Podcast Summary: Man of the Year - Champions of Friendship

Episode #162: Useless Friends

Hosts: Matt Ritter and Aaron Karo
Date: December 9, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Matt and Aaron dive deep into the concept of "useless friends"—a term popularized by happiness researcher Arthur Brooks to describe friends who offer no transactional or instrumental value (i.e., career, status, favors) but provide genuine companionship and joy. The hosts explore whether such friendships are actually the most valuable, debate the tension between "usefulness" and pure presence, and answer a listener's question about keeping old friendships alive as lives diverge. They also riff on personal stories, the diversity of their own friend circles, and what truly makes a friendship matter.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Theory of Useless Friends (01:12–08:51)

• Arthur Brooks’ Perspective:

  • Aaron introduces Arthur Brooks' idea from Harvard Business School about “useless friends”—those who “are emotionally essential but practically unnecessary. You don’t need anything from them and your friends simply because you enjoy each other’s company.” (01:35)
  • Matt recommends Brooks’ book, The Second Mountain, which is about finding deeper purpose after career or family milestones (02:04).
  • The hosts joke about “Galloway Light” and Harvard stereotypes.

• Modern Obsession with Useful Friends:

  • Matt critiques the trend among “influencers and gurus” to maximize your inner circle for status or growth.
    • “The whole idea that you should be with five people that are where you need to be… why do they want to be with you then?” (04:16)
    • “I hate that… what a gross way to think about it.” (04:09, Aaron)

• Transactional vs. Genuine Connection:

  • Matt: “Other people are intentionally… trying to transactionalize their friendships… I hate that.” (03:45)
  • Aaron: “Our east coast crew—pretty useless, which of course we mean in a good way.” (04:43)
  • Both hosts agree it’s healthy to have friends who have “no utility” beyond bringing joy.

Notable Quote:

“I want that to be the default… I don’t need more than that as a baseline for a reason to be friends with you.”
— Matt Ritter (05:23)

2. Defining “Useless” and the Value Spectrum (06:00–10:33)

• What is True Uselessness?:

  • Matt notes everyone has “some friends that serve some sort of purpose,” whether emotional, financial, or practical. But he resists the idea every trait must be quantified.
    • “If you like somebody and you enjoy their company, they’re your friend.” (06:34)
  • Aaron clarifies “useless” is tongue-in-cheek, not derogatory, and that it’s more about non-transactional value (07:04).

• One-Sided Friendships & Reciprocity:

  • Discussion on reciprocity and friendships that aren't “50/50”—sometimes utility is uneven and that's okay if you enjoy the person (08:21).
  • Funny story about dog-sitting reciprocity being “hosed like nine to one” (07:19 Matt, laughs).

• Can You Quantify Joy?:

  • Matt wonders why we don’t include “someone you can just sit in a room and laugh with” when scoring friendships (09:11).

Notable Quote:

“Most friendships aren’t [quantifiable]… if you just have a good laugh, that should be enough.”
— Matt Ritter (08:51)

3. Listener Question: Is There a Point in Keeping Old Friends? (13:13–18:47)

• Listener Dilemma:

  • Listener asks whether to maintain high school friendships when lives have diverged significantly (13:25).
  • Aaron: “You’re having fun… You enjoy hanging out with them. Is it someone to… the wrong question.”
  • Matt: “Are we judging friendships by productivity now?… What are we doing?” (14:07)
  • Both agree the “point of a friend” is joy and positive feelings rather than career alignment or usefulness.

• Friendship Diversity:

  • Aaron: “It’s good to have a friend with a big truck who can move stuff, and it’s good to just have someone who can do nothing.” (15:36)
  • Matt introduces “active friends” and “friend emeritus”—old friends who may not be in daily life but have a respectful, lasting presence (16:48, 17:02).

Notable Quote:

“Maybe that friendship completed its mission.”
— Matt Ritter (17:09)

• The Hosts on Their Old Friends:
  • Both reflect on their tight-knit high school group and the value of sentimental, “archival, time machine friends.” (16:10–16:48)
  • Matt: “Not all friendships need to be active all the time for them to still be friends.”

4. High School Reunions & Sentimentality (19:04–21:44)

• Discussing attending (or not attending) school reunions, feeling curiosity but no burning desire.
• The importance of community and shared upbringing from Plainview, Long Island.
• Aaron: “I have no desire to go to a high school reunion. I’m still friends with the same 12 people from high school.” (19:40)
• Both agree their high school was “flat” (not overly cliquey) and full of “good families and good people.”

5. The Importance of Outer-Circle and “Random” Friends (26:16–29:39)

• Aaron shares how “fringe” or “outer ring” friends often bring more diversity and novel experiences than the core group (26:55).
  • “A useless friend is more likely to be in that [outer] ring and therefore could be more… interesting.”
• They exchange stories about group trips, Medieval Times, drinking wine from a horn, and how such adventures often come from peripheral friends (28:23–29:39).

6. Final Thoughts & Takeaways (30:24–31:40)

• Matt: “Cherish them. Cherish them like you do your, you know, most useful friend. Because everybody serves a purpose.” (30:30)
• Aaron: “The most useful friends you have are the ones that are useless.” (30:39)
• Both reflect on personal examples—Aaron shouts out his friend Shane as a perfect “useless friend” who’s “super fun, always down to hang, doesn’t give a what I do.” (31:13)
• Matt: “Those are all, to me, very useful qualities.” (31:37)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the friend “utility” debate:
  “Do you want someone to be friends with you because you serve a purpose to them or because they like you?”
  — Matt Ritter (07:49)

• On circle diversity:
  “I think a good… diversity in your friend group… I think it’s good to have a friend with a big truck who can move stuff for you... and it’s good to just have someone who can do nothing.”
  — Aaron Karo (15:36)

• On lasting value:
  “Our friendship isn’t always active all the time, or as active as you want it to be. Not all friendships need to be active all the time for them to still be friends.”
  — Matt Ritter (16:09)

• Reframing the core question:
  “How do you look at the value of a friend? If they make you feel good and you enjoy the company, that should be enough.”
  — Matt Ritter (24:37)

• On friend “missions”:
  “Maybe that friend… that friendship completed its mission.”
  — Matt Ritter (17:09)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:12–02:04 — Introduction of “useless friends” theory (Arthur Brooks)
• 04:09–04:43 — Critique of transactional friendship and the “level up” mentality
• 07:19–07:39 — Dog-sitting reciprocity anecdote
• 13:13–18:47 — Listener question: keeping up with old friends as lives diverge
• 19:04–21:44 — High school reunions, Plainview nostalgia
• 26:16–27:18 — “Fringe”/outer circle friends and diversity
• 30:24–30:49 — Cherishing the “useless” friends

Final Takeaways

• Joy Over Utility: The real value in friendship isn’t measurable by utility or productivity, but by the joy, comfort, and energy friends bring.
• Diversity Matters: Beyond inner circle “clones,” outer and “useless” friends inject variety and help us experience new things.
• Friendship Is Seasonal: Not all friendships need to be constantly active, and sometimes a relationship’s season simply ends, and that’s okay.
• Cherish the Useless: Sometimes, the most “useless” friends are the ones who give our lives the most real, unquantifiable meaning.

Call to Action:
Matt and Aaron encourage listeners to reflect on and celebrate their own “useless” and “useful” friends—and to send in their stories or questions for future episodes.

Sign-off:
“Always remember, be good to yourself, be good to your friends. Love you, buddy.” (31:59)