Dr. Judith Joseph On Overcoming Hidden Depression and Rediscovering Joy

Summary

Making Space with Hoda Kotb: Dr. Judith Joseph on Overcoming Hidden Depression and Rediscovering Joy

Episode Release Date: May 21, 2025

In this compelling episode of "Making Space with Hoda Kotb," host Hoda Kotb engages in a heartfelt and insightful conversation with Dr. Judith Joseph, a distinguished psychiatrist, researcher, and author. Dr. Joseph shares her profound journey from achieving remarkable academic and professional success to grappling with high functioning depression (HFD) and ultimately rediscovering joy in her life.

---

1. Introducing Dr. Judith Joseph

Dr. Judith Joseph is celebrated for her impressive academic background, including degrees from Duke and Columbia, and her groundbreaking work as the founder of New York City's first female-run clinical research institute. Despite her outward success, Dr. Joseph felt a lingering void, which she identifies as high functioning depression—a condition marked by persistent productivity without experiencing significant distress.

---

2. Understanding High Functioning Depression and Anhedonia

Dr. Joseph delves into the concept of anhedonia, explaining it as "a lack of pleasure and interest in things that you once enjoyed" (04:00). Unlike traditional depression, individuals with HFD may not exhibit overt signs of distress but instead display symptoms like fatigue, poor concentration, and restlessness. This subtle manifestation often leads to the condition being overlooked or misunderstood.

---

3. Dr. Joseph’s Personal Journey

Growing up in Trinidad, Dr. Joseph fondly recalls a childhood filled with community, slower-paced living, and regular visits to the beach. However, relocating to the United States at the age of four brought stark changes, including financial instability and scarcity. She recounts, "On the outside, I looked perfect... but on the inside, if I wasn't busy, I felt restless" (04:25).

To cope with the trauma of scarcity, Dr. Joseph adopted a pathologically productive lifestyle from an early age. This relentless drive to excel masked deeper feelings of inadequacy and led to the erosion of her ability to experience joy.

---

4. Recognizing the Signs of HFD

A pivotal moment in Dr. Joseph's life occurred during the COVID-19 pandemic. While delivering a lecture to a large hospital institution, she felt a profound sense of "meh" and realized she was experiencing symptoms of depression herself. Reflecting, she shares, "I felt so Muted" (19:27). This self-awareness propelled her to investigate HFD further, both personally and professionally.

---

5. The V's Protocol: A Pathway to Joy

In her mission to assist others struggling with HFD, Dr. Joseph introduces the V's protocol, a structured approach to reclaiming joy:

• Validation (29:06): Acknowledging and accepting one's feelings. Dr. Joseph emphasizes the importance of recognizing emotions as the first step towards healing. She likens it to turning on the light in a dark room to see what’s causing anxiety.

• Venting (30:10): Expressing emotions in a healthy manner, whether through conversation, journaling, or creative outlets. She advises seeking emotional consent before sharing deep feelings to avoid overwhelming others.

• Values (31:08): Reconnecting with one's core values and passions. Dr. Joseph shares a personal anecdote about rediscovering her love for reading by picking up Michelle Obama’s Becoming at Barnes & Noble (31:18).

• Vitals (31:31): Prioritizing physical well-being through sleep, nutrition, movement, and maintaining healthy relationships. She underscores that "there's only one you" and stresses the importance of self-care.

• Vision (32:35): Planning and anticipating moments of joy for the future, whether big or small. From savoring a morning coffee to celebrating professional milestones, envisioning joyful moments helps shift focus from past traumas to future aspirations.

---

6. The Role of Connection and Family

Dr. Joseph pays tribute to her mother, whose unwavering optimism and emphasis on connection profoundly influenced her journey. Recalling her mother's wisdom, she shares, "Loneliness is a choice. You can always ask for help" (34:41). This guidance helped Dr. Joseph realize the transformative power of relationships in overcoming HFD and finding joy.

---

7. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Throughout the conversation, both Hoda and Dr. Joseph touch upon imposter syndrome, a pervasive feeling of self-doubt despite evident success. Dr. Joseph notes, "Imposter syndrome is not even a clinical diagnosis, but none of us, especially women, would say that it didn't exist" (15:02). Addressing these internalized fears is crucial in the path to embracing one's true self and achievements.

---

8. Practical Insights for Listeners

Dr. Joseph offers actionable advice for those battling HFD:

• Acknowledge and Validate Emotions: Recognizing feelings without judgment is the foundation of healing.

• Healthy Expression: Choose trusted individuals or creative outlets to vent emotions constructively.

• Reconnect with Values: Identify and engage with activities that genuinely bring joy and fulfillment.

• Prioritize Physical Health: Consistent sleep, balanced nutrition, and regular movement are essential.

• Plan for Joy: Integrate moments of happiness into daily and future plans to foster a positive mindset.

---

9. Conclusion: Embracing Joy Through Connection

As the conversation draws to a close, Dr. Joseph reflects on her current chapter, highlighting the significance of connection in her life. She states, "The happiest moments in my life were times when I felt connected to my siblings, to my daughter, to my team" (35:28). Her journey underscores the importance of making space for joy by addressing hidden depression and fostering meaningful relationships.

Dr. Joseph's new book, High Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy, encapsulates her research and personal experiences, offering a beacon of hope for those navigating similar struggles.

---

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Judith Joseph (04:25): "On the outside, I looked perfect... but on the inside, if I wasn't busy, I felt restless."

• Dr. Judith Joseph (19:27): "I felt so Muted."

• Dr. Judith Joseph (29:06): "Validation... acknowledging how you feel is the first step."

• Dr. Judith Joseph (34:41): "Loneliness is a choice. You can always ask for help."

---

Timestamps Reference

• 04:00 – Explanation of Anhedonia
• 04:25 – Dr. Joseph’s External Perfection vs. Internal Restlessness
• 19:27 – Realization of Personal Depression
• 29:06 – Validation in the V's Protocol
• 30:10 – Importance of Healthy Venting
• 31:08 – Reconnecting with Values
• 31:31 – Prioritizing Vitals
• 32:35 – Planning for Future Joy (Vision)
• 34:41 – Influence of Dr. Joseph’s Mother
• 15:02 – Discussion on Imposter Syndrome
• 35:28 – The Role of Connection in Joy

---

Dr. Judith Joseph's story is a testament to resilience and the transformative power of self-discovery. "Making Space" with Hoda Kotb offers listeners not only an inspiring narrative but also practical tools to navigate their own paths toward joy and fulfillment.

Transcript

[Hoda Kotb]

Welcome to Birch Lane where you can.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Find a fresh take on classic furniture and decor. Every piece is handpicked and crafted to last for years to come. At Birch Lane you can explore everything from outdoor sets to living room furniture and everything in between and get fast free shipping it's classic style for joyful living.

[Hoda Kotb]

Shop [e-mail] this Memorial Day Turn up the heat with the Home Depot. Find the perfect grill and patio set to keep the cookouts coming all season long. Grill up a feast with the next grill four burner gas grill only $229 and complete your space with the stylish Glen Ridge Falls seven piece dining set now on special buy for just $499 with free delivery. Take your Memorial Day cookout to the next level all summer long with the Home Depot. See homedepot.com delivery for more details. From the Outside My guest today had it all. Dr. Judith Joseph was a straight A student turned Duke and Columbia grad. She later went on to become a board certified psychiatrist and researcher, opening up the first female run clinical research institute in New York City. But beneath her success, Dr. Judith felt a void. She was, as she describes, pathologically productive. In an effort to mask feelings of inadequacy, Dr. Judith identified what she refers to as high functioning depression, or hfd. She was experiencing symptoms of depression like fatigue or poor concentration, guilt, restlessness without experiencing significant distress. And when Dr. Judith took out her phone and spoke openly on social media about what she was feeling, her video hit millions of views. People everywhere could relate. Well, since that moment nearly five years ago, Dr. Judith has made it her mission to help other people struggling with hfd. And now she's got a new book out. It's called High Overcome youe Hidden Depression and Reclaim youm Joy. And she's here to talk to me about that today, what she's found and how she's approaching life. This episode is for anyone who feels like they're constantly running on a hamster wheel but never quite fulfilled. Dr. Judith is insightful, introspective, and she's got some great tips on how to reach for points of joy throughout your day. I hope you find this conversation as helpful as I did. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space. First of all, I'm so happy that you're here. And I'm happy that you're here because you are speaking to women in a way that we feel understood and heard. And there's a word that you're using which I like. And it's sort of unhurried is the word. Women are sprinting through life. We are blindly running and then collapsing at the end of the day and waking up and doing it again and again and again. This was you, wasn't it?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

This was me.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tell me, I wanna hear about the old you. What were you like before you had all these beautiful epiphanies?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Wow. Well, on the outside, I looked perfect. Really. Perfect husband, perfect kid, perfect home, perfect business, just the perfect career. But no one knew that on the inside, if I wasn't busy, I felt restless. If I wasn't working, I felt empty. And I was pathologically productive. Perfect term to describe the old Dr. Judith. But you know, as a board certified psychiatrist and researcher who studies something called anhedonia, I didn't even know when anhedonia had snuck up on me. I had no idea.

[Hoda Kotb]

What is, what is anhedonia?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It's a lack of pleasure and interest and things that you once enjoyed.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, that you once enjoyed?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you're kind of plotting through life at this point. Okay, I wanna get to all of this because I find it so incredibly fascinating because I think most of us don't know what we're doing. We picture our parents, really. And I felt like that's how they lived. It's like you went to work, you came home. No one was chasing joy or anything. They just lived their lives. So bring me back to your upbringing.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, I'm from the Caribbean and, you know, in Trinidad, we would go to the beach every weekend. It was like a good life. You, you ate your food slowly, you went and you ate it.

[Hoda Kotb]

I like it.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Okay. You had community. Things were slower, you know, and if anyone's ever been there, they see it. You take your time. You do.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. So you loved, you loved that life. Right? Was it just your family or was your extended family there?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Oh, no, everyone's family on the block. My mother had four kids back to back, and she had a community. So life was good. And moving to this country for more opportunities, things really quickly changed. You know, we didn't have very much. We were dependent on assistance.

[Hoda Kotb]

Sure.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And we at times didn't have food, light, bills cutting off, so it was like night and day.

[Hoda Kotb]

How old were you when you guys moved?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I was about 4 years old. Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

What memories do you have? Cause those are very grown up problems and sometimes grownups shield us from what's going on. But do you have memories of not having enough?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I do. You know, there were times when I remember running into My mom's room with like tension headaches, like just worrying, worrying about grades, worrying about bills, worrying about things that most kids don't worry about.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It was very difficult. But my way of coping with that scarcity trauma, which is a term that I coined on social, that has resonated around the world. My way of coping and dealing with the trauma was not dealing with it and avoiding it by busying myself.

[Hoda Kotb]

So even when you were a little kid.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you played, you studied, you just did anything. So you weren't worried?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I was the one who was studying.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, you were the studyer.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I've always been high functioning.

[Hoda Kotb]

So what did you. Because sometimes kids who come from poor backgrounds are embarrassed. Like when friends come over, you're like, oh, God, don't come over. You know, afraid. Because I. I spoke to like Viola Davis or Shania Twain, Tyler Perry, all who've lived through different things. How did you deal with that kind of stuff as a little kid?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, I was definitely ashamed. And one of the symptoms of trauma is actually shame and blame. Like internalized shame and blame.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, your own fault.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes. And children have magical thinking. It's really interesting because I treat children, adolescents and adults, they somehow believe that they control the outcome. Right. If I just did better, this would happen. If I wasn't a bad kid, Daddy wouldn't have left or I would have more so. So a trauma response is internalizing that shame, which I did not wanna tell anyone about what I was going through and pushing through the pain by focusing on my studies.

[Hoda Kotb]

So that's where you shined.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

That's where I shined.

[Hoda Kotb]

You were the one when they were like, judith has it. Judith got it right again. That was you always.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I was, I was the good girl.

[Hoda Kotb]

Gosh. And it's almost like pretending from that young age, like we always try to tell our kids to be who they are, but, you know, I think again, other generations, our parents, my parents, I'll speak for my parents taught us what to think, where to stand, what to wear. Like, we, I feel like we made almost zero decisions of our own. We just became kind of a reflection of them. And it was like in that shadow that we lived. Did you feel anything like that when you were growing up?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Absolutely. There's that pressure of, you have to do well because you have opportunities that others don't have who are back home. You have to represent.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right. We came all this way for you. Oh, God, that's a lot.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Which is not always a bad thing. Right. I think that, you know, it's survival technique. And it helped. You know, initially, it was actually a positive thing because I did love learning.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

But over time, if you don't process that pain, you continue pushing through all of these little traumas that life has a way of throwing at you. Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

You can't bury them for long.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

You can after a while. There's annehedonia. Right? That light bulb girl.

[Hoda Kotb]

We're gonna get to anhedonia. I'm excited. Okay, so you're super smart. Did you have lots of friends? Was it like that or not really.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

You know, when you're focused on your studies? For me, my coping was being perfect. If there was a challenge, I would just go at it. There was a competition in the school where whoever read the most books would have the most snacks. So, you know, I had to do that, and I had to dole them out to my siblings because the four of us needed our snacks. You know, we were getting that at home. W way of life for me. Just doing, doing, doing, being the human doing, not the human being. And over time, if you push down the ability to feel that pain, you also push down the ability to feel the joy. And that's where I found myself. Not enjoying learning anymore. Now, learning was just an end to me. And I used to love reading, and that was just cramming out all information just to pass that test. So funny.

[Hoda Kotb]

You're talking about something. I interviewed Shania Twain. She grew up very poor. I mean, she had, like, bags on her feet and no food in the house. She used to say she wasn't hungry at lunch because she didn't have lunch money. And she said. I said, so how did singing come? And she goes, it didn't come out of inspiration. It came out of desperation. I sang because I had to sing. That's why I sang. I loved it when I was younger. But then it became a chore. It sounds similar. It was a chore. Now, learning wasn't the, wow, I learned something new. It's like, I gotta get it. I gotta get it.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. It becomes this fear of failure.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Versus this pursuit of knowledge.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And it is a fine line. When you're pathologically productive, you tip from excitement to anxiety very easily.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was your childhood bedroom like?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Oh, it was one room with four kids and one adult. Very different than in Trinidad where we had space. Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you were cramped in there.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes, yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

How did you function as a young kid going through, like, school? That would be. I mean, I shared room with my sister, and I was about to kill her. Most Nights.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, my mother was always on with our schoolwork, and she'd say, ol? Yes. Don't be dunce like me. Right. That's our way of saying, don't be like me. But my mom was on it. She didn't have us watching tv. She had us, you know, really learning because she saw education as the way out.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow. God, I can only imagine is your mom's with us still.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

She is.

[Hoda Kotb]

Gosh, she must be so, like, in awe of what she created. My God. Oh, I'm getting all the feels thinking of her. So you're going to college, and you choose the top because that's who you are. Were you ever just tired?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

All the time. I remember applying to colleges and worrying, like, where am I going to get this tuition from? So at one point, I just started applying for every scholarship out there. There was a scholarship for an Italian American football player. And most people would have been like, oh, that's. That's not for me. That's definitely not for you. But I was like, you know, I'm going to apply for it, because if somebody doesn't apply for it, that money's on the table. You know what? I got that scholarship. Wait. What I love was in a lodge at an Italian American association and eating with these men. And they're like, are you Italian? And I'm like, no. They're like, okay, well, good luck to you. The money was there, so if no one claimed it, I was gonna go after it.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's hustling, too. That's hustling. So you were looking to see what school? How did you choose and how did you know what school you're. Was it basically what was gonna get the financing or.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It was about financing, and it was about the destination. I always wanted to be a scientist and a doctor, and I wanted to pick a school that was strong in science. And at the time, Duke was number three in the country. And I thought it was a long shot, but I was gonna go for it, you know?

[Hoda Kotb]

Of course you did.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

The worst they can say is no. And I got in.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was that day like?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, I could not believe it.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I remember looking at that pamphlet and being like, this is a mistake. You know, the imposter syndrome started way back then. But I said, listen, if they made a mistake, that's okay. I'm gonna ride with it.

[Hoda Kotb]

What did your mom say when you got in?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

They were speechless.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe it. But with an immigrant background, their first concern is, wow, that's so far from home. Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's another adjustment for you. It is. Because from being all kind of squeezed in together to now suddenly leaving the nest and kind of being on your own, how was that adjustment for you?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It was difficult.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I'm not going to sugarcoat it. Adjusting from an urban high school, public high school, where I was number one, to a large university where people had, you know, means that I didn't have, it was a huge adjustment. It was like learning all over again.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow. How did you deal with that piece of it? Because to know that other kids had a lot. And again, we talked about shame earlier. Everyone has their shame statement. I have mine. Every single person listening has theirs. Whatever, you know, whatever it is. How did you deal with that as a young, vulnerable kind of kid in college?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

You know, I think for me, I really isolated. Even the kids who look like me, the underrepresented minorities, they had more money than I did, so I felt limited in my ability to relate to others. And I know now that that is not the case. That was a core belief that I needed to challenge. But again, we internalize blame.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's what we do.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And so I was very, very quiet. I had very few friends in college, but the one friend that I really leaned on, who was my roommate, she was really a lifesaver for me because she came from an affluent background, but she knew what it was like to be an outsider. She's Lebanese and Syrian, and she just. She was like, we're gonna get through this together. She's like, you didn't learn this in high school? What? She's like, I'm gonna teach you. Without her, without Zaina, I would have probably failed.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow. Wow. All you need is one. And that's so true. Okay, so you get through college and this imposter syndrome, by the way, just so you know, I've interviewed all of the top people in almost every profession, and I still remember Audra McDonald sitting across from me, and she's a Broadway maven. And she goes, oh, gosh, I have imposter syndrome. I go, how many Tonys is it gonna take before you don't anymore? She had, like, five or six. She was about to win another. And it's like, for all of us, all the Atta girls still somehow aren't making the great Audra McDonald feel. And, like, she deserved all of these accolades. She said, it's only now that she's saying to herself, yeah, actually, okay, I do deserve this. That imposter syndrome is horrible. I had it up until probably Five years ago, I was like, they're gonna come. My office was right there. They're gonna tap me on the shoulder and go, hey, Hoda. Tap, tap. Come on. Now we all, now we figured it out. It's time for you to go. Cause you can't imagine that you're in the position you're in.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes, that happens all the time, actually. And the interesting thing, imposter syndrome is not even a clinical diagnosis.

[Hoda Kotb]

No, it isn't.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

But none of us, especially women, would say that it didn't exist.

[Hoda Kotb]

Of course.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Right? Just like high functioning depression isn't a clinical diagnosis. But we all relate.

[Hoda Kotb]

More with Dr. Judith Joseph after the break.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

This episode is brought to you by Almond Joy.

[Hoda Kotb]

With its perfect blend of real creamy.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Coconut, rich, chocolatey taste and a satisfying almond crunch, Almond Joy is the taste.

[Hoda Kotb]

That simply takes you away.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Blissful tropical flavors will have you feeling sunny vibes and ocean breezes in every bite. Almond Joy is the ticket to a sweet, indulgent, laid back escape.

[Hoda Kotb]

One you'll want to return to again and again. Grab the creamy coconut and chocolatey crunch.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Of Almond Joy today and taste paradise. At RXBar, they believe in simple nutrition without the BS. That's why they said no to artificial ingredients and yes to deliver intentional transparent nutrition. Try their original 12 gram protein bar, the nut butter and oat bar, or Minis RXBar, the proud sponsor of no BS. Use code RXBar on RXBar.com for 25% off, subject to full terms and conditions and to change. Valid until September 30, 2025, and may not be combined with other offers. See rxbar.com for full details and limitations.

[Hoda Kotb]

McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Tender, juicy and its own sauce.

[Hoda Kotb]

Would you look at that? Well, you can't see it, but trust.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Me, it looks delicious. New McCrispy strips now at McDonald's.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, so let's talk about this. So now you want to make your life. You have all the education, you did all the things. Okay. You went to Duke and then Columbia.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes. God.

[Hoda Kotb]

All right, smarty pants over here. You did all the great things. So now there are more components to a big life. It's a husband, it's a job, it's a kid, it's all the things. How did you define success back then?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, back then, it was about titles. You know, getting into the right schools. But then from happiness research, we know this. If you keep getting the things and moving the goalposts, you're never happy. So I was never Happy. Nothing was good enough. I couldn't just go for the medical degree at Columbia. I had to also get the mba. I couldn't just do one residency. I had to consider another one. And I ended up switching from anesthesiology to psychiatry. It just kept going further. And after a while, if you're not living your life in the present, you're missing out on joy, which is what we should all be striving towards. Not this idea of happy, which is this idea that may never really happen for us.

[Hoda Kotb]

So happiness is just this thing that we're always chasing.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Always chasing.

[Hoda Kotb]

But, like, happiness is what, like, people think it's at the concert. If I get to the concert, you know, it'll be so great. Or the birthday party and all those things that I guess happiness lasts for all of two and a half hours or whatever it is, and then it's back to normal life.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. Or for those of us who have scarcity, trauma. Once you're no longer. Once the student loans are paid, once you have the house and the savings. But we know it's never enough. We keep having this fear that will run out, that all of a sudden, overnight, things will be taken from us. And it is an irrational fear, but it keeps us busy and moving, and we don't experience the joy.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's just exhausting, isn't it? It's exhausting. Okay, so to identify. Because, again, high functioning means you could do everything. And I was thinking about women listening to this. Cause we do all those things. We take the kids to school, we run to work, we do this, we do that. We're exhausted. We kiss our husband good night, we have a meal, we talk about life and we go. And there's no highs and there's no real lows. It's just humming.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Meh.

[Hoda Kotb]

Meh. Is that what that is?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you had that meh.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I had that meh. I was sitting at a desk in 2020 giving this talk to this large hospital institution, trying to help them cope through what was happening, the uncertainty in the world.

[Hoda Kotb]

Was that Covid or.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

That was Covid.

[Hoda Kotb]

Covid, yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And again, on the outside, just got onto this prestigious board and giving this talk degrees in the background. I just looked like I had it all figured out. And halfway through the talk, I felt that meh, that deadness inside. I was like, oh, my gosh. I think I'm depressed. It snuck up on me. And I'm a psychiatrist who researches depression and anhedonia. And I think I have anhedonia. I just felt so Muted.

[Hoda Kotb]

Now, will you explain now just in detail what anhedonia is?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It's when you are with your loved one and you're just not into them. You're not enjoying it the way you used to. It's when you're eating your favorite food and you used to be like, mm. But you're like, you know, you're having an intimate moment with your partner and you just wanna get it over with. You know, it's the simple joys in life. Like when you take a rest or take a nap and you wake up and you're not refreshed. Those simple joys are just not doing what they did for you.

[Hoda Kotb]

So that kind of depression isn't easy to spot. You would just think you're in a quote, funk. Or I didn't exercise, so I probably feel yuck. Or I ate terribly. You could blame it on a bunch of different things. How do you know when it is those things? You're just hitting a bad patch. Or when it's really something you should really think about looking into.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, I always ask my patients, like, are you a human being or a human doing? And that kind of hits them and they're like, I'm so busy. I'm a human being.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, a human being. Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And I just don't enjoy things and I feel meh. And isn't everyone like that?

[Hoda Kotb]

That's what people think. Everybody's got that.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. And I tell them, I said, listen, you don't have to teach a three year old how to be joyful. You know, you give a three year old a box and a spoon and they're at it. But somewhere along the way, we, as adults, important humans, we forget and miss out on the joy in life, the basics. Because we're so fast. You know, we're at our desk and we have a zoom and it's on to the next and it's on to the next. And after three hours, we realize that our belly hurts because we haven't used the bathroom, you know, and that is a simple point of joy, Right? In research, when we add up happiness, we're adding up these points, right? If you had pain and you got relief, that's joy, right? So you're robbing yourself. That's good, right? Basic joy. Yeah. If you're thirsty and you quench that thirst. You got a point, right? It sounds very different than the house in the Hamptons. Right? Or the big job.

[Hoda Kotb]

But the simple, simple, simple pleasures. Boy, that's fascinating. I can't believe. What are some other small Points. I'm so interested. And by the way, we should point out, you have a whole research lab. You have a completely female run research staff. That was all intentional.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

It wasn't just. I wish I could say that we used to start, we start off with all men, mostly men. And then it shifted to all women. We just hired our first man.

[Hoda Kotb]

Spoiler alert. No, I'm sure he's great.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

But yeah, it just, it turned out that way over the.

[Hoda Kotb]

Over life. Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. A lot of people moved away after, you know, 2020.

[Hoda Kotb]

So what else? Because I don't think we think about a beautiful cold glass of water on a hot day where we pause for a second and say, wow, thank you. This is pretty spectacular.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, one of the questions I'm often asked is, you know, how is this different than anxiety? Well, on our research assessments, we asked things like tension and muscle aches. And if you are relieving tension, that's joyful. It's hard to be happy when you're stressed.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So it's simple things like getting up from your desk and getting off of the screen and doing something like breathing.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

By relaxing yourself. You got a point there.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes. Oh, that's good. How many points do we need?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

A lot of points. We look at a whole plethora of sensations and it's a game changer for people who have been sad all their lives or just feel as if they've been a funk and they can't obtain happiness. When you shift it and you're like, forget that idea of being happy in the future.

[Hoda Kotb]

Forget that.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Let's see if you can get a point today. So if you didn't get a point today, there's hope tomorrow you can get one or two points or the next day it shifts their mindset. You know, it feels hopeful.

[Hoda Kotb]

So when you kind of diagnosed yourself with high functioning depression, which is so interesting, then what? Okay, so now, you know, you have this thing and it's like, ding, ding, ding, something's gone off in your head. Then what? Like, what do you do with that?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, I, you know, because I'm high functioning af, I had to do a research study on it. I couldn't just leave it on the table. I thought, how many people are just like me?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And first I tested the waters. Because I teach at nyu, I developed this course for physicians who are psychiatrists, basically teaching them how to communicate to the press. So if there's a big, you know, devastation, how do you give a press conference where you're not talking above people and you're talking with them, you know. And so I tested the waters and I said, let me create a social media reel on this just to see if it hits with anyone. I thought maybe 100 people would respond. It was viewed over 20 million times around the world across platforms.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tell us about that reel. Like, what did it reveal? What did the reel show? For those who haven't seen it yet.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Waking up before your alarm because you've got that anxious energy about the next day. Drinking coffee instead of eating a proper meal because we're so busy and important we can't even feed our bodies.

[Hoda Kotb]

Very busy and important. Okay.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Or when we do eat, we shove it in our mouths in front of a screen. We don't savor it. We're not like, ooh, I like those, you know, pistachios or like, down the house, give me calories so I can do my next thing right. Not using the bathroom until you get home.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

So guilty of that. When I was high functioning af, you know, and instead of spending time with your kids who you miss and you love, you're so distracted, you get kind of irritable when you're playing with them. So what do you do? You doom scroll at bed and you look at their pictures or you look online. Anything but dealing with the actual interaction.

[Hoda Kotb]

Boy, so once you knew, you hit the nerve which so many other people were saying. Me too, me too. We need solutions, obviously. And there are. I mean, people take medications for depression. Some people do other things. What was your kind of answer to this?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, I had a theory based on my personal experiences and what I was seeing in my practice. I had a theory that people who are high functioning have unprocessed pain in their past, unprocessed trauma, and they're busying to deal rather than processing it. And so when I wrote this protocol, it looks at things like combat assault, having a bankruptcy or having a divorce or being treated poorly because of your background and so forth. I wanted to capture all of those tiny traumas or little T traumas so that we could see if that correlated to whether or not people coped with that.

[Hoda Kotb]

When you talk about, if you ask every person how they grew up and you ask them what their shame statement is, kind of a strong word, but I was next to somebody and we were talking about this very thing and we went around a room and people were saying what their shame statement was, and the woman next to me said, I'm a mistake. And I was like, she seemed perfectly fine, but her whole life she felt like she was a mistake. She was the one who wasn't supposed to be born, and her parents probably made her feel that way, too. So it can be that.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Absolutely.

[Hoda Kotb]

That thing. You're right. It doesn't have to be horrible abuse or terrible. Whatever. And if you're listening, you have one. We all have one. Unless you've buried it so deep you haven't unearthed it yet, but we all have one. So. Okay, so now you know. So you've got that thing. So now what do you do with that?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

We all have one, but some of us can't remember it. And one of the symptoms of trauma is burying memories that are painful. So just because you can't think of one doesn't mean you can't find your way back.

[Hoda Kotb]

More with Dr. Judith Joseph in just a moment.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Nothing brings us together like Eglin's best eggs. Always so fresh and delicious. Plus superior nutrition. Like 6 times more vitamin D, 10 times more vitamin E, and 25% less saturated fat compared to ordinary eggs. For us, it's eggs, any style, as long as they're the best. Egglin's best. Better taste, better nutrition, better eggs.

[Hoda Kotb]

Better.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Visit eglinsbest.com to learn more.

[Hoda Kotb]

Walmart+ it's Walmart+ free delivery, which saves members time + money.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yep.

[Hoda Kotb]

Plus an included Paramount+ subscription to stream.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Movies, shows, sports and that can't miss documentary.

[Hoda Kotb]

Plus Burger King savings.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

That's right.

[Hoda Kotb]

Members get 25% off Burger King digital.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Orders every day of the week.

[Hoda Kotb]

Walmart plus it's Walmart plus become a member at walmartplus.com $35 order minimum.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Paramount plus essential plan only. Separate registration required. Valid and participating USVKs in the BK.

[Hoda Kotb]

App or bk.com for members only. 25% off one time per calendar day. Terms apply.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

See Walmart plus terms and conditions. Airwick Essential Mist Diffuser transforms your space, creating your perfect ambiance with a wide range of inviting fragrances that make your guests go airwick Essential Mist Diffuser's easy to change. Refills allow you to choose your perfect fragrance for any occasion, like lush honeysuckle and raspberry and vibrant island coconut and warm sands. And if guests start shifting from the table to the couches, no worries.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's perfectly portable and cordless.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Airwick Essential Mist Diffuser. Always inviting.

[Hoda Kotb]

So what is. You have the V's, right?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I do.

[Hoda Kotb]

What's the first one?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

The first V is validation.

[Hoda Kotb]

Validation.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Many of us push down how we feel. We don't accept it or acknowledge it, and it's important to acknowledge how you feel. Because there's a term called affect labeling in psychology where if you can pinpoint what it is, then you feel less anxious. You know, I use this analogy of you're in a dark room and something makes a loud noise and you just start, like lurking around. You can't see it. You get really anxious, but you turn the light on, you see what it is. Just knowing what it is in itself is therapeutic.

[Hoda Kotb]

So that's it. Finding your thing, whatever your button is. Okay, so once you've, let's say, like this girl who I just told you, she knew that's what her button was, I'm a mistake. So now what's the next V?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

The next V is venting, expressing. Get it out, get it out. Now we'll be talking to. Is different than trauma dumping. You know, there are do's and don'ts. You know, you don't want to necessarily talk to someone and dump all of your emotions onto them if they are someone who's like, you know, in a position of power that's below you. Right? Because then they're not going to say anything to you. They're afraid of getting fired.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Or to your kids, you know, because in that hierarchy, they want to be there for you. And they're not going to say, you know, mommy, I don't want to hear, they're gonna wanna attach so they won't reject you. So you wanna think about that. You wanna pick one or two people who you trust, and you wanna ask for emotional consent. You want to say, I have something to say to you, and are you ready to hear it? Cause you don't wanna get rejected in that moment as well. But venting doesn't have to be just verbal. I work with a lot of neurodiverse clients, and people can write in a journal. You can sing. If you're an artist, you can draw. You know, there are different ways. Pray, crying.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right? All of it. Now. We vented it. It's out of our system. Okay, and now what do we do? Values.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Values are the things that are priceless. Not with the price tags. You know, for me, I used to truly value knowledge and curiosity. And then I lost track of that because my values got muddied with the accolades and the achievements and the titles, and I had to find my way back to what I valued. And I remember I walked into Barnes and Nobles, I got Michelle Obama's book Becoming, and I was just like, oh, my gosh, I forgot how I love to just read.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes. Basic.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Like simple pleasures.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Simple pleasures.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you can get back to your values and find them again. And once you're cleared out a little bit, you get room. Right, to remember those things.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, so then what's after values?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Vitals.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

We only get one body and brain.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, gosh.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I tell my daughter this, and she was 2. How many bodies did God give you? She goes, one, Mommy. What do you got to do with it? Take care of it. You only get one body.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And there's only one you. There will only ever be one Hoda ever. In the future of the universe, in the history of the universe, only one Judith. We have to take care of ourselves. So I talk about the traditional vitals, like sleep, nutrition, movement, but there are the non traditional ones that are really important, like the relationships you're in, you know, are they toxic? Are they healthy? Because relationships will make or break you in terms of your health. They're so important. The research is showing that.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

And then our relationship with technology, you know, there's all this emerging evidence about children, but now there's emerging evidence about how too much exposure to tech impacts adult mental health. And then work life balance, which is a constant struggle for many of us who are high functioning, you know, just trying to leave work at work and enjoying our life outside.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay. All right. Is there still one more V. Vision.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Vision.

[Hoda Kotb]

I like this one.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Okay. This is about planning joy for the future so you don't get stuck in the past and it doesn't have to be big. Like this morning, I got my daughter to school on time.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's good. And you made it here, too.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yes, and I had my coffee in the living room after and I savored it. And that's my treat. That's my point of joy that I put in the near future to look forward to. But it could be bigger. It could be something like a birthday or, you know, celebrating with your team after you did a big project rather than going on to the next. Right. How many times do we do that? Celebrate your wins because tomorrow is not promised and have something to look forward to.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love that. Do you think some people are just born with positivity or born negative or. And is that something that we can work on? If someone feels like, I kind of see a cloudy day when I look out, don't tell me the sun's coming out in an hour.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Yeah. Some of us are born with these happy dispositions. Right. We are more optimistic. But then others, you know, we are also influenced by those who are attachment figures. You know, I remember when I was young, my mother, she had no reason to be as joyful as she was, but she was always optimistic. And there was always a stranger at our table. Oh, really? Someone having dinner. And we didn't have much. And I used to be like, this woman is giving our food away. But she just knew that. That God would provide. You know, she was just that person, whereas I was the worrywart, like, where are we gonna get this from? And where are we gonna get that? And, you know, when I was going through my divorce, I opened up to her, and she had no idea. She had no idea I was struggling. And she says to me, she says, judith, loneliness is a choice. You can always ask for help. You can always lean on others. And it just, like, it hit me. I'm like, here I am, this fancy researcher, and my mom, who has no doctorate degrees, and she's just like, you just need to connect, you know? Like, so for someone. Oh, my God, I'm gonna cry for an hour. For someone who has been so joyful, I found myself at, you know, late in my career, learning from her. She's not a happiness researcher, but she is an expert in connection.

[Hoda Kotb]

Mm. Oh, my God. Your mom sounds extraordinary.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

She is.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow. When do you think she was the proudest of you?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Wow. I think this book. I think she's very proud of me sharing our family's story because, you know, she was someone who. She managed to raise four kids who get along. We're still really close. You know, we had this group text, and I think it's because she just. She sees the potential in every person. She's so optimistic.

[Hoda Kotb]

Man, you're really blessed to have her.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I am.

[Hoda Kotb]

She is, too. Wow. What does this chapter in your life feel like? I mean, I feel like I've gotten to walk through your life with you, and here we sit in this moment where you're clearly on top of the wave. What does it feel like in this moment?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Well, I grew up in a very spiritual household, so there are times in my life when I knew that my gut was saying, this is not for you. Right. And other times that I ignored that, and I just went with, well, this is what everyone else says I should be doing. But this. It just feels right, you know, I just feel like there's so many people who don't have words to describe what they're experiencing. You know, they don't know why they can't access joy. They've forgotten who they are. And, you know, before, I was so ashamed of my story, my trauma you know, I perceived divorce and all these things as failures, and now it's just a different way of thinking. Now I feel like sharing my pain is my way of processing it. And I'm helping others. So it. It just feels like I'm listening to that voice instead of invalidating it.

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, this book by Dr. Judith Joseph High. Overcome youe Hidden Depression and Reclaim youm Joy. It's a beautiful book. It's no wonder Oprah wants you on her show and everybody else. So I'm just so happy to be sitting with you. Before we go, I just wanna ask you this. Cause I always ask this at the end. This podcast is called Making Space. Cause I think it's important that we all kind of be a little unhurried in life. So if you did have a day that was only for you, you could wake up when your body said it's time. And you can go to sleep when it said it was time. And you could fill it with anything, whatever, just anything to fill your tank. How do you think that day would unfold?

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Oh, well, you know, I've learned that my values have shifted. I am all about connection. And the happiest moments in my life were times when I felt connected to my siblings, to my daughter, to my team. I would fill my day with interactions with those people that I love the most. Oh, that is. That's my joy. Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

And get a massage, too. Dr. Judah, thank you so much.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, that was so beautiful. Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and and review on Apple Podcasts and make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Alison Berger along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Mostarilli. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau and Bob Mallory. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Least is the executive vice president of Today and Lifestyle.

[Dr. Judith Joseph]

Nothing brings us together like Eglin's best eggs. Always so fresh and delicious. Plus superior nutrition. Like 6 times more vitamin D, 10 times more vitamin E, and 25% less saturated fat compared to ordinary eggs. For us, it's eggs any style, as long as they're the best. Eglund's best. Better taste, better nutrition, better eggs. Visit eglinsbest.com to learn more.