Martha Beck On Treating Anxiety With Creativity

Summary

Making Space with Hoda Kotb: Martha Beck On Treating Anxiety With Creativity

Episode Overview In the July 16, 2025 episode of "Making Space with Hoda Kotb," host Hoda Kotb engages in a profound conversation with Martha Beck, a best-selling author, life coach, and speaker renowned for her insightful teachings on personal development and emotional resilience. This episode delves into the intricate relationship between anxiety and creativity, offering listeners practical strategies to overcome anxiety by tapping into their creative potential.

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Martha Beck’s Personal Journey with Anxiety

The episode opens with Martha Beck recounting a pivotal moment in her life that reshaped her understanding of anxiety. At nearly six months pregnant with her son Adam, Beck received difficult news from a nurse at Harvard Medical. Her unborn child was diagnosed with Down syndrome—a revelation that initially plunged her into despair. However, a quiet inner voice urged her not to fear, prompting a fundamental shift in her perspective.

Martha Beck [04:26]: “That is right. And from that moment, my whole idea of the meaning of life switched from succeeding, achieving, acquiring, to the experience of joy.”

This experience led Beck to prioritize joy and authenticity over societal expectations of success, laying the foundation for her later work on overcoming anxiety.

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Understanding Anxiety vs. Fear

Beck differentiates between anxiety and fear, clarifying that while fear is a direct response to immediate danger, anxiety is a pervasive, often unfounded sense of dread about potential threats.

Martha Beck [09:24]: “Anxiety is more like being haunted. You're afraid, but you're not sure of what. And it's definitely not in the room with you, but it's out there somewhere and it's coming.”

She explains that anxiety stems more from our thoughts about potential dangers rather than actual threats, creating a constant state of unease that can disrupt daily life.

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The Impact of the Negativity Bias

Beck introduces the concept of the negativity bias, an evolutionary trait that makes our brains focus on potential dangers over positive stimuli. This bias can trap individuals in a loop of anxious thoughts, even in the absence of real threats.

Martha Beck [12:20]: “The negativity bias... is why, if I sent you a box full of 15 puppies and a cobra, all your attention would go to the cobra.”

This inherent tendency highlights why overcoming anxiety requires conscious effort to redirect focus from negative to positive or neutral thoughts.

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Shifting from Anxiety to Creativity

Central to Beck’s approach is the idea that engaging in creative activities can counteract anxiety. She posits that creativity is the brain’s natural antidote to anxiety, fostering connections and joy that dispel fearful thoughts.

Martha Beck [13:55]: “The opposite of anxiety in the brain is not calm, it's creativity.”

Beck shares personal anecdotes and research indicating that creative activities like painting, writing, or even making a sandwich can shift the brain’s focus from anxiety to creative engagement, thereby alleviating anxious feelings.

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The C.A.T. Method: Calm, Art, Transcendence

Beck introduces the C.A.T. method—a three-step process designed to manage anxiety:

1. Calm

   • Kind Internal Self-Talk: Address the anxious part of oneself with kindness to calm the initial anxiety.
   • Context Recognition: Acknowledge that anxiety often stems from concerns unrelated to the present moment.

2. Art

   • Engage in creative activities to shift the brain’s focus from anxiety to creativity.

3. Transcendence

   • Move beyond anxiety by immersing oneself in positive sensory experiences, effectively transcending fearful thoughts.

Martha Beck [20:16]: “You're suddenly in this fear-free zone, right? And then comes T, which stands for transcendence.”

This method emphasizes continual practice, suggesting that regularly engaging in creativity can rewire the brain to reduce anxiety over time.

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Living Authentically and Embracing Integrity

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the importance of authenticity in overcoming anxiety. Beck argues that societal and cultural pressures often lead individuals to live inauthentically, fostering anxiety through constant people-pleasing and self-denial.

Martha Beck [28:12]: “Everyone's born in complete integrity... as we grow up, we sell out our nature hard.”

Beck encourages listeners to reconnect with their true selves, shedding societal expectations to live authentically. This alignment with one’s true nature not only reduces anxiety but also enhances overall well-being and fulfillment.

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Creating an Ideal Day and Embracing One-Degree Turns

Beck shares practical exercises for listeners to design their ideal day, integrating elements that foster creativity and joy. She advocates for one-degree turns—small, incremental changes that collectively lead to significant personal transformations without overwhelming the individual.

Martha Beck [45:26]: “What you're doing is you sit down with a schedule... Make a schedule based on what sets you free, based on what makes you open.”

This approach underscores the importance of gradual, sustainable changes in building a life that prioritizes mental health and personal happiness.

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Building Community and Support Systems

Towards the end of the conversation, Beck highlights the role of community and support systems in maintaining emotional resilience. Through retreats and shared experiences, individuals can discover their authentic selves and form meaningful connections that reinforce their journey towards overcoming anxiety.

Martha Beck [35:42]: “One of the women on this retreat wrote to us yesterday and said, I expected a lot of things on this retreat, but I did not expect to fall in love with 25 people. It's a village.”

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Closing Thoughts

The episode concludes with Hoda Kotb expressing deep appreciation for Beck’s insights, encouraging listeners to explore her book "Beyond Anxiety" for a comprehensive guide on transforming anxiety into creativity and joy.

Hoda Kotb [46:57]: “I want everyone to pick up this book because. Because all of us are going through some type of anxiety. But you're right. This is all about the other side.”

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Key Takeaways

• Anxiety vs. Fear: Understanding the difference is crucial in addressing and managing anxiety effectively.
• Negativity Bias: Recognizing this evolutionary trait helps in developing strategies to combat persistent anxious thoughts.
• C.A.T. Method: A practical framework (Calm, Art, Transcendence) to alleviate anxiety through kindness, creativity, and positive sensory experiences.
• Authenticity: Living true to oneself reduces anxiety by eliminating the need for constant people-pleasing.
• One-Degree Turns: Implementing small changes can lead to significant personal growth and reduced anxiety.
• Community Support: Building supportive relationships enhances emotional resilience and personal well-being.

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Notable Quotes

• Martha Beck [04:26]: “From that moment, my whole idea of the meaning of life switched from succeeding, achieving, acquiring, to the experience of joy.”
• Martha Beck [09:24]: “Anxiety is more like being haunted. You're afraid, but you're not sure of what.”
• Martha Beck [13:55]: “The opposite of anxiety in the brain is not calm, it's creativity.”
• Martha Beck [28:12]: “Everyone's born in complete integrity... as we grow up, we sell out our nature hard.”
• Martha Beck [45:26]: “Make a schedule based on what sets you free, based on what makes you open.”

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Conclusion This episode of "Making Space with Hoda Kotb" offers a transformative perspective on managing anxiety by harnessing creativity and embracing authenticity. Martha Beck’s personal experiences and practical strategies provide listeners with actionable tools to navigate and transcend their anxious states, fostering a life rich in joy and creative fulfillment.

Transcript

[Martha Beck]

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[Hoda Kotb]

Society doesn't want to talk about menopause. And when they do, they don't make it sound very pretty. So Walgreens is helping women change the perception and take back the narrative. Because nothing is sexier than being in control. Menopause is confidence. Menopause is power. Menopause is hot. Let's frame menopause together. Watch the menopause is hot [e-mail] Hotel before we get into today's conversation, I'd like us all to take a moment. I'd like you to ask yourself this question. Is there anything in my life that's causing me to feel anxious right now, in this moment? So if the answer is yes, I want you to know two things. First, you are not alone. And second, help is on the way. And it is on the way right now. Martha Beck is a best selling author, life coach and speaker. She spent a lifetime offering powerful, practical and entertaining teachings that help people improve every aspect of their lives. Not to mention, Martha also holds three Harvard degrees, so it's no wonder Oprah refers to Martha as one of the smartest women she knows. But Martha Beck isn't just book smart. She has this inner wisdom. She's spiritual, she's funny. She also has a deep understanding of how we feel and more importantly, why we feel the way we do. Martha's latest book, beyond Curiosity, Creativity and finding your life's Purpose, offers a new path to healing, overcoming anxiety by changing the way we think and awakening the creativity within, sharing tips that are practical and and incredibly powerful. And so today, I encourage you to lean in. Not into the anxiety you feel, but into your own power. To open your mind and tap into your curiosity, your creativity and your purpose. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space. Every time I sit with you for the first time, I think about a story that I heard you tell and for some reason I've retold it. You know, I'm like, anyway, my friend Martha, I'm like, but it was a story you told that you were pregnant while you were at Harvard and you were wondering whether or not you should have this child that you were carrying. Will you please just start us off with that? Because I think this is very telling about life.

[Martha Beck]

It could be any one of a number of incidents. Are you talking about when I got the phone call?

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, when you found out that your child had. Was going to.

[Martha Beck]

All right, so I'm only 25 years old. I've just gotten pregnant for the second time because I was raised Mormon and that's what you do. But I was also getting a PhD at Harvard after getting my BA and MA there. And I was pregnant for the second time and I was in a fire. And they offered me all this free testing because I'd been caught in this high rise fire. And so they did all these tests, but we didn't think anything would come of it. And I got a call and it was really late in my pregnancy. I was almost six months pregnant. And I got a call and the nurse from the Harvard Medical place said, I have some not so good news for you. The fetus you're carrying has down syndrome. And as she, Right after she said that, I heard this very quiet voice. I don't know if it was inside my head outside, but it said, don't be afraid.

[Hoda Kotb]

And I was like.

[Martha Beck]

I said, what? What? But I was talking to the voice and she said, well, down syndrome is trisomy 23. It involves all these different birth defects. And I was like, no, not you. I was super rude to her because I was like, what?

[Hoda Kotb]

Her voice.

[Martha Beck]

And the V came again and it said, martha, are you happy? And I was like, happy. And I'd been at Harvard since I was 17 and I'd been pushing as hard as I could my whole life. And I thought about. I didn't even remember thinking about what it might be to be happy. And the nurse was going on and I said, I cut in and I said, I've heard that people with down syndrome can be happy. And she said, I don't know about that. And the voice said, that is right. And from that moment, my whole idea of the meaning of life switched from succeeding, achieving, acquiring, to the experience of joy. Because if there's any meaning in life, Emerson said, beauty is its own excuse for being. And joy is felt. Beauty. Right. And I realized that's the only excuse for beating, but it's everything.

[Hoda Kotb]

So when Adam was born.

[Martha Beck]

When Adam was born, they told me he was like a malignant tumor that I wouldn't let them take out. That's what the doctors at the Harvard Medical Clinic told me. So the very first thing he did was to pee in the face of the doctor who had called him a malignant tumor. And I was just so proud. Like, how many babies can make their mother proud that quickly? It was really just a preface to his whole life.

[Hoda Kotb]

Describe what Adam has meant to you in your life.

[Martha Beck]

Well, it was really weird, Hoda, because here I was, like, harving away. And before he was diagnosed, from the moment I got pregnant, I was having psychic experiences. And I was like, what the hell? My then husband was traveling back and forth between Asia and Boston. And sometimes, because he was awake when I was asleep, I would vividly dream whatever was happening to him. And then we'd check. In the morning, you were at a festival on the streets of Tokyo, and it was all green and blue banners, and they were correct. It happened again and again and again. So it went down a little after he was born. Left me with a little bit of it, but he really took it with him. And he's like, if you've ever read the Narnia books, the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, there are these kids that find this wardrobe closet. And usually it's just a closet full of coats, but sometimes they part the coats and there's more coats, and it just goes back and back and back until it comes out in a world called Narnia, where the animals can talk and magic is real. And most of the time, Adam is just a dude with down syndrome. And sometimes it goes back and back and back until you're in a place where the animals can talk and magic is real. And I am not kidding.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my God, I have chills.

[Martha Beck]

Yeah. Think about what I have.

[Hoda Kotb]

So when you were studying at Harvard and you were going about the Harvarding.

[Martha Beck]

Of life, by the way, everybody can have a drink of water every time we say Harvard.

[Hoda Kotb]

So what was like, why did you want to go down that road? What were you hoping to find? What were you looking for?

[Martha Beck]

Yeah. Yeah, what? Well, I was a. I was born a really high achieving, anxious person. It's just in my genes. And my father was a professor. He was sort of famous in the local community. And then I was put into school like the rest of us. And it never occurred to me to do anything else but just swallow the whole cultural program whole and try my best to be good at everything. I was just pushing to be good, but I never felt like I was good.

[Hoda Kotb]

Do you think your book that you've written, that everybody's talking about now is all about anxiety?

[Martha Beck]

No, Only the first third of it is about anxiety. The Next two thirds are about what happens when you get beyond anxiety.

[Hoda Kotb]

Beyond anxiety.

[Martha Beck]

Oh, that's the fun part.

[Hoda Kotb]

So let's talk about why a lot of kids and grownups have anxiety. You just described your own upbringing. Everyone can probably point to a thing in theirs where they go, ah. I got anxious because my parents demanded this, my parents demanded that. So at the root of it, like, do you. Do you feel like you have anxiety yourself?

[Martha Beck]

Not anymore.

[Hoda Kotb]

Not anymore.

[Martha Beck]

I had a really, really intense spell of anxiety from birth to age 60. And then I wrote this book and it went away, and I was like, oh, my God, it worked.

[Hoda Kotb]

Let's talk about anxiety, because I think a lot of people aren't quite sure what it means.

[Martha Beck]

Okay, so first of all, anxiety is like fear, but it's not fear. Fear is a helpful response to actual danger that's in the room with you, and it give a clear burst of energy and clear thinking about what best to do in the situation. Then you get away from the predator or the danger or whatever it is. Fear disappears, just settles. It's a fireman. It comes out, it goes back. Anxiety is more like being haunted. You're afraid, but you're not sure of what. And it's definitely not in the room with you, but it's out there somewhere and it's coming. And you may think you know what it looks like or you may not, but it never stops frightening you. Yeah. And the reason is some of our emotions come from what happens, but most of our emotions come from our thoughts about what happens. So, like, in my book, I talk about, I was riding in a game reserve in Africa and a leopard walked right by the place, like, as close to me as you are, but on the other side of a screen door. And he's doing what leopards do. You go, okay. Because he was territorial. He was like, this is my place. And I heard that when I heard it, he was as close to me as you are. And I literally thought the leopard was in the room with me. And the adrenaline just shot me, like, way up into the ceiling. And then boom, I noticed he was leaving and I was fine. But if I had gone to bed and then thought, he's going to come back, he's going to claw through the screen door. Oh, my God, he's going to tear me limb from limb. Oh, he's going to eat me alive. What? Those kinds of thoughts. And you could have it about the IRS or your ex or bad things that could happen to your children, and you just lie there.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Martha Beck]

Terrified of nothing.

[Hoda Kotb]

Terrified of nothing. Okay. So that's why people aren't sleeping. I just have a friend whose dad passed, and I was just talking with her mother and my friend's mom, and she was talking about how I don't sleep. I have to have, like, Forensic Files.

[Martha Beck]

On, or I can't rest.

[Hoda Kotb]

But I was just thinking about the number of people who, no matter what, whether it's a big loss or a small thing or something you're scared of or whatever it is. And that's the movie that plays over. So what do you do with the movie? Like, what do you do?

[Martha Beck]

So interesting that she has forensic files on a story about murder. Not fake or murder, real murder. That soothes her to.

[Hoda Kotb]

But you know what's funny? I'm kind of that way about law and order. When death happens, and you're like. And they're already dead. There's no blood. Now how are they gonna. And then you just settle. Like, your body settles.

[Martha Beck]

And it's partly because your brain is like, I should be afraid, but I'm not sure why. And then it's like, oh, murder. Now I know why I should be afraid. I'll just watch. It's over there. Okay. Now I can be over here, and I don't have to be murdered. But, boy, am I thinking about murder.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's right. Okay, so how do you stop the movie?

[Martha Beck]

So, yeah, the reason is that your brain has kind of a tendency to pull into anxiety. It's just a sort of evolutionary quirk, and it's called the negativity bias. And it's why, if I sent you a box full of 15 puppies and a cobra, all your attention would go to the cobra. Right? Right. To keep you alive. Not to mention the puppies. Right. So there's that tendency to look at danger or to imagine danger. And then the brain can get stuck in this loop where it feels afraid and there's nothing to be afraid of. So it makes up a story about why it's afraid, or it identifies one in the forensics files or whatever. But the fear is always in the brain. And then the primitive parts go, oh, my God, we are in dange. We are in danger right now. And it starts to spin around and around, and the brain is reacting to our worst fears as if they were.

[Hoda Kotb]

Actually happening in the sense happening in that moment.

[Martha Beck]

Okay, but that's all in the left hemisphere of the brain. And I'll tell you, there's much more in the book about how to shift back and forth.

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, I do want to know Some of that, yes.

[Martha Beck]

The right hemisphere of the brain is a mirror image of the left hemisphere, but it has a totally different function. So on the left it goes fear story about fear, anxiety. On the right it goes curiosity about murder, about an accident. Have you ever rubbernecked? Yeah, it's because half of you is scared of that, but half of you is super curious. And people feel guilty about that, but they shouldn't because that too evolved to help us understand scary situations. And as we follow our curiosity.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Martha Beck]

We start to connect. Oh, there was an accident. Oh, that poor man. I hope he's okay. Suddenly you're connecting to another person, and then you start thinking, oh, should I call 91 1? You start to connect and create. The opposite of anxiety in the brain is not calm, it's creativity. And we cannot force calm, but we can choose creativity. And if we do, we've known forever that anxiety shuts down creativity. There's no research on whether creativity shuts down anxiety. But I started doing research on it and it totally works.

[Hoda Kotb]

You know what I was just thinking? My 8 year old was having a whole meltdown, like, out of control. And I said to her, hey, let's go. Did you see that toy? Literally in one second, all the. Cause usually you think you have to deal, and we didn't deal with it. And the jagged crying was from. I don't even remember what. But it was. All of a sudden it was like, do you think that we're gonna. Do you think that the Eagles are gonna win? Do you think this. And all of a sudden she just shifted, just on a nickel.

[Martha Beck]

You can almost say, oh, my goodness, what's that? And the kid will be like, I tried this. Day before yesterday, I was flying from a retreat center in Costa Rica, which is very mountainous, and we were in a little plane, and there's a lot of turbulence. They've never. But it's quite turbulent. And I'm not usually a nervous flyer, but we got tossed around a bit. And I found myself, like, I wish this were over, kind of looking at my watch. And then I looked out and I saw these little houses in the jungle. And I asked a question that the activist and lawyer Valerie Corr says we should ask when we're afraid of other people. I looked at these houses and I thought, I wonder what they eat for dinner. And Hoda like that. All my anxiety was gone. I couldn't believe it. I mean, I was really anxious. And then I was like, I wonder what they have for dinner.

[Hoda Kotb]

Boom, gone.

[Martha Beck]

Calm, happy. What?

[Hoda Kotb]

That's so crazy that you did this research. That's so brilliant.

[Martha Beck]

When I saw it, because I'd done a class on creativity and I read the neuroscience of creativity. Then I'm studying the neuroscience of anxiety and I see that they toggle back.

[Hoda Kotb]

And forth and I was alone in.

[Martha Beck]

My bedroom and I just did this.

[Hoda Kotb]

You're like, I've got my. I got it, by the way.

[Martha Beck]

That's huge.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's huge.

[Martha Beck]

I haven't had anxiety since then. I mean, anxiety is my first, middle and last name, but I'm gonna have to change my name.

[Hoda Kotb]

More with Martha back when we come back foreign.

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[Hoda Kotb]

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[Martha Beck]

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[Hoda Kotb]

20 more minutes to kill in the pharmacy before my prescription is ready. Maybe I'll grab some deeply discounted out of season Halloween candy.

[Martha Beck]

Hmm.

[Hoda Kotb]

I never had a chocolate pumpkin with raisins before. Those were raisins, right? Next time use Amazon Pharmacy.

[Martha Beck]

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[Hoda Kotb]

Let's say someone's mom just dropped their kid off at college and you're like, is he going to be drinking? God, I hope not. I hope he knows well enough not to drive. His grades are on the brain. All the things that any mom would worry about. What is the how to like? What would you do with your brain or yourself in in a time like that?

[Martha Beck]

Three step process. Okay? Remember the word cat. Cat first comes calm. Okay? And the only way you can get to calm. I advise something called Kind Internal Self Talk, which the acronym is kissed. And if I say a calm thing, there's nothing. But if I said to you, find the part that's anxious and say a kind thing, so you do that right now, like, wherever our kids are, we don't know where they are. So if we worry, say something kind to the part of you that's worried.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Martha Beck]

So can you think of anything you could use?

[Hoda Kotb]

I would probably say, for, like, my best friend, I would probably say, sweetie, you've done your job. You taught him well. You know that. He's a responsible kid.

[Martha Beck]

You're okay. You're okay. So you notice what you're feeling. You calm it down with kindness. Then you look around. C is also for context. We're in a room where nothing bad is happening. So there's no. It's no use wasting our energy worrying about anything that's not here right now at the next point. And this is where I don't want people to misunderstand, but the A in cat stands for art. And I do not mean you have to draw pictures. People get so tense. I can't sing. I can't. No.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay. Art.

[Martha Beck]

Make anything. Make a sandwich. Make a conversation. Put together an outfit for the day. Make a plan to go for a walk. These are all things that animals couldn't do. They're all creative philosophies. I use the word art because it fits with cat. Yeah. So make something.

[Hoda Kotb]

Make something.

[Martha Beck]

Pick up something with your hands. Make a paper airplane. Anything.

[Hoda Kotb]

Anything.

[Martha Beck]

You're suddenly in this fear free zone, right? And then comes T, which you don't have to do anything about. It stands for transcendence.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay?

[Martha Beck]

And it's what the right hemisphere of your brain will help you do if you aren't afraid. And it is a feeling that I think animals have almost all the time. It's a feeling of being so blissfully in your own body, enjoying being mortal, being in these surroundings, the beauty of. The amount of beauty that we can experience. So one thing I do to help people get to transcendence. Can you play?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, I'd love to play. Yes.

[Martha Beck]

All right, tell me three things you love to taste.

[Hoda Kotb]

Taste. Chocolate chip cookies, a steak that's medium rare and an ice cold Coke.

[Martha Beck]

Okay, so you have cookies, you have steak, ice cold Coke. What are three things you love to hear?

[Hoda Kotb]

Music. There's a song that's called Blessing by Hollow Grove. It's so beautiful. I love that. I love anything. I mean, I could list Artist after artist. But I like music. I like the ocean, and I like to hear my kids laughing.

[Martha Beck]

Okay, so you're at the ocean, the music is on. You can hear the ocean. You can hear your kids laughing. You got a steak, you got a Coke, you got a cookie. What are three things you love to feel with your skin?

[Hoda Kotb]

My kids skin on mine. I love the sand and the water. I like the beach. I love that feeling. And I love my mom's hand holding my mom's hand.

[Martha Beck]

Okay, so your mom is there. You're holding hands. Your kids come in. They cuddle up to you, but they've got sand and water all over them. And you feel that feeling. You still got your steak, your cookie, and your Coke. Still. Now, are you holding this in your head?

[Hoda Kotb]

I am. I am. The music's playing. The waves are going.

[Martha Beck]

Yes. Okay, three things you love to see.

[Hoda Kotb]

To see. I love a sunrise.

[Martha Beck]

Okay. The sun is rising. Okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love to see my kids when they're getting out of bed and their hair's all tussled and they're in jammies and they can barely function. Three things I like to see. And I like to see the waves. I'm an ocean person.

[Martha Beck]

Yeah, and then smell is the last one.

[Hoda Kotb]

I like to smell fresh baked bread. I like the smell of the ocean, and I love the smell of my kids after they get out of the bath.

[Martha Beck]

All right, so put all these things together. You're having a Sunrise steak. Odd choice, but it's fine. Sunrise steak, cookie and Coke. Got your mom's hand, you got your kids staggering around covered with sand. You can hear and smell the ocean. Okay, now where's your anxiety? Ah. See, you could be in that situation and you could be super anxious and it would ruin the whole thing, or you can just dream it up, because that's creativity, that's art, and it takes you beyond. It transcends all your fears. And that's why this book is called Beyond Anxiety, because the good stuff is after.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my God, that is so beautiful. And easy.

[Martha Beck]

Simple, right?

[Hoda Kotb]

How is it that easy?

[Martha Beck]

The reason we don't know about doing that is that we live in a culture that's driven by anxiety. So my PhD is in sociology. And what I see now is a huge global version of this anxiety spiral just whipping around, you know, And I'm sure you've reported on a thousand different stories that they're called anxiogenic. You can drink if I say that again, too. But yeah, we want to stay informed about those things. But what we've got is a culture that is thinking with the left hemisphere of the brain, which is about measurement, judgment, competition. Win, win, win. Gut, material, objects never die. Never die. The right hemisphere of the brain is going, I'm having a cookie. I can see you running around, scared little anxious brain. You're not actually afraid of anything that's right here.

[Hoda Kotb]

So do you keep doing that? Because anxiety, like anything, comes and goes. So do you just keep playing the getting into the art, or do you.

[Martha Beck]

Think it doesn't have to come and go?

[Hoda Kotb]

It doesn't have to come and go.

[Martha Beck]

Fear will always come and go. That's your friend.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Martha Beck]

But anxiety can just go.

[Hoda Kotb]

Can just go.

[Martha Beck]

And the way it can go, every time you've been anxious, every time you think a thought, it actually wires up a little connection in your brain that makes it easier to go to that place. And at first it's like driving a car out of deep ruts to be. I'm so anxious. Let me think about a cup of hot tea with lemon and my cat on my lap. No, that's not. There are things to worry about. Yeah, there are, honey. There are real problems in the world. Yes. And if you had, say, you were in a car accident and you had broken bones and injured organs, that's a real problem. And would you want the doctors operating on you to be in a state of panic or calm creativity? So, yeah, you can just wire your brain. So it always goes, oh, that's anxiety. That doesn't work. Let me go to something that makes me joyful. It's as easy as picking up a pen and doodling or imagining a scenario like you just did.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love that scenario.

[Martha Beck]

And you wire a different connection.

[Hoda Kotb]

And that can be something that works, that you can use daily or you don't even need it after a while.

[Martha Beck]

I go days now with no anxiety.

[Hoda Kotb]

What about. There's a lot of people who take, you know, medication and I'm sure you've been asked about this. What do you think about that?

[Martha Beck]

Oh, I'm all for it. Make anything easier. Like one of the. It's. Kindness is the one thing that will help you and other people if you're anxious. Don't try to be calm. Choose to be kind. Kindness is just. And then you get into calm and then everything gets calmer around you. I think I just lost the thread of your question. What was it again?

[Hoda Kotb]

I can't remember. It was something. Oh, God, I totally forgot. I totally blanked.

[Martha Beck]

Somebody tell us the question.

[Hoda Kotb]

Everyone's got their. Everyone's vibrators.

[Martha Beck]

It's okay. It's all right.

[Hoda Kotb]

We got a lot going on.

[Martha Beck]

So.

[Hoda Kotb]

Another thing that you say that I feel like rings so true to me is you said, when you tell the truth in your life. Yeah. Your body relaxes. And I had never thought of that until you said that. Because we talked about living authentically.

[Martha Beck]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

And marching along, because it's the path of least resistance. And I live here, and he was cute, so I married him. And then I went in a job. It was two blocks away. And now I'm 60 years old. I'm 70 years old, and what am I doing here? But you're not living yourself. So a lie, inauthenticity. Describe how that plays.

[Martha Beck]

Well, everybody's born in complete integrity. They feel what they feel. They know what they know, and they do what they want. That's a new baby. Right. But as we grow up, even before we can talk, we're also incredibly sensitive to the reactions of people around us. And very soon, a baby will learn. They're happier if I smile a lot. They're happier if I'm completely quiet. People are mad at me if I touch things. So our true nature bumps into culture, which just means any family culture, religious culture. And we find out that things about us are wrong, and we internalize that. And when it comes to our nature wants one thing and the culture wants another thing, we sell out our nature hard. Like, forget what I wanted. I will do what they want because I need them to survive. So right there, we've lost our connection with our full authenticity. And so we're innocently lying every time we do something because it's recommended by the people around us, even though we hate it.

[Hoda Kotb]

Gosh.

[Martha Beck]

I do this thing when I give speeches. I'll say to a bunch of people in a ballroom or whatever, I've given a speech. And then I just stop and say, is everybody comfortable? And they're like, what? Yes. Wow. And I'm like, no, no, seriously, are you comfortable? Yes. Keep talking. And then I say, how many of you, if you were home alone right now, would be in exactly the position you're in right now? Nobody's hand goes up. And then I say, why? And they don't know.

[Hoda Kotb]

They don't know.

[Martha Beck]

And then after a few minutes, someone goes, it's not very comfortable. And I'm like, bingo. The discomfort isn't the problem. The problem is that we can look each other in the eye and lie about. I'm completely comfortable while knowing that we're not comfortable because we know with our bodies and we think with our brains and the brain pushes the body. That's why when I asked you for all these physical things, you got into calm. Yeah, because when you deny yourself, you're doing it for a set of rules and you lose touch with what you feel, what you know and what you want.

[Hoda Kotb]

More to come with Martha Beck Stay with us.

[C]

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[C]

Hey everybody, I'm Al Roker from the Today show, here to tell you about our Jumpstart July event. The Start Today app has everything you need to get and stay motivated on your wellness journey all in one place. Like walking challenges for all levels to get you moving. Healthy recipes that are easy and delicious and so much more. And now when you subscribe for an annual plan, you'll get your first month completely free with promo code Jumpstart. Just download the Start Today app now.

[Hoda Kotb]

To get started offer in 7312025 must.

[Martha Beck]

Enter code at checkout.

[Hoda Kotb]

Must be 18 or up after first month. You will be automatically charged 65.99 a year plus tax for an annual subscription until you cancel.

[Martha Beck]

Cancel anytime through your device settings under Apple account.

[Hoda Kotb]

See website for full terms. There are probably a lot of moms who are raising kids and often I'm guilty of this too. I always say to my daughters, you know my mom wants you to be X and Y. No, let's go, let's listen. And they're pleasing her. Like they'll say she gave me something. And one of them might say, but I didn't really like it. But you said you did. She's like, yeah. Cause I don't wanna hurt her feelings. And one time me and the two girls were sitting there and a guy came up and he said, do you want some juice? And one of my daughters has diabetes. And I said, oh, we can't. Thank you, she has diabetes. And Haley goes, he seemed upset.

[Martha Beck]

Huh.

[Hoda Kotb]

So I'm thinking to myself like, what am I doing here?

[Martha Beck]

Wow.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. And she's only an 8 year old. But I think a lot of people are raising up K who you want to be polite but you don't want to be pleasers and behave like that.

[Martha Beck]

And what you do then is continuously validate what you think they're really feeling and invite them to tell you if you're wrong about it. Most parents do not want to be told by their children that they're in error. But if I had my older kids to raise again. I have a 4 year old by the way, because what I am a late blooming lesbian with a much younger partner. And we have a four year old and there are three of us, I mean three women and a baby. It's all whole TV show. Don't even worry about it.

[Hoda Kotb]

She will be, I'm sure.

[Martha Beck]

Yeah, do the research. But with her, I do something I didn't do with my other kids, which is if she has a meltdown, I go and I sit with her and I just say, of course you're melting down, you must feel awful. I would feel awful. Everybody feels awful when they have to do things they don't want. And I'm right here for you. And eventually, like you did with your 8 year old, it passes. There's this, this bit of poetry from the 13th century by a guy named Hafiz that is so simple and beautiful. He said, troubled, then stay with me for I am not. So if you get out of your own anxiety and we can't be inauthentic and free from anxiety at the same time, it doesn't work that way. So the last book I wrote was about integrity. And then people said, well, I'm in integrity, but I'm afraid I was like, what's that about? And now I believe that there's that story we believe so strongly. I have to please my grandma, I have to please the man with the juice. Right? And we don't recognize that that's not true. So we fall into the lie of people pleasing over and over and over.

[Hoda Kotb]

Were you ever that time.

[Martha Beck]

Oh, God. You were, as I said, between birth and 60. Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was your epiphany at 60?

[Martha Beck]

What happened? Book. But that was how.

[Hoda Kotb]

But that's what changed everything.

[Martha Beck]

That is literally because I have meditated for. For hours at a time, for days, months, years on end. I could get to calm, but anxiety was always, like a frequent visitor. And then I realized it didn't have to be. And so I go straight to creativity. I get up in the morning, I do my bathroom things, and then I start to draw and paint. And I do that for a couple of hours. And like, this book came out a couple of weeks ago. I just spent a week in Costa Rica. I've never checked to see how it's selling. I don't care. Oh, my God, My sisters are watching.

[Hoda Kotb]

You just said something so profound, it.

[Martha Beck]

Didn'T even occur to me. I'm painting, all right? What part of I'm painting do you all not understand? The minute I start counting and measuring and judging, I'm anxious. I had that for 60 years. I do not need it anymore.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my gosh. Tell me. I want to hear a little bit about the retreats. Things that you get, because these are retreats you give. What do you gain from the retreat? Tell me. I want to hear.

[Martha Beck]

I gain the opportunity. We called it Pure Wild Self. That's in Costa Rica. Because the whole thing is about losing the veneer of culture and finding out what people really want. And then if they're not comfortable, they recognize it, and we make them comfortable. And in the process, we find out all the lies we've been telling to ourselves. I do another one in Africa called the African Star Self Transformation Adventure Retreat. Life coaches love acronyms. I love it. And it's the same thing. Culture is three days deep. They say you go off to a wild place, and after three days, you forget why you usually put on clothes. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, that's a choice, I guess.

[Hoda Kotb]

But you get. Do you get to know who you are at the core?

[Martha Beck]

Yes. And then I get company. Because the real joy that I got writing this book is that I've always been an introvert because I'm a people pleaser. If you're a people pleaser, people are dangerous because you have to please them. But then I realized that that was a lie that my head was telling me that was making me anxious. And so I don't have to be anything but my true self. And people come down and they're with me on the same. They've Got the same intention. So everyone finds out who they really are. One of the women on this retreat wrote to us yesterday and said, I expected a lot of things on this retreat, but I did not expect to fall in love with 25 people. It's a village. You get a village.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my God. That just is like, wow, wow, wow. So I was working at NBC for many years, and I had. I was fortunate enough to be able to sit with you on the show. Oh, I loved it so much. And I'm noticing as I'm kind of in this new world and I'm working on a business, and I'm lit up by it, and I'm excited by it, but it is unfamiliar. Like Maria said to me, make a schedule first day. You gotta make a schedule first day so that you have. Have some kind of structure. Because I've lived such a structured life for so many years, and it's confusing, and I'm still trying to kind of get my sea legs. Like, I'm so enjoying it, but I'm to do something I've never done. Like, talk about that jump, like, to try this business. Someone said to me once, when you jump, imagine yourself on the other side. Like, close your eyes and feel it. Like, feel the business, what it would feel like. Because jumping off of a. The mountain is like, bye. And I started trying to do that. But do you have advice for me or anybody who's like, I'm trying something. I'm scared. Is this right? I think so, yes.

[Martha Beck]

And this is something I learned when I had Adam, my son. I learned that in my body, there was an incredible sensitivity to the future. I was having psychic experiences, and it blew my mind wide open. I couldn't deny them. And so now, like everything, what you're doing is you sit down with a schedule. Yes. But don't make your schedule. From the part of you that feels anxious or that is trying to please anyone, make your schedule. Because when you think of doing something, it makes you feel like you're sitting at the beach with a steak and a cookie and your mom and your kids. And when I train coaches, we call this the body compass. And it's anything that is going away from your true destiny makes the body tense. And anything that's going toward your destiny makes the body relax. And sometimes you can make the strangest decisions because of that. But let me illustrate it. Think of a time you don't have to tell us about it. That was really hard for you. Like, you knew things were wrong. And really vividly. Imagine that Time. What the air smelled like, what the people were like, what the hustle bustle was, or the aloneness or whatever it was. And then really breathe it in and feel the inside of your body and see how the inside of your body reacts to that set of memories. What's the feeling?

[Hoda Kotb]

I feel like my insides feel kind of sick and I feel tingly for some reason.

[Martha Beck]

So that's a shock response. And you're making a facial expression and your body is telling us you don't even need language to do this. Okay? So breathe all that out, shake it out. And then think of one of the most wonderful times you ever had in your life. Okay? Breathe that in. Remember every color, remember every voice, remember all the things. And now just check inside your body and see what it feels like.

[Hoda Kotb]

Just light.

[Martha Beck]

So there's light, there's openness. And your body is doing this instead of.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's not crumbed yet.

[Martha Beck]

Facial expression. Everything is trying to communicate with you through your body, through your whole neuroception. So your cognitive brain is processing, like 40 bits of information per second, but your entire nervous system, which is part of your brain, is processing about 11 million bits of information per second. So when you let the 11 million bits give you their message, which is. Or make your choice about what to put on your schedule based on what sets you free, based on what makes you open. The Buddha used to say, quite often, wherever you find a body of water, you'll know if it's the ocean, because the ocean always tastes of salt. And wherever you find your own path, your own enlightenment, no matter what it looks like, you can know it, because enlightenment always tastes of freedom. Your mission in life always tastes of freedom. Not always happy, not always easy, but always free. Doesn't that just land?

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, lands. Oh, my God, that lands.

[Martha Beck]

And look at the opportunity you have. You're standing. I can't. At the brink of this vast. There was a woman at our retreat in the mountaintops of Costa Rica. Her name's Alice McGinty. She's 94 years old, maybe 95. And she has macular degeneration, so she has very little eyesight. And she was there, like, rocking it out. I don't know what your age is. I think we're about the same age. Yeah, 60. You know, if you have 34 great years to live from now on, don't waste any time going in a direction. You have made your way to this place in your life with blood, sweat and tears. Now go forward based on freedom, based on what frees your Soul. And this will lead you to do something my wife calls looking weird and feeling good. You're going to look weird because the culture is a culture of anxiety. And if you follow your true destiny, you won't be anxious. And then you'll do things that people will think are insane. And you'll be like, just look at them. And you say, oh, I deeply, respectfully do not care.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my gosh. You know what? I get why all the women who I love and admire and respect tell me that you're their person. Like, I totally. I mean, I always kind of got it, but I really got it today. So this podcast is called Making Space because it's like trying to get some room.

[Martha Beck]

So what do you do?

[Hoda Kotb]

I mean, you have. You give speeches, you have retreats, you know who you are. But when you have a blank slate day, you don't have an appearance or a speech to give or any commitments at all. Just run through how you'd start your day, how you'd fill it, and how you would end it. Oh, it's so fun.

[Martha Beck]

It's so delightful. I get up and I look to make sure what the day is. And then it's always too early to need to do anything. So I go to my art studio.

[Hoda Kotb]

When do you wake up? Like, when's early?

[Martha Beck]

It's wintertime. I've been waking up like six or seven, but I started sleeping really well when I did this too. So I used to be like a 9, 10 o'. Clock. If I can get that much sleep, I would. Now I get up at 5, 6, because I'm painting.

[Hoda Kotb]

So you get up and you paint?

[Martha Beck]

Yes, I get up and I paint pictures. And then I hear my family getting up around 7. And then we have. So in our house, we're a throuple. Yeah. So I've only ever had relationships with two female people, and I still have both of them. All three of us adore each other. We've been together nine years, and we have a little baby. And we have my son Adam. He's living with us, and we have a dog. And to organize as a family. That's that weird. We have a series of rituals called communion. Okay, so we got morning communion. Got to go downstairs at 7 for morning communion. And one of us has coffee, and one of. We got a morning person. She's running all around. The kid is naked in the middle of winter. We're like, whatever. Adam's going, she has no clothes on. We're like, I get it. And that is just one of Many communions throughout the day. So it's either creation or communion. Always creation and communion. That's what it's all about. And I don't work. Somebody said to me when I got to Costa Rica, is this like a break for you or is it work? And I was like, what are those things? There's only purpose. There's no break and work. There is purpose and it's always joyful and it changes where it wants me to go. But I don't even think work, break.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right, right. That doesn't.

[Martha Beck]

Joy, joy, joy, joy, joy. That's it.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay, so you're with your fam. You have your morning. Do you do anything solo or you. Oh, yeah, you would stay. Okay, tell me about.

[Martha Beck]

I do painting solo and I do writing solo. And right now I'm doing research for another book. Okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

What do you do for yourself?

[Martha Beck]

What don't I do for myself? The whole thing is made to please me. I don't know. I have a big comfy like goose down comforter.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, I love that.

[Martha Beck]

That I roll around in. They're all simple. You know when I do that exercise.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Martha Beck]

Oh, here's another way to put it. Okay, so if you made a list of things you want, you want a great house, you want. Oh, I saw your thing online about put in to notes your wildest dreams.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Martha Beck]

And then have Chat GPT describe a day for you when that's right. That's something I've been doing with coaches for years. We call it the ideal day. I do it constantly.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh my God.

[Martha Beck]

But not with Chat GPT.

[Hoda Kotb]

But you do it yourself, which is even better.

[Martha Beck]

Yeah. Mind is always like making things up. What would be even more fun? So everything I do came off of things I really, really love to do and just gradually just moved everything else away. I call it one degree turns. If you change your life, just if you're on a plane, you're going 10,000 miles and you change just one degree north every half hour, it won't even feel like you're turning, but you'll end up in a completely different place. So I'm always like turning one degree toward happier. Even happier.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, I love it. How do you end your days? What's your typical end.

[Martha Beck]

Well wrap up of that. We call it Trinity Communion. When the three of us get together and watch a TV show because the kids are asleep and the dog is there and it's really so not. It's so G rated. It is not a wild and crazy thing. And every single night when we sit down for Trinity time, we call it. It's like nothing has ever been this wonderful in the history of mankind. Like every single evening. It never.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow. Wow.

[Martha Beck]

It never, ever stops being so beautiful.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's amazing.

[Martha Beck]

Yeah, it really is.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's amazing.

[Martha Beck]

I'm not even lying.

[Hoda Kotb]

I could tell by the way.

[Martha Beck]

You could tell I'm on an integrity cleanse. I can't.

[Hoda Kotb]

Martha, thank you so, so much. I want everyone to pick up this book because. Because all of us are going through some type of anxiety. But you're right. This is all about the other side. This is by Martha Beck. Pick it up.

[Martha Beck]

All right.

[Hoda Kotb]

Thank you, Martha.

[Martha Beck]

Thanks, Hoda.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts. And make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Allison Berger along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Masterilli. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau and Mark Yoshi Zumi. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Lee is the executive vice president of Today and Lifestyle.

[C]

Ben hadn't had a decent night's sleep in a month. So during one of his restless nights, he booked a package trip abroad on Expedia. When he arrived, when he arrived at his beachside hotel, he discovered a miraculous bed slung between two trees and fell into their best sleep of his life. You were made to be rechargeable. We were made to package flights and hotels and hammocks for less. Expedia made to travel.