#167 - How to Make Friends as an Introvert

Summary

---

Man of the Year: Champions of Friendship

Episode #167 – How to Make Friends as an Introvert
Hosts: Matt Ritter & Aaron Karo
Date: January 13, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Matt and Aaron tackle a common listener challenge: how can introverts successfully make and maintain friendships? Drawing on their years of "friendship expertise" (and characteristic humor), the hosts aim to debunk misconceptions around introversion and friendship, provide specific, actionable tips for introverts, and offer support for those who feel isolated—while addressing a listener's honest question about loneliness and self-care gone too far.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introverts vs. Extroverts: Friendship Myths and Skills

Timestamps: 00:59–03:56

• Myth-Busting:

  • Many introverts claim standard friendship advice doesn’t work for them, but Matt insists, "Extroverts are not better at friendship than introverts." (02:24)
  • Aaron jokingly agrees, but acknowledges extroverts might find "initiating" slightly easier in large groups.

• Introvert Superpowers:

  • Matt praises introverts for elite friendship skills: listening, remembering details, going deep, being emotionally available, and comfort with silence.

• Friendship Is for Everyone:

  • The challenge isn’t introversion itself, but finding the right approaches: “The ways, the stereotypical ways of...friendship making...maybe need to be reframed or tweaked for you." (03:34–03:56)

2. The Four Levels of Friendship-Making—Introvert Edition

Timestamps: 05:42–16:26

Matt and Aaron apply their “four levels of friend making” framework specifically for introverts:

Level 1: Existing Friends

(07:14–09:40)

• Instead of “making friends from scratch,” prioritize re-engaging with people you already know.
• Key hacks:
  • Send a "thinking of you" text.
  • Share an old photo.
  • Post to a group chat.
  • “It’s much easier, especially if you're an introvert, to just connect with someone you already are friends with…light the fuse again or, you know, turn the light back on.” (07:49)

Level 2: Friends of Friends ("Warm Leads")

(09:43–12:06)

• Moving cities? Utilize your network: ask friends if they know people in your new town.
• Matt coins it a "confidence hack": being introduced by a mutual friend "makes it not daunting."
• Aaron reminds listeners, “You'll get one response. You never know until you try. No harm, no foul.” (11:17)

Level 3: Fringe Friends (Acquaintances)

(12:06–14:56)

• Approach neighbors, colleagues, gym acquaintances—people you already interact with superficially.
• Make the encounter introvert-friendly: suggest settings with low sensory overload ("Do you like walks? Don't you go for a walk?").
• Focus on leveling up just one acquaintance—don't pressure yourself to convert every fringe friend.
• “Instead of thinking about it as small talk, it’s...like you have to complete level one of this game.” (14:56)

Level 4: Total Strangers

(15:22–18:51)

• The hardest step for everyone, not just introverts!
• The "third place" theory: Consistently visit a place you enjoy outside home and work (e.g., a coffee shop, gym, chess club).
• Process > Outcome: Don't set out to “make a friend”—just enjoy yourself and let familiarity breed opportunity.
• "If you go out and say, 'My goal is to make a new friend tonight,' you're going to fail every time because you can't control that." (16:39–17:01)
• Tips for breaking the ice:
  • Wear a "statement tee or hat" to invite conversation.
  • Use open body language, smile, offer compliments, ask simple questions.

3. Debating Identity: Are Introverts Locked Out?

Timestamps: 18:51–21:40

• Matt wonders if “identifying” as an introvert becomes a limiting belief that blocks social experimentation.
• Aaron says introversion/extroversion is a spectrum, even for them: "I was at an event the other night…should I talk to them? And I just ended up not."
• Matt reframes: "Your social health involves multiple tiers…it's great to have deep friends, but you also need some shallow connections too." (19:30)

4. Listener Question: Self-Care or Self-Isolation?

Timestamps: 22:16–27:53

Listener asks: If I do everything “right” for an introvert—quiet nights, alone time—but feel lonelier than ever, am I actually isolating myself?

• Matt references recent articles (including The New York Times) questioning if prioritizing self-care leads to loneliness.
  • "You can overcorrect yourself into loneliness with this…'Oh, I have to protect my energy.'"
• Aaron reflects: "Of course you'll never be in an uncomfortable situation if you never go out…Of course you're very lonely because…you've been staying home all the time."
• Solution: Experiment—decrease isolation incrementally, see if more socializing improves your sense of fulfillment.
• Matt’s analogy: “If at the end of the day you have a low phone battery, do you say, 'What a waste'? No, you did a bunch of stuff, and that's why you have a low battery. Congratulations. Batteries are for [using]." (26:00–26:27)
• Aaron’s advice: “A great form of self-care is hanging out with your friends.” (25:21–25:27)

5. Should Introverts Only Befriend Other Introverts?

Timestamps: 28:40–29:20

• Both hosts agree: No, a healthy social circle spans both types.
• Aaron jokes, "Extroverts could use some introverts around to absorb their body blows…and need extroverts to make the party fun." (28:58)

6. Advice for Extrovert–Introvert Friendship Pairs

Timestamps: 29:20–31:15

• Extroverts: Include and introduce introverts, don’t pressure or “fix” them.
• Matt: "Maybe it's worth having that convo…'Just so you know, I'm pretty introverted. I'm not like someone who's going to be serially calling or texting…'"
• Aaron: It’s also fine to say “I'm not a big bar guy," or "I'm not a great texter."
• Ensure introverts feel included and comfortable without being pushed.

7. Closing Thoughts and Call for Feedback

Timestamps: 31:31–32:22

• The hosts ask introvert listeners to share their thoughts: "What did we get wrong? We're just two extroverts trying to see if we…hacked it." (31:31)
• Last joke: “Matt, I don't know if these introverts are going to be able to send us a message. It might be too much for them.” –Aaron (31:54)
• Reminder: “Be good to yourself. Be good to your friends. Love you, buddy.” (32:19)

---

Notable Quotes

• “Extroverts are not better at friendship than introverts.”
  – Matt Ritter (02:24)

• “The problem isn’t the introversion. It’s just that introverts are not thinking about the ways that are the best for them to connect necessarily.”
  – Matt Ritter (03:21)

• “It’s much easier, especially if you’re an introvert, to just connect with somebody you already are friends with and you just need to light the fuse again.”
  – Matt Ritter (07:49)

• “Friends of friends is a confidence hack. It’s a complete and total confidence hack.”
  – Matt Ritter (10:22)

• “If you go out and say, ‘My goal is to make a new friend tonight,’ you’re going to fail every time because you can’t control that.”
  – Aaron Karo (16:39)

• “You can overcorrect yourself into loneliness with this…‘Oh, I have to protect my energy’…the question should be, does this alone time make you feel good?”
  – Matt Ritter (24:43, 25:21)

• “A great form of self-care is hanging out with your friends.”
  – Aaron Karo (25:21)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introversion vs. Extroversion & myths: 00:59–03:56
• Making friends as an introvert – Four Levels: 05:42–16:26
  • Level 1: Existing friends (07:14)
  • Level 2: Friends of friends (09:43)
  • Level 3: Fringe friends (12:06)
  • Level 4: Total strangers (15:22)
• Navigating identity & social “tiers”: 18:51–21:40
• Listener Q: Self-care turning into isolation: 22:16–27:53
• “Introverts only befriend introverts?”: 28:40–29:20
• Extrovert–introvert friendship tips: 29:20–31:15
• Closing/jokes: 31:31–32:22

---

Tone & Style

Lively, humorous, and encouraging—Matt and Aaron mix personal anecdotes, practical advice, and friendly banter aimed at creating a supportive space for listeners of all personalities.

---

Takeaways for Introverts Seeking Friendship

• Leverage existing relationships first; reconnect rather than start from scratch
• Use friends-of-friends as “warm leads” to ease introductions
• Focus on deepening relationships with acquaintances (“fringe friends”) in your own style
• Consistency in shared-interest environments (“third places”) will naturally foster connection over time
• Don’t let being an “introvert” become a limiting belief—everyone needs a mix of deep and casual bonds for full social health
• Self-care is vital, but beware of isolation disguised as “protecting your energy”—small social stretches can be rejuvenating in the right doses

---

Matt’s parting challenge:
“Introverts, if you’re listening—what did we get wrong? We’re just two extroverts trying to see if we can…hack it.” (31:31)

Aaron’s sign-off:
"Be good to yourself. Be good to your friends. Love you, buddy." (32:19)

---

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Of the year. Man of the year. Man of the year. Welcome to the number one friendship podcast in the country. I'm Matt Ritter.

[A]

I'm Aaron Caro.

[B]

Guys, go to audible.com the buddy system get our best selling friends, friendship how to everything you ever needed to know or wanted to know about making and maintaining friends. Kara, I wanted to dive into a topic today. Just dive right in to one that we've gotten a lot kind of, I don't know, maybe like a, not like a criticism of us, but I feel like every now and then we get the, oh, this isn't for me. This advice isn't for me. People who try to exclude themselves from this advice advice because they say, oh, it doesn't apply to me. And that group is introverts, if you've noticed.

[A]

Yeah, well, you said, you know, a criticism. I don't, I don't listen to the criticism or take it in, in any way. So I wouldn't know about it. But, but yes, we are two extroverts and we do sometimes get comments from introverts that our system, that the buddy system doesn't work for them.

[B]

Right. And it's not even that they've read the audio or listened to it. It's that they feel there is nothing that they can do because of the fact that they're introverts. So I thought you and I could go and put our introvert lens on.

[A]

Guys, make sure to check out our YouTube where you could see Matt. I don't even know how to describe what he's doing. He's kind of doing the Batman thing that you did when you were a little kid. Yeah, you put your fingers.

[B]

I was gonna do a soundtrack.

[A]

So I think that we should, you know, we, in the, in the audio and in the podcast, we talk about the four levels of friend making which are existing friends, friends of friends, fringe friends, and total strangers. I thought maybe we should put our introvert hat on and discuss how you can make friends as an introvert in each of these scenarios.

[B]

Well, that's great, but let's back up because I don't, I want to honor what you're saying.

[A]

Okay. Yes, Yes, I want to rephrase. Yeah.

[B]

So introversion being an introvert doesn't make friendship harder. Extroverts are not better at friendship than introverts. I want to say that again. Extroverts are not better at friendship than introverts.

[A]

Well, they're a little better.

[B]

They are maybe better at the initiating, at the what you're talking about. The total effing strangers. You know, they are louder and you know, maybe they're, it's, they have an ease in entering a room full of strangers. However, introverts are great at listening, remembering details, getting deep, being emotionally available, being comfortable with silence. A lot of elite friendship skills. So the problem isn't the introversion. It's just that, you know, introverts are not thinking about, you know, the ways that are the best for them to connect necessarily.

[A]

Yeah, but it's also, it's not just like literally speaking to somebody at a bar. You know, extra introverts might not reach out and make plans.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

They may not be as comfortable in a big group setting.

[B]

Yes. So actually what we're saying again is the same thing, is that you're not bad at making friends or having friendships. You're just the, the ways, the stereotypical ways of, you know, friendship making and plan making maybe need to be reframed or tweaked for you. That's really all it is.

[A]

Okay, I have a pitch for you, Matt.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In a bar, there should be an introvert section. It's got, instead of the person in a handicap, like in a wheelchair, it's a. Someone holding a drink, like, or they're doing this thing, you know, like the, the, the shy, the shy hand motion that the Gen Z does. And then those people can circulate.

[B]

Should it be like a quiet room? Like a quiet car on a train?

[A]

Yeah, Like, I don't know if you've seen, I don't know if I've been to like a festival with you lately, but they have. God, what's it called when you, when there's a lot of like stuff happening? You can go into like a, like a trailer and it removes, what's the word? What's the stuff? Like, like certain people can't have stimuli. Like if you get over stimulated, they have like a little rubber room for you to run and get into.

[B]

Well, listen, introverts don't like loud bars. They don't like the four small. So they don't like the group dynamics. They don't like the performative socializing. Right. So yeah, maybe, but also maybe they shouldn't be at bars.

[A]

Well, no, I mean, we like introverts at bars.

[B]

No, I'm just saying if you're trying to make a friend, like again, you know, it's, it's. They need, they need to be in their element. Right? And introverts, there's plenty of elements, right. Going with one person somewhere. Right. Maybe one on Ones are better or routine based relationships are better things that are, you know, just easier for them to not have friction. Right. Really what we try to do is try to try to design the buddy system was about designing your life for friendship. Right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, listen, a lot of friendship is. Or making new friends, I would say is talking to strangers, making you, you said performative small talk. We've discussed episode of small talk. But like you can't get the big talk until you start the small talk. Right? I mean like, so that is a skill that is necessary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I, I think, I guess I just want to disabuse people of the notion that like, like we just roll up to people at bars and be like, hey, that's right, that's right.

[B]

It's hard for anybody. It's awkward for everybody. Introverts need to know that we're all faking it. Right. On some level when we do that.

[A]

Now do we, do we care that we, we once had that conversation about the true definition of introvert and extrovert is exact. Not exactly what we say it is.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's whatever everybody thinks it is based on what we're saying now.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I again, I think it's, you know, trying to meet new people is hard for everybody. Trying to make a new friend is. That's not really the goal. We talk about that all the time. We just want to give you low pressure on ramps, right? Yeah, like, that's like low pressure on ramps. Low pressure, better structure, let's remove the friction. And there's a million ways to do that that we talk about. Right.

[A]

Okay, so let's talk about some advice for, for introverts. So first of all, I would say, and we are, we talk, we're talking about making new friends.

[B]

Sure, let's start there.

[A]

Yeah. So I, I would say that our actually, our first tip from the, from the buddy system actually is even more important now, which is existing friends. We have a lot of men who say they don't have friends, but then, yeah, we're like, oh, but you just haven't spoken to your friends. Everyone has had friends at some point in their life.

[B]

It's a great one, Carol. Because as we get older, in our 40s, 50s, 60s, whatever, especially if you're an introvert, the last thing you want to do is make a new friend from scratch at all. And you don't have to right click. A lot of these people that we're talking to don't have to. It's so much easier, especially if you're an introvert, to just connect with somebody you already are friends with and you just need to light the fuse again or, you know, turn the light back on and let them know that, you know, we're open for business.

[A]

Right. So we would say to our introverts out there, just take a minute and a quick gut check. Are you sure that you don't have existing friends that you just haven't interacted with in a while? That could be months. I mean, it could be years.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

It's very common for men to let their friendships lie fallow. Oh, I haven't talked to Jim in six months. Well, that's done. No, you're gonna. It's much easier to text Jim than it is some new person.

[B]

You're gonna. Right, exactly. Especially if, like you're a wife sitting at home thinking about that too. Like, and you have an introverted husband, it's going to be much easier to get him back in touch with one of his actual friends that never had a falling out. They just had some sort of falling off versus going, hey, Jim, I'm going to bring you to this social mixer at the school and you're going to go talk to the dads and become friends with them. That's very intimidating for an introvert.

[A]

And as we've said many times, just a couple tips for re engaging with your friends. Send them a text thinking about you. Send them an old photo. Remember this? Maybe if you have a group chat, if it's too awkward to text just one person, just text the group chat and then maybe one or two people respond. And also remember our advice that men actually like receiving texts from their buddies. So don't think if you send a text, you're not going to like it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So that's. Sorry.

[B]

Yeah, no, go ahead.

[A]

So that's level one of our introvert guides. Start with your existing friends. If you need to go dig them up somewhere. The second one is friends of friends. Now this is generally what we talk about if you've moved to a new city. You know, you move from Chicago to Dallas. You ask your friends in Chicago, do you have any friends in Dallas? That way you get warm leads on making new friends.

[B]

I like warm leads. You know, I think warm leads is good because I think that's really an introvert fear the coldness of it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, temperature, the temperature of that early stage is important for introverts. I think the warmer that lead, the warmer the just they feel about their ability to. To Pull it off. Right? It's interesting. It's a confidence hack. Friends of Friends is a confidence hack. It's a complete and total confidence hack to have one of your friends say good things about you and say good things about this other person and put you guys together on a text and say, I think you guys are going to get along. You live in the same city. It's. To me that's like, oh, man, this is, this is, this is not daunting now.

[A]

Yeah, just exactly what you said. Like, I think introverts have, have take longer to warm up. So this is, this is just being delivered piping hot to you already.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Again, it. We're, we're. This is not you talking to a complete stranger. This is someone that your friend is already friends with. The stakes are a lot lower. The small talk can be a lot lower. You could talk about your mutual friend. Also, just to disabuse another limiting belief, you may be thinking, well, I did move to a new city, but no one from my old city knows anybody in this new city. You don't know that. I guarantee you. You don't know all of your cousins, fraternity brothers, or all your co workers, you know, friends from high school. Like, if you BCC 10 people and say, hey, I just moved to X place, do you know anyone? You'll get one response. You never know until you try. No harm, no foul.

[B]

Totally agree.

[A]

So then our. The next level as we start getting trickier is Fringe Friends, right? So this is the second from the most difficult, and this is acquaintances that you have. We just did an episode called Finding Fringe Friends, which is people you know, a neighbor, a coworker, somebody at the gym, who, you know their name, they know your name. You're not buddies, but they're not strangers.

[B]

And I find for these people, again, you know, maybe they're not as warm as the friends of friends, but you get to dictate how you want to establish that interaction with those people really too, if you want to try and have a real friendship with them. And so part of that for you, the win is in suggesting a venue or an outcome where again, you, you don't show up feeling like, oh, this is going to drain me, right? Maybe it's like, hey, do you like walks? Don't you go for a walk?

[A]

And you're also, again, you're talking to somebody you already know, right? So like the, you're just kind of trying to develop that friendship a little bit more. You also get to choose who you're like, you know, if you think about your French friends, you're all your. Make a list right now, the people in your head, you're gonna choose the one you like the best, choose the one that you think is the closest to becoming a real friend. Not all fringe friends will get leveled up, but, like, it's a good. It's another warm lead where you don't have to, like, again, be randomly talking to somebody, like, blow out your social battery. You already chat with them at work. You already chat with them, you know, when you're taking out the garbage, just, like, take the one extra step of asking them what they're doing that night or next week or any recommendations for a restaurant?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And. And on that note, right, so this is where we get into the, you know, we call leveling up friendships. And I feel this is where introverts are scared and have this not irrational, but, you know, misdiagnosed idea that because they hate small talk, and that's level one of this thing. How could they ever get to level 5 or level 7? So how do they get deeper? Right? And so part of that is you do have to accept that, you know, on some level, you need to do things that everybody does, right? People call it small talk. Whatever. If you're with a fringe friend from work, you're going to probably start with talking about work. That's what's good about it, right? It is small talk, but it's connective tissue to get you. Instead of thinking about it as small talk, it's. It's like you have to complete level one of this game.

[A]

I encourage our listeners to go to our small talk episode, which is episode 84. I just looked it up. Which is where Matt did not know the definition of small talk. He kept saying, yeah. I just said, yeah.

[B]

I like to skip to medium talk is. Is how I frame it.

[A]

All right, Matt, here, I'll let you choose our adventure. Do you want to go to total strangers, or do you want to take a question first?

[B]

Let's just go to total effing strangers.

[A]

Okay. We're not cursing anymore. Right, Sorry. Yeah. Okay. So the hardest level of friend making is total effing strangers, which is then you're literally going to meet a new person and you're going to turn them into a friend. And this is difficult for extroverts and introverts alike. If you read the buddy system, our general advice is to find your third place. First place is home. Second place is work. Third place is anywhere between besides home and work, where people gather and Socialize, you want to find your golf, your golf being your passion. So if you love chess, you're going to join a chess club. If you work out a lot, you're going to go to the gym. If you're a coffee guy like Matt, you're going to hit the coffee shop. The key is to go regularly and consistently. You're going to go to the same place at the same time every week or every day. You're not going to go to a random class at the gym. You're going to go to the Tuesday at 8am every single week or every single day if it's a coffee shop. And they're going to start seeing familiar faces. Right? So yeah, so I was going to.

[B]

Say some of the issues with that, right. It's scary because. Or you have to be the one to reach out on those places, right? Like total effing stranger somebody. We, we say be the friend. I think that one's really hard for them.

[A]

Well, let's also just talk about process versus outcome. When you're going to your third place, you're not trying to make a new friend. You're trying to enjoy your passion, your coffee, your surf club, your chess, your run club. And maybe you have a fun conversation. Maybe you say hello to two people. If you go out and say, I need. My goal is to make a new friend tonight, you're going to fail every time because you can't control that.

[B]

Right? But I think another thing introverts do is that internal narrative, the limiting beliefs. What if I'm interrupting somebody? What if I'm annoying? What if I don't respond? And that's something all of us feel again, so that I know that that fear of initiation is, is scary for introverts. So maybe reframe that as, you know, what's worse? Having that one, you know, hey, how you doing? Whatever. You know any good restaurants around here? Or not having any friends, you know, like again, like the, the harm is very low for just doing it. Right. Again, we talk about like the thing about failing or whatever. Like if somebody doesn't want to talk to you, that's not somebody you wanted to be friends with anyway. It's no big deal. So reframing it is like it's, it's not a rejection to not have it, you know, become a friend every. Anytime you say hi to somebody at a coffee shop. It's just the reps of putting yourself out there and maybe in some way just overcoming the fear that it's that big of a deal.

[A]

Couple Hacks for our introverts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you're in your third place, one is wear a statement tee or statement hat. So you're wearing a hat with an obscure band or your college or something that gets people to come and make a comment about it. So people come up and talk to you. Number two, you just want to have a OTF stance and open, a friendship stance. Your body language is open, you're smiling. Pleases and thank yous compliments.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Are always great. Love your hat. Love that. How's the questions? How's the, how the hot wings? You know, what are the Dodgers doing? Like this isn't, you know, and, and if they just give you a one word answer. Great.

[B]

Yeah. Can I ask if you think that part of this issue is that, you know, when you identify as, as an introvert, it becomes part of your identity and it's almost like you feel like you're not being true to yourself by doing some of this stuff. I wonder if that's a bit of a fear here.

[A]

Not being intrude yourself by asking like they're talking to people.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

By going out and doing this, trying this stuff.

[A]

I mean, listen, it's, it's. I also think this intro version extra is a spectrum.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you know, I, you and I have been. I was at an event the other night and there were a couple people and I was like, should I talk to them? And I just ended up not.

[B]

Right, right, right. And, but again, I, I want to go back to the bigger picture. So our goal, you know, is for you to look at friendship holistically from a much bigger perspective. Social connection from bigger perspective. So this idea that like, oh, I take long to warm up or, you know, I don't feel comfortable with small talk because I'm an introvert or, you know, I don't, I only really want deep friendships, you know, I don't want any of this casual stuff. That's not me. That's life. That's human connection. That's existing in the world. Your social health involves multiple tiers to be fully socially healthy. It involves having casual people that you nod to at coffee shops. It involves having small. I truly believe that people that are socially healthy, it's great to have deep friends, but you also need some shallow connections too. It's hard to get through the day to day without both.

[A]

Yeah, but I mean, by telling introverts, just get over it. I don't know if that's that helpful.

[B]

I'm not saying get over it. That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying maybe a little reframe. It's not get over it. It's. It's that you're creating a limiting belief with this identity structure that says I am. Look, I think it's important to keep the part that's real, that is important, which is that, hey, you have a certain energy and a battery and a social battery. And like, if it's low, you need to or you don't, you know, big groups overwhelm you. Those things are all real. I don't think it's real to say, oh, you know, small talk. I can't do that. Everybody has an issue with it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, small talk. Listen, small talk is, is, Is a tough one. I think we also talked about third place, but also third thing, where if you're in a venue or and you're talking, you're talking to a new person, talk about something that's happening in the venue. You know, whether it's, I don't want to say the weather, but it's like the. Some someone else who just walked in or have they been there before or what do you recommend? You know, questions are always. Are always good.

[B]

Should we get to our listener question?

[A]

We'll be right back with a listener question.

[C]

Revitalize your bathroom with big savings at Lowe's. Get up to 40% off select vanities and free delivery during our bath savings event. Plus get up to 40% off select shower heads. No matter what style you're looking for, we've got you covered. Shop for your bathroom refresh at Lowe's. We help you save while supplies last selection varies by location.

[A]

Okay, guys, this is asking for a friend. If you have a friendship question or ethical dilemma, send it to us on Instagram on. On at man of the Year podcast on Instagram. We'll answer on the show. Matt, take it away.

[B]

Okay. I've always identified as an introvert. And I've built my whole life around protecting my energy, alone time, quiet nights, few social commitments. But now in my 30s and I feel lonelier than I ever have, even though I'm doing everything right for an introvert. How do you know when self care is. Is actually just isolation? So this is what I was trying to get to. I wanted to get to this question because this is. That question kind of hit me as, like, we live in this era of self care. There was a recent, I think it was a New York Times article. I want to find it and send it to you later. But it was this idea of like a Self care, making us lonely by quote unquote, protecting our energy all the time to the detriment of friendship. Right. There's been a lot of talk in the friend lately about how, yeah, friendship can be a burden. That's part of it. Like, part of it is that it's like a selfless act to be a friend. Like you're taking on other people's stuff.

[A]

Did you just say friendosphere?

[B]

Maybe here.

[A]

I don't know. No, I'm just saying. Is that new? Is that a new term?

[B]

Friends, fenders? I don't know what I just said.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think the world of. The world of friend. The study of friendship, which is friendology, which we're basically the.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Founders. Friendologist. Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, of course, what jumped out of me at that listener question, probably. Thank you for the question is I did everything right for an introvert. I'm like, yeah, what does that mean? You know, there's, there's. Of course you'll never be in an uncomfortable situation if you never go out, right. You'll never drain your social battery if you never use it. Of course you're very lonely because you're. You've been staying home all the time. So I think what you're describing, Matt, is like you can over. Sounds like a little bit overcorrect. Over correction. Over correction.

[B]

Right, right, right, right. I think that's it. And I think that's what some of these articles I read recently really hit me with, like, oh, yeah, you can really overcorrect yourself into loneliness with this. Like, oh, I have to protect my energy. Self care, this and that. Because the question shouldn't be, oh, you know, am I an introvert or an extrovert? And this is how introverts live. It's like, does this alone time make you feel good? Right. I mean, because if it's. If it were healthy, right, you'd be calm, you'd be clear, you'd be open, but you wouldn't be super sad and lonely. Right. I mean, unhealthy solitude is what that sounds like to me.

[A]

You know what a great form of self care is, Matt? Hanging out with your friends?

[B]

Yes, that is self care. Look, I always say. I always say, despite the idea that, you know, introverts, after they socialize, their energy battery level is low. I don't believe that that's true in all of their hangs. I think when you have a good hang with a close friend, it does rejuvenate you. Maybe not in the moment. Maybe you do need to go recharge. Right. I will accept that. But I will also not accept that overall you have a better energy.

[A]

Let me do a Matt style reframe here. Okay. Let's say Matt, you're on your phone all day and you're on Instagram and you're making calls and you're watching funny videos and at the end of the day you have a low battery. Do you go, oh, I just. What a waste. I did all this stuff on my phone. No, you did a bunch of stuff and that's why you have a low battery.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Congratulations.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Batteries are for.

[B]

Right, exactly. And you know, all of us are. Our batteries need to be charged in different ways. Right. But I do believe, you know, like you said, like, I think, you know, if you go to a loud bar and that drains you, fine, you're an introvert. If you sit with your best friend who actually sees you and knows you and gets you, that's self care, that's health, that's, you know, the good stuff, the good medicine. So I think it's a little bit about figuring out who refills you and how they refill you.

[A]

Sorry about that. Yeah. And if you, if you're hanging out with your best friend and that drains you, I think you have anemia. I mean, you have to go to the hospital. So I think it is. Well, first of all, I think it's good to know thyself. So this the question asker. Like, okay, I need to, I need to take care of myself certain ways. Okay, let's experiment. Let's do some A B testing. What if I decrease my isolation 10% and increase my, you know, going out a little bit, Do I feel full? Do I feel different?

[B]

Right. And you know, I wasn't trying to be dismissive of introverts. I think I was trying to be. What I always am is telling people you're allowed to evolve beyond identities that you've claimed for yourself.

[A]

Also, people can be both. People can be bifurcated.

[B]

Yeah, right, right. This, right. This notion that we have a hard and fast line on things. Imx you are Y. Therefore I subscribe to these philosophies. You know, we love doing this binary in, in the world in a lot of ways.

[A]

Yeah. So I think that, yeah, it's also like you. I mean, what, what do you expect is going to happen if you're, if you're isolating yourself like that? So I think it's just referring back to the previous, in our, in our episode of some of the tips and hacks you can employ to make some friends in an introvert friendly way. By the way, Matt, sorry, this is a side note. Tell me if you want to run with it. You think introverts can only be friends with other introverts? Like should they be seeking out fellow intros?

[B]

I don't know the answer to that because I don't think it's just I only hang out with people who also, you know, have the same sort of battery, social battery. I don't think that's, I don't think that's right. Yeah, I don't think so.

[A]

I mean I think extroverts could use some introverts around to absorb their body blows. Yeah, it's need extroverts to like make the party fun.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I think we need a diversity of a range of friends on that spectrum. I think introverts need people to understand that they're introverts.

[A]

Okay, interesting, but okay. What tip do you have for an extrovert? When they find out someone's an introvert.

[B]

You know, don't pressure them into showing up for things that they've kind of. Sometimes they express it in subtle, subtler ways. Right. Sometimes they're not able to, you know, respond in the same ways that you're used to. Maybe they're not rapid fire texting back. Communicate, you know, and I think, I think it's good to communicate with your friends. If you're an extrovert or introvert, maybe it's worth having that convo with a new friend about how you communicate and in what ways that it affects you. If it does, it's like, hey, I just so you know, you know, I'm pretty introverted. I, you know, I'm not like somebody who's going to be serially calling you or texting you. So, you know, but would love to do xyz.

[A]

I don't know. That feels a little bit like, I don't know. That feels a little much to me.

[B]

Yeah. Maybe you don't have to say it that way, you know, so I do X. But like, you know, hey, I'm not, you know, I'm not great tech. It's okay to say I'm not a great texter or it's okay to say I'm not a big bar guy. There's a lot of that.

[A]

Latter one is different. Not a good texter. We've talked about this.

[B]

No, you can be, you can be, you can be somebody who. It finds it exhausting to text all Day with people.

[A]

I was actually more saying, when you're out with someone who's an introvert, a couple things you could do as an extrovert. Make sure they're introduced. Being over introduced or make sure they know everybody who's there. Make. Be a good middler from Kirby enthusiasm. Make sure people are included in the conversation, stuff like that.

[B]

Also be comfortable with them being an introvert. Don't try to fix them.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I always say to you. Just don't try to fix me. Couldn't be done.

[B]

Keep upon in the arts.

[A]

All right, do we answer this question?

[B]

I think so. I. I think so. I hope so.

[A]

All right, guys, this was asking for a friend. Let us know if you have a listener question. Send it to us on Instagram. Matt, any final thoughts before we sign off here?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Introverts, if you're listening, what did we get wrong? We're just two extroverts trying to see if we can. If we. If we. We hacked it.

[A]

Oh, are we. Is this like. Is it like cultural appropriation, what we just did?

[B]

Maybe, maybe, maybe. We'll see. We'll see. Was it was. It was a diet thorny one, but we, we keep getting comments about it, so we wanted to address it. We're doing our best. It's always an evolution. We're always learning.

[A]

Matt, I don't know if these introverts are going to be able to send us a message. It might be too much for them.

[B]

Oh, he's coming in hot. It's coming out. We're leaving, we're leaving.

[A]

I know. Whenever. Whenever we finish an episode, Matt's like, stop alienating our audience right at the very end.

[B]

You like to do it right at the end to see if they're still listening.

[A]

Yeah, it's exactly right. That's a lay, right? No, but introverts, we do want to hear from you. We love you. Thank you so much for listening. Always remember, be good to yourself. Be good to your friends. Love you, buddy.

[B]

Love you, buddy.

[D]

We've all been there. You hold on to a coupon, hoping to cash it in at the store, but then you forget about it and suddenly you've got a mountain of useless expired coupons.

[A]

Do you think this one's still good?

[C]

Free milk.

[D]

Oh, mate, that expired in 1993.

[C]

Dang it.

[D]

Fortunately, there are better ways to save money. Like by switching to Geico, you could save about $900 on car insurance without ever touching a coupon.

[A]

Ooh, how about this one? Half off floppy disks.

[D]

Now you should try a bit of spring cleaning.

[A]

It feels good to save big.

[B]

It feels good to geico.

[E]

Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it. Even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide.

[A]

If you like the show, please take a moment to rate review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.