Company Change With A Promotion Is Unlikely - For Managers - Part 2

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Manager Tools

Episode: Company Change With A Promotion Is Unlikely - For Managers - Part 2

Date: June 8, 2026
Hosts: Sarah (A) & Mark (B)

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Overview

This episode continues the deep dive into why changing companies to receive a promotion, especially into management roles, is exceptionally rare—except at the executive level or when moving to smaller firms. Sarah and Mark break down the business rationale for why these moves almost never work, discuss organizational culture, and provide career advice for ambitious listeners considering a cross-company move with the hope of earning a bigger title.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Why Cross-Company Promotions Rarely Happen for Managers

[01:10 - 06:00]

• Hard "No" on IC-to-Manager Moves:

  • Promoting an individual contributor (IC) to manager at another company is “perhaps the most prohibited of all such moves.”
    • “If we heard it had happened, we would assume the hiring company was both desperate and was not well managed.” — Mark [01:33]
  • Such moves are so rare that exceptions are likely cases of nepotism or organizational desperation.

• The Real Promotion Gap:

  • The jump from IC to manager is “the second most significant gap in promotion responsibilities that exists.”
  • The toughest part of this move isn’t about becoming a boss to former friends; it’s the dramatic difference in responsibilities.
    • “A lot of folks wash out at that step.” — Sarah [03:44]

• Why New Managers Struggle:

  • Poor training and lack of exposure to management tasks leaves many new managers unprepared.
    • “The problem stems from the fact that they had no idea what they were getting themselves into because the organization didn’t teach them, their boss didn’t delegate to them.” — Sarah [04:58]

• Failure to Educate:

  • Most organizations do not adequately educate people about what management really entails before promotion.

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2. Organizational and Cultural Reasons

[06:00 - 10:58]

• Learning Curves Compound When Moving Companies:

  • New managers at a new company face steep learning curves: unfamiliar teams, processes, performance systems, and have no internal relationships.
  • "You'll have no relationships to rely on... no mentors... and your boss really can't be an effective mentor." — Mark [07:56]

• Corporate Adaptation:

  • Organizations have learned—often the hard way—that outside promotions into first-time manager roles don’t work, so simply avoid it altogether.
    • “They've tried this before. It's better to hire that first level manager from within. And so they do. That’s what they do.” — Sarah [09:15]

• Military Analogy:

  • Mark connects this to military doctrine: just as armies learned not to stop during an ambush, companies learned not to fill first-time manager roles externally because of repeated failure.

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3. What If You Don’t See Promotion Potential Internally?

[10:58 - 12:34]

• No Shortcut via Changing Companies:
  • "If you're an individual contributor… and you're not getting a chance to get promoted, don't assume you can do it by going somewhere else.... You're going to have to go to another company in a similar individual contributor role somewhere else and win a promotion there internally." — Mark [10:58]

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4. Exceptions for Senior Executives

[12:34 - 16:46]

• Flexibility at the Top:

  • For senior executives, moving up a level via a company change is more common due to greater variance in job scope and responsibilities.
    • “This rule doesn’t apply nearly as strictly among senior executives.” — Sarah [12:34]
  • Title alignment is much less reliable at the top—actual responsibilities matter more.
    • “At the very top of organizations, relative rank becomes harder to determine by titles.” — Mark [14:33]

• Examples of Executive Moves:

  • VP with international experience being hired as an SVP by a firm wishing to expand globally.
  • GM with industry outsiders’ perspective being hired as SVP to drive transformation.
    • “Or maybe the CEO is looking to infuse an entrepreneurial spirit into a division and therefore hires a general manager from a company outside their industry to lead the division as an SVP.” — Sarah [15:49]

5. Moving to Smaller Companies as an Exception

[16:46 - 24:03]

• Promotion via Scope Change:

  • VP at a major firm may become CEO at a much smaller company—a promotion in title, but sometimes a lateral in responsibility.
    • “In fact, if you’re responsible for North America and Europe at a $10 billion company, you might be responsible for $6 billion in sales. If you’re going to a $1 billion company…” — Mark [17:17]

• Career Top-Heavy Pyramid:

  • As careers progress, promotions become scarce; sometimes the only way up is to leave for a smaller firm.
    • “The top of the pyramid narrows and there are just less positions.” — Sarah [19:00]

• Succession Planning:

  • Mark references Manager Tools’ “If Not You, Who?” podcast for understanding how companies plan CEO succession.
    • “There is a concept among the CEO succession process called if not you who? And it is a manager tools cast and I encourage you to listen to it.” — Mark [20:37]

• Small Companies and Growth:

  • Small companies often import big-company leaders to gain systems, processes, and industry relationships they lack.
  • These external "promotions" occur, but often the scope of responsibility is actually smaller than what the exec handled at a larger firm.

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6. Memorable Quotes & Takeaways

• On Manager Moves:

  • “Promoting an individual contributor to manager at another company is… not done.” — Mark [01:32]
  • “We should have educated them to make better career decisions. That’s the real problem.” — Sarah [05:55]

• On Organizational Learning:

  • “Large organizations have learned through trial and error… that this move is untenable.” — Sarah [08:50]
  • “That’s cultural adaptation, folks. One of the most powerful forces in human history.” — Mark [10:58]

• On Executive Titles:

  • “Titles are misleading and you have to really get into the responsibilities.” — Mark [16:14]

• On Career Hope:

  • “Just because you know of it or you’ve heard of it, doesn’t mean that in your role… that this is a viable career path for you. This is not a strategy.” — Sarah [23:29]
  • “Hope is not a method.” — Mark [24:08]

7. Episode Summary and Advice

[24:10 - 25:08]

• Promotions via an external company move are exceptionally unlikely for non-executives.
• For those seeking upward mobility, the only practical approach is to move laterally to another organization and work for an internal promotion.
• At the executive level, such moves are more common, usually in the context of moving to smaller firms or via dramatic shifts in scope.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------------|--------------| | IC-to-manager moves across companies | 01:10–04:58 | | Organizational/cultural reasons | 06:04–10:58 | | Advice for stuck ICs/managers | 10:58–12:34 | | Executive-level exceptions | 12:34–16:46 | | Small company "promotions": how and why | 16:46–24:03 | | Final summary & career strategy advice | 24:10–25:08 |

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Final Takeaway

Company-hopping into management or for a promotion is not a viable strategy below the executive tier; the path to advancement is almost always internal. Exceptions exist for those with unusual skills, or at the very top of the corporate ladder, especially when moving to smaller organizations. But for most, "hope is not a method"—set your sights on excellent performance, internal relationships, and learning what being a manager really requires, before assuming a better title is just a job switch away.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Manager Tools.

[B]

This is Sarah and I'm Mark.

[A]

Today's podcast company Change with Remotion Is Unlikely for Managers Part 2 of 2

[B]

as always folks, our content has been crafted by humans and we are now certified by Proudly Human. The questions this cast answers are can I change companies for a higher level job? How could I get a promotion while moving to a new company? Why do companies not often offer promotions to new hires?

[A]

If you want answers to these questions and more, keep listening.

[C]

If you're doing the work your team should be doing, you're not developing anyone, including yourself. You're just a very busy individual contributor with the title. The Effective Manager Conference teaches a delegation approach that builds your team's capability and accountability without micromanaging. It will be the day that changes how you lead. [e-mail] EMC

[B]

okay, so that's the why. Now let's get into some examples, some specifics. Individual contributor to manager is a hard no. Okay. Getting promoted from an individual contributor role to a manager role at a different company is perhaps the most prohibited of all such moves. By the way, it's not actually prohibited. It's simply not done.

[A]

It's just not done.

[B]

Yeah, frankly, if we heard it had happened, we would assume the hiring company was both desperate and was not well managed. And perhaps those conclusions aren't 100% accurate. But rest assured, this is so rare as to indicate a mistake happened along the way. You know, if you heard about it, maybe you'll find out later that somebody's brother or sister hired them and promoted them to manager with the move, which completely obliviates the idea that this is not a hard rule.

[A]

Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about why this type of promotion is particularly unacceptable. In addition to all of the other reasons above, folks, it's because the promotion to manager from individual contributor is the second most significant gap in promotion responsibilities that exists.

[B]

Now, before you go any further, you gotta know that right now everybody's saying second most. So most first most, right? And so I believe there are people who will say the toughest promotion is going from being friends with your direct your peer to getting promoted. That's what they say. And just for the record, folks, we want to debunk that that's not true. It may be true if you're individual contributors. That's a hard thing. Although I will tell you, if if me and Mike were friends and Mike got promoted, what kind of friend would I be if I wasn't super thrilled for him and I didn't want to be the best director I could be. I'd throw the promotion party for the guy. But we can debunk that a different way. We understand that that makes a promotion from individual contributor to manager harder. When you've got friends that you can no longer be friends with now as your directs, when you get promoted. But that never happens. Going from manager to senior manager, senior manager, director, director to senior director, direct sen or vice president, those people, there's no problem. Everybody understands you can't be friends with me anymore. I get it, you're my boss, it's fine. So clearly the friend thing is not so. Now, having said that, I've let people go back and forth in their minds about what is it, what is it? So now you tell them, go ahead and tell them.

[A]

So, yes. The second most though is that individual contributor to manager for the very first time. I mean, I got to tell you, a lot of folks wash out at that step. They do. They think they want it to be a manager. They start doing the job, they're like, whoa, this is completely different than being an individual contributor legit. It is, it is.

[B]

And sadly, corporate systems, the person doesn't want to be a manager more anymore. And it's not so much an up or out mentality, but it's a stay or go mentality, not a step back. Very few companies are enlightened enough and we talk to them about it to say, if you've got a manager who's not succeeding, ask him or her. Encourage them to become an individual contributor again. Yeah, they might have to take a cut in pay. Okay, maybe you can step down their pay over the course of a couple of years. You have more flexibility with pay than most people realize. But gosh, I think the idea that somebody gets promoted and they start failing and then, well, you have to go, is draconian and unnecessary. I think it's a way better cultural move to say, we understand you're not good at this, but you were great at the other level. Go back to the other level and help other people be good at it. Right. Help your manager manage the team without being a manager.

[A]

Well, I mean, if we really like, if we really want to get into it. The problem doesn't stem from the fact that they became a manager and they can't do management job. The problem stems from the fact that they had no idea what they were getting themselves into because the organization didn't teach them, their boss didn't delegate to them. They had no idea about anything other than those people Make a little bit more money. And it's the only way to make more money around here. And because they weren't delegated to and they weren't trained on how to do it, and they had no idea what the expectations were, they just saw someone do it and they thought they could do it. I mean, so the original problem in my mind stems from the fact that they never should have been promoted to a position that they didn't want to have in the first place.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But we didn't help them realize they didn't want it till we'd already given them the job. So, I mean, yeah, they should have

[B]

known better if they'd been exposed to the job they figured out. Now, we're not blaming them for not knowing. It's not their fault.

[A]

We should have educated them to make better career decisions. That's the thing. Like, we're not educating people to make good career decisions. That's the real problem.

[B]

Yeah, you'd hope that HR would say, no, we get it. This is the biggest promotion, the biggest change you'll ever go through in your corporate career, for the most part. There are other things that happen that are highly unusual, but in terms of normal careers, that's the biggest promotion other than CEO. And you'd think that HR would say, no, frankly, it's not your fault. We're responsible for making you ready. An interview to get the job does not make you ready. So we've got some work to do helping people understand what the role is. In fact, I was just thinking today, you know, we have now started releasing a lot of our CAS. I think we're up to 50 now, maybe a little less. Basically around the trinity in LMS modules, Learning Management System modules. You know, I'm thinking that there are a lot of companies out there that could license it and they would license that basic training to the individual contributors so that they could have some time on their own studying this stuff, learning this stuff, rather than. Yeah, you could send a training and we'll train individual contributors. We do that all the time at our Effective Manager conference. But still an LMS where it's easily available to them, they can use professional hours to go do it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, getting back to our thread here. To make a move to a different company, which is always a learning experience, of course, and to assume managerial duties, especially without a grounding in managerial basics, which is true for most, as we've made very clear, is a hill too steep for all but the very best performers, for all the reasons we stated earlier. And more. You won't know the strengths and weaknesses of your team when you go to that new company. Right. You won't know what the details of what. You won't know the details of what they do. Even if it's a similar thing to what you did. The company systems are different. You won't have been exposed to any of the personnel or performance systems in the new company. Performance reviews, pay systems, hiring processes, reporting systems, corporate cadence, all that will be new. For those of you who are familiar with the juggling Cohen, it's like being promoted into a job and all 20 of the balls are huge, or 15 of them are huge, and 5 of them are so massive that no one could do it. You'll have no relationships to rely on. Sarah referred to that earlier. You won't know how to answer any question your team asks you about how things work above you, or what to do about pay, or about sick leave, or about PTO or about HR issues or career guidance, or learning and development and so on. You'll have no mentors, except if a friend has hired you and your boss really can't be an effective mentor. They can develop you, but that's not a mentor. That's two different things.

[A]

Yeah, folks, I mean, we've been beating this drum for a while, so I think I've probably, we've probably gotten you there so far. But companies needn't have rules to avoid the situation for anything more than one simple reason. They've tried it before and it never seems to work. And it's a classic misunderstanding of how organizations work and grow and progress. It's a lot like the rule that companies don't allow political discussions at work. And it's not just that politics can be divisive or it's not just that this divisiveness comes at the expense of people's productivity. But large organizations have learned through trial and error, just like all cultural adaptations develop, that this move is untenable. They've tried it and it hasn't worked. And because it hasn't worked, they've essentially put a complete ban on the idea because every time they've tried it, it's failed miserably. So you know what? Let's just not even risk it. Let's just not even open that door because it's just not gonna work for us. We've tried this before. It's better to hire that first level manager from within. So they do. That's what they do.

[B]

Yeah, there's a military corollary to this. There are things you get taught as a tactic as a young leader. Mike and I were young officers, lieutenants and captains in the army about how to deal with an ambush on the road. And there are two types of ambushes, blocked ambushes and unblocked ambushes. But the answer is you don't stop because the purpose of the ambush is to make you stop. So you will be a stationary target.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

So the first thing you do is try to move through the ambush as fast as you possibly can. You may choose to go back and clean it up because there may be people behind you, but you don't stop. How did they learn that? Because when ambushes started, everybody stopped. And ambushes were super effective. And so some smart person a thousand years ago said, we're not stopping. Every time I've ever heard of anybody stop them. We're going to keep, you know, it was a terrible, it was a massacre. So we're going to keep going. We're just going to keep going.

[A]

And it worked.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's cultural adaptation, folks. One of the most powerful forces in human history. So just wrapping this up here, if you're an individual contributor and good for you being a manager, tools, listener, tip of the hat. And you're not getting a chance to get promoted, don't assume you can do it by going somewhere else. It's okay to correctly assess that your chances for promotion are too small or non existent at your existing firm, barring your lack of performance, as Sarah mentioned at the top of the show. But you're going to have to go to another company in a similar individual contributor role somewhere else and win a promotion there internally.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

Here's a challenge every organization faces. Your managers are not all managing the same way. Some are great, some are struggling. Most have never been taught a repeatable system for getting results and keeping their best people. They've just been promoted and left to figure it out. Manager tools can come to you. The Effective manager conference, delivered on site or virtually for your entire leadership team, gives every manager the same proven tools. One on ones feedback and delegation, one common language, one consistent standard, measurable results or your money back. Contact us at customerserviceanager-tools.com and ask about organizational training.

[A]

All right, now let's move on to the fact that it's different for executives and folks. This rule doesn't apply nearly as strictly among senior executives. The reason for that is senior executive roles vary in scope and responsibility far more than do lower level positions like a vice president at one large company may in Fact, have a job scope equal to or greater than a senior vice president at a different company. And this tends to be more true in different industries. And for the record, EVPs executive vice presidents generally outrank senior vice presidents or SVP's.

[B]

Yeah, although you know, that's, that's still true today. If you hear EVP scp, you're hearing about somebody at a higher level and somebody at a lower level. But now with the profusion of C suite jobs, there are a whole bunch of people who used to be EVPs who are now C suite people. I remember seeing a CXO Chief Experience Experience Officer. When I first saw cxo, I thought it was a way to say C and then introduce any letter you want here into the excellent thing. There's a cao, a cbo, a ccso. Actually, I don't know of any cbo, but I'm sure somebody will write me and say, actually we have a CBO and a CCO and a CDO and a CEO and a cf. There's certainly a CEO and a cfo. Never heard of a cgo. Oh no, I bet I have. You know, Chief Growth Officer Chief. It just goes right through. Maybe there's a cz, not a czo. When professionals read, when all of us read about such moves at the top of their companies or others, we tend to compare titles. But again, the point here is that is less the marker than actual responsibilities. For instance, a vice president who runs a division with profit and loss responsibility in one company would very likely be seen to outrank a senior vice president who doesn't have profit and loss responsibility at another company. Okay. At the very top of organizations, relative rank becomes harder to determine by titles. At lower levels, titles tend to have much more similar responsibilities across organizations and industries than at the top. In fact, it might seem perverse, but an SVP Senior Vice President could move to a different company as a vp, take a step down, but it could actually be seen by both the losing and acquiring company as a promotion because of the scope and scale of responsibilities.

[A]

Yeah, so we have some examples of these kinds of roles, folks. So it could be senior moves that bring a VP with international experience into a company at an SVP level if they're looking to immediately grow their international reach or sales.

[B]

There are plenty of companies who only sell in one country and they don't have no idea. And they have no problem with currency fluctuations or tariffs or any of that kind of stuff. And so you don't want to try to figure that out in your own

[A]

Right, let's bring somebody from outside that's done this before.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Or an SVP running a national division could move to an EVP role to captain a national product division. Or maybe the CEO is looking to infuse an entrepreneurial spirit into a division and therefore hires a general manager from a company outside their industry to lead the division as an svp.

[B]

And again, just remember, those roles can be misleading and you'd have to know more. The titles. The titles are misleading and you have to really get into the responsibilities. And frankly, most people don't understand if the person's five levels up, they don't understand what the responsibilities are. The bottom line here, folks, is that when you see these kinds of quote, moves with promotions unquote, happening at the top of your company or others, one cannot assume that the flexibility happens at all levels. It doesn't. It just doesn't.

[A]

Yeah. All right, so let's get into the fact that you can get a promotion by going to a smaller company. The most common exception to the unlikeliness of changing companies while getting a promotion is when moving to a smaller company. And folks, there are two reasons for this. Scope or responsibilities differences and the desire of the small companies to grow.

[B]

Yeah. In the case of scope or responsibilities, for instance, a vice president at a multibillion dollar company might very well have more responsibilities than the CEO herself of a company one fourth or even half the size of the larger company. I mean, if you're responsible for North America and Europe at a $10 billion company, you might be responsible for $6 billion in sales. If you're going to a $1 billion company. Right. In a $10 billion company, Europe and the Americas might be worth 60% of your company. And yet you're going to go to a higher level position. It seems to be a promotion, when in fact you're moving to a smaller company. And so you get a promotion because you're running something bigger than the entire company itself.

[A]

Isn't. And I could be wrong, isn't that what happened with Ethan Coulson? Didn't Ethan do that when he made his.

[B]

Oh, I don't remember that.

[A]

I could be wrong, but I was sure that he moved from a larger company to a smaller company and he, he made it an increase in.

[B]

Oh, that's true. That's exactly right. And he got hired by a private

[A]

equity funded manufacturer and it's a much smaller company and. But it comes with more responsibilities because he's got a higher position.

[B]

And as we've said, titles at the top are much more relative to internal power and do not denote necessarily similarities in scope the way lower level positions do across all industries. Look, it doesn't matter where you are if you're an individual contributor or a frontline manager. Those roles are similar in scope everywhere. There are some differences, but for the most part they're the same. That's even pretty true for senior managers and directors. But again, an SVP at a large company might have two to five to ten times the responsibilities of a C suite exec at a much smaller firm.

[A]

And folks, to the uninitiated, someone moving from a big firm to a small firm might seem like a step down even with a greater title. But that is very often misleading. When an individual reaches the top of a firm, there are many less promotions to be promoted into. Remember I mentioned this earlier, the top of the pyramid narrows and there are just less positions. There are fewer positions to be had.

[B]

Yeah, and actually it's not a pure triangle. The triangle is very fat. At the bottom it gets very fat. And then at the very top it gets narrow very fast. Because at the very top it gets to one. And if the CEO has 12 directs, there are 12 people vying for one position. What's more, there are roles that are seen as much more likely to earn a promotion to one of those few available roles. An exec might be an EVP or even in a C suite position. And yes, there are, as I've mentioned, often too many C suite roles, but still have little to no chance of promotion because the only promotion left is the CEO. For many companies, though not all, it is unlikely. Not all, but it's unlikely that Chief Administrative Officer, Chief Strategy Officer, or Chief Legal Officer would ever be considered the CEO role. In fact, if you do the math, the people that are most likely to be promoted to be CEO or coo, certainly that's often a stepping stone. He or she is likely the number two Chief Financial Officer, Chief Sales Officer, or Chief Marketing Officer. As a general rule, there are cases of Chief Legal Officer. That's relatively new, but it's still relatively rare compared to coo, cfo, cmo, Chief Sales Officer, and so on. You know, if they wish to move to a higher level, a lot of those people who are in roles that wouldn't be considered for the CEO role would have to leave their present employer. And if you want to know a little bit more, something that I, when I first learned it, I thought was just so cool. I learned it like 35 years ago. There is a concept among the CEO succession process called if not you who? And it is a manager tools cast and I encourage you to listen to it. It's a great thing. We've actually referenced it a couple of times in other succession discussions and I'll

[A]

link to it at the bottom of this cast.

[B]

Yeah, we'll definitely link to it. On the other hand, an SVP in a line role could move to a COO or CEO role of a smaller firm with growth potential. Many firms might choose to make them a COO for a year or two with the promise of an excellent shot at the CEO role. Although we definitely need to mention the dangle, the cast about the dangle, we will link to that one as well at the bottom. And obviously you would offer the COO role rather than the CEO role because that would help to ensure that before they became CEO they fully understood the company's business and they would be able to build relationships so critical to the effectiveness at the very top of any organization.

[A]

Yeah, and folks, while this would technically be a promotion, they might actually have relatively similar or in some cases even less responsibilities in their new role than the role they just left. They would clearly see it as a promotion. Their title and opportunities have improved. But again, unlike most promotions, their responsibilities would be in many ways smaller.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. We've been talking now about scope and responsibilities, but in the second case, smaller companies wanted to grow. One very effective way to do that is to import someone from a much larger firm who would bring with them the systems and processes larger firms take for granted, but yet are not in place in the smaller firm. Also, the smaller firm may want the executive's experience with acquisitions, which is a specialized skill many smaller company senior executives lack. The smaller company would also probably benefit from the larger company executives broader relationships, whether it be in banking or the industry or related industries as well, particularly if they're looking to change their product or service line. Yeah.

[A]

So again, at the top of companies, promotions with moves do happen much more regularly. But that doesn't mean we should draw any broader conclusions about that happening at all levels of the organization. That's not how it works, folks. It's a lot more fluid up there. But that doesn't. Just because you know of it or you've heard of it, doesn't mean that in your role, especially if you are an individual contributor or maybe even a frontline manager to director for the first time, that this is a viable career path for you. This. This is not a strategy.

[B]

It's not a strategy. Yeah. What is that joke? Oh, hope is not a method.

[A]

Hope is not a method, right?

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. All right, let me summarize. I think we've talked a lot about this, but just in summary, generally, promotions, while changing companies, are exceptionally rare. Except for execs moving to smaller companies, it's bizarrely rare for individual contributors moving companies to become a manager, and only slightly less so in the middle of organizations. If you're wanting a promotion as a manager and you can't get it where you are for reasons outside of your control and you think you've earned it, you're probably going to have to move to a different role in a different company in a similar role to the one you have now when you do so, make sure to ask about possibilities for growth at the new company. Let's you end up in the same quagmire you started in thanks so much

[A]

for joining us folks. We hope this one helped you. Now help us help others and tell your friends. And of course, follow rate and review our podcast. And remember, five stars only.

[B]

Please See you next week, everybody. Sam.