A (3:11)

That's exactly it. And folks, further, interviewers who scored in the Bottom third of the behaviors. So that is interviewers not smiling, not appreciating, not thanking again, not being rude, but just not associated with these positive behaviors, said no at a much higher rate, roughly 45% than those that did engage in those positive behaviors.

B (3:38)

Yeah.

A (3:39)

What's more, candidates whom they said yes to had roughly 2/3 the offer acceptance rate as those in the positive interviewer third. And anecdotally, those in the bottom third in positive behaviors also had a much higher rate of failing to be able to describe why their candidates were turned down, which also simultaneously was being studied separately to increase screening effectiveness. But yeah, their, their dour behaviors reflected on their assessment of the candidates behaviors.

B (4:24)

Yeah. I'll tell you something about this. I am often asked to interview people and when we get together, it's happened, oh, I don't know, let's say four or five times in the last four or five months where I've interviewed one or two candidates for a client and then I tell them, I said, look, I'm not going to do this unless there's some form of interview results capture process. And they said, no, no, we're following your guidance. Interview results capture meeting. So I go into the meeting and I'm interviewing alongside seasoned professionals, you know, who have hundreds if not thousands of interviews under their belt. And I hear comments like, yeah, I didn't like him. Yeah, just didn't light my fire. And so I actually mistakenly, because I'm, I'm just an interviewer, I'm not the leader of the, the meeting, I said, well, why? I don't know. I said, what did he do? What did he say? And of course they don't have notes or if they do, they didn't write down what the candidate said. And consequently they, I mean, it's still that way today and it's an enormous competitive advantage if you can do it right, and you should.

A (5:34)

Yeah, agreed.

B (5:36)

Now here's where it gets interesting. We also assessed all candidates after their interviews. We asked the candidates to do an assessment to determine their experience with the interviewers. Some actually said no, which is interesting because I actually think some of the ones that said no had poor interviews. So the assumption is the study's parameters and design in this step skewed the data away from those people. I would guess. Now it's not significant. It's hard to measure, but it's survey theory.

A (6:14)

I don't think those are the right words. But I mean, if I had a great experience versus a negative experience determines whether or not I want to fill out the survey. In this case, what you're saying is those candidates didn't want to represent the company negatively and thus opted out of participating in this piece?

B (6:32)

Yes. At a somewhat higher rate than everybody did.

A (6:35)

Yes, exactly.

B (6:36)

Yeah.

A (6:36)

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it makes sense.

B (6:38)

Okay. Now, we assured them that this was confidential. We had them, we showed them a non disclosure agreement. We had them fill out a form with no referential information on it. They filled out a blank form asking about the behaviors they experienced. And there was a blind connection through a member of our staff who kept a connection number between the interviewee and the interviewer so that we could connect their comments to whether that person was a positive interviewer, ask behavioral questions, all those kind of things. Okay. Scores were generally higher than our review and again, we believe this was due to them not knowing whether this information was truly confidential. But it didn't matter because the positive and negatively behaved interviewers data still showed a statistically significant dispersion matching what our video review showed. Tellingly, likelihood of accepting an offer was statistically notably less for those who were interviewed by a negatively behaved interviewer. Now, for the record, there was not a statistically significant difference in that score between positively behaved and neutrally behaved. So you could be neutral and you would still be okay. It was the negative behavior that caused that statistically significant reduction. So I'm not saying that the top third did better than the middle third and the middle third did better than the bottom third. I'm saying in this case, the top. The data show the top two third thirds did better than the bottom third in terms of positive versus negative behaviors.

A (8:25)

So, folks, now that we've gone over all the data, I think you can probably agree that it's pretty clear, all things being equal, which they never are, positive interview behaviors can make you a more effective interviewer than an individual who has the same basic knowledge as you and interviews for same positions with similar candidates. So if, having heard all of this, if you're still a negative interviewer, you're not just being yourself anymore. You are now indulging in personal preference, your personality or behavioral style over what are known behaviors that will make the process and your company's performance more effective, you're indulging in negative behaviors at this point is an unprofessional decision. And it's borderline on juvenile. You know, it doesn't work. The data suggests it doesn't work.

B (9:24)

I hesitated to write juvenile there, but the reason I did is because none of these things that we're going to Talk about thanking, giving appreciation, saying thank you, voicing appreciation, smiling, complimenting behaviors. These are not insurmountable odds.

A (9:39)

Oh no, they're not above and beyond. It's not like you're just like layering on the love. It's not at all like that. It's just basic human decency and kindness.

B (9:50)

And it's available to everybody.

A (9:52)

Yeah, yeah.

B (9:52)

If it's not, you got no business being in a collaborative organization.

A (9:56)

Absolutely.

B (9:56)

Which is to say any human organization. You could, you could have a company of one. That's fine. Now look, think further on this. If you're a manager, listening to this. As a manager, you're part of the leadership of the organization. You speak for the chief executive. That's what your role power is. Therefore, you must speak for the chief executive and the company in a way that brings credit to your organization and draws people to your organization. Failing to do so is failing in your duty as a leader to the organization, to the company. You're abrogating your duties. If you choose to either adopt a dour, sour, glum, sullen, stone faced interview without smiling or thanking or complimenting and so on, or you're saying, oh, that's just my style. But your style doesn't carry any water. We know it's effective and you're. Now you do, you'd be choosing not to do it.

A (10:58)

And folks, this is only one example in the many knowing doing gap examples that exist in organizations. I mean a lot of employees know what to do, but they choose not to do it. A lot of managers know what to do. I mean we've given you the tools one on ones feedback, coaching, delegation, and you're still not doing it. And it leads to underperformance and claims of an individual's authentic self are overruled by our, in this case obligation to suboptimize ourself for the benefit of the organization. Whether we know it or not. That's, that's the truth of it. To Mark's point a moment earlier, if you don't want to suboptimize yourself to this other organization, start your own.

B (11:45)

And definitely, even before you start your own, don't interview for them. Yeah, we've said it a hundred times in 50, 100, 200 different podcasts. Interviewing is the most strategic, tactical thing that a manager does. You are determining one of the future potential leaders of your organization and that has 20 to 30 year potential impacts. Your decision to use Excel versus Google Sheets on a project is not ever going to be strategic, but whom you Hire is from the day you interview them and they say yes or no. Look, let's say something else. Maybe the most important thing of all. Candidates who are treated positively, who score that they were treated positively, are almost twice as likely to have a good impression of the hiring company whether or not they receive an offer. Almost twice as likely. And think about that. That means more people telling your good reputation to others, increasing the number of candidates you get in the future. Or maybe you'll have said no to them, but you'll have treated them professionally, respectfully, kindly, and they'll come back in a year or two with more relevant experience and want to interview again even after they were told no. Why? Because they were treated with positive professional behavior. Which is not sour, dour, sullen, stone faced, judgmental, neutral, quote neutral, unquote stuff. So the question now is, how can we project a positive impression of our organization and increase the outcomes of our interviewing process through our interviewing behavior?

A (13:37)

All right, that takes us now into some of the behavioral aspects that you, you all can engage in.

B (13:43)

And they're easy.

A (13:44)

Yeah, yeah. And these are the. Going back to our conversation earlier, these are the things that make you a positive interviewer. Positive interviewer category versus the negative interviewer category. And we're going to start with smile, folks. Smiling was found to be the single most determinative behavior interviewers can use to increase their interview outcomes and process outcomes. You'll get more yeses and more offer acceptances when you smile before, during, and after the interview.

B (14:17)

Now look, there are some of you listening right now and say, well, that can't be. That must mean that when I smile, I'm going to say yes more often. Well, yes, that's what we're saying. And you're saying, well, that's not good because maybe my smiling is affecting my objectivity, my rationality, my Vulcan sense of what is true and right. No, you're missing the point. You will get better behavior from your interviewees when you smile. They will not be on their heels. They will not start sweating mentally. They will not go through into doom loops when they make a mistake, start.

A (14:55)

Stuttering and yeah, all the good thoughts dissipate from their brains. They have nothing left in their head.

B (15:01)

Exactly. And good people are going to fail. And, and you're going to think, maybe I found a weakness. No, you were just a jerk. And they're going to justify the no by saying, I didn't like that guy anyway, which is truly sour grapes. But it's your fault. And you don't ever find out how good that person can be. So look, when you first greet the candidate, smile. And as I like to remind somebody, it's not a quarter of a second smile. You have to show your teeth. I tell people the way I judge really good smiles is whether or not the eyebrows go up. Okay? Because when your eyebrows go up, your eyes get bigger. And that actually shows you as vulnerable. And that's actually a good thing in the first minute or two of the interview because, in fact, you're not that vulnerable. But your interviewee would like you to be slightly less invulnerable in the process. So smile when you first greet somebody. Represent your company as a friendly, positive, cultured place to work. A non smiling interviewer is sending a message of a less friendly behavioral culture. We can't. You can't argue with that. And everybody knows first impressions matter. If you can't smile several times in an interview, you have no business interviewing, full stop. You're hurting your company's chances of making good hires.

A (16:32)

Now, folks, we've mentioned this a couple of times tangentially, but we have an entire book called the Effective Hiring Manager. We've got a series of podcasts, we've got conferences, virtual and in person, all about effective hiring. And we have a recommendation in our hiring manager guidance that the interviewer essentially begin illicit. Engage in small talk for like one to two minutes right at the start. I mean, just to take the edge off, just to show some of that warmth. Right. Going directly from a smileless handshake into a series of questions is off putting. If you were ever going to have an interaction with any other human being in the world, you wouldn't immediately dive into asking that person questions. Treat this person like a person, because they are and so are you. And do what any engaged, interested human being does when they make small talk with another person and smile.

B (17:34)

Yeah, you smile and you say, hey, are you. Look, if you're the first interviewer, say you're looking forward to today. I hope you are. We've got a bunch of people lined up. We're really excited to see you. Welcome in. I'm Mark. Right. I think when you guys are listening to me right now, you can tell I'm smiling. You'll def. You definitely be able to tell I'm smiling. If we were in person right now.

A (17:54)

We should have done this on YouTube. We should have videoed this.

B (17:56)

They could see your smile. We should have. Okay, now, during the interview, we've already talked about at the start, right when you meet them, and also during Your small talk, chit chat during the interview. Smile when you ask questions. When you hear things you like. Smile when the candidates makes comments that are self deprecating or funny. Smile. Look, if they're really self deprecated in a clever way, a sharp way, you should laugh. I gotta tell you, when a candidate does that, and I don't think it's a, I don't get an impression of insincerity, but they freely admit like, like in my tell me about yourself answer. I had three goals in high school and I have to say I only achieved two of them. I was never a varsity team captain and I say I had three goals to do this, this, this and this. And I, unfortunately for me, only achieved two of them. I defy you to listen to that in audio only and not hear me smiling. When I said yeah, I didn't, I didn't actually get the third one. Okay, I'm okay with that. I am okay with being self deprecating. It is a, in my opinion, a sign when it's done sincerely. And that's a judgment call in and of at the time. But in my opinion it's a sign of confidence. Most people in interviews are desperately afraid that you're going to find out what their weaknesses are. That's why there are so many bad answers to, you know, what is your weakness? They say, well, actually my weakness is also my greatest strength. I'm so smart that other people don't like me. I had that happen to me when I was interviewing. I want to say it was Montana, Wyoming, something like that. Somebody said that to me and I sort of chuckled and says, I don't think that's why they don't like you. Oh, burn. Yeah, I think he knew by then the interview was already over. If I'm asking questions like weakness, the interview's already over. Look, candidates, when they're nervous, okay, tell them it's okay while smiling. Give them a moment if they pause. By the way, you've been interviewed, you know that when you get asked a question, you think for a moment. There are two types of questions in interviews. There, there are those who allow immediate responses like what was your gpa? Or where are you living right now? Or what's your phone number? Right? Those are pretty easy. But then there are reflective questions which require you to think. Like give me an example of an accomplishment where you did X. It's okay to think, but when you're thinking, you're thinking you're taking a minute when in fact it's only 5 seconds I actually used to do when I was training people on how to be interviewed. I would do a thing, say, okay, I'm going to ask you all a question as if I'm interviewing you all at the same time. Close your eyes and start thinking of the answer and keep thinking of your answer. Be ready to answer because I'm going to pick on one of you to answer. But when we get to seven seconds, I want you to raise your hand indicating, you know, seven seconds have passed. Everybody raised their hand at four seconds. They were, they, you know, time is flying by and it didn't help that I was asking to do things at one time.

A (21:03)

But when you're in the spot and you, there's this pressure on you and so time is flying. Yeah, totally.

B (21:09)

Yeah. So if they're nervous, tell them it's okay and smile. Candidates are going to make mistakes. In fact, we have previous guidance on that. It's called forgive first mistakes when interviewing. And if you're a licensee, you can go to this webpage and you click on the related podcasts and there's that podcast as well. You can read those show notes. If you're not a licensee, folks, you should be one. It's very inexpensive and that will give you access to all of our show notes. Smile when people, when you forgive them for their mistake. It's totally okay. Say we all make mistakes. It's fine. Happened to me too. But candidates think, and you know this, that interviews must be mistake free zones. They're not, as we all know, having made a mistake. I don't think I ever had a perfect interview. I did good interviewing, but I had a couple interviews that didn't go well and I still got offers. So it's not an either or situation.

A (22:04)

Yeah, that's exactly it. Ever wonder why some people are harder to manage than others? Well, the MT DISC assessment helps you understand work behaviors, communication styles and motivation so you can manage people, not problems. Get clarity fast. Learn more@manager-tools.com disc we're going to move now into express. Thanks. And folks, as we have said many times, interviewers don't need to add an additional stress into the interview process. It's already inherently stressful enough. Candidates are nervous enough. Even if a candidate's well prepared and they want your role and they're going to be nervous for it. Not only will more stress decrease candidate performance, it will also give you more false negatives and it is going to decrease your true positive outcomes that result in offer acceptance.

B (23:07)

So look, what does that mean? Expressed thanks verbally, not in your head. Throughout the interview. In the first minute, you can say, thank you for coming in or thank you for arranging this interview. Go further and say, I'm excited to talk to you. If you're not excited to talk to a candidate, folks, you shouldn't be interviewing. You represent your company. What kind of interview would you conduct? Folks, if you're sitting there thinking, I'm still not buying what Mark and Sarah are slinging, how good could you be if your chief executive is watching you? I bet they'd be a lot better than most people actually are. It would make you feel like you're not in charge, that's for sure.

A (23:49)

Right. This part about say, I'm excited to talk to you. This reminds me, Mark, of the interview overview statement in our hiring guidance. The interview overview statement literally ends, oh, it says, yeah, I'm excited that you're here. Let's get started.

B (24:02)

Exactly. Yeah. Look, you represent your company. Your company has already invested time and money into this process. Other people have determined that this interview is necessary. If you're not excited about bringing on a new hire, if you can't separate that emotion from the rational thinking required to make a good decision, which would therefore somehow cause you to be intense and frowning and distance, you've got no business interviewing you really. You really don't. Mm.

A (24:30)

Exactly. Folks, when the candidate answers a question and they answer it directly, they get straight to the point, say thank you. Even if the answer isn't ideal, Even if the answer isn't good. Frankly, why wouldn't you be thankful.

B (24:44)

Yes.

A (24:44)

That they answered it quickly? The candidate is here helping you make your decision. I mean, if a candidate goes off track and you have limited time, simply interject and say, thank you so much for that. And we're getting off track. My question was this. Repeat your question. I mean, that's the polite thing, rather than letting them ramble on and wasting their time. And yours saying thank you is so much more effective than scolding them saying something like, look, you're answering the question that I didn't ask. Can you go back to it already?

B (25:20)

Yeah, exactly.

A (25:20)

I mean, both. Both of the statements are true. Really, but one is polite and professional, and the other one is just you asserting dominance. And, dude, you look like a jerk. Yeah, you're asserting dominance when both parties know you're the dominant party in this conversation just makes you look weak. It just makes you look small.

B (25:42)

It's like those people on social media. You say, do you know who I am?

A (25:45)

Yeah, exactly.

B (25:46)

Like if you have to tell people who you are, you ate all that. Sorry. And look, if they give you a good answer, say thank you. That was helpful, by the way. Even a bad answer is helpful. It's helping you add to the perception of getting to know. The purpose of an interview is find a reason to say no. And if in fact you can't find them, then you go back over and ask yourself, okay, was there a reason for yes there? Because if you look for a yes, you'll find a yes, and that will create false positives and they are hell on earth as we teach in our effective hiring manager training. Look, when the interview is over, say, hey, thanks for taking the time to talk with me. Thank you for your preparation. If you think they were prepared, pat them on the back for the preparation. Because you're going to start noticing, if you do a good bit of interviewing, you're going to start noticing that some people are prepared and some people are not. By the way, don't ding anybody for not being prepared. If you haven't studied their resume, you're not too busy to study resumes. I know CEOs who study resumes before they go in. I've seen resumes from senior vice presidents, executive vice presidents, board members with all kinds of circles and stars and underlying on them, because that's how you do it. In order to show respect for the other person's preparation, you get prepared as well. Now, if you get prepared and they haven't, then, okay, fine, you can, you can definitely use that as a criteria to say, I'm not on board with this person. That's a behavior I wasn't happy about. You could say, thank you for going through all this process with us. I know it takes a bunch of time, so thank you. You could say, hey, you know what? Thanks for being friendly and professional. Those are two things I look for. And you check those boxes, so well done. Now, look, you don't need to be sour to somebody who fails and you don't need to reserve your thanks or your smiling to those who do. Well, it is still time well spent for you. If you have decided to recommend not hiring a candidate because you were part of that process and you gave them a chance to be their best and they weren't, and that's okay. Or maybe they were their best and it wasn't good enough, that's okay, too. So thank them for their time helping you make your decision.

A (28:02)

Exactly. Okay, that takes us then into our last piece of recommendation, behavioral guidance here. That is compliment behaviors. So Folks, when you see or hear behaviors that you respect and appreciate, we recommend you compliment the candidate. If they give you a really good answer, say, that was a really sharp answer. Or I like the way you communicated that difficult situation. Very good. That was a really tough accomplishment. You handled that well. Nice work. And all of these compliments can be entirely true of a candidate, even though it's a candidate that you ultimately decide to say no to. Being kind doesn't mean that you're giving them false hope. It just means you're being nice to them. You can be nice to them even if you're not going to give them a job.

B (28:54)

Yeah. Let's go back to the start of the interview. If the candidate has a good handshake, again, right at the start of the interview, compliment them. Good handshake. Why not? If it's good, it's good. If they have a good handshake, they probably know it. And you not saying anything is you sending a message. This is all about you judging them frankly and withholding praise. By the way, somebody may be kind of in neutral and then you say, nice handshake. Well done. This is a good start. You maybe get them a little bit excited and they're a little bit more creative and their best side comes out. Aren't you going to want their best side at work, or are you secretly hoping that you could put them through their paces so well that you can reveal their worst side and then that will still be good enough for you to believe that their best will be good at work? I don't think that logic follows exactly, folks.

A (29:43)

If they're dressed appropriately, sharply professionally, say that. Say, man, you look professional today. Thank you. Nice suit. Like, whatever it is, even compliment them. If they answer a three part question with a three part answer. And folks, let me be clear. Most people don't do this. I mean, that's kind of a big deal. Compliment them. That was really well done. Three part question, three part answer. Nice work.

B (30:09)

Yeah. If they clearly have a prepared, specific answer to an important question, tell them that that was nicely done. It doesn't matter if they didn't show you the skills, traits, abilities, characteristics the job requires. If the answer to a tough question is good, compliment them for can be a good answer that maybe you still think lacks some stuff. But if it's well thought out, if it clearly seems prepared and you could tell the difference between something prepared and something's not, compliment them on their preparation and on the answer itself.

A (30:45)

All right, it's time to wrap it up. Mark and I know. Again, this is funny. This is your favorite topic. Dude, I want you to wrap it up. I want you to wrap it up. You got this. Thank you.

B (30:53)

Folks, if you want to be a great interview and you ought to, don't fall into the trap of being a dominant, sour faced, dour, sullen, stone faced, foolish, negative person. Engage in positive behaviors. Don't just think positive thoughts. We're suggesting that you keep rational and factual in your thoughts, but you can engage in positive behaviors to help the candidate be their best, smile, say thank you, compliment their behaviors when possible. You'll get better outcomes. You'll get more offer acceptances. And by the way, that's one of the reasons why hr, often in many, many, many, far too many companies insists on making offers because HR is graded on whether or not offers are accepted. Because we put all this money into the process, we put an offer together and then it's not accepted. Of course, what our guidance is, you don't want HR making your offers because if you're the hiring manager who's going to make the offer, you're going to do your best because you have more skin in the game than HR is great. No offense to hr. I get why they're measured that way. And if I were measured that way, I'd probably say, let me make your offers for you. But you're the hiring manager and you're the one should want to do it. And if you've got somebody you think you're going to make an offer to, wow. Right? Why wouldn't you want more acceptances? And look, you'll also be setting a better example of the kind of culture your company wants to have. Now, if you work in a crappy company with sour face people everywhere, go ahead and be negative. Why would you want to curse a positive person by having them come to work for you? And that was kind of a dark way to end.

A (32:38)

That was a dark way to end. That was a real burn.

B (32:40)

I love you guys. I get plenty of burns back by email, so I'm good with that.

A (32:46)

Thank you, Mark.

B (32:47)

You're welcome. Thanks, Sarah.

A (32:49)

All right, folks, thank you so much for joining us. We hope that this helped you. Now help us help others and tell all of your friends. And of course, follow rate and review our podcast and remember, five stars only. Please.