Ingredients of Engagement: How Trust, Presence, and Values Make for a Winning Combination

Summary

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Managing Your Practice | Dimensional Fund Advisors

Episode: Ingredients of Engagement: How Trust, Presence, and Values Make for a Winning Combination
Date: September 3, 2024
Host: Katherine Williams (Head of Practice Management, DFA)
Guests:

• Helen Learmonth (Director & Financial Planner, Wealth Flow, Edinburgh, Scotland)
• Matt Hall (Co-founder & CEO, Hill Investment Group, USA)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into what makes for a truly exceptional client experience in financial advisory—how the intentional integration of trust, presence, and organizational values can drive differentiated service, enhance referrals, and create lasting client partnerships. Through the perspectives of two industry leaders with distinct client bases, the discussion brings to life real-world tactics, memorable stories, and actionable strategies for improving connection and outcomes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding the Client Experience

• Katherine Williams opens by emphasizing that most advisory business growth comes from client referrals—making the client experience central to business development. Retaining clients is strong industry-wide, but the goal is further differentiation, particularly for unique or specialized client groups (00:11).

2. Meet the Advisors: Approaches & Client Niches

• Matt Hall: Hill Investment Group is a boutique, evidence-based advisory firm focusing on clients who appreciate their philosophy, like to delegate, and are enjoyable to work with (02:40).
  • “The ideal clients… have the capacity to understand our investment philosophy, they like to delegate and they’re very fun to work with.” — Matt Hall (02:58)
• Helen Learmonth: Wealth Flow serves clients with medical negligence or personal injury settlements—often people navigating wealth for the first time who need extensive education and support (03:22).
  • “Our clients… have never had money before. So it is an education for them. But it’s a much slower process… lots more nurture, lots more hand holding…” — Helen Learmonth (03:44)

3. Early Lessons: Empathy vs. Professional Presence

• Helen reflects on returning to planning after having children and encountering emotionally close scenarios (like families with disabled children). Her over-empathy was a wake-up call:
  • “The overwhelming feeling of empathy… was extremely unhelpful to the client actually. That, for me, was a real wake up call.” — Helen (05:15)
• Matt shares how early meetings were over-prepared, dominated by slides and advisor talk; the shift to listening and having team-based meetings proved more valuable (06:33).
  • “We were over-prepared, we talked too much, we had too many PowerPoint slides… We’re better listeners.” — Matt (07:13)

4. Values-Driven Practice: Mission Becomes Experience

• Katherine notes a renewed focus on mission, vision, and values. Matt describes Hill’s “Cheers and the Four Seasons” ethos: personal connection (knowing clients’ names) and “relaxed elegance” akin to high hospitality (09:10).

  • “We know you, we see you, we understand you. You won’t have to reintroduce yourself to us.” — Matt (10:29)

• This approach is ingrained in hiring, onboarding, feedback, and recognition. Values aren’t just posters—they’re daily habits reinforced and celebrated (11:31).

• Helen echoes the focus on service, shared values, and feedback. Her firm eliminates internal competition, collaborates in meetings, and conducts two-by-two feedback with clients for continuous improvement (13:24).

5. Coaching Mindset & Setting the Arena

• At Wealth Flow, every team member is a trained coach, using “setting the arena”—consciously choosing five qualities of being before client or team meetings.
  • “Before any meeting… we set the arena, calling forth five qualities—creative, empowering, generous, receptive, vulnerable. It just changes your perspective.” — Helen (15:19)
• Both guests highlight how professional preparation and presence—not just logistics—are essential:
  • “Very few people give another human being their full presence and we shouldn’t discount that value.” — Matt (19:20)

6. Building Trust: The Trust Equation

• Trust is systematically built, not accidental. Matt references the “trust equation” learned at DFA:
  Trust = (Credibility + Reliability + Intimacy) / Self-Orientation (27:21).
  • “Credibility is, do I believe you can do what you say you can do? Reliability is, do you do what you say you will do? Intimacy is, do you see me and understand me? But it can all be undermined by self-orientation.” — Matt (27:53)
• Simplicity is a virtue; avoiding jargon and meeting clients where they are is a key part of instilling trust and clarity.

7. Lifelong Relationships Over Transactions

• Advisors explicitly tell clients they’re starting lifelong relationships, not one-off transactions.
  • “We’re not transactional. I’m not going to meet you once or twice and not see you again. This is a lifelong relationship.” — Helen (31:59)
• They create resources like client-centric books and personalized onboarding to reinforce value.

8. Feedback Loops: Continuous Improvement

• Both firms actively seek and use client feedback—positive and negative—to refine experience.
  • “The right first response is always thank you… it already shows that they care about your organization.” — Matt (33:31)
• Helen points out that client misunderstandings (e.g., financial jargon) are teachable moments for advisors to clarify and improve communication (36:33).

9. The Role of “Love” and Attention to Detail

• Matt and Helen discuss how personal touches—knowing a client’s favorite team or making direct references to their lives—combat perceived indifference and create memorable connections.
  • “Attention to detail is, in my view, in some ways, love.” — Matt (39:23)

10. Organizational Intentionality & Culture

• True client experience comes from consistent training and reinforcement—beyond the founder/principal, the whole team must embody the firm’s values and presence.
  • “I pride myself in knowing every child’s name, every animal’s name… You have to train people that are emotionally intelligent for this work.” — Helen (42:45)
• Katherine: “Hire for the character, you can train for the competence” (45:00)

11. Practical Takeaways: How to Enhance Client Experience

• Matt: Use modern tools (like an AI notetaker) to assess speaking vs. listening ratios, and focus meetings on asking the right questions, not just providing answers. Leadership sometimes means guiding clients firmly, not merely answering every question (50:40).
• Helen: Develop a coaching environment at all organizational levels. Tools like “Life’s Intentions” uncover what’s meaningful to clients to guide the relationship beyond just financial planning (53:09; 54:47).
• Both: Consider the “residue” clients take with them after meetings; reverse-engineer from the desired feeling or perspective (54:03).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Client Experience:
  “Delivering an exceptional client experience is paramount to driving those referrals over time and certainly retaining clients as well.” — Katherine Williams (00:51)
• On Empathy:
  “The overwhelming feeling of empathy… was extremely unhelpful to the client actually. That, for me, was a real wake up call.” — Helen Learmonth (05:15)
• On Values Manifesto:
  “We know you, we see you, we understand you. You won’t have to reintroduce yourself to us.” — Matt Hall (10:29)
• On Coaching Preparation:
  “Before any meeting… we set the arena, calling forth five qualities—creative, empowering, generous, receptive, vulnerable. It just changes your perspective.” — Helen Learmonth (15:19)
• On Presence:
  “Very few people give another human being their full presence and we shouldn’t discount that value.” — Matt Hall (19:20)
• On Trust:
  “The trust equation is credibility plus reliability plus intimacy, all divided by self-orientation.” — Matt Hall (27:21)
• On Attention to Detail:
  “Attention to detail is, in my view, in some ways, love.” — Matt Hall (39:23)
• On Lasting Impact:
  “What’s the residue you want people thinking about in the parking lot?” — Matt Hall (54:03)
• On Hiring Values:
  “Hire for the character, you can train for the competence.” — Katherine Williams (45:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:11] — Opening theme: Growth driven by referrals and client experience
• [02:40] — Matt Hall introduces Hill Investment Group
• [03:22] — Helen Learmonth introduces Wealth Flow’s unique client base
• [05:00] — First client meeting stories; lessons on empathy and preparation
• [09:10] — Mission, vision & values; “Cheers and Four Seasons” at Hill Investment
• [13:24] — Collaboration & feedback at Wealth Flow
• [15:19] — “Setting the arena” and the coaching mindset
• [19:20] — Importance of presence & undivided attention
• [23:38] — Building trust & simplifying the client experience
• [27:21] — The trust equation explained
• [31:59] — Emphasis on lifelong rather than transactional relationships
• [33:08] — Using feedback (positive/negative) for continuous improvement
• [39:01] — Concepts of “love” and detail as antidotes to indifference
• [42:45] — Training the next generation and extending culture through the organization
• [50:40] — Practical takeaways: Use of technology, leadership vs. answer-providing, coaching
• [54:03] — Parking lot “residue” test and backward design of experiences

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Trust Equation (Charles H. Green)
• Radical Candor (Kim Scott)
• Unreasonable Hospitality (Will Guidara)
• Life’s Intentions exercise (Coaching tool)
• Two-by-two feedback (Craig Wortman)

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Conclusion

The conversation covered actionable strategies to elevate the client experience—from mission-driven culture and feedback loops, to deep coaching, presence, and hospitality. For both boutique and niche firms, the secret sauce is not found on a checklist but in intentional, whole-firm commitment to seeing, hearing, and authentically connecting with clients.

Final Takeaway:
Whether your advisory practice is established or still growing, lasting success hinges on trust, presence, and values brought to life at every touchpoint. Ask: What do you want your clients to feel as they leave your care? From that, design everything else.

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For further details about Dimensional Fund Advisors or to connect with the guests, visit dimensional.com.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hi, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. My name is Katherine Williams. I am head of Practice management here at Dimensional Fund Advisors. My team is focused around gathering insights from two major studies that we run and helping advisors ultimately take those insights and see themselves in that data. More importantly, think about how they want to improve and run their businesses. And so, with that in mind, we're going to talk today about the importance of an exceptional client experience and how you can use that to ultimately grow your business. We know from both our Global Advisor study and our Global Investor study that you as an advisor, are growing your business predominantly through client referrals. Certainly other channels of growth, including COIs, can kick in, but this is a very important channel for all of you. And so, first and foremost, delivering an exceptional client experience is paramount to driving those referrals over time and certainly retaining clients as well. With that, you're all doing a pretty good job about retaining your clients. So how do you move the margins on that? How do you get very differentiated in what you might be thinking about? And how can you do that with very specific kinds of clients that have very unique needs and aspirations with what they want to accomplish in their lives? So that's really what we're going to unpack today and spend our time talking about. And I could not be more happy to have with me today two incredible advisors, two incredible business owners. They think about this. They live it. It's in their DNA. You spend five minutes with either Helen or Matt and you know that this is absolutely where they're coming from when they think about their business. So, really excited for our conversation today, we've got Helen Learmonth, who is the director and financial planner of Wealth Flow, based in Edinburgh, Scotland. And we've got Matt hall, co founder and CEO of Hill Investment Group, based in the heartland of the United States. Right. Right in the middle, you've got a couple of offices. So with that, Helen, it's great to have you with us today.

[A]

What a delight to. To come across the water and speak with you both.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. And Matt, good to see you as well.

[C]

Yeah, Katherine, good to see you. And thank you for doing this. It's another generous thing that I think Dimensional does to help us all improve.

[B]

Then, Matt, I'd love to start with asking each of you to give our listeners just a little bit of an understanding of what your business looks like today, the kind of clients that you are uber focused around, and then we'll kind of go from there. Matt, would you like to start?

[C]

Sure. Hill Investment Group is aiming to be considered one of the better or best boutique evidence based investment advisory firms in the country. We have about a billion dollars under management. We have three physical offices. We have a staff of 15 clients in 34 states. And I would say the ideal clients we work with have the capacity to understand our investment philosophy. They like to delegate and they're very fun to work with.

[B]

That delegating factor and having fun are two very important things. We would agree very much so. Helen, tell us a little bit about Wealth Row, as I mentioned, based in Edinburgh and very much focused on a couple of unique clients.

[A]

Yeah, that's right, Catherine. So we focus on the client banks that are people that have had medical negligence or personal injury settlements. Quite a niche area. And we tend to just focus on those types of clients and offer quite a different service. I think sometimes when I hear you mentioning folk understanding the investment philosophy, our clients probably try not to have to get involved in that because these people are very kind of normal people that have come from normal backgrounds and have never had money before. So it is an education for them. But it's a much better, a much slower process to get the client to understand fully why we're trying to beat inflation over the long term. So lots more nurture, lots more hand holding, lots more support on the way.

[B]

And we're going to talk today about what does that look like in a very tactical and practical way. But of course as well, how do you want clients to ultimately feel when they're engaging with you? But before that, if I could just ask each of you, I'm going to step just a slight, take a slight step back as both of you have now been a part of this industry for a while. You are leading organizations and even the next up and coming set of talent in each of your businesses. So I'd love to ask what do you remember about that very first client meeting that you did on your own? What did that feel like as an advisor? Because I know I'm imagining that informed a lot of what we're going to talk about here today. Helen, do you remember that? Do you look back on that time?

[A]

I can remember, but I think what I'm going to do is fast forward slightly. Believe it or not, I had a career before wealth flow or a past. But I think the important thing here is to speak about how I felt when I first met one of the medical negligence personal injury settlements as opposed to when I worked for other firms. And I think it's the main thing for me that sticks in my mind was the overwhelming feeling of empathy, which was extremely unhelpful to the client actually. And that for me was a real wake up call that if I come in to that meeting feeling over empathetic and making my concerns of their situation be kind of pushed onto them, that was of no benefit to them at all. So straight away, I think when I actually took a break to come back into the profession after having kids, I realized that actually some of the clients that I was dealing with were families that had gone on and maybe had their third child or fourth child and they'd been starved of oxygen at birth and was living with cerebral palsy, which felt very close to my heart. And so therefore, quite quickly I realized that I had to learn some tools and techniques that I'm sure were going to come onto Catherine. That made me a better planner. So yeah, that was my first learning, going, going back into the profession. Like I say, after a bit of a break.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Matt, what do you think of when I asked that, When I asked you about kind of those first meetings that you truly conducting on your own, what did that feel like?

[C]

Yeah, I love this question. I had to think about this a little bit because I've done many discovery meetings. If we think about the client experience, a lot of the first interactions are pre discovery or what many of us would call discovery meetings. I've done many of those solo, but most client review meetings, I would say have been done with one other person. This question made me reflect on I am a team person. Most great things I've accomplished in my career or in my life have been with another person. And very few of the client review meetings have less than two people even now to this day. But to really answer, I think the question behind the question is as I think about those early meetings, we were over prepared, we talked too much, we had too many PowerPoint slides. So if you jump ahead, what's different, we have fewer PowerPoint slides or no PowerPoint slides, we give less presentations and we're better listeners. And I think, you know, the big thing that I've realized is the best teams, the best partnerships that affect the client experience have shared values and complimentary skills. Shared values, meaning we're trying to do basically the same kind of work. We're acting in the service of others and yet we have complimentary skills. We're different, you know, and we're not trying to change one another. And so my best meeting, even in the earliest days when we were over prepared, had too many PowerPoint slides, too much information on each Slide and we talked too much. Even those, I think, were highly effective because you had a team or a connection between two people, a partnership, where, you know, sort of our opposite talents were serving the client and which is often for us, a couple in a really effective way.

[B]

I want to go a little bit deeper on something you said, because I was actually just recently actually corresponding with Michael Kitces about this and that. We've seen a resurgence, a renewed focus, if you will, around this idea of mission, vision and values, particularly that values piece. And not just in firms that are two or three or four years old, but firms that are 15, 20, 25 years old now, if not older, for lots of different reasons. And so I'd love to hear a little bit about, you know, how did the mission and the vision and the value system of Hill Investment Group? How did that influence the kinds of clients you wanted to work with? Or was it these are the kinds of clients we want to work with? So here's how our values are going to show up for that. Can you talk a little bit about that evolution?

[C]

Yeah, sure. There's a lot to unpack potentially here. But if I zero in on the. One of the values that my co founder and I baked into our firm from the very beginning, we called it Cheers and the Four Seasons, if you remember the show, the TV show Cheers.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

What do they say in the theme song of Cheers, you want to call.

[B]

It everybody knows your name.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Which I think gets to the heart of one of the unique things that Helen and I, I think, both bring to our clients and the client experience, which is it's personal. You know, what is that about? It's I walk into a space and people know who I am and they know my drink. I don't have to say it. I don't have to explain myself or introduce myself. They know me. And this always makes me reflect on. Do you remember the movie Jerry Maguire where he's leaving his sports agency and he says, what deeper relationship. Fewer clients and deeper relationships.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's the advantage that we have in the independent RIA space and particularly if you have a boutique firm and where you value these things. So to us, Cheers the Cheers part meant, we know you, we see you, we understand you. You won't have to reintroduce yourself to us.

[B]

I like it.

[C]

This is not a machine. It's going to be a personal experience. And the Four Seasons piece to us was we wanted to do it with a certain sort of relaxed elegance that people felt like they deserved. Maybe they couldn't articulate it, but we wanted to treat them in a way that with a sort of hospitality or anticipatory service spirit that really made people feel connected to us. And so that is one of our values. This sort of cheers in the four seasons. It's just one of our values, but it really connects to our client experience. And it's been a part of our firm's tradition since the two of us started it.

[B]

How do you push that through the entire organization? As you have people come in, people leave, you know, you're thinking about, we're trying to deliver this exceptional. We'll call it a client experience, for lack of a better way to put it. How do you impart that across the organization? And really, I would say even, perhaps even allow it to evolve over time.

[C]

So first you do what we're doing right now. You create awareness around it and you talk about it, but you talk about it from the very beginning, from the hiring process. So one of our questions with prospective team members is tell us about a service experience that really wowed you because people who are attentive to service and hospitality will have an example. They'll have something they've noticed. It doesn't have to be in financial services. It could be in any aspect of their own lives. So from the very beginning, we're talking about it and creating awareness around it. We also have an award that we created a year ago for living our values. So we're trying to reinforce it there. And we also, I think, celebrate it every time we see it or observe it, either in ourselves or in our team members. And we really value client feedback that tells us that they're feeling the way we intend to deliver, the way we intend to treat them. The fruit of awareness is once you start talking about these things and creating, creating some mindfulness about it, it seems we get more intentional. Yeah, to me, this is not. We don't have these things, our values, plastered on our walls. It's more important to talk about them, celebrate them, reward them, and constantly be mindful of are we living these things out. And the key part is hiring people who want this. They look for it, they want to provide it, and they want to really act in the service of others again. That's a beautiful part of our industry, is most people here who are in this space have left a sales driven world to put the client on top and really serve others. And that's one of the things I love about our space.

[B]

Ellen, how has that looked for. For you? For the wealth flow, organization and it's the way that it informs even just the tone of client experience and how you deliver that out to your within your organization.

[A]

So I think it's really important feeding back into what you were saying, Matt. It's how you make the client feel. I think it's all about the level of service that you're willing to give. And I think if we can make sure that competition within the team, which I think stunts innovation and limits your future, in the words of Dan Sullivan, if we can eradicate any kind of competition and we can all just have shared values, exactly what we're explaining here, then there is such the collaboration, like you say, going into meetings with two more than one person all the time, it makes a huge difference to the client's experience, how they feel, how they finish the end of the meeting saying, no, can I get some feedback? We do two by two, we copy dimensional and we do two by two feedback both for the planners and for the client. So we'll say, what do you think we did well, what do you think we could have done differently? And I think that there makes them reflect. As for my clients, often it's, it's small steps, so they've possibly felt like they're never going to be able to do the things that they did. There's never ever going to be able to make a difference and have a desire to do what they could do before. So all of a sudden if you can take away the fear around the money running out and showing them that if we can support them step by step on this journey, all of a sudden I think the vision, the values, everything starts to become a bit more real and they definitely are seen in my words, through the green lines as whole and complete, with all their own answers on A Hero's journey.

[B]

Say more about that, Helen, you talk a lot about the answers are there. What is your role in that? Right. Because oftentimes I think, Matt, you even alluded to this. We show up, we got PowerPoint decks, we got, we got lots of questions to ask, but how do you get there?

[A]

So we've got a very structured way of working in that. We have adopted the Academy of Coaching Excellence way back when Wellslow was set up so all our team are qualified as coaches, as are we. And before we embark on any interaction with clients and sometimes even within the team, we'll do what we call setting the arena, which is when we call forth five qualities of being that we are prepared to call for because you might not have been feeling them normally. So for instance before today, I said that I was going to be. My five words were creative, empowering, generous, receptive and vulnerable. And so that's the five qualities of being that I'm willing to be in our conversation today. And I think when you do that before you go into every single meeting with a client, it just changes your perspective. Because there is no question that some of the stories, some of the sites that we have to see are quite harrowing. And it's hard unless you have the thinking that that client is whole and complete with all their own answers on a hero's journey. And all we're doing there is to support and guide. It becomes too heavy so that all of a sudden you don't be as good at your job as you could have been. So it's very important that the coaching mentality within wealth flow is at the forefront of everything we do, because not only me and whoever I'm in the meeting with, my colleague who are coaches, the support staff are equally hearing the stories and taking those stories home with them. So it's actually probably as important that the whole team is able to deal with these scenarios. So we've made sure that our values, which one of the mess we're here to guide and support, goes right through the whole forum. And coming back to, as I said, beginning when I started as a financial planner, back into this arena, this very pacific niche, without that coaching, I probably would have burnt out in six months because it would have been too heavy. I do believe coaching mentality within wealth flow has set us apart and has been an easy fit for the CIO coi. The centers of an influence that want to give us clients because that's the niche that they work in. Because that's essentially my referrals, as opposed to coming from directly from existing clients. Sorry, Taffy, that's probably me moving on too fast. But yeah, my referrals would never come from another disabled person, as you can imagine.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It would come from a lawyer that's settled the case. So if we do a good job for that client and they get the feedback that that client has been supported through that journey, then of course they will come back to us with Right type of client when it happens, when they get their next settlement.

[B]

Matt, I saw your head nodding a few times there.

[C]

Yeah. I want to underscore something Helen said that really landed with me, which is this notion of setting the arena. I bet very few of us do that in the way that Helen does, and I bet if we did, it would really benefit both us and our clients in pretty profound ways. So that really is going to stick with me.

[A]

Yeah, it sound like certainly a good thing to do. You know, we don't all feel amazing every day of our lives. So sometimes when you're about to go into meeting and you call forth those five words, all of a sudden we feel better, therefore the client feels better. So I agree with you, Matt. It's become a mantra. We don't think about it, we just do it. I could be driving along, setting the arena on the way to my client's house and it just, it just rolls off. It's not just what I've told you, it's slightly bigger, but I'll not go into the depths.

[C]

Yeah, but the professional preparation has got to have a positive impact and I think so many of us are making sure the right things are printed and the right drinks are in the room and all these little details are just so. And yet what you just said is the most impactful piece of the puzzle. And to me, I've learned this lesson over and over and over again, which is very few people give another human being their full presence and we shouldn't discount that value. If you give another person 100% of your attention and you're really focused on them and what they need, which again is only possible if you have, I think, a reasonable ratio of clients to professional. But if you have the capacity to be fully present for another person, good things are going to happen.

[B]

Matt, how do you draw that out? If you find yourself in, whether it's a late stage prospect or an existing client, maybe it's a, we'll call it a traditional couple sitting there. Oftentimes you have one of the couple, one of the pair is maybe driving the conversation more deeply engaged and then you have sometimes that almost the non financial person in the room as well too. How do you ensure through your client experience and through your engagement that both voices, both of their voices are sort of heard or how do you bring that to the surface? Because they could have different objectives and values even.

[C]

Yeah, well, there's. You brought up several different aspects of the client experience. One is where are they in their own journey? If they're a prospective relationship, we're often being interviewed or considered when something is not quite right. You know, someone told me once, like in athletics, many coaches don't get fired when they're winning. So if someone's working with someone and they think the results are good or there's not been a real problem, they're not likely to change. So most of the people we meet with are making a change because there's money in motion or there's been some problem. And so the prospective relationship has a different feeling to it than the long term client who is already sort of connected with us, understands how we work, and they generally are coming at things from a much more relaxed place. I just met with a client that we've worked with for many years and I've never seen he and his wife more relaxed. I've never seen him more at ease with things. And we've worked with him for many years. Some of it is our work, but some of it is changes in his own life. When people retire, if they had a very stressful job, their mindset changes and they need something different. So I think the big question is like, where is the other person in their own journey? What is it they need and what's our role at that particular phase? And all of this goes also with balancing this idea of service, but also providing leadership and direction. Such a good point, because ultimately I think we are paid to provide leadership and direction. The other person is saying, I don't know what to do here, help me. And we have to be willing not to say, you tell us what to do. We have to say, here's where we're going. And that takes some planning and forethought, but it also depends on the stage of the relationship.

[B]

Well, and to your last point, Helen, I'm going back to your comment earlier around some of those initial meetings where your empathy level was almost too high relative to it being detrimental to the meeting versus I have to show up as an expert, a leader, a coach. How did you evolve that? How did you get there? Because I think Matt's point is right on and got to strike that balance. We know from our global investor study that your end clients place a premium, a huge premium on your ability to offer sense of security, peace of mind. They trust you explicitly, but that doesn't happen in a moment. What does that journey look like for you?

[A]

Yeah, no, Katherine, that's a great question and it has evolved over time. But I genuinely think the first thing is to gain trust. Like any relationship, we have to build trust. And then once you get that level of trust, that they start to listen to your guidance and support again. You're right what you said, Matt, that they don't always have their own answers, but we need to show them the way to get there. I think a big deal in, certainly in wealth flow is to simplify things for our clients. Like I alluded to before our clients have never had money often before and we need to simplify and make them feel like they are in control because this is all of a sudden 8 million quid that they've never had. They've lived in a council house with no property, no wealth, they've got four other children. We need to empower them to feel like they are in control. So my job I think as a planner is to first of all gain the trust and then to take them on a very structured actually even though they might not realize it journey. We will meet with our clients as much as at least four times a year, sometimes more. There's a constant dialogue and I mean constant brain injuries. Folk will forget the entire meeting. We have a situation where husband and wife may be at the meeting, but like you said Matt, they're one that will be the stronger force. But we do feel that we have to try somehow to simplify to the person that maybe is another money orientated person so that they feel like they're equally treated. I do think the two by two feedback, the coaching, the simplification of anything that's slightly complex is what gains the trust and makes them feel comfortable. I mean even just coming into the environment of an office for a lot of these people is uncomfortable. Hence why we've got fully wheelchair accessible offices with parking outside. You know, all the wow things that you need to make that person that's disabled feel comfortable. However, that's not the full picture because actually without the real depth of trust in their advisors and it is a collaborative thing, you know, it can't just be me because what we've realized with these types of clients is they need constant access to someone. So in the best will in the world you need to have more than one person that they can, they can contact. To answer your question, I have learned that full presence in that meeting like you said Matt, that absolute one to one full presence, listening to their every single. We call it the blank sheet meeting. You know, there's nothing on the page, it's all about them, it's just listening, listening, listening. That's what I think works because you really understand what their hopes, dreams, desires are. And it takes a while when they've lost their legs or they've got brain damage or they feel like they're never going to be able to enjoy holidays with their families ever again. So it's all about bringing it back, showing them it's possible through detailed cash flow modeling and letting them see that there is a bright future for them. I'll Often say to clients, gosh, six months ago you came into this meeting room and you couldn't, you know, you couldn't walk in. Now I can see you can. You know, your prosthetic is working much better. You're walking in. I never knew you before the accident, Mr. Client. So actually, all I see is progress every time I see you. So I always speak about the positive progression that they've making in their lives, both financially and physically.

[C]

Can I say something? Helen touched on two things that I think are so important. One, I was at a dimensional conference years ago, and I heard a presenter named Charlie Green say, you all think that trust is squishy, that trust is elusive, and it's not. It can be broken down into parts. And I have never forgotten what he said next, which is the trust equation is credibility plus reliability plus intimacy, all divided by self orientation. And his entire presentation was about this very thing. And it really helped me because I did feel like trust was elusive and difficult to identify and deconstruct. Credibility is just, do I believe you can do what you say you can do? Reliability is, do you do what you say you will do? Intimacy is, do you see me and understand me? But all of that can be undermined by self orientation. And so I've been such a fan of evaluating our process and our experience through the lens of the trust equation ever since I heard it. So that's one thing I wanted to share. The other thing is this idea of simplicity as a value we offer clients. I wrote a book that came out in 2016, and I did an entire filtering of the book before it was published for words or jargon that could hijack a reader's attention.

[B]

That's great.

[C]

And I think one of the things that Helen and I probably have in common is, is when you're really trying to communicate the message in a way that is about helping another person. You're not trying to impress them by showing them all that you know, you're trying to help them understand the concepts that will really impact their lives. And so I think this idea of deconstructing trust and refining how we deliver simplicity to people and how that shows up in their real lives, I think these are really important pieces of the client experience that all of us can sort of audit against our existing process and evaluate how we could maybe even do a better job. Because I know for me, the question for our firm, the thing we wrestle with, is, what's the residue that is on these folks when they're in the parking lot, when they leave Our offices and they're in the parking lot and they look at each other for a moment. What do they say? Do they say, I feel better, I feel smarter. That was great. Wow. I love these people. I don't know what I mean. You wanna be there. That's the juiciest part. You wanna be there for that moment and understand it. But I think, just as Helen was saying before, the likelihood that the residue is what you intend probably starts with that setting the arena part.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, what are you intending to bring to them? So I really love these ideas and figuring out how we can execute on them in our process because it takes a real awareness and thoughtfulness and it takes, you know, hiring the right people who care about these things too, and.

[B]

Also staying on, you know, staying in front of it at all times, using everything that both of you described to make decisions around, is this the right client for us? Is this the right person for us? Is this a good business decision? Does it align with everything that we, you know, would we be proud to say to our client, we made a decision, made X decision in our business? Right. How does that show up? And it's definitely where in our work with advisors around, really not so much defining, but refining your value prop and that ideal target client profile, which are very tactical things, but the ones that are just lights out and really showing up, particularly with the high performing firms that are study, they've got components of all of this. They're not just talking about a client that is of a certain size or age or profession per se. Those are important things for sure. And we're all businesses that are, you know, we need to be profitable, healthy businesses. That's also showing respect to our clients. But all of these things you've talked about in terms of how do we want that client to feel after they engage with us, what does this look like on day one and day 1000 in day 5000 with us and what does that look like over time? So I love that you're all voicing that. Helen, anything you wanted to add on that?

[A]

When we start the conversations with the clients, I will quite early on say that we're not transactional. I'm not going to meet you once or meet you twice and not see you again. This is a lifelong relationship. So we set out, we're stalled from the beginning because they've gone through having a relationship with a lawyer who's fought for their case and then they've left. They're out of their life. This is the new chapter, this is the New beginning. And similar to what you were saying, Matt, we've, we've written a book about how this settlement, it's called A Guide to Managing your Financial Settlement. I say we. It's definitely not me. It's Duncan Glassy, my, my fellow director. And it talks about the emotion. It talks about. There's some testimonials from clients and we were always right, you know, in handwriting. In the beginning, we message to the client and hand that over to the client at the first meeting just to show that we have got that level of expertise in this area.

[B]

Question for both of you. Have you ever received feedback from a client that informed a change of the overall client experience that you deliver that. Does anything come to mind?

[C]

Yes, I actually, we write a handwritten note to clients for various milestones. Let's say you've been a client of ours for 10 years. I would write you a note and I would say, Katherine, thank you for your trust in us. You've been a client of our firm for 10 years. Our firm's motto is take the long view and you are well on your way. My personal cell phone is the following. And if there is ever anything that we do to delight you or even potentially let you down, I'd love to hear from you. And people will text me just saying, hey, thank you for providing your cell phone number. And sometimes it's I'm delighted, and sometimes it's, hey, this doesn't feel the way it did. And it's helpful, you know, because if you're running a small to medium sized business, no organization, just like no model of the investment world is perfect. No organization is perfect. And I think the thing that I love the most is if someone is willing to take the time to tell you what their experience is like, it already shows that they care about your organization. So the right first response is always thank you. Because you could have just kept that to yourself, built up resentment and ultimately left and told yourself a story that these people don't care. And the most generous thing is if you take the time, your own time, to say, hey, I've been let down by this service model in a way that is surprising to me. Can you hear me? Can you fix it? Can you tell me what this is about or what happened here? I mean, that does happen from time to time in the same way. Occasionally we'll make an error, a trade error that happens every so often. I think the key signal to me that we have an engaged community is when people are willing to tell you and this spirit of Candor is something that we teach and train inside of our own firm. Right now, if either one of you had food in your teeth, would I be willing to tell you that's an easy one, Right? Because for a minute you're going to be embarrassed in the short term, is going to cause, like, some disruption in the flow, and yet you might be mad at me at the end of this. If you went a whole session with a piece of spinach in your teeth and no one told you, you would think, why? Why didn't they want to tell me? And I think that this gets to a really important piece of the client dynamic too, which is if you believe in this idea. There was a book written by a woman named Kim Scott called Radical Candor that a lot of us in our firm have read. And like, it's a gift that people want to give you, their version of the truth. And so I think, yes, I have had feedback where we have not done exactly what the other person expected. And my first response is, thank you. And my next response is like, how could we do this better? Or maybe there was just a miscommunication on the expectation. I've learned no one likes a negative surprise. Most people are okay with a positive surprise, but no one likes a negative surprise. So a lot of our work is in setting expectations and crystal clear communication. And that's, you know, that's a challenge for all of us.

[B]

Helen, how about you have received feedback from a client that's informed your overall experience?

[A]

Just before I came on this call, I had a client phone and he said, and Helen, interest rates are going to fall. You're telling me to go into a bond. Is that the right thing? I said, wait, wait, wait, wait. It's a different type of bond. This is not an investment vehicle. It's a tax wrapper. And it was a learning for me to understand that actually we can speak about something that's got the same language and the client wouldn't necessarily know that. So first thing I said to the client is, Jim, I really appreciate that feedback and actually that I'm going to learn a lot from that in that when I'm recommending something like this to another client, I'll make it very clear that it is a tax wrapper. It's a different type of structure than a traditional bond. And so I think we as planners always have to be vulnerable. I think vulnerability is the biggest strength that any business can have, because if you're vulnerable and you're willing to learn, then I think we can all become better on a daily basis at our jobs. It's when we don't have that vulnerability and we think we have all the answers, that relationships will break down. We have had feedback from clients that they want us to be more available, which I'm laughing at you saying after 10 years to get your cell number, Matt, because I think they get mine in the first half an hour. And it never stop. And it never stops. But that's just the. That's just the type of client that we've got. And that comes with the. It comes with the medical negligence, personal injury type of environment that they need constant reassurance. However, think without feedback from clients. And this is where we use the two by two feedback. What could we have done differently? That's the piece that you have to really listen. They can always say, we know what we did well, but what could we have done differently? And it might be a tiny thing, but from that question or to get in the car and have the conversation, you can often fix the thing that we could have done differently or even have an open conversation say, right, thank you so much for that feedback. We'll make sure in future we do that differently. And so we try by the two by two to eradicate any negativity at the end of any meeting. I don't think, you know, that there's ever as much, but you know, that's an opportunity for the client that opens the arena for the client to then share any ill feeling or anything that they're unhappy with.

[B]

For those of you that are listening that are not familiar with the two by two feedback structure, I actually have the opportunity. This is not something, we use it a lot here at Dimensional. It was introduced to our organization by Craig Wortman, who I had an opportunity to. We actually did a podcast on this.

[C]

I don't know if either of you ever heard this, but I remember once I heard that when clients leave, one of the reasons people give sometimes is perceived indifference. So they might tell you that their name should be spelled differently and they tell you once and you didn't see it and they tell you again and you didn't see it. And little things like that can come across as perceived indifference. And to me, the opposite of perceived indifference is. And I know in business people don't like to maybe use this word sometimes, but is love. And I think attention to detail is, in my view, in some ways, love. And so I really enjoy thinking about the ways we can show someone that we care about them or to go to the extreme, we love them. So, for example, Kathryn, I heard in a prior podcast you like the Seattle Seahawks. That's your team. And if I were having a meeting with you, I might find a way to reflect that I see that or know that I might know your favorite drink. I might know that you are a pet owner and that you adore your pet. I might know these things and care about these things because I'm not indifferent. I care about you and I care about your success. And I think the way that we can incorporate these little bits of love into our process are really more important than sometimes, at least in the early part of my career, no one talked about this stuff or my mentors who were very, very helpful with getting me going in this space, we didn't discuss this kind of thing. So going back to that notion of sort of cheers and the four seasons, for me, this is one of the areas that I really enjoy. And my wife and I are clients of our own firm. When we have our meeting, we go out the door and come in together. And it's really important to me that I experience that same level of understanding, that my preferences are known and understood and captured or codified somewhere. I really enjoy incorporating these aspects of love into the client experience.

[B]

You reminded me of a book of an author that we both really enjoyed, which is Will Guidera's book on reasonable hospitality, the Remarkable Power of Giving People More than they Expect. And he talks about this idea of intention. So I want to ask you both relative to we've been talking about here client experience. I think naturally when we raise that subject with clients and even in our time today, we are thinking about how do we want our clients to feel. You might even go so far as to think about that ideal target profile services you're offering. But in my experience, it starts in the organization and it has to go beyond. For Hill Investment has to go beyond you, Matt. For wealth flow, it has to go beyond you, Helen, because you're not always in the room. You're not on the front lines with every single interaction that happens with clients. And Will talks about this idea of intention means every decision from the most obviously significant to the seemingly mundane matters. To do something with intentionality means to do it thoughtfully, clear purpose and an eye on the desired result. End quote. So how what is one thing that each of you do within your organization to to really foster this, this the mindset we've been talking about here today?

[A]

Helen so I love the conversation about love because that is without sprinkling of love on everything I do. There's no point. I absolutely do love my clients, and I pride myself in knowing every single child's name, every animal's name. That's just a given. So if I can extend that to the next layer of planners that are coming through and that you really have to want to know your client well enough that it's not a number, it's not just another. You know, we have got 100% client retention for a reason. Yes. We're not a huge firm because by design, we've decided to take a certain level of client and give them an exceptional service. But the minute you don't remember their child's name or their dog's name or meet them from their car and open the door and set up their wheelchair or carry them into their wheelchair, you've lost it. It is above and beyond to a different level of normal expectation of people, I believe. And that is something that you have to train. People that are emotional, got the emotional intelligence to start with, they can see, wow, Helen does it that way. So therefore, to keep that relationship as tight and as good as it was, I need to do the same. To find that people is not easy. That definitely is a challenge for us. But once you find the right people, it becomes quite a natural transition that they adopt some of the skill set. That is probably something that's just been in me and that I love people. And so I was always going to be in an environment where I dealt with people. But I think the key is to treat the client with the most respect and keep the relationship as tight as possible for as long as possible. And I've never lost a client, so it's hard for me to compare. But I believe that's why this industry is.

[B]

Whether it's from a regulatory standpoint or from a, you know, a technical standpoint, we. There are certain skills that you do need to have and certain aptitudes you need to have in this industry. But my belief always is that if you hire for the character, you can train for the competence, and you can teach them the technical pieces on that. You can teach someone the technical aspects of planning. I think it's harder if they don't come in. Both of you touched on this. If they don't come in with some of that wiring around curiosity and empathy, and even if it's somewhat infant with them, you know, if you see a spark there, you can. You can train, you can learn that up a lot. So I think that's a really great point. Matt, how about you? How about. What does it look like? At Hill Investment. And how do you really drive that mentality, knowing that you're not in the room for every single client interaction, per se?

[C]

Yeah, I think first and foremost, we practice on ourselves. We practice, you know, we're sort of a living laboratory. Not just with, you know, having client meetings ourselves, but sometimes we'll do exercises where I'll ask someone, do something really, you know, sort of connected for one of our. Your teammates, like give them a gift or do something for them that will surprise them or delight them, to show them. You see them and you understand them and, you know, you know what they're all about. Sometimes it's for a client, it's. It's. They're going through a tough time, and we have a person in our office who I would say, takes care of most of our friendlies, which is like, you know, a gesture to the other person to sort of either ease something they're going through or celebrate something that just happened in their lives. You know, this. One of the most satisfying aspects of this career is you can blend together education, service and hospitality and leadership and direction. And that is just. To me, it's just such a magical combination. And so if you're training it and managing for it and celebrating it and talking about it, I think it's likely to happen if you're surveying for it and finding sort of anecdotes to build on. One thing I wanted to say that I think connects to. I'm a big fan of Danny Meyer also, and I've had him on. He was a past podcast guest of mine, and I think a lot about how you can. His genius really was in deconstructing the front of the house and restaurants. Like, what does hospitality mean? What does it mean to technically deliver the thing that the person expects? They ordered a glass of wine. Did you bring that glass of wine? Yes. That counts for 49%. But the other 51% is how you make them feel. And I think this is just such a critical piece of the puzzle, because as we in our industry go beyond the spreadsheet and deal with sort of managing human behavior, to me, this is the most fun part. I know people who don't like this part because it's hard. It's tricky. Sometimes people make decisions we don't want them to. But to me, that's what makes this fun. And it's also one of the reasons. And this could be somewhat controversial, because I have lots of friends who like to specialize, and they like to tell me how I should specialize, but I like dealing with a wide variety of people because it makes it really fun to figure out how to serve them, how to see them, how to understand them, how to treat them. You know, I would say as a leader, I also don't want to make a company full of mini me's. I want to create a healthy ecosystem where people can become the best version of themselves but still be rooted in some of the values and the ideals that our firm has been about since we started. I love a boutique environment because I like the camaraderie and fellowship that comes from small stuff, from a small organization. That's just part of my own personal preference. That doesn't mean there aren't advantages to bigger organizations. It just means that's what we're about. And so for clients who are looking for our pointy point of view and they want to know what we're all about, they'll see we are evidence based investing evangelists and we care deeply about service and hospitality. And ultimately we want to make their lives better. We want to change their view of investing and ultimately give them back time and energy to spend on other things. And so when people, when clients repeat back to us our sort of mantra, take the long view, and how that plays out is I see someone in a grocery store and they go, hey, Matt, I saw what's happening in the news, but don't worry, I take the long view. To us, that's huge success because they're quieting the noise and they're taking a bigger, broader view. And that is Even though there's 15 people here in three different physical locations, actually more because I have remote people. You know, that is the thing that connects us is ultimately we're trying to change the way people think and feel about investing in a way that shows up for them in their real life. Not just how they deal with small value performance, but how it affects their ability to contextualize things that are happening in the world. And that's, you know, that's why I love this stuff. It's so fun.

[B]

Awesome. That's so awesome. I love that. So final question for both of you and then we'll close out our time. I feel like we could talk for another hour or so. But Matt, if someone's listening today who maybe even is feeling pretty darn good as they should, 99% retention, client retention rate in our Global Advisor study. You all should feel pretty darn good about your ability to keep clients. But if there's one thing that they could do today to assess their offering their client experience and maybe look for an opportunity to enhance it or improve it. What comes to mind?

[C]

No, I love this question because I think there is. I'd like to connect it to a modern tool We've been experimenting with an AI notetaker that takes better notes than anyone here has ever taken, ever. And again, it's not perfect. You have to teach it, you have to work with it a little bit. But I find it brilliant. And one of the most important insights is it quickly tells you who was talking the most. Were you talking or were they talking? And for what percentage of the meeting?

[B]

Love it.

[C]

And I think in this era, our role is shifting from having all the answers to continuing to refine the questions. And just like with using AI, it's really about the quality and the depth of your question that will help depend, you know, determine what you get back. So how can you refine your queries and listen? How can you seek to understand and not lecture? You know, going back to those early days or the beginning of this podcast where we talked about having too many PowerPoints and too much information on each side, you know, that sort of over preparedness to create, you know, confidence. I can answer any question. I've had my own experience with a health situation that happened shortly after we started our firm, where a doctor refused to answer my 10 questions I brought to the meeting. And he said, you're going to do two things. You're going to take the medicine I'm telling you to take and you're going to get on with your life. And my immediate reaction to that was, like, what? You're not going to answer my questions? But by the time I got home, I thought, wow, that was leadership and direction. He quieted the noise and he helped me move forward in a productive way. And I hope others who are listening, if they think about one thing they can do, I think it's less about having all the answers and it's about sort of providing leadership and direction and asking these questions, good questions, knowing which ones to answer and which ones to steer away from and figuring out how much we're talking and how much we're listening. And the AI notes, I would say they don't lie, they don't have preferences. They tell you what happened.

[B]

No biases, no preference. Yep. Helen, what comes to mind when there's one thing that someone listening could potentially take back to the organization today and really assess their client experience?

[A]

Yeah. No. So I'm sure you're not going to be surprised when I say this, Katherine, but it's been success for our clients, for business, our people is what drives us. And to develop a coaching environment within your organization, I truly believe makes that happen quicker, easier, more seamlessly. So that would be my one takeaway. If we were to start again from scratch, I would have everybody qualified coaches right from the off and then, as you say, you can build the rest. But we need to, we need to really listen, have the green lines see people as whole and complete, set the arena, do two by two feedback, and I believe you will have 100% happy clients.

[C]

Could I throw one thing in if you want to use this instead of what I said before?

[B]

Matt yes.

[C]

If we take from this podcast, I love the one thing I would do and I'm going to do is take what Helen said about setting the arena. I really love that. And I would think about this question we have, which is what's the residue you want people thinking about in the parking lot? And then back into does my meeting? Does the framework for the meeting and the tools we're providing and the way we're going to talk about these things, does it support my objectives? Because I think if you set the stage and then you think about what you want the conclusion to be and back into it, do all of my dissolve my work, support what my aim is, you know, you're likely to have success. And sometimes I think we're just, you know, doing the things we think are important without really considering what's the end result. And does everything else that I've put together support what I'm trying to deliver here?

[A]

I just feed into that. Matt Coming back to the coaching piece, we use a tool with our clients called Life's Intentions, which will give me a real steer what is important to the client. It asks a question, 20 questions, and you mark 1 to 5, whether it's important. Do you want to be an entrepreneur? Do you want to be a leader? Do you want to be a creator of beauty, a loving family member, a loving friend? These questions maybe sound very unimportant and mundane, but actually to really start to uncover your client that you've possibly, you know, they've come across the threshold feeling extremely nervous about having to embark on this new journey with all this money that's a weight around their neck. If we can just uncover some nugget that can then let us deliver the objectives. Dreams touch their lives in a way that we want to touch their lives so that when they go into the parking lot and they can have the conversation say, and this is a real story, I can get that Lamborghini because it's achievable of it. That's my last piece.

[B]

It's amazing. It's amazing. Thank you both. Thank you both for the generosity of your time and your insights, your business leaders. But more importantly, you are engaging and serving clients in a way that I think there's a lot of takeaways from our time today. And so just thank you, Matt. Thank you, Helen.

[A]

Thank you, Matt.

[C]

Thank you, Katherine. Yeah, thank you, Helen. That was fun.

[B]

Good to see you both and with everyone listening today. If you want to connect with Matt or Helen, you can find them on LinkedIn for sure. And if you'd like to know more about how Dimensional works with advisors, you can find [e-mail] with that. We'll say goodbye for now and we'll see you all next time.

[C]

Thank you for joining us for Dimensional Fund Advisors Managing youg Practice Podcast. For more information, please visit www.dimensional.com. dimensional Fund Advisors LP is an investment advisor advisor registered with the securities and Exchange Commission. The views, information or opinions expressed during this podcast are solely those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of Dimensional or its affiliates. Dimensional is not responsible for and does not verify for accuracy any of the information contained in the podcast. All expressions, information and opinions are subject to change. This podcast is distributed for informational purposes and it is not to be construed as an offer, solicitation, recommendation or endorsement of any particular security, products or services. Please consult with qualified legal or tax professionals regarding your individual circumstances. Investing involves risks. Risks include loss of principal and fluctuating value. This podcast is available for private, non commercial use only. You may not edit, modify or redistribute this podcast without the express written consent of Dimensional. Dimensional assumes no liability for any activities in connection with this podcast or for use in connection with any other website, computer or playing device.