soul convo with Savannah in the makeup room. That's what we do every morning. And then you don't have that. So all these bits and pieces that I had been missing, and when you build something, it's a whole different animal. But here I am now, like, months out, and we're gonna launch something coming up in May, and all of a sudden, it's like, turning me on. All of these modalities and things and people I'm meeting, and I'm finding all these great practitioners who help me. And I was like, you wanna try this? You wanna be part of this? I'm like, okay, what is it? So it's fun to watch it come together, but it's totally scary too, because, like, with any business or with anything, you're like, is it gonna work? Is it not gonna work? Do you have regrets? Do you ever think about. No, not for a second.

[Dan Harris]

Not for a second. I remember one night after I retired, maybe the night of. Or the night after, I woke up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. Cause I'm of a certain age, and I was like, what the did you do? But then I went. Then I was like, crazy, like, I'm fine. You're fine. And I did have some feelings of, like, am I disappearing in some way? And so I. I got interested in trying to do some more TV maybe. But then I was like, no, why am I doing that we're in a different era. You and I grew up in an era where TV was the thing, but that it's not the thing.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right, Right.

[Dan Harris]

And I think when I left, I started to realize this place that I put so much of my self worth and focus. It's, it's a smaller thing than it was when I arrived. And there's a much bigger world out there. And so let's go investigate that.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love that. What advice do you have for me?

[Dan Harris]

I mean, you're, you're doing. From what I can tell, I have a million questions about like, what is the business? And. But for me, it seems like you're doing the right thing. I mean, the, the idea of following your curiosity, that resonates with me because that is exactly what I've done. You know, people want to listen to what you have to say, so where do you want to take them? I think for me, moving out of the broadcast mentality into like building an audience that actually really cares about what I want to talk about and serving them has been transformative.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dan Harris]

I think the thing is build an audience that is really loyal to you.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's really loyal.

[Dan Harris]

Yeah.

More with Dan Harris after the break.

[Hoda Kotb]

When life brings the blah, add more yabba dabba doo with some tasty fruity Pebbles. Early morning meeting. Blah. Someone brought the Pebbles. Yabba dabba doo. Run errands. Blah. Head to the store for Pebbles. Yabba dabba doo. Fruity Pebbles. Less blah. More yabba dabba doo. Pick up Pebbles cereal today. Yabba dabba doo and the Flintstones and all related characters and elements copyright and trademark Hanna Barbera.

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[Hoda Kotb]

For real.

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[Hoda Kotb]

How did all of this change you as a husband? As a father? How are you different?

[Dan Harris]

Well, the fatherhood happened right after the book came Out. And honestly, I mean, I continue to change and grow and make. Make dumb. Dumb. Like, incredibly dumb mistakes. And so I'm. I'm not a perfected being or anything like that. My whole shtick. And I would. I recommend this is, look, I'm just gonna do my life in public, and I'll tell you everything with the goal of being useful to you. Like, I'm gonna try a bunch of things. And there's a term. I did not invent this, and I don't know who did. Cathartic normalization. There's. There's a. You are helping other people by being fully open.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

By using your platform to investigate things that are useful for you and by. The property can be useful for other people. And the existential crisis when I'm in that mode goes away. It's like, all right, I know my job. My job is to be useful and not in a, like, hair, shirt, catastrophic, altruistic way. You know, I have this little tattoo. It's right next to my watch. I can see it. And it's a Buddhist expression. The Buddhists talk a lot about doing things for the benefit of all beings.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

And a. All beings. Like, I'm part of that. So you can pursue. You know, I think self interest and altruism exist in a kind of mutually reinforcing double helix. Like, you can. Hoda can try to build a successful business. That's cool. And that business can be useful to other people. And all that can coexist nicely.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow, I can't believe all you've done since you left abc. I mean, I knew a little bit. I knew the book, and I knew that you were a changed being. I heard that from some sources, but. Wow, this is really, really cool.

[Dan Harris]

Well, I got another big thing for me, and this is actually the next book that I'm writing, although I'm really, like, really far behind. The book was due in 2020, so it's a. I. I'm 11 years out from my first book, and I think the next book probably comes out in like, a year and a half maybe. Okay, okay, okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

Let's see.

[Dan Harris]

I don't know.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

But the. The inciting event, the kickoff event of this next book. So if the first book was the panic attack, the next book is. I got a. Do you know what a 360 review is?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

Okay. So just for anybody at home doesn't know what it is. It's an anonymous survey, often done in a corporate setting, of your boss's peers and direct reports to kind of get A panoramic sense of your strengths and weaknesses. But I added in my wife, my brother and some friends. So 16 total people from ABC News, my startup, which the meditation app that I used to be involved with, and then people from my personal life. And this was in 2018. So four years after the panic attack, I got this 360 review and it was devastating and it completely like I thought I was much further along than I was and I.

[Hoda Kotb]

What did the peer review and the. What did it.

[Dan Harris]

It turned up. It talked about how I was sort of aloof and emotionally unavailable and often dismissive and rushed and over committed.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh wow.

[Dan Harris]

And that I could be sharp with my words. All the things that I learned from my role models in the news industry growing up from the anchor monsters I worked for. And I was bringing that into my work life and my home life. And so I went on a mission to kind of fix all that or to address all that. And three years later I got another 360 was completely different. But I've still had trouble telling the story in the right way. I've struggled with it. And so I'm now seven years out from the 360 and still working on, you know, like there's no arrival at some destination.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, that's cool.

[Dan Harris]

It's always, it's always a working part.

[Hoda Kotb]

What's this book called?

[Dan Harris]

Well, I have a title that I like but nobody else likes it. I like the title, Me A Love Story, which I think is funny.

[Hoda Kotb]

I think that's hilarious.

[Dan Harris]

Yes. But people think then the book is about like narcissism. But actually it's. It's the opposite of narcissism. It's true self love is the opposite of narcissism because you're okay, you're not taking yourself as seriously. You're lighter with your own neuroses and demons and then that changes how you are with other people. And so this is a book that 360 is what led me to really getting interested in love as a skill. So. But just back to you for a second. I know this is your interview, but how are you doing with all of this change?

[Hoda Kotb]

Better. I mean the first in the beginning there was like the honeymoon, which was really fun. It was like I was up, I was taking my kids to school, I had meetings after. It was all a flow and a rhythm.

[Dan Harris]

And then I think, think what I.

[Hoda Kotb]

Was used to over all these years was a place to go structure things that I realized I did enjoy. So I ended up trying to change that too. So I found a little office space in my little towns. When I walk my kids to school now, I can walk to this place, grab a coffee, have a destination to go to. And I think the interaction piece, like, I love building it. I loved hiring. I love all the things we're trying. I love all of the bits and pieces that are coming together. Like, I think it's been super fun.

[Dan Harris]

So you had a spike in your happiness after retirement and then, well, quote, unquote retirement and then a dip. And now that you've got some momentum on this new thing, you feel good?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, it feels good. I feel like I'm working, like, a little bit more than I was before, just because. Trying to reach deadlines and stuff. But I'm learning to, like, book a coffee with somebody, book a lunch. Things I didn't have to do because it was all baked in. Interaction matters to me. And I realized that I really minus meetings. I really wasn't getting it. So that's the piece that's kind of big and missing for me that I've been trying to fill.

[Dan Harris]

I think there's something huge in what you just said, and this, for me, is a big focus in my next book, which is that we are in an era of optimization. Everybody's, like, trying to count their steps and track their sleep on their watch and achieve ketosis and whatever it is, and that's all can be fine. But actually, the most important variable if you want to live forever and be happy and healthy and successful is none of those things. It's the quality of your relationships. That's it. Why? Because stress is what kills us. And the best way to regulate your stress is to have positive relationships. So what you're yearning for there is tune into that. Because if you can be, that's something. Yeah, it's called social fitness. And we worry about our mental and physical fitness, but social fitness is huge. And it fits into all of this. Is of a piece, so. So keep going with that. Book those coffees.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm booking them. I'm booking. Okay. So this podcast is called Making Space. So if you have an entire day, Dan, that's all for you. There's not one thing on your calendar. Nothing to do. Wake up. When your body says wake up, do what the first thing you want to do. Fill your day the way you want. Crash out when you feel like it. How does that day for you unfold?

[Dan Harris]

I mean, that's basically my life now. Honestly, most of my life now is me doing what I want to do to. There are Times when I have some on my calendar that I don't want to do. But most of my days flow in a way that I You love set. It's up to me. Sometimes I say yes to stuff I shouldn't say yes to. But generally speaking I'm doing what I want. So like on a Saturday or Sunday when there's no work things scheduled, I sleep until 7 or something like that. And I usually work first thing in the morning, like just a little because for me my work is what I love. So I usually work for an hour and a half in the morning, like just focusing on my usually this never ending book project I'm clearest first thing in the morning. And then I will sit in meditation for a while on a good day, like 45 minutes, which by the way, you know, five minutes or one minute is good for beginners. But for me I'm really into the practice, so. And then I'll maybe work a little bit again and then I'll work out for a while. I really like to exercise and then I'll have lunch and then the afternoon maybe I'll do more work or do something with my family. And then I really like to have something social at night.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, that's a great day. I love what you said was most profound was I have those days. Yeah, that's it. That's what everybody wants. They want like that day.

[Dan Harris]

And I want to be clear, I'm really aware that this is a privileged position. And again, so how am I going to use this to be of benefit?

[Hoda Kotb]

I interviewed this guy, Sahil Bloom is his name, and he wrote a book about, about kind of this stuff. He told a story and he said, he goes, there's a big investment banker and he goes to some small Mexican fishing village and he walks up and he sees these guys fishing. And he sees a guy who's already got two big fish on his boat. And he says to the guy, hey, how was it? He goes, great. He goes, what are you gonna do now? He goes, oh, I'm done. I caught my fish. Done. He goes, well, now what? He goes, oh, well, I'm gonna go home and have lunch with my wife and probably take a nap and then we're gonna cook these fish up and we're gonna have a little barbecue and then I' go out with my friends and we're going to go dancing. He goes, wow. He goes, okay, cool. He goes, but you know what? You could really crush it here if you wanted. He goes, what do you mean? He goes, well, if you fished for like four more hours. You'd have more fish. You could sell some and have some, and then you could make some money. I was, uhhuh. And then what? He goes and goes, oh, and then, God, think about it.

[Dan Harris]

If you make enough money, you could.

[Hoda Kotb]

Probably buy that boat and you'd have both boats.

[Dan Harris]

You'd be able to make enough money.

[Hoda Kotb]

And have enough fish, and you'd really be, you know, on top of the world. He goes, you could actually own this port.

[Dan Harris]

I'm just watching you.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm just giving you advice. I'm an investment banker. And the guy says, well, and then what? And he goes, look, you could chill out. You could go to some village. And he goes, you mean a fishing village? He goes, and fish when I wanted, eat lunch with my wife, go out with my friends. He goes, buddy, I already got that. And that's what. But we're all striving for the thing we probably had when we were younger. I remember I interviewed Magic Johnson and I said, when were you your happiest? And he goes, I know when I was my happiest. I said, when? He goes, I'm in a college dorm with Cookie because he was dating her even then. And he goes, and we scrounged up nickels and dimes and quarters and we got two slices, two Cokes, and we lit a candle like he was describing the most basic of things. And I thought, man, we're all searching for the thing we have, you know? But anyway, all those things remind me when you said, I have that now. A lot of people probably have some of that and don't realize it.

[Dan Harris]

That's true.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's there.

[Dan Harris]

And I want to acknowledge there are many people who are in economic circumstances that are really uncomfortable. I would say that one question that might be helpful to meditate on is what's enough?

[Hoda Kotb]

That's a great question.

[Dan Harris]

You have to figure it out for yourself.

[Hoda Kotb]

All right, what's enough? Well, and with that, thank you so much, Dan. I appreciate it.

[Dan Harris]

My pleasure.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm so good. This guy's so good.

[Dan Harris]

Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And make sure you tell your friends.

[Hoda Kotb]

Friends.

[Dan Harris]

Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Allison Berger along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Masterilli. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau and Mark Yoshi Zumi. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Least is the executive vice president of Today and Lifestyle.

[Hoda Kotb]

When life brings the blah Add more yabba dabba doo with some tasty fruity Pebbles early morning meeting blah Someone brought the Pebbles Yabba dabba doo Run errands blah Head to the store for Pebbles Yabba dabba do Fruity Pebbles, Les blah More yabba dabba doo Pick up Pebble cereal today Yabba dabba doo in the Flintstones and all related characters and elements Copyright and trademark Hanna Barbera.