Making Space with Hoda Kotb: Dr. Judith Joseph on Overcoming Hidden Depression and Rediscovering Joy

Episode Release Date: May 21, 2025

In this compelling episode of "Making Space with Hoda Kotb," host Hoda Kotb engages in a heartfelt and insightful conversation with Dr. Judith Joseph, a distinguished psychiatrist, researcher, and author. Dr. Joseph shares her profound journey from achieving remarkable academic and professional success to grappling with high functioning depression (HFD) and ultimately rediscovering joy in her life.

1. Introducing Dr. Judith Joseph

Dr. Judith Joseph is celebrated for her impressive academic background, including degrees from Duke and Columbia, and her groundbreaking work as the founder of New York City's first female-run clinical research institute. Despite her outward success, Dr. Joseph felt a lingering void, which she identifies as high functioning depression—a condition marked by persistent productivity without experiencing significant distress.

2. Understanding High Functioning Depression and Anhedonia

Dr. Joseph delves into the concept of anhedonia, explaining it as "a lack of pleasure and interest in things that you once enjoyed" (04:00). Unlike traditional depression, individuals with HFD may not exhibit overt signs of distress but instead display symptoms like fatigue, poor concentration, and restlessness. This subtle manifestation often leads to the condition being overlooked or misunderstood.

3. Dr. Joseph’s Personal Journey

Growing up in Trinidad, Dr. Joseph fondly recalls a childhood filled with community, slower-paced living, and regular visits to the beach. However, relocating to the United States at the age of four brought stark changes, including financial instability and scarcity. She recounts, "On the outside, I looked perfect... but on the inside, if I wasn't busy, I felt restless" (04:25).

To cope with the trauma of scarcity, Dr. Joseph adopted a pathologically productive lifestyle from an early age. This relentless drive to excel masked deeper feelings of inadequacy and led to the erosion of her ability to experience joy.

4. Recognizing the Signs of HFD

A pivotal moment in Dr. Joseph's life occurred during the COVID-19 pandemic. While delivering a lecture to a large hospital institution, she felt a profound sense of "meh" and realized she was experiencing symptoms of depression herself. Reflecting, she shares, "I felt so Muted" (19:27). This self-awareness propelled her to investigate HFD further, both personally and professionally.

5. The V's Protocol: A Pathway to Joy

In her mission to assist others struggling with HFD, Dr. Joseph introduces the V's protocol, a structured approach to reclaiming joy:

• Validation (29:06): Acknowledging and accepting one's feelings. Dr. Joseph emphasizes the importance of recognizing emotions as the first step towards healing. She likens it to turning on the light in a dark room to see what’s causing anxiety.

• Venting (30:10): Expressing emotions in a healthy manner, whether through conversation, journaling, or creative outlets. She advises seeking emotional consent before sharing deep feelings to avoid overwhelming others.

• Values (31:08): Reconnecting with one's core values and passions. Dr. Joseph shares a personal anecdote about rediscovering her love for reading by picking up Michelle Obama’s Becoming at Barnes & Noble (31:18).

• Vitals (31:31): Prioritizing physical well-being through sleep, nutrition, movement, and maintaining healthy relationships. She underscores that "there's only one you" and stresses the importance of self-care.

• Vision (32:35): Planning and anticipating moments of joy for the future, whether big or small. From savoring a morning coffee to celebrating professional milestones, envisioning joyful moments helps shift focus from past traumas to future aspirations.

6. The Role of Connection and Family

Dr. Joseph pays tribute to her mother, whose unwavering optimism and emphasis on connection profoundly influenced her journey. Recalling her mother's wisdom, she shares, "Loneliness is a choice. You can always ask for help" (34:41). This guidance helped Dr. Joseph realize the transformative power of relationships in overcoming HFD and finding joy.

7. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Throughout the conversation, both Hoda and Dr. Joseph touch upon imposter syndrome, a pervasive feeling of self-doubt despite evident success. Dr. Joseph notes, "Imposter syndrome is not even a clinical diagnosis, but none of us, especially women, would say that it didn't exist" (15:02). Addressing these internalized fears is crucial in the path to embracing one's true self and achievements.

8. Practical Insights for Listeners

Dr. Joseph offers actionable advice for those battling HFD:

• Acknowledge and Validate Emotions: Recognizing feelings without judgment is the foundation of healing.

• Healthy Expression: Choose trusted individuals or creative outlets to vent emotions constructively.

• Reconnect with Values: Identify and engage with activities that genuinely bring joy and fulfillment.

• Prioritize Physical Health: Consistent sleep, balanced nutrition, and regular movement are essential.

• Plan for Joy: Integrate moments of happiness into daily and future plans to foster a positive mindset.

9. Conclusion: Embracing Joy Through Connection

As the conversation draws to a close, Dr. Joseph reflects on her current chapter, highlighting the significance of connection in her life. She states, "The happiest moments in my life were times when I felt connected to my siblings, to my daughter, to my team" (35:28). Her journey underscores the importance of making space for joy by addressing hidden depression and fostering meaningful relationships.

Dr. Joseph's new book, High Overcome Your Hidden Depression and Reclaim Your Joy, encapsulates her research and personal experiences, offering a beacon of hope for those navigating similar struggles.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Judith Joseph (04:25): "On the outside, I looked perfect... but on the inside, if I wasn't busy, I felt restless."

• Dr. Judith Joseph (19:27): "I felt so Muted."

• Dr. Judith Joseph (29:06): "Validation... acknowledging how you feel is the first step."

• Dr. Judith Joseph (34:41): "Loneliness is a choice. You can always ask for help."

Timestamps Reference

• 04:00 – Explanation of Anhedonia
• 04:25 – Dr. Joseph’s External Perfection vs. Internal Restlessness
• 19:27 – Realization of Personal Depression
• 29:06 – Validation in the V's Protocol
• 30:10 – Importance of Healthy Venting
• 31:08 – Reconnecting with Values
• 31:31 – Prioritizing Vitals
• 32:35 – Planning for Future Joy (Vision)
• 34:41 – Influence of Dr. Joseph’s Mother
• 15:02 – Discussion on Imposter Syndrome
• 35:28 – The Role of Connection in Joy

Dr. Judith Joseph's story is a testament to resilience and the transformative power of self-discovery. "Making Space" with Hoda Kotb offers listeners not only an inspiring narrative but also practical tools to navigate their own paths toward joy and fulfillment.