Joanna Gaines on Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Staying Grounded

Summary

Podcast Summary: Making Space with Hoda Kotb

Episode Title: Joanna Gaines on Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Staying Grounded
Release Date: July 9, 2025
Host: Hoda Kotb, TODAY
Guest: Joanna Gaines

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Introduction to Joanna Gaines

Timestamp: 02:41

Hoda Kotb warmly welcomes Joanna Gaines to the podcast, highlighting Joanna’s reputation for creating serene and beautiful spaces through her Magnolia brand. Hoda expresses admiration for Joanna’s design skills and her warm, compassionate nature.

Notable Quote:

"Joanna is warm. She is full of life, and I am so glad she's in my world."
– Hoda Kotb (02:41)

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Joanna's Journey into Design

Timestamp: 02:41 - 04:23

Joanna shares that her passion for design did not start in childhood. Unlike many designers who often redecorated their rooms as kids, Joanna never considered decorating until she founded Magnolia in 2003 after her marriage. Initially, Magnolia was a small boutique selling candles and home decor. However, customers frequently asked her to help decorate their homes, which led Joanna and her husband, Chip, to delve deeper into interior design despite her initial lack of experience.

Notable Quotes:

"I was more introverted. So that whole experience was me saying, dear God, give me something."
– Joanna Gaines (03:18)

"Design isn't about something looking pretty. It's about the feeling."
– Joanna Gaines (04:12)

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Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Timestamp: 04:23 - 07:56

Hoda brings up imposter syndrome, a common struggle among highly successful women, and asks Joanna if she has ever felt out of place among formally trained designers. Joanna admits that she did experience self-doubt, especially when their TV show gained national attention. She felt anxious about being judged and doubted her capabilities, particularly concerning design rules and aesthetics.

Notable Quotes:

"When you keep saying, 'You are incredible,' it was actually off-putting because then you're almost putting yourself down."
– Joanna Gaines (06:40)

"You have to step up above it and say, no, this isn't about that."
– Joanna Gaines (07:14)

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Balancing Perfectionism and Family Life

Timestamp: 07:56 - 16:21

Joanna delves into her perfectionistic tendencies, tracing them back to her childhood experiences of feeling different in a small Kansas town. She discusses how these early insecurities have evolved into a drive for excellence in her work without being overly critical of herself. Joanna emphasizes using her perfectionism positively in her projects while ensuring it doesn’t negatively impact her self-worth.

Regarding parenting, Joanna shares her approach to managing her children's use of technology. She sets clear boundaries, such as restricting internet access while allowing phone calls and specific games. This strategy stems from her desire to prevent mindless scrolling and encourage meaningful interactions.

Notable Quotes:

"I never wanted to project, like a judgment on anybody. We make up weird little rules."
– Joanna Gaines (16:21)

"Boredom is probably a very healthy thing to actually sit in it and be okay with doing nothing."
– Joanna Gaines (19:27)

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Navigating Work-Life Balance and Soul Care

Timestamp: 16:21 - 28:34

Joanna discusses a pivotal moment last year when she felt her soul was weary from running Magnolia for nearly 25 years. Recognizing the signs of burnout, she and Chip took a three-month hiatus to focus on their well-being. During this period, Joanna engaged in "soul care" practices such as journaling, gardening, and spending quality time with her family. This break allowed her to reconnect with her purpose and rejuvenate her passion for her work.

Notable Quotes:

"Soul care is so important. For me, it truly is grounding myself in who I am, in God, that's the strength that I have."
– Joanna Gaines (28:04)

"We have to make space and have that intention, because life happens."
– Joanna Gaines (36:15)

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Reconnecting with Purpose and Vision

Timestamp: 28:34 - 37:34

After the hiatus, Joanna felt restored and ready to lead Magnolia with renewed clarity. She explains how grounding herself in her "why" helped her regain vision and direction for the business. Joanna emphasizes the importance of intention in both personal and professional life, stating that making space for meaningful moments is essential for sustained growth and fulfillment.

Notable Quotes:

"This whole thing of Magnolia, as Elle and I were in there, I got this, like, whole kind of drop down. I felt like from heaven."
– Joanna Gaines (36:15)

"If you don't make space and you don't have that intention, life happens."
– Joanna Gaines (36:51)

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Maintaining Strong Relationships

Timestamp: 37:34 - 43:26

Joanna highlights the strength of her relationship with Chip, attributing their success to mutual support and understanding. She describes how they complement each other’s personalities—her introspection balances Chip’s extroversion. This dynamic fosters a supportive environment where both can thrive professionally and personally.

Notable Quotes:

"When I step back, you asked how did it. When I came back, you were on fire."
– Joanna Gaines (36:51)

"He’s like the angel on your shoulder here in my head."
– Joanna Gaines (40:37)

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Creating Space for Renewal

Timestamp: 43:26 - 44:18

In closing, Joanna shares her strategy for maintaining balance by designating specific days for creativity and family. By planning “fill up” days where she engages in gardening, cooking, and creative activities at home, Joanna ensures she remains grounded and inspired for her work at Magnolia.

Notable Quotes:

"Those Tuesday Thursdays, those home days are truly what refuel me for the work that I do."
– Joanna Gaines (42:57)

"I love being creative because I feel like the work I do at the office is output. What am I putting back in?"
– Joanna Gaines (43:08)

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Conclusion and Takeaways

In this insightful episode, Joanna Gaines candidly discusses her journey through imposter syndrome, the importance of soul care, and maintaining a healthy work-life balance. She emphasizes the significance of intention in creating meaningful spaces both personally and professionally. Joanna’s experiences offer valuable lessons on resilience, self-discovery, and the power of supportive relationships.

Key Lessons:

• Overcoming Self-Doubt: Embracing imperfections and focusing on the emotional impact of design rather than societal standards.
• Soul Care: Prioritizing mental and spiritual well-being to prevent burnout and maintain long-term success.
• Work-Life Balance: Establishing clear boundaries and designated times for family and personal interests to stay grounded.
• Supportive Relationships: Building strong, complementary partnerships that facilitate personal and professional growth.

Final Thought:
Joanna Gaines’ story is a testament to the strength of the human spirit and the importance of making intentional space for growth, change, and meaningful connections in our lives.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to the provided transcript and facilitate easy reference to specific parts of the conversation.

Transcript

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[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, I want you to close your eyes for a moment. Except, of course, if you're driving. But for those of you who are not behind the wheel, close those eyes and I'm going to say a name, and I want you to visualize what comes to your mind. Okay? You ready? Joanna Gaines. Isn't it unbelievable that her name alone can drum up all of these beautiful and calm and so soothing spaces? Joanna brings to a room, a house, an office, what so many of us want in our lives. Serenity. Joanna and her husband Chip's incredible taste for design and interior has made them one of TVs and life's most coveted designers. Their Magnolia brand has catapulted them into the stratosphere. But let me tell you this. Behind the TV lights, the ratings, and the aesthetic, which, by the way, I do love the is some good old Southern hospitality. Joanna is warm. She is full of life, and I am so glad she's in my world. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space. First of all, I want to say I love you and I think you're an incredible human. But when I watch your design skills in action, all I was thinking about was, where did she learn it? How did it come to her? Did you like. No. Did you study? Honestly, were you that way as a kid?

[Joanna Gaines]

Like, what happened was not that way as a kid. It's actually quite humorous because, you know, you always hear people who are designers. They're like, I redid my room. All I didn't. When you were a kid.

[Hoda Kotb]

Now?

[Joanna Gaines]

No, I never even thought about decorating or. I mean, I had, like a. I had, like, kitty cat posters everywhere, but that's all I can remember. So for me, when I think back to it, it really started. I started Magnolia in 2003, the year when I got married. And it was really just like, a little boutique. I was putting, like, candles and home decor. And even if you saw the home decor, then I was, I can't. Hilarious.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

But people would come in the shop and say, can you help decorate my home? And I would go into their homes, Hoda and I, you want to talk about, like, truly no idea what I was doing and completely faking it. I would step in, and I remember just clinching my legs. Like, what am I going to say? What am I? And I was. You know, I'm more introverted. So that whole experience was me saying, dear God, give me something. Like, literally praying, God, I need something, because I have something. I have no idea. And I would just start saying things, and half the time I'm like, this is.

[Hoda Kotb]

This is not.

[Joanna Gaines]

But what I realized in that practice of saying, yes, I'll come to your house. I'll help you. A. They were super patient, and they acted it like they liked it. But that idea of saying yes and the practice is what finally, I mean, years later, got me to hone in on, you gotta go deeper. Design isn't about something looking pretty.

[Hoda Kotb]

What is it about?

[Joanna Gaines]

It's about the feeling. And so literally the first month I would do this, I would say, well, what do you want to feel like? Because I didn't know how to help.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's good.

[Joanna Gaines]

I didn't know how to help. They said, I want this style. I'd have to, like, research what that style even was.

[Hoda Kotb]

So what do you want it to feel like?

[Joanna Gaines]

What do you want it to feel like? And so that's what I always based my designs on. And even now, even what I know about design, that doesn't help me when I go into space. What really helps is what do you want it to feel like? What is the space needing to be? And when you couple that, you can really create something meaningful.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you had that essence. You knew how to connect with people. But there are people in the design business, as in any business, that went to all the schools and did all the things and have all the credentials and all of that stuff. Did you ever feel like, oh, God, like, what am I even doing in this group?

[Joanna Gaines]

I. I would say, of course. Especially when, you know, you get a call from a production company. I had a friend that, like, Sneakily put photos of our house up. But she was. I was doing it for my little blog. Like, a before and after of her house. She submitted it to this famous, like, blogger, and a production company saw it, and they called and said, hey, would you and your husband be interested in doing, like, a show for a network? No idea who it was.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wait, what?

[Joanna Gaines]

We didn't have a tv, so even hearing, you know, on tv, we were like, what does that even mean? Like, where? And so that's kind of how it all started. And when the cameras came on, I remember the first season, Hoda, Chip and I really were like, oh, maybe Waco will see the show. Maybe our parents will see. We never thought, like, it'd be a national thing. Like, literally thought it'd be in, like, a little pocket.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

So the first season, I wasn't thinking, like, oh. The second season, when I realized it had gotten traction and people had noticed it, I would have this phobia of, like, oh, I'm gonna get judged. I bet I'm judged. I bet I don't have the right size rug, because I envied the idea that I didn't know the rules of discomfort.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you just did your thing.

[Joanna Gaines]

I did my thing. But then I started feeling like, oh, no, it's. The truth is gonna come out.

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, let's talk about that thing, because what you're talking about, too, is something I had. You have. I still have it. And so many women who are wildly successful have it. And it's called imposter syndrome. It's like you don't know if you. If you belong, although you're there. It's like Jacinta Ardern, who's the former prime minister of New Zealand, said while she was there she had imposter syndrome. Melinda Gates, Audra McDonald, the list goes on and on and on and on. It's like you don't feel like you belong. Was there a point where you're like.

[Joanna Gaines]

Okay, you know, I think the point was Chip saying, I need. I don't want to hear this anymore.

[Hoda Kotb]

Is that what he said?

[Joanna Gaines]

He was like, joe, you are incredible. And so when you keep saying. Saying that, it. It's actually off putting that, because then you're. You're.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's almost putting yourself down.

[Joanna Gaines]

The confidence, Joe, that you have to rise up for this moment when you have that. It was almost like this false humility. I don't know what it was, but it became this, like, crutch. Well, just in case. I don't know. And I feel like There is. There's that apologetic thing in us, you know, so I'll say it still creeps up.

[Hoda Kotb]

Same with me.

[Joanna Gaines]

Said it still creeps up. But I do feel like there is something about learning it this way. I do love, like, the idea of I could have gone to school, the knowledge I have. A lot of the girls on my team went to school for design, and so I love that they have the knowledge of that. So how do you do the knowledge and the feeling and then create that? So it's something that's always in us. It's always in there. So you gotta immediately, when you feel it, step up above it and say, no, this isn't about that. It really isn't. When I'm creating a space, it isn't for someone to notice it and say, oh, she. She's doing better, or she deserves that, or she knows what she's doing. It's really. That's not why I do this. And so then once you know that.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, who cares? That's it. So you talk about Chip helping you, helping build your life.

[Joanna Gaines]

She's my life coach. He's your life coach. He really is.

[Hoda Kotb]

From the beginning. Okay, let's take Chip out of the equation. Golly. There's just Joanna.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'll tell you why Joanna is gonna go on her path. Where would you wind up?

[Joanna Gaines]

I would be in a cubicle with those. You know, I've always loved the cubicles that have, like, the push P. And you can do your little life in the cubicle. And I would be a bookkeeper. I wouldn't be an accountant because I wouldn't have made it in school for that. I would have been a bookkeeper for a business who just needed someone to, like, plug in numbers.

[Hoda Kotb]

Are you being 100% serious?

[Joanna Gaines]

I love crunching numbers.

[Hoda Kotb]

You do.

[Joanna Gaines]

And I always tell Chip, oh, sometimes my dream job is just to be in a cubicle. And just like I used to, because I did it for my dad for 10 years at his tire shop. I crunched his numbers. I did all his bookkeeping. I was really good at it. But it was that or it was broadcast journalism.

[Hoda Kotb]

Because you were in local news.

[Joanna Gaines]

Went to school for broadcast journalism. And the first. My first internship here in New York, the first day, I was like, maybe I don't want to do broadcast journalism. As a fifth year senior, I had studied it for five years.

[Hoda Kotb]

And you just. What hit you? What was it that landed that way?

[Joanna Gaines]

The idea that you had to find beautiful people who did awful things was kind of, what. What you hear, like, that's what the public wants to see. And was like, oh, you know, maybe like, right off the bat. And this is not everybody.

[Hoda Kotb]

No, but I understand.

[Joanna Gaines]

But news is. We get it. Like, oh, you gotta have that thing, that hook. And I think I was just inundated with stories, and I was like, oh, wait, this isn't maybe for me.

[Hoda Kotb]

I make you feel good.

[Joanna Gaines]

I won't carry it well. I think other people can carry it. Well, I don't. I think I feel too much where it was just like, I couldn't turn it off.

[Hoda Kotb]

And it's also interesting because you called yourself an introvert in some ways.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

That you would have studied that for those years, because that was about to send you.

[Joanna Gaines]

Well, that's fascinating to me because when I think about the. The broadcast journalism, the first thing I think of is a teleprompter.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

If I always. My biggest nightmare would be if the teleprompter stopped working, I wouldn't say a word. I'd be like. And then I already had, like, this idea of, like, I'd fall out, like, I fainted. And that was interesting to me because I. At the time, I was such a quiet person, and I was okay with people telling me what to say. And then I would just put on the act or the show. And again, that's not broadcast journalism for me. That's how I saw it.

[Hoda Kotb]

I saw it.

[Joanna Gaines]

I would show up at a desk and read it and do my job, where one thing I loved, anytime we'd come see y', all, it was this. There's just so much more than that.

[Hoda Kotb]

So much more.

[Joanna Gaines]

But in my mind, it was all set. I'll look polished. I'll say the right thing, and that's my job. And I think there is something to that about something I was going through or something I was trying to prove. Trying to prove. And now I look back and, like, that would have been. I can tend to be more robotic sometimes. That's worried. My coach, Chip, is always like, joe, stop that. I can go through the motions and say, I'm done and move on. And I think it's fascinating that I think I was highly insecure at that moment in my life as a college girl that to me, security felt like, you tell me what to say, do my hair and makeup, and I'll say the thing and I'll nail it. And, you know, I'm like, there was something deeper.

[Hoda Kotb]

What about the perfection piece of life, which is just like, what you were saying. I want to be Done. I want to feel this. I want to be polished. I want to read it right. I want to be perfect. How does that carry through? Because that's something that's tricky to live with, and I don't know if you have that. Do you have perfectionism now? I do.

[Joanna Gaines]

I do. It's a thing that, you know, Chip and I, we love to connect in the morning about coffee, and we'll always talk about these, like, things. And I'm like, you know, even though I feel like I can jump over that, it's always in me. Just like you said. Some of these thoughts, you're like, okay, it's still there, but it's learning how to not stay there too long. I wonder sometimes about this perfectionistic mindset. Did that develop early on when I felt like I had to be something other than myself to appear in a way where I was accepted because I didn't feel like who I was was good enough? So then I remember, at point, some six years old, I just remember that shift of going, I've got to be somebody else at six. It's just, you know, and I feel like we all go through this in some way, shape or form. But, you know, with the kids, I was half Korean. We were in a small little town in Kansas, and I was the only one that looked different. And you heard about. I heard about it every day at the lunch table. So in those moments, that shift in my mind was, you have to be something else. And I think that little seed so started that idea of, okay, this isn't good enough. So now do this.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's really.

[Joanna Gaines]

But the way I use it for good.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

Tell me. When I think about my life, even as like, a college student and my body and my everything, like, you know, we're always trying to perfect something. And I remember in college, I struggled with that with just, like, eating and issues with that. Like, I couldn't control life, so I could control this, you know? You hear those stories. Sure. But for me now, it's like, I like to use that on a project, like, on a home. Not that I'm trying to create a perfect home, but, okay, I can see what this can be. And it's not perfect, but I can see how to refine it, how to make it excellent. And then I'm gonna build towards that, so I use that energy for the work I do. That's good.

[Chip Gaines]

That's good.

[Joanna Gaines]

But I don't do it to myself.

[Hoda Kotb]

How did you. Because our kids pick up our habits, even if we're teaching Them another habit. Cause I do that with my kids. I think I'm teaching them, but I'm showing them another 100%.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

How did you navigate with raising your children so they didn't pick up that. Oh, is that just. So put that up, you know, or whatever those things might be.

[Joanna Gaines]

That was like an early moment for me when my kids were little, when I remember designing this house that we were all living in. And it was this historic house in this beautiful neighborhood. And I remember the local magazine was like, when you're done, we'd love to feature it. This is before the show. And I remember in my mind, I was like, oh, my house can be in a magazine. And so I designed it for the shooting. Didn't even think. I was like, I'm gonna make it. So they do the shoot and then a couple weeks go by and it was this weird moment where it was like an out of body experience where I stepped into the living room, I saw all four of my kids, and I could tell they didn't know how to interact with the space. They didn't know how to be home. And that switched for me. And it's never been the same, which is like, I will never design again for a shoot or for the end, for the. It's. I have to do this for my family. And that's where everything started clicking for me as a designer. That there's got to be intention, there's got to be this practical sense, but it can also be beautiful. Yeah, but it was. I never wanted my kids to feel like this house is not down to earth. Right.

[Hoda Kotb]

You can't live in it. How do we live in it?

[Joanna Gaines]

I've just always wanted them to feel comfortable.

[Hoda Kotb]

How about your kids and their own behaviors? You know, like, here's. I mean, this is a silly one, but I always tell my kids, phones are terrible. Nobody needs them. They're a waste. And I'm like this, okay, just five minutes. Five minutes.

[Chip Gaines]

Just.

[Hoda Kotb]

But what am I doing?

[Joanna Gaines]

What am I saying?

[Hoda Kotb]

So, like, modeling the behavior and trying. But. And I do want to ask you about phones too, because I think you have an interesting perspective.

[Joanna Gaines]

I mean, I love being honest with my kids when I screw up. Oh, you do? Because I feel like in the past, the way I would have parented was, oh, I messed up. How do I, you know, where now it's like, man, I feel like the more I apologize and the more I'm like, I'm saying one thing, but I. Maybe I'm not showing you this.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you say It.

[Joanna Gaines]

I will say it. Put it out there.

[Podcast Producer]

That's good.

[Joanna Gaines]

Where I think the old me would have just put under the rug. Maybe they didn't notice. I think for me, it's. I've just learned to also explain. A lot of my work is on the phone. Like, a lot of the emails and so how do I. How do I. You know, when I come home from work, I'm always like, okay, I'll just leave it in the car. How do I. Yes, but it is a discipline. I mean, because work is this in so many ways. But I apologize more often than not now because I. Yeah, I feel like I screw up a lot, for sure.

[Hoda Kotb]

What are your. What's your rule with kids and phones? Because this is such a hot topic. I mean, we're doing. We're trying to do a. Wait till 8th grade. Some people want to go beyond that. Like, what's your general rule?

[Joanna Gaines]

I. I never want to project, like a judgment on anybody. You know what I mean? I feel like we all do it in such unique ways. That's right. For our family and for our kids, we like to make up weird little rules. So with phones, it was when they turned 13. And we disable this. The Web. The World Wide Web. So they have a phone, they can contact us, but they can't get on the Internet.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay. So it's just to dial in and out.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yeah. And to text and they can do games for certain. Which. And I'm so, you know, I'm like, oh, here we go. I'm going to hear it from the people. But to me, you know, I always think about, man, when we were little, when we were. If we would have access to the Internet, God.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, God, would have been crazy.

[Joanna Gaines]

And so why do we think their brains are ready for any search, any accidental whatever.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Joanna Gaines]

Where we have this home computer at home, it's facing out. You need to get on it. There it is. Let us know. What do you need? But on their phones, there's no sitting and scrolling for hours or searching because we all know sometimes where that leads. Right. So you can get a phone when you're 13. And so social media and the Internet until you're 18. I'm sorry, my kids, 18, girl.

[Hoda Kotb]

Do you think. Is anybody sneaking? Is there like a ghost account? Did they do anything sneaky?

[Joanna Gaines]

No, no, not. And people say, oh, they're sneaky. I mean, no. I'm like, what I love is, like, when I come home, my kids, if they're like, can I see what's going on? I'll let them get on mine.

[Hoda Kotb]

So take a look. Okay.

[Joanna Gaines]

I would like to say they're not sneaky. I mean, my kid, we're pretty, we're pretty open. So I feel like for us, we explain the why I get your friends. I get that everyone's got accounts and that's actually how you connect. And in high school that's how you do it. You're just. And my, I mean my kids kind of turned it. They feel good that they don't need it. I guess they're like, there's nothing like, like my son said, you know what I'm scared of when I'm 18 to get it as I see all my friends and we're out and they're all down their phones going like this. He just, this is the thing. He's like, I don't even know if I want it when I'm 18 because I don't want to turn into that. And it's true. I mean, you see the kids these days, that's how they inter. They're together, but they're all doing their own thing and they're showing each other which you know, in some ways that can be fun, like to show funny videos.

[Hoda Kotb]

But there's a point.

[Joanna Gaines]

It's robbing a social scale.

[Hoda Kotb]

But wait the fact, just to put a fine point on what you just said, your 8 year kid says when he's 18, he may not want you, he may not. That is, that's profound and big.

[Joanna Gaines]

And so I'm like. And my kids are all, they like to be unique in their own way. And maybe it's the way I don't, I have no idea. But I feel like for us, social media, I think about all the things that we as adults feel as a 40, how am I 47? That I can tend to feel when I get off of it.

[Chip Gaines]

Yes.

[Joanna Gaines]

How do you pull that together as a 13, 14, 15 year old? And I, I think some kids can do it. Great. I'm not again, I'm not trying to project anything, but it's difficult. But in our family we say we live on a farm, we have this beautiful life. Get outside. If you even have an inkling to be bored.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

Then you're not doing something right.

[Hoda Kotb]

What do you say when they say.

[Joanna Gaines]

I'm bored, Mom, you're not allowed to say you're bored.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

And boredom is probably a very healthy thing to actually sit in it and be okay with doing nothing.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

But if you're bored and you want to go do something like mindless and again, mindlessness isn't bad. But I say we always say go outside. There's no sense of being this place.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah, go outside.

[Joanna Gaines]

Something you're not bored.

[Hoda Kotb]

More with Joanna Gaines after the break.

[Joanna Gaines]

When work gets crazy, I like to stop by the.

[Hershey's Representative]

Bar after, have a few cold ones.

[Joanna Gaines]

I don't drink at all until 4 o'. Clock.

[Hoda Kotb]

We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.

[Hershey's Representative]

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[Hoda Kotb]

So I was telling you about Jacinta Ardern, who's the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, and she was talking about how people were asking her when she was in power. They were saying, can you be a mother? Because she just found out she was pregnant right when she was prime minister was like surprise. How can you be a mother and an effective Prime Minister at the same time? A job that's all Consuming. And she came back to work after six weeks, although she was the one advocating for six months for maternity. But she said for others, yes, she goes for me for this particular job. I'm going to come back early. Now the question that a lot of women, all of us have is, can I be a great mother and a great worker or to be truly great at something, do you need to have the scales tipped? Wow. How are you going to like, Simone Biles is Simone Biles because she focused on the thing. So I wonder if you thought about, like, because you have done obviously incredibly well at both things, how or how did that even work?

[Joanna Gaines]

I think women are fascinating in that we can carry a lot. I have a friend who, since she's been married, she stayed home, she had babies early. She's been a stay at home mom for 12 years and she's going to get a job. And she's like so nervous. She's like, only thing I can write on my resume is I am a stay. And I'm like, I would hire a stay at home mom in a heartbeat. You're a problem solver, you're a peacemaker, you can multitask. Like, I'm like, you're the most valuable person. I would hire you in a second. So I centered her hr. I was like, hire her. I want her. And I think as women, we have this ability to multitask. We have this ability to. I try not to do the whole, like, I leave home and then shut off and then I go to work because it's all in me. It's like a braid.

[Chip Gaines]

Yes.

[Joanna Gaines]

I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I'm a founder. So all those things are in me at all times. And I just think for me and the life that I have, I feel like I have this gift of I can carry. I feel like I can carry a lot. I always tell Chip, I feel like my arms are strong for these tasks. I feel like I'm built for this. I do tell my kids, I ask them all the time, do you want me, do you want me to be a full time stay at home mom all the time? Because I'm always in, like, am I just counseling? And, you know, I asked my girls, are you, do you want to be? What do you, what do you see with this life? Because, you know, and again, when they were younger, I tried to be more present, but now that they're all in school, it's like I have that moment while they're at school to go tackle all the things so it's just that balance. But what my girls have said is, you. You've shown us that we can do more than one thing.

[Chip Gaines]

Wow.

[Joanna Gaines]

And that's what I just want to show my girls, that if your passion is to stay at home with your children, go in all in. That's actually the best gift in the world. That's the best, best job.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

If you want to be able to try to do a job, a company and your children, I believe they can, because we're strong, we're women. We can do this. I don't know. I just so. And I also know, you know, my brain, I get inspired when I'm at the office. I get inspired for something I'm going to cook at home for the meal for my kids. I actually have a new energy when I'm with them. Where five for me when I'm home all day. I think I need maybe the diversity in my life to feel inspired for work. I have to be grounded at home and to be, you know, so it works for my life. It works for your life, the way that you're shaping this for yourself.

[Chip Gaines]

Yes.

[Joanna Gaines]

I feel like being, you know, self employed, it comes with a lot of weight, but it also comes with the privilege of getting to kind of dictate what is priority versus just showing up every day. And you can't work around that, you know, so there's a give and take there. We have a lot of weight. We have sleepless nights.

[Chip Gaines]

Yes.

[Joanna Gaines]

But we also can carve out our schedule in a way that makes it work better for us. As mothers.

[Hoda Kotb]

What do you do? And I felt this at work when I was working at the Today show and other places too, where you're just buried and you are exhausted and you are like, you're making it and we're doing it, but you want everything just to stop.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

And those are, you know, hard decisions to know whether you should jump or whether you should take a break or whether you should. If you even can, or how do you do it? So did you have a moment where you were, like, up to your neck and saying it's time to hit the brakes?

[Joanna Gaines]

Yeah, it was last year exactly this time. And, you know, Chip and I have been doing this for almost 25 years now. Just Magnolia building. Magnolia and all that. I say she Magnolia. All that she's become. Yeah, it's been a lot of exciting, hard work. I always in the morning, I. When I think about, like, soul, you know, I was thinking about this because you are so full of joy and someone asked Me the other day, what makes you happy? And I feel like happy is like a luxury. Happy is like a mood. It's like, I feel happy today or, oh, yeah, yeah. These flowers make me happy. But that's like. It feels like it's up here. When I think of joy, though, I think it's something we carry.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes, yes.

[Joanna Gaines]

And that. That comes more from soul. And for me, one practice I've had for a very long time, I think started this in high school, was this idea of tapping deeper, beyond the heart, but in the soul. And so I'm saying all this because as I've gotten older, I try to do this, like, radar check on myself. Like, is my soul feeling tired? Oh, that's good. Is my soul feeling weary? And I've never let it get to that point until last year where I was just exhausted. And for me, normally the high level question is, if you feel tired, what do you do? I go ground myself in good things. I get my hands busy, whether that's in dough. When I'm making something for my family, I'm in the garden and I'm working in the dirt. I'm doing flower. Like, that grounds me. And that creative work, that output, then I get this creative input. So I feel like it's a nice little balance.

[Chip Gaines]

I like that.

[Joanna Gaines]

But the soul thing is different. And I feel like we get to a place in our life where we didn't tend to our soul, and then we just feel weary, and that's a harder thing to recover from. That's not a week or a weekend away, and then your soul's recovered.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

And I realized last year, I'm feeling weary. My time soul is feeling tired. And so Chip just said, okay, we're calling it. We're putting the brakes on. We're not going to work for three months. I freaked out because I was like, we. What is our team? What are we gonna do?

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

And so we took three months off, our first time in 25 years, to take time away from that. We stepped away, we stayed home. And it took every bit of that. We met with people. We did, like, I call it, like, soul care.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tell me. That's so interesting.

[Joanna Gaines]

They would say, go find things where you're just lingering and you're quiet and you're. And I would. That's where I got into, like, pressing flowers. And I was just by myself. And I would just do mindless work, but it would fill my tank. And that three months, whether it was with my kids, if I was with Chip, we were traveling or I was just by myself. It filled my tank. So there's that caution I have in my spirit of how's your soul is your soul. I don't want to get to that point again. And so my daily discipline is that soul care, waking up, journaling, how we doing? It's really a me and God thing. I will write everything down, every insecurity, every fear, and then what I love is he'll come back with every truth on top of those. And that's what sets me up every day. So for me, it's like when I think about our souls, they're deep wells and we just, we can't forget about them. And so I don't remember your question, Hoda. My answer is like, soul care is so important. And so for every one of us, it's different. For me, it truly is grounding myself in who I am, in God, that's the strength that I have. It's nothing surface. It's really this like deep internal knowing of who I am and why I'm here that gets me going every day.

[Hoda Kotb]

That is so beautiful and deep. We'll be right back with more from Joanna Gaines after this.

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[Hoda Kotb]

You're talking about those three months. Whenever you take time, whoever. If you could take a day off, let's say, or even an afternoon off, it's like, what do you do with that precious time? Because you could have taken three months and watched Netflix and hung out and been like, I just didn't need to work. But after a while, that's not filling any tank at all. But I like that there was intention in the three months. It was like, we have a little mini plan. We're going to do something that's going to fill us. Because that sometimes I find myself thinking I'm getting recharged when I take a week off or something, but I'm not.

[Joanna Gaines]

It was like, your soul really didn't get any rest. Yeah.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

And again, that's what I think we have to tap into more. I think we think of, like, heart and mind. We kind of think of between here and here, and it feels quick and we can fill that fast. It's. This is the harder work from here to here. And I don't even know if my soul, but I feel like my soul's in my gut. Where is my soul? I don't know, but I feel it right here. But it was. I got off social media for three months. I had someone else doing my account. It was like anything that kind of robs me from what's right in front of me. I pushed away and just said, I want to learn something new. I want to do something creative. I want to do things with the kids and just sit, just sit, just sit.

[Hoda Kotb]

Watch them. How was it coming back after those three months? What did that feel like?

[Joanna Gaines]

I was ready. And this all started because a lot of our team was saying, chip and Joe, what's next? This was last year. And in our minds were like, what do you mean, what's next? We feel as though the silos are there. And what we realized for our team, even if what's next is nothing, they needed to vision. And I was just so tired. We'd been building this thing for 20 plus years. And so when I heard what's next, I'd just kind of be like a little bit like, don't worry about it. What's next has never been something I've planned. It's come, like, intuitively. And I love that kind of pure way that vision has come to us for our business. And not that I've strived for it, but then I started realizing, man, if someone was really wanting to know what's next, I can't see. And it's the first time I couldn't see in the future because I was so tired. I couldn't see. I had no vision. So it was three months of not necessarily trying to find vision because that felt too hard. Like, I was like, I'm not taking off to find vision, or I want to get rest. But I wanted to remember why we're doing this. And so that three months was a lot of soul searching. Why did you start? Why did you say yes to this? And this is like getting back to the intention, getting back to the foundation. And it was a beautiful practice for me. My oldest daughter, ella, who's now 18, she happened to be in a lot of the meetings where she could tell I was getting tired. Cause she was interning with me and she could see it. And so she wanted to kind of go on this journey with me. One of my favorite moments was in the summer, I said, let's have a lock in. Let's have a lock in at the office, just me and you. And you are gonna be my whiteboard. She loves to write. So I had two whiteboards in my office. We brought our stuff, we spent the night. And I was literally like, okay, I wanna understand. What am I holding? What is our business? And so she would frown all the things. Okay, now why am I doing this? She'd take notes. And so for two days, we were in my office, stuck. And I told. I really told God. And I don't give God mandates. I really have learned you don't do that. But there's, like, maybe three very specific visions he's given me in my life about Magnolia. One was opening it. One was shutting it down for season when my kids were 4 and under and I needed to be home. And then one was the silos. When he said, this is the place, I was driving by it. I felt like he said, turn around. Go look at it. And I said, no, I gotta get to the office. I finally said, well, you don't really tell God no. So I turned around, I stood there, and I was like. And I saw it. I saw the shop, I saw the bakery. I saw the turf. I saw people walking. I saw life. And I heard him say, you need to bring this thing back to life. So I feel like I had Three very key moments in our business where I felt his presence and his direction, and I hadn't felt anything from that was like 20, maybe 12. I was like, God, maybe it's time for something, you know? And I didn't get a clear vision, but I got a clear meaning. Like, this whole thing of Magnolia, as Elle and I were in there, I got this, like, whole kind of drop down. I felt like from heaven. Which is what we do at Magnolia is we make space for meaningful moments in people's lives and in their homes. And that became my filter. I needed a filter because there was so many things we could do.

[Hoda Kotb]

And that's clear.

[Joanna Gaines]

And I had clarity on. We get to not just create meaningful moments. We can create space. Because that's the part is if you don't make space and you don't have that intention, life happens. So is it making space at the table? Is it making space for a moment of, you know, so for. For me, in that moment, we wrote it down, I left with that clarity. That's all I needed, is I'm doing something special. I'm doing good work. Chip and I are doing good work together. And then all of a sudden, you start getting vision. And now I can't put it back in a box. Now I'm like, oh, shoot, now my team's probably regretting it, because when I step back, you asked how did it.

[Chip Gaines]

How.

[Joanna Gaines]

When I came back, you were on fire. Journals of like, what if we do this? What if we. And that's it. It's just like, when you can ground yourself in why you do the work you do, everything that comes from it, which is what I sense from you in this new season that you're in. It's like you can't contain it. No, there's not containing vision. It's. I'm sorry. This may be overwhelming.

[Hoda Kotb]

It may be a lot for everybody, but it's coming out.

[Joanna Gaines]

And that is like. That's like the best thing I love.

[Hoda Kotb]

First of all, I love that you had such a clear message from God. I've wanted this myself sometimes. How do you know if it's a big part of you saying, I can see it, or how can you tell for yourself if it's God or if it's the deep knowing within you?

[Joanna Gaines]

I typically know myself and my thoughts, they're typically negative, not super motivating. So anytime it's like that, I'm like, well, that's definitely not Jojo. I mean, I'm not like you or just Joy wells out of my so anytime it's peace, it's more that peace that's interesting, where I just have a peace. It's like this crazy peace that I can't explain. I just feel like that's. And what I love about God is I feel like God was like, Joe. Really? What he kind of told me is because of that perfectionistic mindset, God, I'm not going until I hear it. And what I heard him say that summer was, no matter where you go, I'm with you. So it didn't mean there's a right answer or that God's gonna say, do this like he did with Moses. Instead, he said, if you trust me, I'm with you. So it felt like a grown up moment with me and God where he was like, where do you want to go? Let's go. Instead of. This is exactly what you know, as I was young, I always thought that's how God worked, was like, you have to do it or you're in trouble.

[Chip Gaines]

Like that.

[Joanna Gaines]

And. And I felt like God and his kindness was like, what do you want to do? I'm with you. Don't fear, I'm with you. We got this. And so that dropped the weight of having to have a specific vision. It's like, let's go, God, let's go. What are we gonna do?

[Hoda Kotb]

What are we doing?

[Joanna Gaines]

Me, you and Chip, the kids, like, let's go. And I feel like that feels different than I have to know what's next, and then I'm gonna go there. This feels a little more free.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love it. I feel like you have so many beautiful relationships in your life that you nurture. I mean, obviously your kids, Chip, your business, your friendships, all the other things. The relationship with Chips, how. Because everything takes time to. You gotta keep putting stuff in the bank. Given the way that everything is kooky, where is he on the list, you know? And how do you keep that tank full for him?

[Joanna Gaines]

Chip and I, from the beginning, we've just only known to work together. That's what we've only. And we drive together. We're kind of, you know, in the mornings, he always wakes up before me and I can smell the coffee and I don't want to get up, but I know he wants to connect. I mean, he's so good at that. I'm like. So in the mornings, we'll connect, get the kids ready, we drive to work together. We're just. We try to be together.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

But I feel like for me, I kind of know I'm my best with him. Even though I am quiet and at times to talk to someone back and forth, sometimes for me to process, actually, it means there needs to be silence. And Chip is a talker, but what I realize all he's doing is he's trying to just pull it out of me and let me process. And it's a safe place to process. But for me, I always like to process and then talk. And so he also values the. When I get alone time and then I get back, he's like, something feels different. What happened? And I'm like, I got. I got a moment with God and I grounded myself, so. But I. I feel my best with him. He's just like that positive. He's like the angel on your shoulder here me in my head. A lot of the times I don't. I don't know how to make it go away.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

But I do have more negative self talk. I always have. And, you know, I. I prayed it away for years, and it just doesn't go away. So instead it's like, okay, so let it come out. Let it say the thing, and then you just speak truth over it. Oh, that's good, Joe. You're getting older. You feel okay, but. Oh, but what am I? So it's the practice of talking louder than it because I can't get it to go away, but what can I say? What's the truth? You know? And then the more you do that practice, the less you hear it, and so.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, that's good.

[Joanna Gaines]

But to be with Chip, he's like, constant positive talk. So just get there quicker with him.

[Hoda Kotb]

I need you right now.

[Joanna Gaines]

He's like, you look great. You are amazing. So, you know, it's definitely easier when I'm with him.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, God, you found the right one. You guys both found the right one. You all just are crushing it.

[Joanna Gaines]

And right now he's like, in the city. What's he doing? He wants to play the Amazing Race with he and crew.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my gosh.

[Joanna Gaines]

So he's like, I won't drive in a car. I'm not gonna. We're gonna just go wherever crew wants to go. And 100% Hoda, he will be lost.

[Hoda Kotb]

Of course he will.

[Joanna Gaines]

He loves it. They both have backpacks, end of the world stuff they need. And he's like, we're gonna see if we can make it. I hope to see you at the end of the day, babe.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love it. So this podcast is called Making Space. So when have a clear day that doesn't fill you with. There's nothing on Your calendar, You're like, guess what? It's only you. How would you fill the day? How, when would you wake up? How would you fill it?

[Joanna Gaines]

I love this question. I've carved out every Tuesday, Thursday. So summers, I typically try to say no office days. I work from home, so the kids are home. But during the school year, Tuesday, Thursdays, I stay home, and those are my days. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I work my butt off. I go in early and I leave late. But Tuesday and Thursday are like my fill up days. Those are my favorite. I try to plan nothing and I go in the garden and it's kind of like I'm doing what Chip does right now in the city. I like, let things lead me. Yeah, I'll make a recipe or two. Crew is home on those days. We'll play in the garden. I'll do flower arrangements. I'll make a big meal for the kids when they get home. I stay home. Home grounds me. So for me, it's not travel, it's not good. It's like anything at home. What curiosities am I tapping into at home? So those Tuesday Thursdays, those home days are truly what refuel me for the work that I do. But they're my favorite. I turn on like, jazz music or like, lately I've gotten into like, you know, symphony. What? Just like music with no words.

[Hoda Kotb]

Look at you.

[Joanna Gaines]

And it's just creative because, you know, these geniuses built that.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's just flowing through you.

[Joanna Gaines]

So those are my favorite days, just being creative because I feel like the work I do at the office is output.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

With the magazine, the show. Like, I have to give that output with design at home. It's like, what am I input? What am I putting back in?

[Hoda Kotb]

Bring it in. I love you.

[Joanna Gaines]

I love you too, Hoda.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Alison Berger along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Mostarilli. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau and Mark Yoshi Zumi. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Leach is the executive vice president of Today and lifestyle.

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