← Marketing Against The Grain
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- [00:00]
Kieran
On this episode we are going to show you an incredible use case with Codex. Codex is the tool of choice for any real AI practitioners at the moment and Peter Yang is one of the best of it. He's going to come on, he's going to help you build your very first workflow. He's going to give you an eval skill that Codex will build that will make your workflow better every single time you use it. And why does it even matter? If you pick the right workflow, you are going to get a ton of time back to do the work you actually enjoy doing. You can get that all, all here first and exclusive on marketing against the Grain. Peter, thanks very much for coming onto the show. You are going to go through one of the topics I'm fascinated by, which is not only how do you create skills to help you build reusable automations within Codex or Claude, but how do you do evals? How do you know these things are good, gonna drive outcomes?
- [00:55]
Peter Yang
Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.
- [00:57]
Host
Yes. For people who might not be familiar, evals is like very much like a software AI product term, but it's something that is really just a mechanism to help teach AI how to make its output better. And we're going to talk about that, we're going to talk about skills today. And Peter, before we get started, you had a pretty hot take that maybe we started out with.
- [01:17]
Peter Yang
My number one advice for all of you is to Basically stop using ChatGPT and Claude and switch your main workflows to Codex and cloud code. ChatGPT Cloud is like you just chat with it, it replies and you copy and paste some information back and forth. But codecs and cloud code can actually get stuff done for you. So that has a difference. Right. And I think anyone can save so much time in your week in three steps. And the three steps are like number one, just reflect on your past week. What are the tasks that take up the most time, are the most annoying to do, like the most manual work that you have to do.
- [01:50]
Host
Right.
- [01:51]
Peter Yang
Step two is just like literally list out every single step of that manual workflow, like all the stuff they have to do and then use codecs or cloud code to turn it into a system. So basically just like copy and paste all your manual steps into one of these apps and be like, hey, let us work on streamlining this. And I promise you it will kind of be blown away by what it can actually do through skills or through APIs and through other integrations.
- [02:15]
Kieran
Peter, one thing I think non Systems builders struggle with. So if you're not really a systems thinker and you're just doing your work, you might not even think of your work in terms of workflows. You might not even really know what a workflow is, right? Like, I go here, I do some research, I create a blog post, I publish it, I go get some data to see if it's performing pretty well, and then I iterate and improve on it. But I suspect a lot of content creators would not even think that's a workflow. So can you maybe help explain how you think of a workflow and then what is a workflow? How do I actually document those things or figure out what workflows I'm even doing day to day?
- [02:49]
Peter Yang
I think a workflow is basically just like a task that you have to do like, let's say more than once a week and like document them is literally just like listing all the steps that you take. So I have this like, pretty fancy slide for, you know how I used to run my podcasts manually. But you don't have to make a fancy slide. You just literally just have to list all the things that you do, right? So, for example, for running a podcast, before you even record anything, you have to prep the interview guide. You got to research the guests, you know, manually, go through a bunch of YouTube interviews and online research. You gotta figure out what the structure of the interview is. You gotta write the guide and then you send it to the guest and then you record it in Riverside, right? And then send the recording to the video editor. Then you gotta pull the transcript. Because with the podcast, there's so many different other assets they have to generate. So I have a newsletter post tied to it. I have social media posts, I have the thumbnail copy and title takes forever to figure out for YouTube, right? And then there's other stuff, like show notes and other stuff. You gotta like make all this other stuff and then go back and forth and then finally schedule all this stuff or post all this stuff to the different platforms. And like, I repeat this workflow like, you know, once or twice every week. Because I interview one or two guests every week and it's just like incredibly manual and time consuming. So yesterday I spent the whole day working with Codex to figure out how to streamline and automate a lot of this stuff through skills.
- [04:07]
Host
I think people who are just used to using Claude or ChatGPT are used into really quick tasks. You know, like a quick back and forth, a quick copy and paste. I think something really important, what you Said is like, you spent a lot of your day yesterday in Codex building this. It's like, when you're building systems, it does take a while and take a lot of iteration, right?
- [04:25]
Peter Yang
Yeah, exactly. I used to have all this stuff in projects, so I have a shownotes project that has like a bunch of prompts and examples, and I used to just copy and paste stuff back and forth into different platforms, right? And this wasn't bad. It still saved me a lot of time. But I think Codex and cloud code just took it to the next level. So this is Codex. Don't get intimidated by this stuff, guys. It's basically just the chat with AI in different platform, right? So these are all just like different chats with AI. People talk about like, oh, I built a personal OS and I build this and that, and what the hell is a personal os? If you want to build a personal os, then just think about what are your main workflows during the week? Like, my main workflows as a creator are like, you know, writing my newsletter post, running my community sponsor stuff and podcasts, and then just kind of map out the steps. Right? So this is the readme file for my various work workflows in my personal os. And let's look at the podcast one. So the podcast one, I have these skills that I built and a skill is pretty much just a text file. It's like text file with a bunch of instructions for AI. But I have a skill that prepares the podcast for me. And by the way, all these skills, it's not just like one shot and you're done. You still have to go back and forth with AI and apply your human taste. But, like, it just makes it so much easier to kind of back and forth if you build these skills, right? So I have a podcast prep skill. I have a thumbnail skill to kind of just gut check. Because when you make a podcast, you want to make sure the thumbnail title and copy is actually interesting. Otherwise you probably should not make the podcast at all. And then after I record it, I have all these, like, post blogging skill that makes all the individual assets so I can go back and forth with it. So by chaining all these skills together, I'm able to kind of like really save a lot of time in my podcast flow.
- [06:02]
Host
Hey, guys, we are covering a ton of ground with Peter today, and I know you're probably feeling a little overwhelmed and you want to learn even more. Well, good thing we've got a ton of resources for you. You can scan that QR code, or you can click the link in the description below and we'll get all of those for free.
- [06:16]
Kieran
Are you a recent convert to Codex because you showed us cloud projects, so maybe talk about why you migrated to Codex for these systems.
- [06:29]
Peter Yang
I guess as a creator, I have, like, unlimited usage of both apps. You know, I want to first say that I love both products, but I will say that Codex has really won me over recently. And there's a couple of things that Codex does really well. The thing that it does the best, I think, is like, browser use and computer use. If there's no, like, API to pull information, it can just use the browser and go, like, browse a bunch of paid pages and get the information for you. I find that it's, like, a lot more robust than what cloud code has. And I always turn on fast mode for codecs. I'm not going to hit the limits anyway. So I turn on fast mode and I'm able to get a lot more work done.
- [07:05]
Host
You know, so much of the Internet, especially in the early adopter, and it talks about, like, model and model quality and that matters, but the software around them matters as much or more, you know, and like, a lot of why we want to use codecs right now is because of the actual software harness that they've built, more so than the core underlying model.
- [07:24]
Kieran
Could you then maybe run through how you use this system? So you've kind of documented your workflow, You've gone into Codex. When you've built a skill, do you have to worry about where the skill is saved? Like, maybe talk a little bit about just build the kind of how easy it is to build skills in codecs and then how you can kind of run them.
- [07:40]
Peter Yang
So let's open one of these skills. So I have a podcast prep skill to research the guest. Right. It's just a text file.
- [07:47]
Host
Yeah.
- [07:47]
Peter Yang
And it looks pretty complicated, but I did not type any of the stuff. Like, I basically got Codex to do it, and then I reviewed it. The process of building a skill is like, you have an idea, like, hey, you know, I want to do research for my guests and I want to build a skill around it. Let's work on it together. Ask me any questions that you have. Right. And then you'll ask a bunch of questions. And then the important thing is after you build it, you want to run through the skill manually. You want to test it with something.
- [08:13]
Kieran
Quick question on skills. Because I build a lot of skills, I would be really honest that I have stopped kind of reading them, and I think what you're going to show is I use them and then I give feedback to Claude to redo the skill and I'll read them if it doesn't get to the standard that I want. But I try to do it through iteration of usage.
- [08:34]
Peter Yang
So I think there is a risk here that it just eventually leads to AI slob sprawl.
- [08:39]
Kieran
Yeah, right.
- [08:39]
Peter Yang
They just have somebody sprawl everywhere. So I actually built a skill called Skill Editor. Each time it builds a skill, it runs Skill Editor and it tries to make the skill as concise as possible, like I do to one page. And it cuts out all the AI slop terms. It looks for like repetitive instructions just to keep it a little bit more tight.
- [08:55]
Kieran
Yeah. Because it overcomplicates everything. Right. And so I've just. I have a very similar skill that are run against skills and tries to make them as short.
- [09:03]
Peter Yang
Yeah.
- [09:03]
Kieran
The least amount of text for the same amount of power.
- [09:05]
Peter Yang
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So what is this doing right now? So it's running podcast prep and then it's running another skill called thumbnail title copy to figure out the angle and it's researching a bunch of your past appearances in YouTube to get the transcripts and kind of try to figure out what kind of interesting angles we can talk about. Right. The thing about things you remember here with the codecs and clock code is like, if you just asset, like, hey, can you actually just pull the transcripts from the recent guest from. From YouTube and like, just save it? Just ask the question, Ask the question and they'll probably figure out how to do it for you. Like any kind of like online work or activity, you'll probably figure out how to do it for you. So you just have to ask.
- [09:44]
Host
Especially with computer use in Codex and giving Codex the ability to use your computer, you can get so, so much done.
- [09:50]
Peter Yang
Exactly.
- [09:51]
Host
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- [10:23]
Kieran
If I'm a marketeer or someone watching this and I want to build this Workflow. Could you maybe talk about how has that changed your ability to do podcast? And like, are you able to figure out what has been the core impact or upside to you?
- [10:40]
Peter Yang
I think there's a couple things. Number one, I feel like I'm not doing this work alone anymore. I think as a creator it can be kind of a lonely experience. Right? It's just my brain trying to figure things out. But now I feel like I have a really good thought partner to figure out the thumbnail titles and like figure out the angle with me. So that's like super helpful. Like a lot of the work is like manual copy and pasting back and forth through Google Docs and formatting stuff and doing all that stuff. And like, you can pretty much just teach codex to do all that manual work. So hopefully it frees up my mind to, you know, either play more video games or to think more about how to grow the overall thing, you know, so. So yeah, it unlocks kind of like a higher order level of thinking. I do think there is kind of like AI psychosis a little bit. And I almost feel like if I don't have codecs or cloud code to think with me, like I'm almost a little bit too lazy to think anymore, you know, which is probably not a good thing.
- [11:30]
Host
I guess that's what I would jump in here is like, I think Kieran and I violently agree with something you said earlier where if you don't have like the human taste review in any of the work you're doing with AI, the work's not going to be great. But then I guess my follow up would be if, like, if this AI psychosis is real and you're constantly using AI, do you think that like dilutes your taste?
- [11:50]
Peter Yang
I think it could help you refine your taste. Because, like, you know, for example, I have a personal advisor skill where like, there's some principles that I really want to remember. You know, like, for example, one of the principles is keep the main thing the main thing. Because like, as a creator you can easily like, like I can go make a course, I can go write a book, I can go do, I can go to like a bunch of AI conferences. But like the main thing is like making a podcast and the newsletter good. So it kind of reminds me of that. Like sometimes I forget. But yeah, you do kind of get a little bit lazy. You kind of like ask the AI a bunch of questions and rely on to give you a bunch of answers that you kind of make a judgment on as opposed to kind of thinking through the answers yourself.
- [12:25]
Kieran
I think that is something to be mindful of because I have experienced the same thing. There's two things you kind of start to experience. Harvard Business Review came out with an article, I think in, in March of this year where they talked about something called, I think it was AI brain fatigue. But one of the things in there they said because you kind of feel like you should be running a multitude of tasks at any one time, right? So like in a pre AI world, you might be multitasking a little bit, but you're kind of like trying to do one task at a time because you can only do one task at a time. Whereas with AI you feel like you're under productive if you're not running a multitude of different things at once because the agents are running things. And they had this like pretty cool article that said people were getting migraines, brain fatigue, and really wondering like, what am I even working on? Because they have so many things going at once. One of the best things I built out in the past six months in cloud code was like an entire content system and it works really well and I got really addicted to using it. And I realized I went to like Grammarly just to write something by myself and I couldn't figure out how to start the thing. Like I just couldn't start from scratch.
- [13:30]
Host
You turned yourself into an editor.
- [13:31]
Kieran
Yeah. And it's not too dissimilar to critical thinking. Cause you've made that point. I see that as well, where like you're or I'm going to try and solve this problem and your brain just doesn't naturally kick in the way it used to. Because I'm like, okay, well the first thing I would do is like tell Claude, here's the problem, Frame it up in these three ways and do some first principle thinking. And so you definitely have to be very conscientious of offloading your skills to an AI machine. Now the AIs get so good that it could just be like the calculator. Like I don't want to use calculator cause I want to be doing math. Well, you're going to be behind everyone else. But I do get nervous about that.
- [14:04]
Peter Yang
I feel like we've had 30 years to learn stuff without AI, so at least old people like me still have some critical thinking. But like I, I worry about the next generation because they have AI access from day one.
- [14:14]
Host
To be a creator, you need to be the genesis of information. I really do believe. And so, and I think that's why you kind of went back to be like, hey, Kieran, you're like, I'm going to write a first draft. And it might be a messy first draft, but it's my first draft. And then I can work with AI from that.
- [14:28]
Peter Yang
Right.
- [14:28]
Kieran
It feels freeing as well. Like, I've. I've just forgotten how much I just love to write and not ask AI, do you think this is good? How would you make that better? I'm not saying AI isn't great as a writing assistant. I still would recommend it, but I don't know, there's something like pretty freeing about just writing words and not having to ask an AI assistant how it thinks about these things and would it improve them.
- [14:51]
Peter Yang
Like, the reason he's able to generate this stuff is I gave it just a bunch of really good examples of really good thumbnails and titles.
- [14:56]
Kieran
Right.
- [14:56]
Peter Yang
But sometimes it can go overboard. Once again, it's not like one shot. I have to give it feed feedback, be like, hey, you know, don't go too overboard and then go back and forth and apply my taste to it.
- [15:06]
Kieran
The thing I found that has worked really well for these kind of things is it first reads some sort of context file or like a couple of files in a context layer or like a foundational layer. So like an example for this would be you have your audience profile, and that audience profile has been built from what has worked and what hasn't worked. And so it first checks that and then that's how it's determining what are episode ideas and then how does it rank those ideas? So does it do anything like that?
- [15:31]
Peter Yang
Yeah, I have a couple of lines about, hey, here's my background and my audience really likes practical, no bullshit tutorials and just like, stuff they can implement right away. So, like, try to make it more practical, focused.
- [15:42]
Kieran
Your skills are as good as the context they have. And so the more information you can give them in terms of what outcome you're looking for, the more valuable they're going to be.
- [15:51]
Peter Yang
It's all about managing a context window at the end of the day. Yeah.
- [15:53]
Kieran
Yeah.
- [15:53]
Peter Yang
High quality context is what matters. Okay, so let's switch gears. Why don't you write a post based on your research of Kiran about how to use AI for marketing. Just write a draft post and put it in chat. Okay, cool. So I was going to write a draft and then I think what we'll do is we can run an eval on the draft.
- [16:11]
Kieran
Okay, very cool.
- [16:13]
Peter Yang
Yeah. So this is a draft and when I say, can you run the eval on this draft and also put the whole eval table with checkboxes in chat. And eval is like an evaluation, which is basically getting the AI to check his own work. You don't want the original agent that wrote the draft to run the eval because there's some bias there. If you ask me to review my own work, I'll say it looks great. So there's different types of evals. The most straightforward eval is just like pass or fail. There's other evals where, hey, you want to give it a score, like a four out of five, three out of five. But like, I'll tell you, AI is very bad at giving scores. If you're like, hey, give me an eval of how authentic this post is. 3 out of 5, 4 out of 5. It has no clue the difference between a 3 out of 5 and 4 out of 5, even if you give a bunch of instructions.
- [16:58]
Kieran
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [16:59]
Peter Yang
So I just recommend keeping your eval simple. Just do simple pass fail checks. The great thing about that is once you have these checks in place, if it fails any of these checks, then you can just ask it to keep editing a draft until it passes all the checks, right? So then it kind of. Kind of like self iterate and improve itself.
- [17:16]
Kieran
I guess you're like, the eval will be based upon what is the perfect podcast episode for your channel. How did you create the eval and how did you know what were the right things to look for?
- [17:26]
Peter Yang
You can get it to create an initial eval just based on your examples. Like, if it's like a content editing skill, you want to give it a bunch of examples of your best content, your best output, right? And then you can be like, hey, just like, can you just create an eval pass fail based on the examples? But I think the real way to create evals and make them good is to actually just run the scale through a bunch of manual processes, right? So let's say I have an edit newsletter skill and then I use it to edit one of my newsletter posts. And then through the conversation, it's like using too many EM dashes or like, you know, it's like writing too long. So then I'm like, okay, so based on this conversation, can you update the eval to include some things that we learned in this conversation? And then it'll be like, okay, I'm going to check maximum 2M patches. That's like a pass fail. And then you can either say, yes, that sounds good, or you can say, no, it doesn't. Not Sound good? So, for example, here's an eval that I have for my newsletter post. All my newsletter posts have a specific format. Does it open with dear subscribers? Is the hook line short enough to kind of like catch people's attention? Is the post free of EM dashes? Is it like, no slop? There's a bunch of other stuff. So it drafts the post and then it checks each of these things? Yeah. Yes. No. And if anything fails, it, like, gets the other agent to edit the post.
- [18:35]
Host
Again, I think this is a really important point and why so much that of work that people do with AI is not good? It's not just because a lot of people don't use evals. It's because if you look at what an eval is, it's actually somebody being very clear and committing to what they want and what is good. And I think so many people have a problem with that, right? It's like, oh, I don't know what I'm actually creating. So I'm just kind of all over the place where you are like, I know the formula. And because I know the formula, I can have a real complete system to evaluate whether I'm meeting that bar every single time or not.
- [19:12]
Peter Yang
You can pretty much build evals for anything, right? If you're trying to pull some stats from or do some online research, you can be like, hey, did you research at least 10 source sources? Yes. No. Did you research the recent interviews from YouTube in the last 30 days? Yeah, you can pretty much build evals for anything. Another lesson I think is the skill. And the eval that's tied to the skill is like a live working document, right? You know, I've been a PM, for example, for like over a decade. And like a lot of engineers ask me, hey, when's the PRD going to be done? When's the spec going to be done? And the spec is like never done because you're always learning something new. So just same thing with a skill and eval as you run through, like manual passes and so you use it. If you learn something new, just ask the AI to improve your skill in the eval, right? And double check its work. And then slowly but surely your skill get more and more effective over time.
- [20:00]
Kieran
I have done evals for that content system and one of the kind of gotchas is if the eval is trying to do any kind of judgment or of taste, then it primarily likes itself. Like, one of the things I applaud is I kind of tried to do this eval and I was like, here's what like a great writing sounds like and it would kind of map my audience profile. And like, interestingly, whenever I would update with like free form content that I would update the post with versus Claude updated it itself, it always preferred its own writing, which I kind of thought was funny. But you can kind of get in when it, when it's like, when it's doing eval of like judgment and taste, it prefers itself and you get into this kind of cycle of like, does it really understand judgment and taste? I think the human is better, but I think what's fascinating is your eval is more and the kind of formulaic way that you want to create that content. Like things that you can actually. It's not so much judgment and taste. It's like there's a formula and there's like core criteria in that formula and you're like evaluating to see if those things exist or not. And it's actually a pretty interesting thing for creators because if you're a business and your team are creating skills, I think it would be a pretty good service to actually have creators create your evals because creators would know what the criteria is for like a winning YouTube video for you. They could like figure out what the winning formula is for YouTube video or they could figure out what the winning formula is for like a LinkedIn post and they could actually write your eval for you and it would actually help up level your team pretty quickly.
- [21:26]
Peter Yang
Actually, there's a lot of ghostwriters out there. Maybe there's like a eval writer instead.
- [21:30]
Kieran
I also think AI Shaman is so dumb because AI is going to be intrinsic to how anything works. And so it's a tool. And doesn't matter if you use AI if the outcome is still like, good. Right? You judge something on the outcome, not how it was created. We are in the messy middle of like, AI hate a little bit. There's this like, shaman of anyone who uses AI in a creative way, which I think is pretty dumb.
- [21:55]
Host
I feel like, Kieran, that there is a lot of shaming because around this notion that like, oh, you just used AI and didn't do any work yourself, you know. And I think that's where a lot of the sentiment comes from. And I think one of the themes that we've talked about the last couple minutes is that if you're creating something, if you're working on something with AI, you kind of have a partner. And there are some things that AI is really good at, like evals and systems and things that humans are really good at like taste and judgment. And if you don't have the human side of it, then it is going to feel very average and, you know, shift to the median and not going to actually stand out and feel like AI slop. And so it's like, yeah, if you just outsource everything to AI, it's not going to be good. But if you work with AI, there should be no backlash against that. Right?
- [22:41]
Kieran
Well, the idea still matters. Like, yes, that's the big thing I think is there was a piece of content that went really viral on X where someone wrote a post that everyone quoted that it's like, wow, things are moving much further than I had expected. And here's all of the repercussions because of that. And it was quoted everywhere. And Opus wrote that post because I do so much creating with AI, I could like decipher the patterns. It didn't stop it being a great post. Right. And so I still think the idea is intrinsic to like having a good outcome.
- [23:11]
Peter Yang
It's kind of like a balance, like with anything else. For example, if creators like, they follow a bunch of top accounts and just set up like automatic AI replies to all the accounts, which is like all over XD stays. Right?
- [23:21]
Kieran
Yeah.
- [23:22]
Peter Yang
And like, I find that like super annoying. Like I have to block all these people. But, like, is it probably getting the results? It probably is, yeah.
- [23:28]
Kieran
Just coming back to your workflow, maybe as we run out this conversation, one of the things I probably would do now after watching you work through that, which is like, hey, get the workflow, build skills, do evals. And I still kind of come back to, okay, well, I would love to get started. I'm going to like get my codex set up and I'm going to start building some of these skills and automating some of my workflows. Okay, what are some of the things I do each and every day? I think if you just build a little ritual for yourself across one week where you went in to codex and had a conversation at the end of the day and told Codex about your day, I did this, I did that, this is the things I did. And then at the end of that week, it could take all of those transcripts and say, okay, based upon what I've heard, here are like the top things that I'm going to start to build skills for. And that would be an easy way for someone who is non technical but really wants to start doing this stuff, I think, to get started on, like what workflows to prioritize.
- [24:21]
Peter Yang
Yeah, I Totally agree. In fact, why don't we quickly see what Codex says about this? So it has memory of everything that we do. So I basically just asked it based on our conversations, what else can we streamline? So it says, like, there's too many evals. You should have one eval for everything. Turn podcast prep into social newsletter ideas. So, okay, so you do research about Kirin and then maybe you can turn that into a newsletter angle too. There's a skill for live demo safe modes, not sharing any financial information. Got to clean up stuff up.
- [24:53]
Kieran
Yeah.
- [24:54]
Peter Yang
So, yeah, it'll give you a bunch of ideas.
- [24:55]
Kieran
Yeah, I think it's pretty incredible when you really start to integrate it into all of your personal kind of data as well.
- [25:01]
Peter Yang
Yeah. I've integrated into my scale and I built like a fitness app to track workouts, so I asked a little bit of MCP for that too. So now I can tell me, like, hey, what's your body fat? And like, you made some progress on these lifts and so on and so forth. And yeah, it feels like a very helpful partner.
- [25:15]
Kieran
Yeah.
- [25:15]
Peter Yang
Yeah.
- [25:15]
Host
Peter, you're living in the future, my friend. And thank you for coming and sharing with our audience a little bit of what the future looks like. Because I think there are a lot of people who could honestly just even do one basic workflow that they hate every week with like a few skills in an eval that would be a life changing experience for them. Don't you think so, Kieran? Even if you just one thing.
- [25:35]
Kieran
Yeah. I think if you watch this, you have a conversation with Codex, you pick one workflow, you build a skill, you build the eval. That's an incredible way to get started on your journey of using AI to integrate into your work.
- [25:47]
Host
And if you pick the right thing, you're going to save yourself a lot of time.
- [25:50]
Kieran
Yeah.
- [25:51]
Peter Yang
Just remember, if this stuff is intimidating, just like when you say you build it, is it really you asking AI to build it? Ask the AI.
- [25:57]
Kieran
You are just a data giver, data
- [25:59]
Peter Yang
giver, taste giver, you know.
- [26:02]
Kieran
Yeah. AI is doing all the work. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it does it.
- [26:06]
Host
Yeah, it's both. But with all of that. Peter, thank you so much for joining us today. And we'll see everybody really soon on the next episode of Marketing against the Grain. Let me tell you about a show I love. Hosted by my friend, Ross Simmons. Each episode hosts an in depth analysis of some of the greatest creations and creators of all time. With deep dive conversations on the creative process that went into building companies, brands, stories and and more. If you like learning about history, learning about the creative process, you'll love this podcast. This podcast is perfect for anyone who wants to learn how to systematize their creativity but still be organized. Ross just did a fantastic episode about Reddit and AI distribution in the playbook that everyone is missing. Listen wherever you get your podcasts, this
- [26:57]
Peter Yang
data is wrong every freaking time. Have you heard of HubSpot? HubSpot is a CRM platform where everything is fully integrated.
- [27:05]
Kieran
Whoa.
- [27:06]
Peter Yang
I can see the client's whole history. Calls, support tickets, emails. And here's a task from three days ago I totally missed HubSpot Grow better.