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- [00:01]
A
Hey, everyone.
- [00:01]
B
Welcome to a special in person episode of Marketing against the Grain. I'm joined by the one and only Nicholas Holland who runs all of our AI products at HubSpot. And we are going to break down the state of the state for AI tools for marketers. We're here at Inbound. We've talked to a bunch of customers, we've launched a bunch of cool products. We want to share a bunch of updates with you.
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C
Here's something remarkable. In a world where fast sometimes isn't fast enough, businesses need tools that truly deliver. HubSpot has just released hundreds of updates at their spring spotlight that are transforming how companies operate. We're talking breeze agents that use AI to do in minutes what used to take days. Workspaces that bring everything you need into one view and marketing hub features that use AI to find your perfect audience. What previously took weeks now happens in seconds. This fundamentally changes everything. It's not just about moving fast, it's about moving fast in the right direction. Visit HubSpot.comspotlight and transform how your business grows starting today.
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B
Nick, welcome to the show.
- [01:18]
A
Thanks for having me, man. Excited.
- [01:19]
B
You are maybe more deep into AI for marketing and sales than any person on this planet right now.
- [01:26]
A
Yeah, it's a lot.
- [01:29]
B
Share for the folks watching the show today. Like, give us the highlights, where are the use cases? Where are the tools at right now in the fall of 2025?
- [01:38]
A
Yeah. If you talked to me a year ago when I first took over, as you guys know, I talked a lot about how everything was really neat but not necessary.
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B
I like that phrase.
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A
Boy, things change.
- [01:48]
B
Things are necessary now and no longer change.
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A
Things change. A couple things I think first when I talk to marketers now, what I tell them is that if at any point they're skeptical of AI, you know, I'm a firm believer AI has already passed what most of us know how to use. And what I mean by that is like, it's now more a limit of your creativity. It's a limit of do you know how to integrate it into your work. But yeah, the things that I'm seeing right now is like the best marketers, they have their AI assistant, optum plural now, and they're using those for like different jobs. So like the assistants are getting really good at different jobs. They've worked it into their kind of work streams. And then.
- [02:23]
B
And when you say assistant, I'm just clarifying for everybody watching, you're talking chatgpt Atropic. Our breeze assistant. Yeah, like the traditional kind of, hey, I'M chatting, asking a bunch of questions, kind of using it as a thought partner.
- [02:34]
A
Yeah. And even goes beyond that. So like, what I'm really fascinated by is you're getting to a point now and even like HubSpot's team, Claude is really good at certain things. Chad GPT is really good thought partner. You see some people who prefer deep research over there. And so when we started working with Breeze, one of the things that we had is like a thesis is that when you really start to use these, you'll want it to know you in a professional capacity. When you really start to use these, you'll want it to know the company that it works for. So context, you know, for everybody listening. I was talking to OpenAI as to, as I said, I think the word for 2026 is going to be context. You know, if I came to start working for you right now, you'd spend, you know, six to 12 weeks teaching me about HubSpot, you would teach me about how we do marketing, you would teach me all that stuff. And so I think context is going to be a really key part of.
- [03:17]
B
What AI needs taught all that same information.
- [03:19]
A
Totally. And I think you can teach it.
- [03:20]
B
Through interaction and that's what you're, what you're working on.
- [03:22]
A
That's what most people have been done teach through interaction like. And so we've, we've now added a bunch of like memories and all that stuff. But the other part that I think is really going to start coming about is that when you're working with these things, you're going to want to have it go deeper into your business. Data week with Breeze Assistant One of the things that our customers want is like if you ask about a company, you know, tell me about, you know, marketing against the grain. Yes, you've got data that it can search the web. Yes, it's got stuff maybe in your CRM, but a ton of us have files and you know, PDF docs, all that stuff. And that's going to be what I think happens next. Your brand style guides, all of your marketing playbook strategies. I think that's going to be really key. The other thing I think is like really cool is that each of these assistants and then, and even agents are getting like new techniques like you and I talked about, like Nano banana bananas.
- [04:07]
B
I will say that image and video models are definitely a theme of the moment right now. Google's Nano Banana image model, Google's VO2 or 3 video model, like they're ready for the prime time. They are ready to Create real marketing assets.
- [04:24]
A
Two stories that I thought were good. So there's a Photoshop Reddit where people say, hey, I need help. Will you do Photoshop on there? And I just watch them. And I think I shared this with you. Somebody was like, making out, and there was a old movie billboard, and they said, can you change the movie billboard to say a wedding date? And all these people are doing Photoshop. And I just put it in Nano Banana. And I was like, can you change the billboard to this date? And it killed it. 13 seconds. And then just on a lark, I was like, I took it over to VO3 and I was like, you know, I just wrote surprised me. I didn't even tell it what I wanted to. And so then they're making out, and then the lady puts her leg down, they stand up and smile at each other again, like, you know, 13 seconds. It was crazy. And so, you know, you see super bowl commercials coming out that are going to be all AI now. And I don't know if you saw that. Yeah, like, we're at a point right now. Like, if I was a marketer, the world is my oyster. I can do anything. And that's just with the assistance. That's not even when you get into, like, setting up agents that are running in the background.
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B
Yeah, we're talking about agents in a minute. But, like, I think the point you're making is, like, you're only limited by your own creativity and your own ambition.
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A
100, 100%. Like, you know, when performance marketing came out, you squeeze the life out of everything you were talking about.
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B
Well, I was a squeezer.
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A
I know, but it was also like, the way he was like, like, literally, it gives a battle of inches every year. It was like, how do you get a.03% point, like, now, man? I mean, dude, you. You can come up with anything. It's.
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B
You could tell me you could 10x the conversion rate for something right now, and I would believe you.
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A
Oh, my God. Right?
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B
Like, if I. I believe. I would literally believe anything was possible with marketing right now. Just because it feels like the whole constraints and systems, there's so much that you can do have changed. I guess before we move on to the agent stuff, everything kind of close us out. If you were a marketer, just me, personal curious, and you're buying what we're selling, that it's your own ambition, your own creativity is your limiting factor. Like, what would you do about that? Like, how would you try to, like, push the bounds of your creativity and your ambitions? Because it's something I've been thinking about.
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A
I'll tell you something I do. This is crazy. I'll tell you. This is super weird. So I take my kids to. I take my kids to sports events.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And one of the things I do is I will take a picture of something. I will put it in chat, GPT or Breeze to. To basically reverse engineer. I say, how would you describe this image? And I'm learning how basically to describe these images in media. And then I will go basically try to recreate it in an image model and see how far off it is. And the reason why that is is because I told somebody the story the other day. If my daughter, who's 11, gave a speech, if I gave a speech, and then you took somebody who is a known orator, like Obama, and you gave a speech, it looks like we're all giving a speech. But the difference between those three is night and day, the ability for you to get as much as you can out of these models via creativity. You have to work on it. And so the thing is, now I put myself on like a diet where I try my best to recreate images. I try to create videos. Now that's really cool. The other thing I'll tell you right now is interesting is like, now lately I've been thinking about, like a book again. How would you basically construct. If you were trying to be an AI leader and you were trying to construct a book, how would you do it? And you start to go through a process of, like, you would go through an idea place, you would then go through an outline, you would then fractal it out. Like, there's just. When you start to think about the. The techniques I want to work out my AI muscles, it really changes the way you think. And then that expands your horizon.
- [07:34]
B
So that's 50% of it. Right. Which is like, you then understand how things work, so then you understand what's possible. And that's pretty amazing. Then how do you push what's possible? Like, how do you go? Like. I think the hardest thing is people put false limits on their, like, thinking and the creativity of, like, how to apply this stuff.
- [07:51]
A
It's interesting. There's a debate here. Yeah, I'll tell you there's a debate because right now, if AI is already better than what most of us can do, there's two way to think about it. If I go to the grocery store and Gordon Ramsay goes to the grocery store. Same ingredients, two different meals. So there's two parts that are happening right now. There are new horizons that are coming out, like Nano Banana's net new capability, Veo's net new capability. Even the avatar stuff is still net new capability. So as a marketer, you can spend all your time on the innovation curve, But I do think there's a lot of R to be done now in the orchestration layer, which is the things that we have. How do you combine those in different ways? There's a technique that we do. Because I'm also in product, there's a technique we can do too, where I will say, sometimes it's also nice to basically go back to like, what is the problem? And I have now started to ask my teams convince me that AI can't do that again. Because what it does is it changes your mental thinking a bit. And honestly, that's how we ended up with all the context stuff. We were building product. A lot of our blog posts, Creator land, it was all, it sucked. And I was like, why does this suck? And they were like, well, the prompt is good and I'm looking at it. And like you spend all your time prompting. You're like, well, the prompt is pretty good. What is going on here? But the reality is it didn't have all the context. That's why we ended up building out all the context layer. That's why I go back to. If you just started with the premise of this isn't good enough, where is AI falling down? You start to become a master of all those Lego blocks and that's where you start to create some really bad stuff.
- [09:15]
B
Yes. Then you could just build things that you didn't realize are possible before. I agree.
- [09:18]
A
You see what I'm saying? Like, you wouldn't, you wouldn't invent the new iPhone unless you went to engineering school and, you know, design.
- [09:23]
B
You understood.
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A
Yes.
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B
User experience, hardware, software, you have a lot of components.
- [09:28]
A
That's figure. That's right.
- [09:29]
B
I love that. Okay. One of things we were talking about right before we started was we're seeing a rise of agents on websites. We have a customer agent product that people use on website. The kind of. The initial use case for that was like for customers to go to a website and get their support questions answered. But you've been talking to a bunch of people who are using that for marketing use cases.
- [09:51]
A
That's right.
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B
And I'd love for you to break down and share what you're learning there, because I think we're getting to a point where every marketer is going to want an agent on their website.
- [09:59]
A
Totally more than just website It'll be every. It'll be every tier one interaction. But yeah, so roll back the clock. Whenever HubSpot first came out with chat, we put it in sales hub and the thought was, okay, people when they want to chat, will want to buy something. And that turned out to be a.
- [10:13]
B
Terrible mistake, terrible assumption.
- [10:15]
A
So then we were like, okay, it must be support. But for the last few years, I would always talk to the customers and many of them would still basically say, this is here to answer marketing questions. So when we came out with customer agent and it did tier one support, I was asking some of these. I was like, what happens if somebody wants to answer? Ask something that's not, hey, something's broken, I'm unhappy. And they were like, yeah, I would love that. So then we started watching the conversations. It was wild watching customers. They would ask a support issue and maybe it's because they didn't buy the right thing. Think about it. I come to HubSpot, they're like, own sales hub. And I'm like, hey, you know, why can't I go, you know, send an email off? And it's like, because you didn't have this product. So is that a support issue? Is that a sales issue? Really hard to know, right?
- [10:56]
B
It's hard to know anybody to know.
- [10:58]
A
So a lot of our customers said we wanted to answer kind of pre sales questions. And so we opened it up. So now it's not the knowledge base. Now it can consume websites, all sorts of material. And we started seeing the number of marketers add this start to grow. And so I was like, this is fascinating. Let me call them up. And so, like, one recently I just had, they said, listen, we're watching our customers and they're coming and they're asking tons of like, they're doing their research.
- [11:19]
B
Yeah.
- [11:20]
A
And it's just less effort than clicking around in our navigation. And he said, I don't have any data to back it up. He said, but I believe in my heart of hearts that they would have left and gone and got the answers from a competitor.
- [11:31]
B
Yeah, I think that's what we're getting at. It's like one of the things that's been a theme of Inbound this week is like, getting visits to your website's harder. So every marketer is going to want to do everything possible to keep the visits they do get there and have that engagement high. And the other thing we're talking about is just like, it's easier and it's much lower commitment. There are no stupid questions to an agent.
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A
Right.
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B
I can ask the dumbest thing.
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A
That's right.
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Like, why is this cost so much? Or how did this work for me? Or I don't even understand what this acronym is. Explain it to me. And you wouldn't do that to a real person. A lot of people would because they'd be afraid of looking stupid or pressure.
- [12:07]
A
Like, I mean, honestly, like, yeah, we talk about, like, marketers. We call it a funnel for a reason. Everything's like, driving, you know, stuff.
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B
Right?
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A
So, like, you know, when you guys, when y' all were doing the marketing experiments for yourself and you guys had the avatar, talking to a real human was like four minutes or less. And talking to the avatar was like eight minutes.
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Yeah, we just for context, we had like an AI avatar that was like video or text on the site, and you could just either talk or text or, you know, or type with a. Yeah, over eight minutes of engagement time.
- [12:35]
A
And I was like, why is that? And I first I started think. I was like, is it slow? I started thinking, like, is it delayed answers? But now it's like, what it comes down to, it's like, super clear. It's high pressure. If I'm a rep and I answer the phone, I mean, I'm measuring how many meetings I book. So when you're talking to me, I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, Kip, what a great question. Here's the answer. Would you like to book a meeting? That's pressure. And I think that in a world where we can better serve our audience, especially where, like, you don't have to have a human on there, like, there's a lot of cool marketing techniques that are going to happen there as well.
- [13:03]
B
I completely agree.
- [13:06]
C
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- [13:33]
A
The other thing that we just pulled off that I think is neat is so we've now made it so that customer agent can handle pre sales. I think a lot of marketers are going to want to handle that. We've made it so it can identify a lead, does all the qualification stuff. You get to teach it how to qualify. But if they Want to. They can route to a rep, it can book on a rep's calendar. But if they don't want to, then what happens now is we've made it so that the marketer then can pass that off to another agent, the prospecting agent. And so what happens is, you know, you talk to it, you basically say, no, I don't want to meet with anybody right now. It takes all of that conversation, gives it over to the prospecting agent who goes and does more research on your company and then it reaches out and says, you know, hey, I, I'm, you know, it depends on which rep you assign to. But hey, I'm Nicholas. I saw you. You know, we're asking questions. Let me know if you have any stuff. Hey, did you see we just did this? It's pretty cool. Like, the fact that agents are handing off to agents is going to be wild.
- [14:21]
B
Yeah. First of all, agents to agents who I think will probably be a big theme of 2026. Like, that's a like forward looking aspect here just now starting in the fall, but next year will be a big thing. The follow up to that is like you're kind of letting the dirty little secret out that in the AI world, marketing is eating more of the sales process, man.
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A
No doubt.
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B
Like a marketer is just going to have much more influence over the sales process and ownership over the sales process than they did a year ago.
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A
Absolutely.
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B
Do you agree with that?
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A
Yeah. And I, and I don't think the salespeople honestly care.
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B
No, I think it's the stuff the salespeople don't want to do.
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A
Can you imagine right now you go to our sales team and you say, hey, real quick, all your AES, I'm going to go ahead and get them flush with meetings and so you can hit your quota. They'd be like, yes, well.
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B
And you're doing that by doing all the stuff that they don't want to do. It's like, oh, Mr. Mrs. Sales Reps, you are out on vacation and I can have an agent handle the meeting booking for you instead of having your manager totally, like an hour a night try to play catch up. Like, that is a game changer.
- [15:21]
A
Well, also, and like an SDR role is a tough role, you know, an SDR role, it's like going to boot camp to try to get into like a job, you know, it's like, all right, man, we're going to put you on the phones for a year. If you make it, you might get you a sales job. Like, if the marketing team could handle that level of scale. I think that would also be amazing as well. So I'm pretty excited, man. Like, there's a white space right now. That's the biggest thing that you and I have talked about. Two years ago, no white space.
- [15:46]
B
No, it was super.
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A
I mean, it was hard. It was hard. There's a lot of white space right now.
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B
Yeah. And it goes back to what we started the conversation with. It's like, you're really only limited by your creativity and your ambition because it's not just with AI, it's with anything. Just, like, where you even decide to focus and play with AI, there's just way more opportunities. Like, totally. We've seen that in the themes of this week, like the rise of AEO to disrupt traditional search engines, the rise of influencers. Like, so many new channels, so many new ways to think about marketing. All these AI tools that make video images, participating on Insta, YouTube, all of these channels, much more cost effective. Yep. It's wild. What's possible?
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A
Unbelievable.
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B
Like, we're running an experiment where we're doing traditional produced video ads and then AI video ads and, like, the avenue ads are gonna do well.
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A
Listen, y' all did another experiment that I think is interesting. The other thing I think is fascinating, too, is, like, we're having generational changes right now. So another thing, if I was a marketer, I'd be watching how you did social a while back is different. You know, we see that with ours. We're doing more slang. You're doing more, like, kind of irreverence. Yeah. Less professional, more personal. I think the thing that's going to happen is that right now, going back to, like, the AI generated videos, I think people will know. And as long as you're not trying to hide the lead, like, I think that there's art to that as well. And I think there's going to be a world where, like, being able to get the most out of these systems is going to end up being like, it's going to be a new genre is all I'm saying. Like, people are going to basically look at this and be like, that's cool.
- [17:23]
C
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- [18:04]
B
Well, the thing I would posit to everybody watching is the last 15 years there was this like market inefficiency where there was not enough information in the world. And so people and businesses needed to write a lot of text y and create more information. And now LLMs have largely fixed that. That market efficiency is still true with video. There's still way less video about things that people care about totally than people want. And as AI makes it much easier to create those videos, you're going to see a landslide of video over the next five years.
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A
I'll tell you another B2B thing I think is going to change. Vast majority of B2B companies, when I talked to them in the past would quickly bristle that they're not entertaining.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I would say, okay, they're like we do informational videos. And it was almost like B2C did entertaining, B2B didn't. I think that's also going to go away. Like I think that while you're on social, I think entertainment is going to be another engagement channel on social. So you can be informational, you can be on YouTube and have your how to's but if you can find a way to entertain, it's going to be awesome. And so if you think about the world of entertainment we watch now, some people like horror, some people like drama, some people like mystery. I think it's going to be that varied. I think it's going to be that varied.
- [19:14]
B
I think you're not wrong in that like there will be some B2B companies doing like crazy entertaining things.
- [19:21]
A
Totally. Like what's the guy that works for us? Max?
- [19:24]
B
Oh yeah, it's.
- [19:26]
A
He doesn't work for us anyway. He's brilliant. Like what do you would do like HubSpot how to videos? That's incredible.
- [19:32]
B
Yeah. Like you could see like a B2B soap opera opera. You could see like a B2B horror series.
- [19:37]
A
Did you see the, the other thing? Did you see the commercial where they like were making fun of all the B2B software?
- [19:42]
B
I did. I love.
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A
That was freaking awesome. They catch every logo and it had like its cool little phrase but that's.
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B
Just going to be commonplace.
- [19:49]
A
Yeah.
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B
I would say the last thing to close out that we don't talk enough about this is we're giving you the expert stuff. Right now is that AI makes the cost of creating so low and so scalable for information that you can now do things at a scale you'd never be able to. Like, if you were a company and you had like 100 target accounts, like you say you're an enterprise company, this.
- [20:10]
A
Is where I would be putting my.
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B
You could use AI to basically do like an acquired level podcast.
- [20:16]
A
Yes.
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B
It's deeply researched, three hours long, perfectly like produced for each of those hundred companies.
- [20:24]
A
That's right.
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B
And you could do that in months.
- [20:26]
A
That's right. This, it's. And people don't get this. Like some of our product team, when I talk about it, they're like, you know, people don't need another podcast. There's two problems with this. First, I said, and I'll say this to listeners, if you think about everything and the way the game is played right now, remember, the rules are changing. So in a world where everybody just goes to Spotify or Apple Music, they pick one of the five number ones and they listen to that every day. You're right. Very hard to knock off one of those. That is not the way I'd be doing it right now. The way I would be doing it right now is like, watch this. So take what you just said. 100 accounts. I've done a very deep, well researched podcast. I put it all together. Then you basically, you can now have a rep reach out and say, hey, Kip man, I know we talked about X, Y and Z. I think this is really worth your listen.
- [21:12]
B
Yeah.
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A
Now.
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B
And by the way, every company in that category would be obsessed with that podcast. All their competitors. Totally everything.
- [21:18]
A
But I'm even saying that didn't even have to scale. What does it look like whenever podcast level quality becomes product marketing material.
- [21:26]
B
That's the point. That's the point. That is the point I'm trying to make. I think what you and I are trying to leave to the listeners is the rules are changing.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And there's new fields to play on. And you win the game by making the rules up.
- [21:38]
A
Totally.
- [21:38]
B
And so create a new game. Make your own rules. And we're trying to give some practical examples of how to do that. I think the big takeaway from being at the event here is that the technology has caught up with the hype. There's a lot more that is possible to do.
- [21:52]
A
We're at an inflection point now.
- [21:53]
B
Yes.
- [21:53]
A
Where it's. It's no longer the just neat now. There are parts that are necessary. We're at a point Today where it's not six finger monstrosities now, it's basically better than any photographer that you can go get. And we're at a point right now where if you have creativity, it's beyond like what most marketers have flexed in a while. Like, you know, this is a brand new paradigm and it's a game where if people don't want to get out on the pitch and practice, there are going to be some losers.
- [22:17]
B
They are. And your point is the people who are going to be left behind are going to be the biggest losers.
- [22:22]
A
And that's why I say, I know it sounds super silly, but I literally was just this weekend I saw a very complex thing at a gymnasium and I was like, how'd they make that? So I basically do that and I'm. You just have to work on these muscles and it helps you understand all sorts of things.
- [22:35]
B
I think now to kind of close out, like, I think you could literally just with AI yourself, find the best hundred ads in the whole world.
- [22:43]
A
Now. That's right. That is good.
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B
And reverse engineer. That's practice the whole thought process between the best hundred ads in the world and at the end of that, you're probably a better creative.
- [22:53]
A
Yes.
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B
Than like 99% of people.
- [22:55]
A
That's what I was trying to say. Because the other thing is incredible. So I would love to be like their mentor because they go, I couldn't recreate that. I'd say, why? And they'd say, well, the AI be like, no, I don't know, let's talk a little minute. You know, because a lot of they're like, why don't have their brand or style guide. That would be an example of missing context.
- [23:11]
B
Yes.
- [23:12]
A
And you could go figure that out. There's a whole path to go figure that out. You know, they're like, I don't have those kind of fonts or type of. I'm like, there's a whole way you could learn to just talk in.
- [23:19]
B
Go learn about high typography and then I will make you a custom type.
- [23:23]
A
That's exactly right. You know, over the course of a.
- [23:26]
B
Year you could become a world class creative.
- [23:28]
A
That's right. I'll tell you the last thing the story. Like the most kind of poignant thing that I love was my kid was trying to start a little idea. And so I'm practicing all the time. So we're in the car. I use the low latency voice model. I'm talking to Gemini with them.
- [23:42]
B
Yep.
- [23:43]
A
And we're talking about business ideas and I can just see he doesn't even know how to talk through the ideas. That's muscles.
- [23:49]
B
Yeah.
- [23:49]
A
So we're working through that, and then we get an idea where he's going to coach little kids. He's a freshman. So I said, he'll coach little kids in football. So he was like, what do I do next? And so then I said, what do you think you do? And so now it helps make a plan. And so then he was like, well, what do I do? And I was like, so you learn how to break it down, and then you go deeper and deeper and deeper. And so then it finally got to a point where he was like, we have to make creative. And he was trying his best to use Gemini's free model, and it was driving him nuts. And this was a very clear moment in time where I have the expensive paid versions, he has the free. He believes that it sucks.
- [24:19]
B
Yes.
- [24:20]
A
And until he sees that the new waves are going to be better, that's the cap of his limitation. So I showed him that you can now go make this stuff. And I made it. It's awesome. We got it on Facebook. He's got him a little class going now, like, so it's like, that's like an example where you just go through this, and it wasn't anything other than you've just got to grind out those muscles over and over and over again. So that's what I would tell everybody to do, is like, this is the time to have a growth mindset and a learner mindset.
- [24:43]
B
I love that. That is the perfect note to end on. Thank you all for watching. This is a really exciting time to be in marketing, to be in AI. You're seeing agents on websites be really effective. You're seeing the assistants get really good. You're seeing the creative tools really kind of have endless possibilities. So great conversation. Thanks for joining us, Nick. We'll see you next time on Market against the Grain.
- [25:04]
A
Appreciate it. Cheers, Sam.