Jenna Bush Hager and Sheinelle Jones on Trust Amidst Change and New Beginnings

Summary

Making Space with Hoda Kotb:

Jenna Bush Hager & Sheinelle Jones on Trust Amidst Change and New Beginnings

Release Date: February 4, 2026
Host: Hoda Kotb
Guests: Jenna Bush Hager & Sheinelle Jones

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Episode Overview

This heartfelt episode of "Making Space" explores the power of trust, vulnerability, and friendship as TODAY Show colleagues Jenna Bush Hager and Sheinelle Jones step into a new chapter together as co-hosts. Joined by Hoda Kotb in a SiriusXM Front Row conversation, the trio reflects deeply on navigating personal and professional change, handling public scrutiny, finding strength through grief, and the formative influence of generational wisdom. At its core, the discussion is about supporting one another through transitions, honoring authenticity, and making resilient space for joy even in the midst of pain.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Magic of New Beginnings

[00:00-03:47]

• Hoda opens by framing the episode as a moment of transition, paying tribute to the enduring bond she shares with Jenna and celebrating Sheinelle stepping into a new role—despite personal heartache.
• She reflects on a moving torch-passing moment with Kathie Lee Gifford, emphasizing that "when something is built on authenticity and heart, it does not end. It evolves."
• The symbolism and emotion of Oprah introducing "Jenna and Sheinelle" as co-hosts is discussed, with Sheinelle describing the internal struggle between leaning into her feelings and staying "in her body":

  “But I tried to stay in my body.” —Sheinelle Jones [02:52]

2. Chemistry & Connection

[03:47–05:36]

• Hoda prompts Jenna to break down what makes her dynamic with Sheinelle work:

  “What matters is what's between us...I liked her immediately...She's from Kansas, I'm from Texas, we're similar age, our children are similar age...but I liked her, like, I want to go get a glass of [wine] with you and hang.” —Jenna Bush Hager [03:48]

• Jenna credits Sheinelle’s professionalism and vulnerability as critical to their chemistry and her own growth as a host.

3. The Importance of Vulnerability and Open Hearts

[05:36–06:18]

• Jenna and Sheinelle agree that an open heart is essential to meaningful relationships and authentic broadcasting:

  "To have an open heart means you do cry." —Jenna Bush Hager [05:39]

• Jenna shares a personal story about crying in church, using it as a teaching moment about embracing emotions.

4. Conquering Imposter Syndrome & Finding Belonging

[06:18–11:44]

• Sheinelle recalls her nerves joining NBC, describing an on-air panic and the symbolism of carrying her grandfather’s pen as a grounding reminder of her roots and support system:

  “All these people who have poured into me...I deserve to be here. And if I'm gonna forget that, I'm gonna hold this pen to remind myself.” —Sheinelle Jones [09:11]

• Jenna relates her own self-doubt, touching on public perceptions due to her family legacy and the lasting advice from Maria Shriver:

  “No matter how hard you work, there are people who are still gonna say [you got the job because of your name]. So you live your life, you do it on your terms.” —Maria Shriver, recalled by Jenna Bush Hager [12:35]

5. Navigating Grief in the Public Eye

[13:35–17:36]

• Hoda and Sheinelle discuss Sheinelle’s journey following her husband Uche’s recent passing, including the pressures to "be better" and the importance of honesty about ongoing pain:

  “Maybe it can be a teachable thing for people to know...No, I'm not better. And I don't know when I'm going to be better, if ever. But what I do know is that I know how I want to be.” —Sheinelle Jones [14:16]

• Sheinelle shares how modeling resilience and presence for her children motivates her, while also allowing herself restorative breaks.

6. Public Response, Compassion, and Shared Humanity

[17:36–20:18]

• Sheinelle reflects on the outpouring of support from viewers across divides:

  “We are good people...what I know now to be true is that grief knows no color, no gender. It's not blue or red...We all feel it.” —Sheinelle Jones [18:30]

• She discusses “earning her badge” of grief, and how this experience has shaped her ability to "hold space" for others’ pain.

7. When Work and Family Intertwine

[21:30–27:36]

• Jenna describes the emotional challenge and ultimate growth she found after Hoda’s departure and a year of “Jenna and Friends.”
• Both women talk about their children’s down-to-earth reactions to their public successes, highlighting the grounding role of family and humor:

  “I feel like I'm learning how to fly a plane and flying it at the same time. Chanel 2.0, as my friends say.” —Sheinelle Jones [25:15]

8. Friendship as Foundation and Lifeline

[27:36–31:25]

• Sheinelle details her circle of lifelong best friends (“besties from their whole life”), how they got her through the hardest moments after her husband’s passing, and a lighthearted “restoration tour.”
• Jenna and Sheinelle relate over the power of long-standing friendships and supportive networks.

9. Generational Wisdom and Grandmother’s Influence

[33:40–37:46]

• Both women end with tributes to their grandmothers’ strength, feistiness, and guiding values:

  “When you choose to name somebody something, it's like the most profound first moment. So from the very beginning my parents were saying like these women mean everything to you, they mean everything to us and therefore they'll mean everything to you.” —Jenna Bush Hager [34:23] “Just the way I move in a space and the way I carry myself, that's from not only being taught by my grandparents and my grandmother, but just watching them and it becomes how you navigate.” —Sheinelle Jones [36:40]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can move forward without leaving love behind.” —Hoda Kotb [00:48]
• “What matters is what's between us...I liked her immediately.” —Jenna Bush Hager [03:48]
• “The woman I want to be...she would go outside and she would stop and go around...and look at them. And receive what they have to say, because it's just love out there. And so I did.” —Sheinelle Jones [15:11]
• “It pained me when I got home yesterday when everything is still. That's when it gets hard. And I couldn't call grandmama and I couldn't call Uche.” —Sheinelle Jones [16:44]
• “We are good people...what I know now to be true is that grief knows no color, no gender...We all feel it.” —Sheinelle Jones [18:30]
• “Both of my grandmothers...taught both of us, Barbara and me, how to use our voices.” —Jenna Bush Hager [35:01]
• “My girlfriends put me back together again.” —Sheinelle Jones [31:02]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 — Show intro & episode framing by Hoda
• 02:52 — Sheinelle describes her emotional journey & internal tug-of-war
• 03:48 — Jenna on instant friendship chemistry
• 06:53 — Sheinelle’s first nerves joining NBC; story of her grandfather’s pen
• 11:49 — Jenna on public scrutiny, Maria Shriver’s advice, and finding peace
• 13:51 — Sheinelle on grief, resilience, and setting an example for her kids
• 18:27 — Sheinelle on the universality of grief and finding connection
• 22:42 — Jenna reflects on her emotional year without Hoda and personal growth
• 25:15 — Sheinelle on adapting to “Chanel 2.0” in life and career
• 29:26 — Sheinelle on the importance of long-term friendships
• 34:23 — Jenna discusses being named for her grandmothers as a guiding lesson
• 36:40 — Sheinelle’s tribute to her grandmothers’ influence on her life

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Theme & Tone

The tone throughout is candid, supportive, and deeply empathetic. There’s a steady balance between laughter, nostalgia, and raw vulnerability. The women model how to create and hold space for growth, grief, and genuine connection—emphasizing that strength comes from authenticity, not perfection.

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For the Listener

You’ll finish this episode with fresh insights on friendship, courage, and embracing your “next chapter”—even when life feels uncertain and heavy. Jenna and Sheinelle’s openness, bolstered by Hoda’s warm facilitation, is a reminder that shared stories and mutual support can light the way through new beginnings.

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Recommended Listen:

Check out this episode for an inspiring, tearful, and joy-filled meditation on finding grace in transitions, trusting in friendship, and making space for every part of the journey.

Transcript

[A]

Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com switch and now T mobile is in US cellular stores. Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the cost of optional benefits plan features in Texas and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits. Credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required. You've made it on time for the McDonald's breakfast menu. You think to yourself, finally I can start my day. But what if breakfast could be even more perfect with the hot honey sausage egg biscuit? It finally is. Go to McDonald's and get it while you can. There are moments in life when you can't see through the change, but sad somehow what's ahead is more beautiful than you ever expected. Well, this is one of those moments. Jenna Bush Hager and I sat side by side for years, sharing laughter, tears, and a beautiful friendship that made it so hard to walk away. Over the last year, Jenna sat down side by side with lots of friends. As it turns out, her permanent friend is someone we both know and love, Chanel Jones. For Chanel, this season holds so much more than a seat at the table. She's stepping into something new while navigating the loss of her beloved husband, Uche, showing us that joy and grief are not opposites, but beautiful companions, that you can move forward without leaving love behind. In a moment that made Jenna and Chanel's first day feel full circle, Kathie Lee Gifford joined me in passing the torch to Jenna and Chanel, reminding them that when something is built on authenticity and heart, it is. It does not end. It evolves. I sat down with Jenna and Chanel for a serious XM Front Row event on Today Show Radio in New York to chat about their new beginning together and all they're looking forward to as they enter this exciting chapter. This conversation is about new beginnings, about friendship that holds you steady, about finding the courage to step into the next version of your life, even when you do not have all the answers yet. I'm Hoda Kotb and this is my podcast, Making Space. Oprah was on your show and I heard her go Jenna and Chanel. I literally freaked out. What did it feel like to hear those words? I mean, you've heard them in the open, but to hear them coming from like an icon like Oprah Winfrey?

[B]

I have this internal tug of war after Yesterday, where I felt like all I did was cry, and Jenna just, like, held me up, and she was the strong one yesterday, and I'm just like. So today I was like, chanel, stay in your body. Stay in your body. Stay in your body. But that's also counter to who I am, and I want to be present, and I want to feel, and I want to lean in. And, I mean, most of us have been watching her for forever. My mom still has all the magazines piled up everywhere. You know, I wanted to, like, really let myself just feel. But I'll be honest, there was a piece of me that thought, okay, Chanel, like, feel it, but just hold back just a little. So I'm looking at her, and I could really allow myself to just let go. But I tried to stay in my body.

[A]

I mean, this is what magic looks like. This is what it feels like when something's right. You can see it. I know everybody in here could see it. People at home could see it. We could feel it. Jenna, why do you think it works? Like, what is the click?

[C]

Well, I mean, you never really know. Like, I don't know. Why did we work? I feel like what matters is what's between us, and we've talked about that. You and I talked about it for a long time. But, I mean, when I met Chanel, I liked her immediately, you know? And one of the reasons why I've thought, although, like, who can diagnose this, is, like, she's from Kansas. I'm from Texas. We're similar age. We have similar, aged children, and so we're going through similar things in life at the same time. And we kind of had similar childhoods, but also differences. And so I just met her, and I was like, I like you. Like, I want to go get a glass of with you and hang. And I think that matters a lot when you do. And, you know, I felt that same way about you. And one of the things I've told Chanel is, is that when I started with Hoda, of course I liked her the way y' all all like her, loved her. But what's so cool about a job like this is that when she left, it was like, a whole different thing. You know, she's like, I talk to her all the time. She's one of the closest people in my entire life. So what's fun is to start something with somebody that I like so much, and I liked her instantly. But to, like, fall in love, what.

[A]

Does Chanel have that you need?

[C]

I think one. And this is after And I didn't know I needed this, but I had a lot of co hosts over the last year. Chanel is a pro, man. She's done this for 30 years. She's a journalist, but she's also willing to have an open heart. So she's not like, let me just read the question and not listen. Like, she's open to following, you know, her instincts and listening to people. And I think, first of all, having a pro. I said, I woke up yesterday, and I was just like. Cause I've had.

[B]

See, right now I'm trying not to.

[A]

Fully, like, lean into my emotions.

[C]

You're allowed to lean into emotions?

[B]

No, because I'll just start crying again.

[C]

That's okay. I told her. I mean, Hoda can tell you, like, to have an open heart means you do cry. And I think. I mean, I cried at church on Sunday, and I was embarrassed in front of my children, although they had left for Sunday school. But Mila was up in the pews. Cause the confirmation or up in the balcony. And she looked down and she was like. And like, yes, I humiliate my children. But also, I hope I'm teaching them as. Actually, it was my dad and my grandpa taught me, which is like, it's okay to have an open heart.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, your heart, Chanel, is on the table.

[B]

My heart is like, what is happening?

[A]

Let's talk about the journey to this seat.

[B]

Okay, now you're gonna make me cry.

[A]

I wanna back up. Because there's nothing better than looking at old clips of you from back in the day. The days of dreaming, the days of wondering what's ahead. The days of thinking, wow, I guess I'm at the top when you're in Kansas. Or I guess I'm at the top when you're in another city. When you first stepped into NBC, those feelings. Because for a local girl, and I was local, too, it was like, how do we belong here? These people are really good. How did you go in, step into NBC with some kind of confidence?

[B]

The truth of the matter is, I thought I had the confidence. I thought I had it. And then when I got here, and you start looking around, which can be dangerous, you start to say, oh, do I belong here? Do I have what it takes? And I remember there was a day where I was filling in for. I think it was Natalie Ross at the time. And it was. The show was today's take at the time. And I've never had any kind of a thing on the air where I, like, get nervous or nothing like that. Had happened to me until that moment. And I remember they tossed to me and Natalie used to do like the news headlines for today's take or something. So I remember being at the Monitor, not thinking anything of it. I could do this. Been doing this for years. They tossed me with my news headlines. And all of a sudden I looked and I saw like Al Roker and like the Today logo. And then I just started thinking about people like looking at me and just whatever that is. And I was like, I just remember thinking like, oh, this has never happened to me before, but I'm just really nervous. Is this a panic attack? I've never had a panic, but. And I'm still reading the news, but I felt like it was going in the wrong direction. And I remember bailing. I remember getting to a story. It was something about Prince. That's how long ago it was. I don't remember, but I remember it was something about Prince. And I said in my mind, we must stop reading. And I said, al. And he wasn't ready. He's like, oh, you know.

[A]

Cause you had to pass it on. You had to.

[B]

And then I remember the executive producer at the time was Tammy Filler. And she got my ear and she's like, are you okay? And I was like, oh my gosh, I don't. Yeah, I'm not feeling well. You know, she's oh my gosh, no worries, just go home, get some rest, you know, whatever, no big deal. And I remember getting home and being like, that can never happen again. Yeah, like that. We've got to figure something out.

[A]

So what did you do?

[B]

I flew home to see my grandparents and I remember I got there, it was a weekend, so thank God it was a weekend. And I'm like, by Monday I gotta get my stuff together. And I remember going to church and like, oh, Chanel Jones. Everybody's so proud. Chanel. Little Chanel. Used to read the Sunday school minutes. Made it. And now she's at the Today show. Stand up and tell everybody what's going on here. You know, they're all. So I stand up. Oh, hi everybody.

[C]

Oh, hi.

[B]

And I'm like, they're looking at me like. And I'm like, oh, it's going great. Just home to, you know, everything's great, nothing to see here. And so then I remember going back over to my grandparents house and my grandfather house. These like beautiful pens in his office. And I remember just taking a pen because they were so proud of me. And I thought, I'm gonna take this pin from my grandpa's. Desk. And I'm gonna remember when I'm like, bring it with me on the set so that I remember who I am, whose I am. All these people who have poured into me from my church and how my grandfather and his father, like, all these people are in me. I deserve to be here. And if I'm gonna forget that, I'm gonna hold this pen to remind myself.

[C]

I love that.

[B]

And I've never heard this story. I love this story. I haven't told this story.

[C]

Okay, well, tomorrow, tune in.

[B]

So then I remember, then back on the set, and they talk. You know, I'm filling in for something. And for years, if you saw me.

[A]

I always had a pin rubbing it.

[B]

And just kind of holding it. I had it for a while, and then it became any pin, but just something so that when I held it, I remember who I am. And then I noticed a few years ago that I was talking and I didn't have one, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, I don't need it anymore. Because now I know that. I know that. I know that. I know. But I would be lying if I said I just got here, and I'm.

[C]

Like, oh, I'm here.

[B]

Like, it was a.

[A]

It.

[B]

It was a process for me.

[A]

Well, and I think what you just said, like, to put all of that vulnerability. And Jenna, too. Jenna was a schoolteacher. This was not her profession at all. And I remember you stepping into NBC, and I remember thinking to myself, like, she's so fun, but does she know how to do this?

[C]

And by the way, people would say that, like, to me, they did. Oh, yeah. Like, Tom Costello, bless his heart. I mean, he's wonderful, but he would say this. He said to me, like, we all thought you were gonna be like. And I was like, day 20.

[B]

Like, I was like, okay.

[C]

You know?

[A]

But how did you. Because I remember one of our vice presidents of talent was getting on you to. You gotta read the prompt. You have to learn this. You have to learn this. And I remember you grinding on it and trying. When did you know, like, I actually do belong here. I can make it here.

[C]

I mean, I think I don't have, like, as profound as a moment. I think it took time. And here's the thing. It's like, everybody has a little question in your head, which is the thing that the mean people say, right? So mine has always been like, you got this job because of your dad. And if you look at Twitter, which doesn't exist anymore, but if you look at whatever it's called the People that Don't Like Me Write that, okay? If I wanna believe that, I can believe it. And there's days where I do, you know? And I let myself feel bad about whatever it is. Like, I'm not good. Like, the only reason. Which is crazy. Cause I've worked at NBC for 17 years. They may hire me because of that, but they're not keeping me around that long.

[A]

Well, you're gonna remember this. I hope it's okay that I share. I think it's probably fine. But you'll tell me later if it's not.

[C]

If it doesn't have to do with underwear. It's fine.

[A]

That's true. No, it was. And I think you both had profound moments with Maria Shriver. But this one I remember well. Jenna came in exhausted in the makeup room, exhausted. Maria said, what's wrong? And you said, I'm exhausted. You said, I've been flying. I flew to five cities. I have five interviews. I have to fly again. I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted. She goes, why are you doing it? You go, cause it's my job. She goes, no, why are you doing it? Why? And you said, I want people to know that I got this job. Cause I worked hard, not because of what my name is. And she said, I'm gonna save you a lifetime of worry. She goes, no matter how hard you work, there are people who are still gonna say that. So you live your life, you do it on your terms. And you're a hard worker by nature. I mean, people aren't gonna outwork you. So when she said that, I felt calm. I was like.

[C]

She goes, jenna, I landed at JFK yesterday. I was the first lady of California. I was a author. I've started a business. I've done every public speaking you can get. And I walked through tsa. And they said, aren't you a Kennedy? She goes, jenna, you're gonna be 80 years old, and that's gonna be what people think. So what are you doing?

[A]

Right?

[C]

And it was a really profound shift for me. It's like, do the things that fill you up. It should be all of us, though. We all do things because of weird motivation.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

You know, like, why are we doing things? But most. And thank God for Hoda. Starting a company that allows us to take a breath. But most of us don't take the time to ask those questions, like, why am I doing this?

[B]

This is amazing. I literally feel like I am. I don't know.

[C]

By the way, this is like our. This is the way we used to talk at 7:30. I'd be like, can you diagnose this?

[A]

So, Chanel, there are a million reasons to admire you. The list is so long. On top of the list is what people heard when we just started this, which is, you are entering this season with heartache. And here you are having this moment in the sun, feeling this.

[B]

Now I'm gonna cry.

[A]

Feeling this joy and knowing that there's a man in heaven looking down at you right now, probably even in this moment, saying, there's my girl. Look what she's doing. How have you navigated these moments given what you're going through? And I have to say, y', all, watching Chanel navigate this was a masterclass. The loss of her husband not many months ago.

[B]

Whew. I think there are a number of ways I could answer this, so I'll just say whatever is in my heart right in this moment. First of all, you know, there are a lot of people who are like, oh, my gosh, you seem better. Or, oh, I'm so glad that you've, you know, you have this new position because now, you know, it's better. You know, people want it to be better sometimes. They want it to be fixed, and they want to know that you're okay. And, you know, there was a part of me that felt like, okay, maybe I'll just give them that. It's not true. But if you want that, sure, if that makes you feel better, to think that I'm better, I'm gonna let you have that. Right. And there's another piece of me that, like, is like, no, maybe it can be a teachable thing for people to know that, no, I'm not better. And I don't know when I'm going to be better, if ever. But what I do know is that I know how I want to be. If I'm, like, on the outside looking in, I'll give you an example. When I came back on the air and they wanted me to go outside my first day back and go on the plaza at 8:30, we go out, you know, and, you know, they got my ear, and they're like, if you don't feel comfortable going out, you don't have to go out. Now here's the reality. Just lost my husband, my kids, you know, and I'm back here on the air. Do I want to go outside? Not really. But the woman I want to be, she would go outside and she would stop and go around. We called around the horn and talk to every person and look at them. And receive what they have to say, because it's just love out there. And so I did. And so with each passing day, that's how I navigate right now. It's like, sometimes I don't feel like getting out of bed. I'm sad, and I miss my husband. But you know what? The woman I want to be and the woman I want my kids to see is that, yes, mommy got up. And she. Not only did she get up, but she started this new opportunity, and she's still trying, and she's still as present as she was was, you know, with us. I talked to a lot. I asked a lot of parents who lost spouses how, you know, what it's been like. And I asked kids who've lost parents, like, what it was like for you. And on the positive end of the spectrum, it was, will my mom or my dad still stay present? And there were moments where she cried or he cried, but they were so honest with us. And on the other end of the spectrum, we never talked about it. I would hear my mom crying or, you know, and so I knew. I'm like, I don't want that for my kids. They still have a long life to live. So that is what I try to do. I try to think of who I want to be, and then I step into it until it becomes my reality. The same way of holding my pen, it's like, and now I'm getting better. It's a part of me. Sometimes people say, oh, I know you probably don't want me to ask about. No, ask me. Because it keeps him alive that way. It keeps him alive for my kids. I get to talk about him. It pained me when I got home yesterday when everything is still. That's when it gets hard. And I couldn't call grandmama and I couldn't call Uche. Like, they're my people. And the two people that I would have called immediately are not here. Even though it's one of the best days of my life, it was still a very painful day. So I hold those two things every day. And I've just learned that that is okay, and that's my truth. And I'm not the only one who carries multiple things, but it doesn't mean we can't get up and we have to give up last thing. There are also days where I say, you know what? I'm staying in bed. I don't get very many of those days. But the other day, I had one, and I thought, my nervous system needs a break. And I gave myself that Day, I watched a whole season of Emily in Paris. You know, I had seaweed and teddy bears, and I enjoyed. And I enjoyed my day.

[A]

You know what's funny? So I'm just having this weird memory of when Kathie Lee lost Frank. And I remember her coming on the air that day, and I remember thinking, you know, you're not ready. You know, I didn't want. I wanted to protect her from whatever. And she spoke just like you spoke here. And it was transformative for other people. And I think of all the years I was with her, that singular day may have been the most impactful, because she was healing, and she was healing others. And I think it's like you pointed out, like, when someone looks up and say, chanel got up and put makeup on. Well, I think I can get up and put makeup on. Things you're not going to hear from every person. But what have you been hearing? Because I think that healing is important to talk about.

[B]

It has been so overwhelming. There's so much love I have seen. And I said it earlier to Savannah when I talked to her those months ago. I have witnessed the best of humanity, especially in the time that we're living in now. A lot of the chatter, you know, on far extremes, it's just noise. And I think it really represents 0.0001% of us. We are good people. We love our families. We want the best for our neighbors. We want the best for our kids. We may disagree on how to get there, but overall, we want the best for each other. And what I know now to be true is that grief knows no color, no gender. It's not blue or red. It doesn't know anything about how much you make. We all feel it. And I have found this common denominator in this club that I do not want to be in. And when I go out on the Plaza, I mean, it doesn't matter whether it's an older woman and she's from Des Moines, or a guy who's from Baltimore. If you know what I'm carrying, it is this common language. And even if you haven't experienced it, your loved one, you combine that with cancer, just in general, and that's another club that I'm in. And so now I don't run from it. I take it as I was never a Girl Scout. I was a Bluebird, like, Hispanic. But I've earned my badge, and you can't take it from me. And I'm proud of it. I'm not proud of what happened. By God, I Wish I could take it all back. But I am proud of how I weathered the storm. And I'm still weathering it. And so when I meet people now, I can hold space for it. Maria told me that. She was like, you're gonna see that you don't run from pain. I used to always try to fix things with people or try to. If you're talking to me and you're having a bad day, I try to fix your day. Now I can't. I can sit with it and be okay. You are a master. You are the definition of how to sit with it.

[A]

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[C]

But maybe you should have asked for more.

[A]

Say hello to the hot panny snack wrap. Now you've really won. Go to McDonald's and get it while you can. I think watching both you guys. Cause you've endured, lost Jenna. I've watched you go through all the difficult things in a public way, which is there's not one day I've walked out with Jenna that someone hasn't said. Let me tell you a story your grandpa told me. And Jenna's like, okay, like it will.

[C]

It kind of became a joke.

[A]

It did. It didn't matter where we were, what we were doing. That was gonna be the topic of conversation.

[C]

Get ready for that.

[A]

But I think that one of the things, I think that makes Jenna special is that she may be one of the best listeners I've ever met. I mean, in terms of Letting people who come up to you tell an entire story or whoever is on the set. And I think you've even been kind of fine tuning that. I feel like it's even more and more when I'm watching you. But tell me about the year of Jenna and friends and what you learned from it. Like, what did you take from that crazy year of, you know, blind dates?

[C]

One I learned because when Hoda was leaving, I was sad. And in fact, I'm very regretful. I'm not regretful of much, but my first word. And I told this to you the other day that came out when she told me she was leaving. Luckily, this was alone in her office.

[B]

Was, no, no.

[C]

Like, Savannah was like, take your wings and fly, my dearest. I'll be sad, but right now, I'm happy for you. Let's read the Bible.

[B]

I was like, no.

[C]

And then it was a long day. For whatever reason, I think we had other stuff. I can't remember. But by the time I was driving home, I called my parents and I was weeping. And my dad thought something was wrong with Hoda. He was like, what is wrong? Like, what's going on? I can't hear you. And I'm like, she's leaving. And he was like, okay, okay. Crazy. But one of the things that I think is really important and I'm like, wonder if this resonates with you is like, we sat, and Hoda hates goodbyes. Hates. Like, if she could, she'd leave me here right now with her purse. I actually did an under and over about how long this would take just cause Hoda likes to Hodini. Okay. And so she sat in this, like, uncomfortable place, I think I can say for her, where everybody said goodbye to her, but also I got to say goodbye. So by the time, like, it was exactly a year ago, nobody's counting that she left and I sat with somebody, knew I was ready. And so what I learned was, like, it's really fun to meet people. And I think I'm stronger than I know yes. Or I knew yes. I don't know. It's like, I feel like I'd be bragging, but I think my forte is.

[A]

Like, making people feel good, feel comfortable.

[C]

But the saying goodbye piece is really important, and we should all try to do it, you know, more.

[A]

And I've admired too, Chanel, how with all the love that's coming, it's hard to sit in it. And when I watched you yesterday on your very first day, which was. I felt like a proud mom. I was watching you guys. And I was like, you know, when, you know, the stewards of the show are going to take it and go. I mean, Kathie Lee and I were there yesterday. Drunky monkey. Don't ask. It was bad.

[B]

But anyway, it wasn't beautiful moment, but.

[A]

To watch how you received and loved and sat in it. And I was thinking about all of that and receiving it and also your children and how they're viewing what mom's doing. So how are they seeing this new chapter for you?

[B]

You know, it's a new chapter in so many ways. Right. Because it's not just a new chapter in my career, it's a new chapter in my life. And so you guys are watching it in real time as I'm living it. So I am, you know, I feel like I'm learning how to fly a plane and flying it at the same time. And Chanel 2.0, as my friends say. Now, I don't know if I would have received it the same way 18 months ago, 24 months ago. I am a changed person. And because I have been through something so horrible and had to witness something that was so, frankly, traumatic, I know now how to just slow down and be with someone. I know how to slow down and receive. It's just the way I approach things has changed. And I think that my kids have seen it too. I say that, but kids won't let you take yourselves too seriously because they don't care. Like, they really don't. I mean, I think I saw that Kyan liked one of my posts yesterday and I was like, because maybe I'm cool, you know? So I know they see it. Cause they're all old enough now and they have it. And don't get social media ever. I'm not mine.

[C]

The toothpaste hanging off as long as I can.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So on my toothpaste attitude. So my kids are all in it. And so Clara said when she got home, she said, not what was the fuss all about, but one of the things. And she was like. And I was like, well, you know, today was this and this and tomorrow's Oprah. And she was like, yeah. Did you ask your boss if you could get. Was it Emma J.

[C]

Or something? Oh, oh, oh, yeah, the hair clip person.

[B]

And I said, what? They want to know the girl who makes these hair clips. Like, I said, Oprah, you know, so it's just. But it just. I'm mom, you know, so in some ways it's humbling.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, I actually was thinking about you this morning. Because, you know, kids don't care. And because I have kids similar age, they were like, they're unbothered. Henry was like, let's cheers, mom, on one year of Jenna and friends. And they were like, we don't want to hear those words ever again. Mom's gonna go on and on about it. So of course, like, my kids barely said a word about it yet. Like, you know, Henry's like, should we ask mom how her day was? And Mila goes, not if she's gonna go on and on about it. But I was like, about you because uche would have been that person for you.

[B]

Correct.

[C]

He would have been the person to say, well, let's cheers, mom.

[B]

Totally. Trust me. I was very well aware of that. Like, when I got home, it was not tough, but just. I'm still trying to process this new reality. And I've never had a win without him. You know, I. Since I was 19. I'm 47, so I don't. I have not done adulting by myself. So it's just. It's tough, you know, and kudos to our family here. You know, Craig sent me something and Al called and, you know, you know, all the crew in Savannah, we talked with a memo board, you know, and so it's like I am scaffolded in love in the midst of it all, and then it just. I have to breathe and, you know, keep moving.

[A]

Who is your 2am phone call? Chanel. Who do you call when you need somebody?

[B]

So I have a girlfriend. I think you guys met Mia.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So one of my best friends. All of my friends are from different moments in my life, from every city I've worked in. I've done the small market journey where you're in, you know, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Springfield, Illinois, Topeka, Kansas. I've done them all. You know, in every city, I have, like, a bestie from that market, and Mia is my bestie from when I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I remember one time I was in Tulsa, I was probably maybe like 23 or 24, and my grandmother got in, like a car accident or something like that. And they called me, said she was in hospital, and I lost it. I mean, I just. And I remember going outside by the live checks, and she grabbed my hands and she just prayed with me and. I mean, 23 year olds praying outside of a TV station is not something you see every day. And she said she's gonna be okay. You get in that car and you drive and you go to Wichita, you know, And I drove two and a Half hours. So then fast forward now I'm 47, and I get the call that she's gone. And she was my first call, and I thought that she was gonna, like, have these, like, wise words or something. She just sobbed with me. Aww. And we just cried together.

[C]

You know, Talia, who was our executive producer, like, the best thing ever and is now our executive producer. When Chanel's week was on, she surprised Chanel with all of her besties. So it was a couch of her cousin, and then a friend from, as Chanel said, every period of her life, like, a mom friend and whatever. And then I got to go meet them afterwards. I had, like, meetings, so they had had some margaritas.

[B]

I was like, I deserve that.

[C]

You deserve that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But then I got to meet all of her friends, and I think it says so much. And we talked about this. When somebody has besties from their whole life, you know, how lucky is that?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

How beautiful that is. And they have lifted you up in every single way.

[B]

Every way. I mean, the days and months after, I didn't think, you know, I worried if I was gonna be able to smile again. You know, I worried if I was gonna be able to laugh again. Like, I was like, well, how am I gonna talk about anything? Cause, you know, I really just couldn't see it. Like, I just didn't know how I wanted it, but I couldn't figure out how I was gonna do it. And so then we just traveled. We did my little restoration tour, and I literally went to Expedia and tried to find warm, beautiful places. And we just started going to warm, beautiful places, and whoever could meet me would come, right. Because everybody else was working. And so we, like, made this, like, Taylor Swift T shirt. Like, it was like, my tour dates, if you want to meet me in Jamaica.

[A]

Oh, that's so cute.

[B]

I love that. Like, all the places, and it's like, okay, I'm going here next. And every place, I had a different girlfriend or two. One of my friends, Carlene. I'm like, how are you in three cities on the tour? Well, Carlene will be anywhere, so. But my girlfriends put me back together again.

[A]

I mean, that's another thing you guys have in common. I was just sitting here thinking of the commonalities. The kids the same age as the besties. I mean, you describing yours, Jenna has two sitting here right here in the studio, and they follow Jenna around wherever she goes. I think you guys are built on such incredible foundation and love.

[C]

The other thing is. And one of the things we bonded on is that both of us had such close relationship with our grandparents.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And that isn't like my kids have already lost one of their grandfathers, you know, and so it isn't. I had my grandparents until I was in my mid-30s. You just lost your grandmama and grandpapa passed.

[B]

I think it was a few years before. And so when you meet again, you meet someone who gets it, you know, And I know that it was a blessing to have them for, but they're an integral part of who we are. Our feisty, saucy grandmothers and all that's in us like that.

[C]

I mean, they taught me to use my voice. And it was the exact same thing for you.

[A]

Yeah. More with Jenna and Chanel after the break. We've all been there. You hold on to a coupon, but forget about it and suddenly it's expired. Expired in 2012. Dang it. Fortunately, by switching to Geico, you could save about $900 on car insurance without ever touching a coupon. It feels good to save big. It feels good to Geico.

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[A]

We're going to end with something that I think you guys brought up, but it's very important to both of you and it's your grandma's grandmama's wisdom, something that, that she maybe imparted in your life that you've carried and because, you know, we see a lot of them in you. So do you wanna start, Jenna?

[B]

Sure, go ahead.

[C]

Sure, I'll start. Well, both of my grandmothers I mean we were named after our grandmothers. And I have a twin sister, so Barbara was named too after that grandma, whom y' all may know. And I was named after Jenna, who nobody knew except for us. And we loved her dearly. And I think when you choose to name somebody something, it's like the most profound first moment. So from the very beginning my parents were saying like these women mean everything to you, they mean everything to us and therefore they'll mean everything to you. And so both of them were very different. My grandma Jenna didn't graduate from college, she went to Texas Tech when it was named something different. But the war broke out and she went to work, never graduated. But she was a lifelong reader and learner. She went to community college in Midland, Texas, till she got her license taken away. Cause she was in her 90s. And then, you know, Barbara Bush lived a very different life. She was first lady, she was a vice president's wife, she traveled the world. So my grandmothers in their own very different way taught both of us, Barbara and me, how to use our voices. And they had very different sounding voices and cadences. My grandma Jenna was quieter. She was a stay at home mom. She lived in the house that my grandpa built. He was a home builder until she moved to the old folks home. Did they say that? The retirement community. And I think like having those two women whom I'm named after, who my sister's named after as the North Star was probably the most transformational thing of my entire life.

[B]

Beautiful, beautiful. That's beautiful.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

And in a similar way, my daughter is Clara Josephine and she's named after her grandmothers. Uche's grandmother was Clara and my grandmother's Josephine. And so the fact that we both agreed that we wanted our daughter to have the names of the women who we loved so much lets you know like how for both of us how special they were. And similarly, my father's mother in Claremore, Oklahoma, she was an educator in a one room schoolhouse. You know, her father was, you know, the first black principal, you know, so trailblazer in her own way, but in a smaller place in Claremore. And then my grandmother was a spitfire, also in education, first woman of color on the school board. And you know, she was married to my grandfather and at the time, you know, Dr. Brown, everybody went to my grandpa. So she certainly didn't have to work and be active, but that's what she wanted to do. And she was known as like the feisty one, right? Like, so whenever I get feisty or Whenever I speak up or whatever, it's like, oh, here comes Joe Brown. That's like the joke. They call me Little Joe Brown or Little Joe. But also even at Uche's funeral, you know, it's supposed to be somewhat of a somber occasion. She's, you know, walking around. Did you hear what she did to Cesar, our boss? Ooh, no wonder you're the boss. Like, oh, you're so handsome. And oh, what's your name? Well, do you work with Chanel and Da Da. You know, she just everywhere she was, you know, so curious about people. And I quietly do the same thing when I meet people. Oh, my gosh, I love your hair. The kids were like, mom, you know, But I'm like, well, no, you should tell people, you know, so just the way I move in a space and the way I carry myself, that's from not only being taught by my grandparents and my grandmother, but just watching them and it becomes how you navigate. And I remember when I lost Uche, I didn't really talk to her about it. Cause at the time, I didn't want to make her sad, which now I realize is just ridiculous, but. But I didn't want to tell her at first, but I watched how she navigated it. And she was married for 71 years to my 18, 17. But I watched her, the way she moved with strength and the way she was gracious with everyone. And so then I embodied that as well. So even when they things, they didn't say just how they moved, you know.

[A]

I think that's beautiful, you guys. I want to say thank you, Jenna, Chanel.

[C]

By the way, this is like my ex boyfriend hanging out with my boyfriend. I was like, I just needed to bring 60 of the others.

[B]

Am I making you jealous? He's like, nope.

[A]

I love you, Chanel. I love you, Jenna. You guys, thank you for coming.

[B]

It's a wrap.

[A]

Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope, I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Allison Berger and Mitch Rissmiller, along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Masterilli. Our audio engineers are Matt Tierney and Joe Plorder. Original music by Jon Estes. Libby Least is the executive vice president of today and Lifestyle. Today's show Radio's producers are Polly Palmieri and Manon Moran. Today Show Radio's audio engineer is Dan Johnson. Today Show Radio imaging and sound by Ryan Sitoi. Tim Johnson is Sirius XM's Vice President of entertainment.

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