Podcast Summary: "Everything You Need to Know About AEO in 2025"

Podcast: Marketing Against The Grain
Hosts: Kipp Bodnar (HubSpot CMO), Kieran Flanagan (SVP of Marketing, HubSpot)
Date: September 23, 2025

Overview

In this insightful episode, Kipp Bodnar and Kieran Flanagan break down the seismic shifts happening in digital marketing for 2025. They focus on the emergence of AI Engine Optimization (AEO) as SEO evolves, radical updates from Google (especially Gemini and agentic browsing in Chrome), the renaissance of personality-driven PR, and a massive, often unmet, demand for human-driven AI transformation consulting. The discussion is dynamic, candid, and peppered with their unfiltered hot takes and real-world frameworks.

Key Discussion Points

1. Google’s Gemini & The Paradigm Shift in Browsing

• Agentic browsing: With Google’s Gemini AI fully integrated into Chrome, users now interact directly with the browser, which can “see” and interpret the content of web pages and multiple tabs without the need to click or skim as much as before.

  • "Chrome is an incredible front door for the average user to start to use AI... it's a no brainer.” (Kieran, 01:24)

• Death of clicks and web pages: Conventional web browsing—clicking through links and pages—is being supplanted by AI-powered querying directly on webpages.

  • "We've already gone through the death of clicks... This is the death of web pages.” (Kieran, 01:24)

• Conversational browsing: Users can ask complex, natural-language queries (not just keywords), and Gemini helps synthesize, tabulate, and organize information from many pages into actionable data.

  • "[Gemini] can pull in all of the data across your tabs into a context window so you can open up a hundred pages... and just use Gemini to query those things." (Kieran, 06:14)

• Productivity features: Gemini remembers previously visited sites, helps find exact video snippets, and is extending to manage tasks like online shopping and scheduling within the browser.

  • “Gemini has memory, so it can recall any pages you’ve actually been on and you can easily bring them up. So again, an incredible productivity save.” (Kieran, 08:02)

2. The Strategic Shift from SEO to AEO

• SEO is not dead, but transforming: Traditional search optimization is giving way to AEO, which is about making content discoverable and quotable for AI engines rather than just humans.

  • “SEO... might be dead, but he is reborn as AEO Kieran.” (Kipp, 14:45)

• Less traffic, better leads: Expect fewer but higher-quality website visits because users are much better informed before they even land on a site.

  • “The visits to that website is going to go down, but the quality of the visits you do get is going to go up.” (Kipp, 10:45)

• The paradox—need for more pages, not less: You now need to create more, highly specific, question-and-answer formatted content to feed conversational AIs, even as traffic disperses.

  • "You're going to get less visits but need more pages." (Kipp, 18:32)
  • "One of the subtle differences is you have to create many, many more pages to be visible for all of the long tail of questions..." (Kieran, 17:07)

• Nuance and memory: The subtle differences in AEO like optimizing for memory (the AI’s recall of previous queries and context) offer a competitive edge.

  • “Unless you’re an idiot, you think memory is valuable to the search experience. And if you think memory is valuable... then AEO is a big and important thing.” (Kipp, 16:13)

• AEO tools and frameworks: HubSpot is developing tools like an AEO grader and sharing frameworks on how to craft content AI will cite.

  • “We just put together our early science guide to AI Engine optimization. And honestly, this is the playbook we're using internally.” (Kieran, 09:50)

3. The Resurgence and Evolution of PR

• Direct, personality-led communication: CEOs and founders are taking control of the brand narrative, moving away from agency-driven corp-speak to authentic, direct customer and investor engagement (e.g., Opendoor’s new CEO strategy).

  • “[CEO is] managing the perception of my company directly... I am going straight to the people.” (Kipp, 21:14)

• PR as content, not just media relations: Channels like podcasts, X (Twitter), Reddit, YouTube, and newsletters are now as (or more) powerful than traditional outlets for brand building.

  • "Now we're starting to see like founders, CEOs go direct... and just do real speak. That's how people want to be talked to." (Kieran, 22:24)

• Citation and trusted sources: For AEO, being referenced in trusted sources (traditional media, Reddit, LinkedIn) is still crucial as AIs draw on credible citations.

  • "A big part of that [AEO] is citations... and because of the way those platforms work... they look at these large trusted sources which you typically have to try to get visibility on through like PR." (Kieran, 23:27)

• PR professionals' evolving role: Instead of external agencies, forward-thinking companies are hiring internally or collaborating with leaders to do communications in a more integrated, impactful style.

  • “You're going to see this dramatically. What you're going to see is the firing of external PR agencies who have less valuable relationships and less business context. You're going to see CEOs going direct.” (Kipp, 26:11)

4. AI Transformation: The Next Service & Training Boom

• Massive demand for AI consulting: Companies eager to adopt AI workflows and apps don't know where to start and are hiring humans to help them modernize.

  • “We need more humans than ever in this AI era... they really want some real human handholding.” (Kipp, 27:47)

• Entrepreneurial opportunity: Smart, curious people are packaging frameworks from shows like this podcast into consulting services—earning serious money by helping organizations with AI adoption and workflow integration.

  • "If you have curiosity, if you're technical, if you know how to work with businesses, there's just unlimited opportunity in being able to integrate AI across those businesses." (Kieran, 31:25)

• Key skills in demand: Systems thinking, identifying what to automate, and enabling staff to use new AI-enhanced workflows.

  • “The hardest thing isn't just... building of the AI. You really need to be an incredible systems process thinker to figure out how to integrate AI across things that are actually useful for your business." (Kieran, 28:45)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the experience of agentic browsing:
  "This is just a great time to be alive. I have essentially a robot that is going to pull together all the relevant information on any topic I care about in the moment..."
  — Kipp (07:05)

• On AEO’s importance:
  “This is a brand new channel that has 800 million weekly active users... probably the best brand visibility channel or one of the best brand visibility channels you have access to.”
  — Kieran (17:07)

• On SEO/AEO paradox:
  "The ultimate mind bend of this AEO SEO shift is that you're going to get less visits but need more pages."
  — Kipp (18:32)

• The change in PR:
  "In the world we live in now, an AI world where an agent can get you any answer, if what you're saying isn't super interesting, nobody's going to care."
  — Kipp (27:18)

• On opportunity for consultants:
  "If you are a person who can help them go from 0 to 1 in their AI adoption, you can kind of print cash."
  — Kieran (31:25)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Google/Gemini update & death of clicks: 00:47 – 07:05
• Agentic browsing deep dive (Gemini & Chrome): 01:24 – 09:47
• SEO vs. AEO debate & frameworks: 10:45 – 18:32
• The paradox (less traffic, more pages): 18:32 – 20:01
• PR’s return & Opendoor’s playbook: 20:01 – 26:11
• Evolving role and future of PR: 26:11 – 27:43
• AI transformation services & consulting: 27:47 – 32:10
• Fun closing—cooking robot demo: 32:10 – 33:17

Takeaways for Marketers & Leaders

• Adapt your content for agent-based consumption. Focus on question-and-answer pages and long-tail queries to feed AI engines.
• Double down on unique, nuanced content—that’s the only way to become quotable by AI agents and trustworthy to both agents and humans.
• Invest in direct, authentic PR—founders’ voices and direct communication now build more trust and visibility than agency-run corp-speak.
• Capitalize on the AI transformation wave—help businesses integrate AI and you’ll be in high demand.
• Stay curious—the future is abundant for those ready to learn, adapt, and help others do the same.

For more details, listen to the full conversation or check the show notes for resources and tools mentioned.