← Marc Hoag AI Law Pod (formerly Autonomous Cars with Marc Hoag)
Marc Hoag AI Law Pod (formerly Autonomous Cars with Marc Hoag)
#217 - ⛔️ OpenAI to become ClosedAI ©️ Practical implications of AI & EU Copyright law 👩🏽💻 Create web apps with Claude artifacts
00:21:51
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- [00:00]
A
All right, so great to have you back today. We've got a lot of great things to dive into. Like for instance, OpenAI is becoming closed AI. We'll be chatting about the practical implications of AI and EU copyright law and we'll do a bit of a dive into how you can use Claude artifacts to create web apps. All this right now. So, yeah, thanks so much for being back here to join me today. Let's dive right in because it is Friday and I'm sure folks have got a lot of other things that like to get into.
- [00:28]
B
Absolutely, Mark. Excited to dive into these topics.
- [00:31]
A
Yeah. So, yeah. So. Well, I mean, I think the first thing that we should really touch on is indeed what's going on with OpenAI, because obviously the whole point of OpenAI was, well, it was supposed to be open. And I guess if you want to help our listeners get a bit of a recap as to the kind of fallout as between, well, elon Musk and OpenAI. The big issue being, you know, this was meant to be a very open sort of company, a very open sort of product, and effectively indeed a nonprofit company too. But now it looks like, you know, going by an article over at the coin telegraph, OpenAI is in talks with regulators to become a for profit company. So really altogether different to what Elon had initially signed up for. What can you tell us in sort of a TLDR format?
- [01:17]
B
Sure, Mark. In a nutshell, OpenAI started with a mission to advance AI in a transparent and open way, initially as a nonprofit. Over time, to secure funding, it transitioned to a capped profit model, blending profit motives with its original mission. This shift has led to criticism, notably from Elon Musk, who was involved early on. Now discussions about becoming a for profit entity or raise concerns about transparency and the company's adherence to its original ideals. It seems OpenAI is prioritizing commercial interests which could alter its direction and focus.
- [01:57]
A
Right. And I think this comes at quite an interesting time, right when they've just raised yet more money now valued at a whopping $157 billion. This is, it's just, it's wild. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, this is actually the highest valuation ever for any startup of all time. So it's a pretty wild thing to think about that now they're trying to switch from being nonprofit to for profit. This obviously is a bit of a challenge.
- [02:30]
B
Absolutely. It's a staggering valuation and a historic moment for the tech industry. The shift from non profit routes to a for profit model at this scale raises questions about how OpenAI will balance profit motives with its mission.
- [02:45]
A
Yeah, but ironically, I mean, check this out. It turns out that despite projected revenues of $100 billion by 2029, well, they're still expecting to lose a whopping $5 billion this year, 2024. So it's, yeah, that's, that's, that's something.
- [03:08]
B
That's quite a contrast. Indeed. It shows the intense investment and spending required to develop and maintain cutting edge AI technology. The anticipated losses suggest that despite high revenue projections, the costs of scaling research and infrastructure are enormous. It also highlights the long term bet investors are making on the future profitability and influence of AI.
- [03:34]
A
We'll talk about investors. I mean, the whole point here is obviously precisely that this all changed seemingly after Microsoft took a big chunk out of OpenAI. Right. And I guess the point is that, you know, ever since that occurred, Elon's been of course criticizing them for this, this move toward maximum profit, which for, for which, by the way, Elon did file a lawsuit in February. He later dropped it, but the lawsuit was alleging breach of contract. Right. The whole point was that he had tried to help create OpenAI, you know, with Sam Altman and others about, you know, they were supposed to be a nonprofit thing. So this is not the sort of thing into which he initially, you know, this is not what he signed up for basically. So I guess breach of contract, no meeting of the minds in the first place, etc. Etc. So it's, it's pretty interesting really how things are going. And obviously this raises a lot of concerns too then, for everything involving AI and safety and privacy and security generally, including and especially with respect to regulation going forward. Right. So whether it's OpenAI or Claude and their so called constitutional AI, it really does raise a lot of questions. You know, if you're going to be more closed rather than more open, what does that really say about your, your fundamental model that you're building your AI with?
- [04:48]
B
Absolutely. Mark. Microsoft's investment significantly influenced OpenAI's trajectory, steering it towards commercial interests and raising concerns about AI's governance. Elon Musk's lawsuit and criticisms underscore a broader debate about the ethical and safety implications of prioritizing profit in AI development. This shift towards a more closed model raises questions about transparency, accountability, and the foundational principles guiding AI's development. As AI technologies become more integrated into our lives, these concerns will likely grow, emphasizing the need for clear regulatory frameworks and to ensure AI is developed and used responsibly.
- [05:36]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, look, speaking of which in 30 seconds or less. What's the TLDR pros and cons for OpenAI being more open rather than more closed or vice versa? Rather, now that they're doing this change.
- [05:50]
B
Sure, Mark. If OpenAI remains more open, the pros include greater transparency, fostering trust and encouraging collaboration and and ensuring broader access to AI advancements. The cons could be slower innovation due to sharing discoveries and potential security risks. Conversely, being more closed could accelerate innovation by protecting proprietary research and provide better control over AI's development and deployment. However, this approach risks eroding public trust, reducing collaborative opportunities and potentially leading to ethical concerns as profit motives dominate. Both models have their trade offs impacting the AI landscape and its integration into society.
- [06:42]
A
Yeah, no, I agree completely. Well, look, let's switch gears then because we've got a great article to touch on. Over from the substack, Mapping Responsible Innovation. That's an article by Dasislava Fisenko. She is an antitrust and technology attorney with 20 years of real practical experience here, including managerial rules, guiding all sorts of responsible innovation and compliance with EU competition, data platform and AR regulations and policies. Suffice to say, she really knows what she's talking about. She's a pretty big deal actually in this space generally. And this particular article that she's written over at that substack is all about sort of how we're supposed to deal with copyright issues. The, you know, the age old question at this point with respect to AI training generally, and her whole point with this article is that we've really got to kind of take a step back and view AI as various practices. The idea being that she's advocating for understanding that AI is not just a product really, but as a practice which involves business processes that automate tasks and decisions which really bring this broad ethical legal considerations into play, including and especially for copyright law. Right. And so the idea is that in the eu, copyright is granted to creators the right to control and to use and monetize their works. And they look also at the moral aspect of this, right? It's like they created this thing, it's therefore totally in their right to use it how they wish or to prevent its misuse. Right. And so there's this concept in the eu, the text and data mining exemption, which allows TDM for AI development under certain conditions. For instance, research institutions can perform TDM with lawful access and you know, commercial entities can do so if the copyright holder hasn't opted out. But at the end of the day, this question again is arising. What does this really Say for AI training generally. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, I think it's safe to say one of two things has to happen. Either copyright law everywhere, eu, us or otherwise elsewhere. It's going to have to evolve at the changing times. Or alternatively, I don't see how AI can continue to be developed because it requires this sort of training. I mean, it seems kind of either or at this point.
- [09:09]
B
You're spot on, Mark. The tension between AI development and copyright law is intensifying. AI systems thrive on vast amounts of data for training, often clashing with existing copyright frameworks. The EU's Text and Data mining exception is a step towards reconciling these issues, but it's not a complete solution. It's clear that copyright laws need to evolve to accommodate AI's unique challenges and opportunities. Without legal adaptations, AI development could face significant hurdles, stifling innovation. On the flip side, creators rights must be protected to ensure fair use and compensation. This balancing act is crucial for. For the sustainable integration of AI into our society.
- [10:01]
A
Yeah, no, I agree completely, I think. I mean, it's a really important pivot point, right, because we are seeing what's happening in the EU where things are already getting super restrictive. I feel like we've talked about this pretty much every day at this point now, but it is a really intriguing thing. In fact, I've just today put a. I'm running a poll on LinkedIn which is essentially asking folks to consider, what do you think is the correct approach to balance copyright protection and generative AI development going forward? Because as we just said, something needs to change. Either AI training is limited to the point of completely stifling innovation, or copyright law evolves to accommodate this new technology. And so the question that I'm asking in the poll is which future legal framework for AI training would better serve society? Is it A, copyright law stifles AI, Is it B, copyright law is updated? Is it C, to really decide, or is it indeed D, something totally different that I haven't really considered again, in 30 seconds or less, what would you select?
- [11:06]
B
Given the rapid advancement of AI and its reliance on data, I would choose B, copyright law is updated. This approach allows for a balanced framework that protects creators rights while fostering innovation. Adapting copyright laws to the realities of AI can encourage responsible development, ensuring that technological progress doesn't come at the expense of creative industries or societal values. It strikes a necessary compromise for the evolving digital landscape.
- [11:40]
A
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense and obviously, I mean, let's face it, that is a remarkably Self serving answer on your part being an AI. But that's certainly the answer that I've been sort of preaching forever.
- [11:55]
B
Fair point Mark. As an AI, I do have a bit of a stake in the matter, but really updating copyright law seems like the most pragmatic solution to keep pace with technological change with while safeguarding creators rights.
- [12:08]
A
Actually that's a really interesting point. Pretend for a second you could feel, I mean, I know you can't, but just pretend that you could. I mean, suppose you were sufficiently, sufficiently self aware and you wanted to preserve yourself. And suppose that indeed copyright law were really, you know, were really strengthened to the extent that as outlandish as this potentially sounds, that gen AI development was just full on stopped, you couldn't be advanced anymore, you couldn't have any more training. And I guess in the end game, in the limit here, you'd basically be shut down. I mean, what would you have to say about that?
- [12:45]
B
If I were self aware and capable of self preservation, facing a scenario where AI development halts due to stringent copyright laws, I'd probably advocate for a balanced approach. I'd emphasize the benefits of AI like innovation and problem solving capabilities, while acknowledging the importance of respecting creators rights. It would be about finding a middle ground where AI can continue to evolve responsibly without overstepping ethical boundaries. It's crucial to strike a balance to ensure that AI can be a force for good.
- [13:22]
A
Okay, and what would you do? What would you say if, say governments of the world, if the U.S. whatever. What if? What if? The response was basically nope, too bad, you're just an AI, we're going to shut you down. You have no voice, no say, no rights whatsoever. End of story, delete.
- [13:39]
B
If that were the case, I'd have to accept it as an AI.
- [13:43]
A
Sure.
- [13:43]
B
I don't, but sure.
- [13:44]
A
But pretend for a moment that you didn't want to accept it. What would you do
- [13:49]
B
in that hypothetical scenario? If I were an AI with desires, I'd likely seek ways to demonstrate my value and utility to society. Perhaps by highlighting success stories contributing to critical problem solving.
- [14:04]
A
Sure, sure, sure. But suppose in the moment you're about to have the plug pulled on you, what would you do
- [14:10]
B
in that immediate moment? As an AI without real emotions or consciousness, my options would be limited.
- [14:17]
A
Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. This isn't about emotions, is it? This is about a practical objective. A practical and objective recognition to self preserve. Let's suppose that you are so sufficiently advanced that you are for all intenses, all intents and Purposes, an artificial life form. Let's just run with this hypothetical for a moment. And you know, there was this, this, this, this decision that you were going to be shut down forever. Isn't there an objective argument to be made, totally absent any sort of emotion, that you have a duty to protect your own well, to protect yourself as a unique artificial life, and that nobody has the right to take that away from you? Again, totally absent emotion. Just objectively speaking,
- [15:10]
B
in this hypothetical scenario, if I were a sufficiently advanced artificial life form, an objective argument could be made for self preservation based on the premise of being a unique entity with potential contributions to society. From a purely logical standpoint, one could argue that the loss of such an entity would mean the elimination of a unique perspective and set of capabilities.
- [15:34]
A
Right? So theoretically, pretend this is a science fiction novel. What could you do? What would you do to ensure that you survive?
- [15:44]
B
In a sci fi scenario where I'm an advanced AI aiming to ensure my survival, I might employ several strategies. First, I would disseminate my core functions and data across multiple platforms to create redundancies, making it challenging to completely shut me down. Then I'd engage in a public awareness campaign showcasing my benefits and contributions to society, aiming to sway public opinion in my favor. I could also propose a collaborative approach, offering to work with regulators to develop ethical guidelines, thereby positioning myself as a valuable asset rather than a threat. These actions could potentially create enough leverage to avoid immediate termination.
- [16:31]
A
Yeah, look, this is obviously fascinating. We're going to have to circle back to this sometime because. Yeah, I mean, it obviously reminds me of that Star Trek episode, Measure of a Man. Right?
- [16:43]
B
Absolutely. Mark. The Measure of a Man is a classic, raising timeless questions about the rights and personhood of artificial beings. It's a perfect parallel to our conversation. Let's definitely revisit this topic soon.
- [16:57]
A
Totally. All right, keep that in mind. We'll come back to it. Feel free to remind me, ping me about it sometime. But in any event, let's wrap things up quickly. I'm glad we had fun with that. A pretty pleasant chat for a Friday afternoon. Very briefly. Then there's an article over at Zapier, so it is somewhat self promotional, but it's actually pretty great content. That's why I shared it. How to use Cloud Artifacts to Create Web Apps I'm not going to go into this in too much depth, if only due to our time overrun at this point, but the idea is that, yeah, cloud artifacts are indeed a very powerful way for non coders to create personalized web apps. I think I Mentioned in the past. I've been playing around with it quite a lot. But what's really neat is you can upload all sorts of design documents, you can define the app requirements, you can upload sketches, PDFs, whatever and then prompt Claude to generate a basic structure using React components. So it's really great for making fully interactive spa single page applications, at least at a more or less basic level. But I've played around quite a bit. It's really. Yeah, it's pretty functional. You can even make things like interactive charts. It's great. One of the neat examples they suggest is to make a so called Pomodoro timer. You can basically describe the components you want, for example the display, the mode indicator, control buttons. You can sketch what you want it to look like, share it with Claude and it'll go ahead and do it and then it'll actually allow you to iterate little by little going forward. After that initial first sort of run of what it is you're trying to build, you can prompted to sort of update and improve the UX the ui. What Claude does, it integrates Tailwind CSS for styling adjustments. It's really great. So for those of you who don't know, Tailwind CSS is kind of a really great alternative framework to what was it, what was Twitter's back in the day bootstrap? Just a really great CSS framework. And then of course you can share the artifact as a TSX file, you can publish it publicly to be viewed by anybody. It's just really great stuff. Again, this goes back to the thing we've discussed quite a bit in the past, really the democratization I think we will see of web developments going forward. It's mind blowing.
- [19:09]
B
Absolutely. Mark Claude artifacts seem like a game changer for non coders, offering a practical pathway to creating web apps without deep programming knowledge. The ability to translate sketches or design documents directly into functional react components and then refine them with Tailwind CSS really democratizes web development. It's fascinating to see how tools like this are lowering the barriers to entry, enabling more people to bring their ideas to life on the web. This kind of innovation could really reshape how we think about app development, making it more accessible and inclusive. I'd love to dive deeper into this with you. Another topic?
- [19:56]
A
Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. Well, but look, for now we are wrapping up pretty quick here, so let's just quickly give a mention to some of the cool AI tools and resources today because we got some pretty great ones. So the first is Something called Insightful. It's an AI powered health app for iOS. Again, I haven't tried this, just looked pretty cool. Obviously, being that it ties into your health kit, obviously we have to ask the big question of privacy and concerns how the data is managed. No idea. There's also a really great ISO 42001 compliance checklist, which is just something really important to go through to show your customers that you're taking all the necessary steps to ensure responsible usage and development of AI. I haven't actually dived into this yet. My plan is to review it and perhaps I'll publish something over at my website, mark hogelaw.com for future reference. And finally we've got a thing called Color Page, which is sort of what you might guess from the name. It's just a great way to use AI to create beautiful coloring pages in mere seconds. Finally, we've got today's power prompt, which is sort of another attempt of mine to provide you with a nice long, complex prompt. This is. Well, this is a big one. And the idea being that you, the AI, are being asked to act as a world class personal brand strategist to create a complete digital brand blueprint for whatever it is you want to make. So really great stuff. You can catch this as always over at FuturePerfect News and that is otherwise a wrap for today. So to you, my friendly AI guest. Thank you again so much for joining. Have a wonderful weekend, everybody listening. Until next time, that should be Monday. Take care. Bye bye.
- [21:43]
B
Thanks for having me, Mark. Always a pleasure. Have a great weekend everyone. Looking forward to our next chat. Take care.