Mike Auzenne (3:49)

I get a sense of accomplishment from my work.

Mark Horstman (3:52)

Yeah. So this is actually somewhat better. Although there's, there's a lot of psychology here. There's some good data that say that employees who get to feel a sense of accomplishment feel better about themselves and are more likely to be retained. But to get a sense of accomplishment, work has got to be broken down in ways that can be measured. Right. And there are many times we've seen work be poorly measured by managers because they haven't been taught how to do so. We've got a lot more cast to deliver, folks, and we'll visit. We've talked about it a good bit already, but we'll continue to talk about measuring. Managers are also afraid to measure because they've gotten resistance when they've tried. But if you position measurement as a way to get to a sense of accomplishment as opposed to a chance to discipline somebody for not achieving a goal that can have benefits with your people. And let's be honest, the entire company is measured. Right? Your entire company is measured. How is it measured? By revenue, by the marketplace. Salaries are measured, time is measured, costs are measured. Virtually everything is measured in high performing organizations, not because they want to find fault, but to provide accomplishments and reporting so that we can make adjustments if things aren't going the way we had planned. So ask and capture with the question, how can we help you get more of a sense of accomplishment from what you do. Now I will tell you the first time I ever sat in on this question. It wasn't an engagement survey, but it was related to that. It was a employee questionnaire, annual survey or twice annual survey or something. The first person says, you could pay me more. And I think that's fair. But that's one of those ones that goes more to compensation than it does to satisfaction. By the way, there are plenty of people who are paid a lot who aren't satisfied. Don't mistakenly just generally link the two naturally, because it's not necessarily so. Pay tends to be a hygiene factor. Accomplishment is not. Managers can again, you can also create relationships with internal and external customers and ask for input and feedback about your team's work and find out what is useful and what isn't. And that can help you in terms of figuring out effectiveness, efficiency and also measurements that'll work. Why not? If you, if your team does something that specifically benefits somebody else, why wouldn't you ask them how they want it? What are the things that are important to them? So you can measure that.

Mike Auzenne (6:22)

Yeah, I know clearly whether I am making progress toward my goals.

Mark Horstman (6:28)

Yeah. So I think it's fair to say. Communications about progress for, for our people would likely come from us, the direct managers. And here's where most managers miss it. And from systems we've created to measure work and its progress. Project planning, public visual reporting. Two easy ways to make this happen. And look, you managers, you don't have to create all the reporting system. Ask workers, ask your number two to plan their work and provide deadlines for deliverables and then put together a spreadsheet that everybody can look at once a week. I'm amazed at the number of managers like say, can I do that? Well, sure you can. You should have a visual reporting mechanism. And there are directs who will say, well, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to work or do you want me to report on my work? And the answer of course is somewhat drolly. Yes. Meaning you work in a company with more than one person. You have to report on your work. Reporting on work status is inherently part of the work in companies with more than one employee. It's part of the tax we for the benefit of the massive multiplication of human productivity that happens due to our human organizations and specialization. Specialization of labor. I'm sure you all have heard me say that a hundred times. It's a fundamental part of Organizational Theory 101 and it's why sociologists say the greatest achievement of humankind is large human organizations. So you can ask and capture what can we do to help show progress on your work? Now, some of the cynics on your team are going to stay quiet. They don't want any measuring, they don't want any reporting, they don't want any status. But ignore them and implement it. Because we don't manage our team for the cynics and the poor performers. Manage your team for the top performers and then encourage the people at the bottom to become top performers.

Mike Auzenne (8:19)

The work processes we have in place allow me to be as productive as possible.

Mark Horstman (8:24)

Yeah. The best part of the company in terms of its structure to make sure work processes ensure productivity is the manager of the direct. Right, that's you. Whether you're a senior director, managing directors, or you're a manager managing individual contributors doesn't matter. For the vast majority of managers, whether we realize it or not, we have enormous flexibility in designing work processes. Typically, in my experience, a manager takes over a team and there are work processes in place. We usually mistakenly believe that these processes are somehow set in stone or approved by the company or written by the founder, designed by, hires up or something like that. And so we leave those things in place. We accept them. But you don't have to do that. Those work processes that your people follow are yours to change in the vast majority of situations. I just finished a wonderful book written by a retired admiral in the navy called Turn the Ship Around. He was a nuke boat captain. He commanded a fast attack sub nuclear submarine, one of the key parts of our nation's defense. Nuke boat professionals are a cut above, in my experience, even above army soldiers, even though I've given the navy plenty of hard time over the last 20 years. And he decided that the ship he took over, which was not doing well, hadn't done well for a long time, that he shouldn't keep doing the same thing. And so he started changing the rules. Now, he had to ask for permissions many times, but he asked for permission and then he'd start changing it. And then people come and inspect and discover they was getting better results. And they said, yeah, go ahead, do it if it makes for better results, right, let's do it. But in the nuke boat world, that was not to be done. It was very technical. It was very precise. You had to do it exactly the right way. It made the captain a God. And that's not effective in the kind of environment that they perform in. So you can change Things you really can. If a nuke book captain can say, no, I'm not going to follow this regulation, then you can too. Even in production or manufacturing organizations, you have the ability to seek out more efficient and effective ways to get work done. And those kinds of changes are not some weird political third rail. Okay? You can't touch it like Social Security in the United States. That's expected of you to look at it and to think, we can do this better, we can do it differently. Who else would have that responsibility? Oh, you could say the process engineering people and yeah, that's fair, but wouldn't it be you? You're the one supervising people on the line. Why wouldn't it be you? It would be you. Now, sure, sometimes there are systems that you and your people have to interact with that you don't have control over. Safety comes to mind. Reporting to higher levels, rules for ordering parts, budgeting, stuff like that. But even those areas are negotiable and changeable. Work with your team to simplify things. We've told this story many times. Mike, feel free to jump in. Mike took over a large organization at Bell Atlantic, as I recall, and he discovered boxes in his office in the corner of his very large office of green bar reports. Green bar reports are those reports that are run through a printer that are fed with wheels that have cams on them that drive it by.

Mike Auzenne (11:43)

Probably most of us now have no.

Mark Horstman (11:45)

No idea we're talking about, but you've probably seen them in pictures and so on with a green bar and then a white bar and then a green bar and a white bar. These reports were required. And he had people in his organization that did nothing but produce them. Then he discovered, asking around that none of the recipients who the report went to read them and he killed them and nobody noticed. Folks, that's your job as a manager, to kill stuff that's inefficient.

Mike Auzenne (12:14)

Yes. And when you say kill them, it's more than just not producing the report. It was literally reassigning the four people that were responsible for this function somewhere else.

Mark Horstman (12:24)

And we've had this question. I've told this story a hundred times, 200, 500 times in the last 20 years. And people have always said, when I used to be presenting conferences, I don't do that anymore. I'm retired. I retired now, but we're still recording podcasts. And I would tell the story and they say, well, why didn't those people come forward and say, nobody's reading the report. And I said, I say two things One, they didn't know the people that were getting the report. They didn't know whether they're reading or not. And the person who reads the report wouldn't necessarily have to communicate with the person who prepared the report, because probably the report ostensibly came from Mike, even though there were people in his organization that did so that's part of it. The second part is, why would they say to somebody who could lay them off, we've discovered that our report is not being read. Look, if there's no trust, and Mike was relatively new at the time in the organization, if there's no trust, why would you cut off your own head? It take a pretty impressive person to do that, and I don't think we should assume people will do that. They got to feed their families. So building a trusting organization means somebody would come to you and say, hey, you know what? You should find something else for us to do. I really want something else to do, but I'm not going to lie and say I think this report is worth anything because nobody reads it. So work with your team on their work processes. If you get a low score, ask them, what can we do to make our processes work for you? And you might just get things they don't want to do. That's fine. You don't need to mop out entirely new systems just yet. Kill the things you can be willing to say, oh, that was wrong. We got to go back. Maybe you don't realize that somebody actually does read the report. Work with your peers to determine what the risks there are, compromise to gain some acceptance. And whatever you do, engage in that process with your team. Don't make it your personal project that you really want to stroke and pet and feel good about. Work with your team on it.

Mark Horstman (14:24)

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Mike Auzenne (15:15)

Okay, next one. Our tools and technology allow me to.

Mark Horstman (15:18)

Do my job well so ask and capture. What tools or tech do you want or need to help you get your work done? Keep in mind, we may be talking about budget here. Look, get your team to help you make the case for the savings that will come out of spending. You know, this is an important concept to remember outside of engagement surveys as well. If people want new equipment, and they should, and they will, teach them how it gets purchased, don't just say, I'll see what I can do. If you say, I'll see what I can do, you're saddled with the failure to get it. And you've got to do all the admin and so on when there are all kinds of factors that could preclude people levels above you from getting the same equipment, capital spending, software, Right. Even though nobody would have gotten this approved, you're the one that ends up holding the bag. Tell them the way new equipment or software or capital gets spent or allocated. Tell them that it's shown to be an effective investment. Software may require it or cyber approval. A piece of capital equipment will have a capital request process. I bet you when you became a manager you didn't know what that process was and you wish in hindsight that you had known. So make sure your people don't suffer that. Get your number one, your number two, or your number three. Who's the number two to your number two? Tell them, learn about it. I got a manual here, I know a guy, she's great over in capital budgeting. Reach out to them, find out what we need to do and they're going to say, yeah, by the way, there's this process, but nobody follows it. Here's what you should do, right? Have them work the request process themselves. By the way, if you may discover that when you ask them to do the work to get the thing they want, you'll discover that, well, you don't really have to. They're not all that important. Yeah, but they need to learn the processes and maybe you do too.

Mike Auzenne (17:12)

And sometimes it's very surprising how many resources you can bring to bear on your organization when you know the process. And it's not so hard to get approval to purchase that software.

Mark Horstman (17:23)

Whatever. Well, I'm, I'm amazed at the number of managers whose eyes light up. When I used to present, when they would say, I would say, well, look, just send a note to your peers, hey, has anybody done this before? And they're like, oh, okay, I guess I could do that. Now I think some of them knowing it was me, and I might can vouch for this. I was famous for not really caring what other people thought of me. I had good relationships with people, but I was not afraid. And that has served me well my whole career. But I realize now that people are surprised when I say that because they don't want to admit they don't know how to do something and I didn't care. I'd be like, I don't know how to do that, and people will laugh at me.

Mike Auzenne (18:06)

We've had million conversations where said, I do. I mean, I really don't know how to do this. He goes like, well, I don't either, but I know somebody who does.

Mark Horstman (18:15)

Call somebody. Yeah, he'll know, right? Yeah.

Mike Auzenne (18:17)

Well, John knows. Yeah, John knows a lot. Next one. I look forward to coming to work every day. That's a silly question in my mind.

Mark Horstman (18:28)

But it seems to be well liked on engagement surveys. Go figure. How is the company or any manager going to fix this? There are some employees, if you gave them everything on their list of desires that would make them look forward to coming to work. They just come up with a longer list. It's like that movie Air Force One, I think, with Harrison Ford, where at the end he says, get off my plane. And there's a part where they're negotiating. I think it's the same movie, maybe not where they're negotiating. And I think Glenn Close is the vice president and she's a mom, and there's somebody else in the Pentagon or in the Situation Room or on radios and so on. And they were like, if you give a mouse a cookie. Right. Famous story, he'll want it. You know, if you give him a mouse cookie, he'll want some milk. And they don't want to come into the house.

Mike Auzenne (19:14)

Yeah. I think you combine, like, five different movies. Glenn Close, is that right? Mouse cookie.

Mark Horstman (19:21)

Really? You think so? Yeah. So you're calling me out and you're suggesting that my pop culture reference.

Mike Auzenne (19:26)

Yeah, I'm just.

Mark Horstman (19:27)

Just saying that that movie, it's not an executive, it's not in Air Force One, and it's not Harrison Ford, and it's not Glenn Close. I could. You're right. I could have a trifecta of badness there.

Mike Auzenne (19:39)

But it worked for the situation.

Mark Horstman (19:41)

It might be Glenn Close in another movie with the president on Air Force One, and.

Mike Auzenne (19:45)

Yeah, I think something like that. But now if you asked me to put all those things together and tell you where they happened, I. I couldn't tell you.

Mark Horstman (19:52)

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Easy to be a critic, isn't it? Yeah, sure.

Mike Auzenne (19:55)

It's very easy.

Mark Horstman (19:56)

It's.

Mike Auzenne (19:56)

It's the whole point. I look forward to coming to work every day.

Mark Horstman (19:59)

Love you, brother. Love you, brother.

Mike Auzenne (20:01)

And folks, I love coming to work every day.

Mark Horstman (20:03)

Yeah, we are.

Mike Auzenne (20:05)

Because I get to have these conversations.

Mark Horstman (20:06)

Yeah.

Mike Auzenne (20:10)

Bad movie references.

Mark Horstman (20:11)

Yeah. Okay, getting back to work before Mike took us on this incredible, dangerous. Look, folks, if you get a low score, ask and capture what would help you look forward to coming to work or what keeps you from looking forward to coming to work?

Mike Auzenne (20:26)

These stupid conversations.

Mark Horstman (20:27)

Yes.

Mike Auzenne (20:28)

Okay, next one. I feel involved in decisions that affect my work.

Mark Horstman (20:33)

Yeah. This is another one of those core questions that are part of engagement survey lore. Their data say that employees who feel involved are more easily retained and perform better. We think at Manager Tools, it's far more likely that high performing employees feel more involved. And this question and the assumptions around it basically puts the cart before the horse. Hey, we just had a reference to a horse and a mouse in the same podcast. We disagree, as we've said before repeatedly about engagement surveys and the assumptions that drive them. But regardless, we've said this before in this cast series of casts as well. Employees feelings are a dangerous ground for managers and organizations. There are plenty of inexperienced professionals out there or just inexperienced people who aren't yet professional because they still think their feelings are relevant to the organization. Their feelings are relevant to their boss and individual, but they're not relevant to the organization. That's not how organizations are run. And if you're going to say, well, that makes all organizations bad, then please put down your cell phone because an organization made it and don't use one ever again, because heaven forbid you have something to do with organizations. We can go back to the dark ages with apprenticeships and internships, but there are young people that haven't learned how professionals feel about things. And there are those whose feelings will not change no matter what you do for them. Years ago, I used to ask job applicants whether they were optimistic or not. I found that to be a real indicator and everybody said yes, I knew they would. But of course, some were just giving good interview answers. The point of the question was to have a case to make once someone proved that they weren't optimistic by behaving pessimistically on the job. I don't know why more people don't do this. Like Mike. I guess we need a podcast and how to interview about. Certain questions are designed to create markers that if in fact they don't do it, you say, look, I hired you based on these assumptions and these answers. You gave to these questions and you're not showing me that in behavior. So we're not going to. We're going to part ways before you get too thoroughly ensconced here. And I always thought, if they're a pessimist, let's let them go to work at a competitor. So you could ask what can I do to help you feel more involved in decisions that affect you? And it took me a long time to type the word feel there. Now look, a low score. Here is a cause for concern because of the popularity of the question. Effective managers over communicate about their decisions. Horseman's law. And regularly ask for input. But most managers are terrible at communication. Terrible, terrible, terrible. You probably are terrible at it if you think email is the best way to communicate. We've mentioned it before. We'll mention again. A weekly staff meeting would be a great way to start ameliorating problems in this area. Also, a proactive communications plan would address this directly and we have guidance on that. That is so good. It is now in our hall of fame.

Mike Auzenne (23:40)

This is one of those questions. I don't like the question around how they feel. So even though feelings don't really matter, it is an indicator of other things that are more behavioral based.

Mark Horstman (23:53)

Yeah. And I would also say I'm doing a disservice to one on ones. If you want to try to get a sense of how your directs feel, not that you'll ever truly know. Start having one on ones that'll solve that problem. Yeah.

Mike Auzenne (24:06)

And in that case you'll know why they feel how they feel. Right. Which is the useful part of it.

Mark Horstman (24:12)

Yeah. But just don't think that we're hinting at the idea that you should become a psychologist because we have a podcast called you are not a psychologist. Your job is not to swim stream and understand why your people do things and change their thinking and feelings so they will do things differently. That is not how man is recipe for disaster. Yeah, it doesn't work.

Mike Auzenne (24:32)

All right, the next one. The technology, tools and resources I have access to allow me to be as productive as possible.

Mark Horstman (24:39)

Yeah. So I think you probably figured out this question has been asked multiple ways and so you probably don't need to spend too much time on it. It's always good to ask and capture though, to help you prepare your engagement, survey response documentation to your boss. And if you haven't figured it out yet, there's some politics here in your response to your boss and potentially up the chain of command. There's an awful lot here we hope. Again, we said it before, you only have 30 questions and not 140 like this one. But there's a difference between the process we're taking you through and what you might actually do. If you follow this process, you will get an A. Excellent. From your boss and everybody up the chain of command for your response to your engagement survey. So much so that they'll probably see anything you do coming out of this as bathed in golden light. You'll get credit for it, even if it doesn't really do much good. So again, ask and capture. What tech, tools and resources do you not have that would help you be productive?

Mike Auzenne (25:40)

So let's stop here and we'll continue on next time.

Mark Horstman (25:44)

Thanks, everyone.

Mike Auzenne (25:45)

We'll see you next time.

Mark Horstman (25:51)

Sam.