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Marketing Made Simple
#177: Why “Both-And” Thinking is the Future of Leadership
00:35:42
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- [00:04]
StoryBrand Host
Chances are, if you're listening to this podcast right now, you're a freelance marketer, an agency owner or a consultant who's passionate about helping businesses grow. Well, if that's you, I've got some exciting news. Right now is your chance to take things to the next level by becoming a storybrand Certified guy. Imagine having the tools, the training, and the title that sets you apart in the marketing world. As a storybrand Certified Guide, you'll be fully equipped to help businesses clarify their message, connect with their customers customers and skyrocket their sales. Plus, you'll be part of an exclusive community of top tier marketing professionals, sharing insider tips, opportunities and even referrals. But do not wait to apply because the deadline for the December training is just around the corner. So go to storybrand.com guide to apply now and take that first step toward becoming the Go to Marketer expert. In your field.
- [01:09]
Tim Arnold
In life, in work, in our relationships, you face different types of dilemmas and challenges and problems. Some of them are literally problems to solve. You pick the right answer, you walk away. There's other scenarios where it's not right and wrong, it's kind of right and right, but you can still pick one. Well, there's this third level of challenge, and I'd even call it an opportunity where you actually have to have both over time to get the upside of either one.
- [01:49]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Hello, hero maker. Welcome to the Marketing Made simple podcast, powered by StoryBrand and brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, where we believe your marketing should be easy and it should work. I'm your host, Dr. J.J. peterson, and I am joined by my co host, April, April Sunshine Hawkins. Hi, April.
- [02:05]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Well, hello JJ and hello, hero maker.
- [02:08]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
All right, April, question for you.
- [02:11]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Okay, I'm ready.
- [02:11]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Beach or mountains? No, because what you should have said is the Oregon coast. That involves both.
- [02:20]
StoryBrand Host
Oh.
- [02:20]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Because that's really. You don't have to choose that way.
- [02:23]
April Sunshine Hawkins
But that's not how you set up the question.
- [02:26]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
That's what you thought. Okay, ready? Ok. City or country?
- [02:31]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Tuscany. I don't know how this game works. I'm trying really hard though.
- [02:39]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
I mean, yeah, now. Now you want both.
- [02:41]
April Sunshine Hawkins
I'm like, AI, I'm learning. I'm learning right now. Yeah.
- [02:44]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
But the way it started was even when I now I now granted, I presented it as only two options when we started here was either beach or mountains. And whenever something like that happens, we have to go, oh, I have to pick one. Even though I like both. And there's benefits to. To both. I personally like if you're saying, you know, I had to choose or I'm going to die.
- [03:08]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Oh, wow. Okay, the stage start by.
- [03:11]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
I would choose beach, but I love the mountains. Like, I love going to a cabin, and I love putting on a jacket and walking through the woods almost just as much as I love putting on a tank top and shorts and walking at the beach. And so often in life, we're presented with what feels like these either or options, like, in all things, that our creativity doesn't allow for us to kind of go beyond that because we think that everything is presented to us really in a dichotomy, like you have to choose one or the other. But what's interesting is I don't think life always has to be that way. Now, sometimes it is. You know, we're coming up on a political election, and it.
- [03:54]
April Sunshine Hawkins
We are.
- [03:55]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Yeah. Wait, I know you might have heard a word or two about that. And it's going to be an either or situation a lot of times. But I think too often whenever we step into situations, we view it as, I have only two choices in any given situation. And you and I have learned, especially from a dear friend of ours, that that's not always the case.
- [04:19]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Absolutely. And that dear friend of ours, his name is Tim Arnold. We, of course, worked with him at storybrand. He was one of our storybrand facilitators that would go out and do private workshops because he found power, so much power in this. But what he's done recently is built this incredible business on leadership and how to really embrace the benefits of both and thinking.
- [04:48]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Yeah. Which is why we wanted to bring him on during the series. Right. We're in this series where we're really trying to approach the marketer as a whole person, because we know that you are a whole person. And as a marketer, it's not just about managing the number of leads you're getting and the number of sales you're getting, but actually how to balance life, balance thinking, balance a team, and really, in this case, lead yourself and others in the way that you're thinking about these moments where a lot of times we feel like we have to sacrifice one thing for another, when in reality, maybe if we were a little bit more creative and expanded our thinking, we might be able to get the best of both worlds.
- [05:28]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Absolutely. And we have Tim live with us right now, and so we can talk to him about these polarizing things that create a lot of tension, not only on teams, but internally. I have a lot, Tim. I'm just going to go straight to you. And I'm going to talk about my personal life real quick. Okay.
- [05:49]
Tim Arnold
So.
- [05:49]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Because I need your help.
- [05:51]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Therapy session, which is perfect, obviously do.
- [05:54]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Because even within my own self, I can have a part of me that is really wanting to get in there and work and work and work and work and work and work and work. And then there's another part of me that's like, hey, remember that burnout that we had? Maybe you shouldn't take on that new job. Maybe you, I, I should squash you to the ground and you shouldn't have to do any of that work. And then I just have these parts inside of me that are also at war because they're polarized and it's causes me a lot of anxiety. And so that happens within me, myself. What can I do about this, Tim? How can I, how can I talk to these parts?
- [06:40]
Tim Arnold
I love that you're getting personal right away. We're going to go there. I will say, first of all, so great to be in this conversation and to be with the two of you. This is super exciting for me. April, we are going to answer that question. Before we do, I'm going to just back up for. For the listeners to say, I'm going to suggest that in life, in work, in our relationships, you face different types of dilemmas and challenges and problems. Some of them are literally problems to solve, which means there's an answer. You pick the right answer, you walk away. Now, this is great if it's a situation where there's one right answer and everything else is wrong, you know, math equations, for example. Awesome. Get the right answer, you're done. There's other scenarios, kind of like JJ's test at the beginning, where it's, you know, city or country, you know, beach or mountain, where it's not right and wrong, it's kind of right and right. But you can still pick one and you can still say, you know what, all sounds good, but I'm still picking this. Well, there's this third level of challenge, and I'd even call it an opportunity where it's actually even beyond that, where you actually have to have both over time to get the upside of either one. I'll give you an example. Today, 22,000 times, you will breathe, and every single breath, you will be managing the tension between inhaling and exhaling. And you can't choose. You can't wake up and say it's an inhale day or an exhale day. Because what's true of what I call tensions to manage is if you pick One side and you neglect the other, the very value you set out to achieve, you'll lose. So, April, all that coming back to the question you asked, what I'm hearing you say is you like to kind of go, go, go and seize opportunities and embrace change. If that's inhale, there's an exhale side, which is also being really comfortable and solid with what is and deciding that I'm going to embrace stability. And I would suggest, April, that as much as you embrace innovation and new things and change, if you don't learn to manage that intention with stability, change actually isn't going to show up well in your life. And it's not about finding this utopian balance where, you know, if I can just find this sweet spot, everything's going to work out. It changes in our lives all the time. How I manage change and stability right now looks different than how I managed it a year ago. But I do know that I show up well when as a, As a leader, as a professional, as a team member, I embrace innovation and change and new ideas and pretty clear that there's certain things that aren't changing and there's certain things that are working really well, and we're going to stick with those things. And there's lots of those tensions that I think, going back to jj, your comment around the whole person, there's a few. You know, I feel like we have to, you know, as leaders, be super optimistic. We have to help our clients and our staff realize that, you know, the future is bright and we're going to get there. At the same time, we have to be realistic. Because if it's all optimism and no realism, our head's in the cloud and we're setting ourselves up for failure. At the same time, if I'm all realism all the time and no optimism, no one wants to be around me and I'm pretty right? So what I have to find is what's the healthy tension? For me to live in a way and lead in a way that actually has high levels of optimism and realism. I know personally, for me to show up well as a leader, as a dad, as a husband, as a friend, on one side, I need to have high expectations, expectations on myself. I push myself hard. I set my goals, high expectations on the people that I care about. I've also learned, however, that expectations without grace lead to resentment and lead to disappointment. You know, I've learned that as much, in some ways, the higher the expectations, the higher the level of grace with myself, with others. And when I can lead in a way that doesn't kind of meet in the middle of like a watered down version, but says, no, I'm someone who has high expectations and high grace. I show up well, but also I feel like I'm able to help bring out the best in other people. So, April, that's a long answer for your pretty straightforward question, but is that making sense?
- [11:04]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Absolutely. And you know, you've named some of these tensions for us and let's, let's back up a little bit even more. You really have identified for leaders out there 6 really main tensions that we have to encounter anytime we're making these kind of decisions, leading a company. And I'd love you've kind of hit on some of them there, but I'd love for you to just kind of list them for us of what are those main tensions that you really work with? I mean, you work with companies and leaders and individuals all over the world on this stuff. I mean, I've seen you work with companies in India and in Canada and all over the US and you help them kind of walk through these tensions instead of kind of positioning them as either or options that we often have to. We feel like we have to make them. And you call them tensions. How do you manage these tensions? So there's really six core ones that you have identified. Could you name those six core ones for us and then we'll do a little bit of a deep dive on a couple of them.
- [12:04]
Tim Arnold
Sure. And what I would encourage you to do and everyone listening is as I walk through them, my hunch is that they'll all make sense because I've worked with leaders from weapons inspectors in the United nations to small solopreneur startups. So. And everyone I've worked with says, oh yeah, I deal with that all the time. So I expect that at the same time, I would have you think about out of the six, what's the one right now that if I could just understand that a bit more, if I could just learn a few tips and tricks to manage that a little bit more effectively, I feel like I'd show up pretty well in the season ahead. So be thinking about what one kind of jumps at you the most. The first one I actually mentioned already, I need to be someone who's high optimism, high realism. I've got to be able to kind of be positive and see the future's bright and face the cold hard facts of reality simultaneously. The second tension that I think is unavoidable, I mentioned briefly with April situation, this is one that's key for me because I love change. If it was up to me, I would have my website recreated every month. I just love innovating and changing and it's served me well. But I've also learned that I've got to really lean into stability and I've got to be clear on the things about my life and my friendships and my business that aren't changing. So how do we manage change and stability? The third one is for most organizations, I use the language of profit and purpose. You know, I want to ultimately, and if you're a nonprofit, you can maybe think of mission and margin. You know, the margin or the profit side is I want the bottom line to look good. I want to actually be able to grow and serve more people and hire more people. That matters. And at the same time, it's not just about dollars and cents. You know, Simon Sinek talks about finding your why and we want to know why is it that we're putting all this energy into what we're doing? What's the impact? So profit and purpose, the fourth one I mentioned briefly, it's this idea of having high expectations and high level of grace. If grace doesn't work for you, you could think of the words high expectations and high acceptance. You know, not everything's perfect and that's okay. The fifth is my hunches. There's a few people listening that probably need to hear this. I mean, here's the reality. Leadership is an others oriented job. And that doesn't just mean leading people. If I and my organization, I'm trying to move things forward. It's about others. My team, my clients. But if all I do all the time is focus on others and I neglect myself and what I need, I don't show up well for anybody. Now, for most folks listening, it's not going to be 50, 50. Most of you will spend more time in this focusing on others, which means you have to be more focused than ever to carve out what you need to give yourself kind of that care to show up. Well, so self and others is the fifth and then the six is interesting because I use the language Confidence and humility. Leadership requires confidence. At the end of the day, whether you're leading your team or your clients, you're the person who's saying, hey, I believe we should go in this direction. You can trust me, you can trust our process. But confidence without humility is cockiness or arrogance. Humility doesn't assume we're wrong. It just assumes we're always learning. Humility is about A growth mindset. And, you know, I can think of the best leaders I've ever worked for and with. And they weren't a little bit confident and a little bit humble. They were actually high on both levels. So those are the six. And as I said, I don't care who you are or where you are, I bet if you're trying to move things forward, you will be managing those tensions. And I guess a bit of the bad news is that you're not going to solve them. You know, if you invited me back a year from now, we'd talk about the list. Everyone would still be managing them. These aren't problems to solve, but there's ways that by understanding them and leaning into them, we can actually leverage them so they're like breathing. They actually work for us and we don't have to think about it 20,000 times a day. We just found ways to manage them.
- [16:08]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Well, it makes total sense that I might even have two parts inside of me that are a little bit at war with each other because they are going, hey, remember that burnout thing that happened to us? We don't want that to happen ever again. And so they're protecting me by saying, let's keep everything really stable. Like, there's one part that's in that stability realm. And this part is so glad to hear you, like, affirm there are positive things about the stability. And then the other part of me that wants some change and gets a charge from actually completing tasks and doing new work and being excited about work, it is so glad that its stance is also validated. And so thank you for just providing words and validation to the psyche. That's really what's going on internally within me, but also internally with teams. Jj, where have you seen this?
- [17:08]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
I think it's so important because I think when you get in that binary thinking, everybody suffers because of it. Your business suffers, you suffer, your team suffers. Because you're right. The idea is there are moments where you do have to make a right or wrong decision. Decision. You know, sometimes when it comes to ethics or just pure numbers, but like you said, if a math problem. But most of the time you're choosing between two good options or one that might be a slight bit better. And so you really have to balance that.
- [17:41]
StoryBrand Host
Created hosted by John Yu Shai is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Created gives an inside look at how to build a business as a creator, improve your creative process and stay ahead of the latest content trends. John's an ex YouTube and Instagram employee and every episode he breaks down the creator economy with guests like Logan Paul, Paris Hilton, George Lopez and more. In fact, in a recent episode titled Meet YouTube's Richest 12 Year Old Ryan's World, he sits down and talks with Ryan, Kaji and his parents exploring how they built a billion dollar empire that started with simple toy reviews on YouTube. I mean this episode was great because it was almost like a grown up toy review because Ryan's parents go into how they quit their jobs, scaled the brand and even launched a movie. So if you are looking for insights on entrepreneurship and creating a powerhouse business, go check out that episode and go check out created. You can listen to it and follow the show wherever you get your podcast.
- [18:41]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Foreign.
- [18:48]
StoryBrand Host
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- [19:30]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
And now back to the show. Tim, I'd love for you to dive into one a little bit more specific, the one that you mentioned where you kind of had to balance that profit and purpose side of things. Cause I think even especially kind of in the marketing world a lot of times we're trying to figure out like how do we keep margin in our profit. So like for instance, how often do we give in the marketing world away value versus charge for that value? And it's kind of like, well, if we give it away for free, nobody's gonna pay us. And we getting into those kind of thinking. But then we also know we want to help our customers or when it comes to adding a little bit of extra value to your products that you're delivering, like giving away a gift for free or some extra time while in the same time trying to go. But we have to make money here and I would love for you say specifically to speak into that tension a little bit for people that are that have to often balance those two things of profit and purpose in marketing and in their products and services that they offer.
- [20:36]
Tim Arnold
It's a great question because profit and purpose is something that doesn't manage itself by chance, it manages itself by choice. You ultimately have to deliberately focus not only on each side, but how the two work together. Actually, the storybrand framework, when you get into the problem that you solve, being a purpose driven business doesn't mean you have to work for a not for profit. It means that you solve a problem for someone that needs your help. And I feel that the more you can kind of orient yourself and your team every single day, how are we helping people, our clients, solve a problem, the purpose side of your business goes up. I also feel that depending on the size of your business, it's critical to get people away from their screen, to get people out of their home or their office, and actually get to experience the impact of your work. You know, I know in our small team, we deliberately every season do something that allows us to see the impact of our work, to talk to our clients and it reminds us, oh my gosh, it's not that I'm just checking things off list. Our work is making a difference. You know, if you get a testimonial from a client, don't just put it in your testimonial file, share it with everybody in the team to say, folks, this is happening right now. It takes deliberate effort to be purpose focused. On the profit side, let's just be super clear, especially if your bias is towards purpose, profit is not a bad word. Without profit, we'll never live into our purpose fully. It's always going to be limited. If we can ultimately have a thriving business from a bottom line perspective, we get to do more of what we're great at. We get to actually bring in more great people if that's in our vision. So looking at how do we run this in a way that it's effective, it's efficient, we're unapologetic on a pricing structure that we know is in line with kind of where it should be in the industry and based on our level of expertise. You know, I know even in my work, I do keynote speaking and workshops and I get asked at least once a week to donate keynotes and workshops. You know, amazing organizations like, hey, we don't have a budget, but can you do this? And we've had as organizations that, hey, we're pretty committed to making a difference. You know, we give 10% of our profits away, we're all in. But we want to do that strategically because if we say yes to every single request to give back or feel guilty when we say no, we're kind of cheating ourselves. So, you know, we become really clear what is our giving back strategy. So that we can be just as clear what we say no to as we said what we say yes to. Because if we say yes to everything, at the end of the day, we're not going to have a bottom line that allows us to have great impact.
- [23:18]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
It almost feels like if I'm breaking this down and you correct me if I'm wrong on this, but as I was going through and going, all right, if I'm going to apply this specifically to me, the first thing for me feels like I need to acknowledge my bias and I would lean into purpose a little bit more over profit. But also, I don't ignore profit. I mean, we're building a business here and we're helping other people build their business. And I love that you said profit is not a bad word. But my bias leans towards purpose. So first, acknowledging that, then second, even just with that surrounding myself with people who balance that out and continue to help me. And then third, really making a commitment as an individual and a team to actually lean into both and acknowledge like we're not actually going to let both drop. And for me, that's kind of. If I was creating a quote unquote, three step plan to just kind of get started a little bit, for me, it would be that is with me and my team, having us acknowledge the bias, making sure that in that bias that we work to have a balanced approach across the board and also make a commitment to each other, even just verbally, like, hey, I am going to lean into purpose more when we're having discussions. I need you to lean into the side that you have a bias on a little bit here so we actually elevate the whole business and team together. That would be my almost like plan and strategy and kind of approaching some of this.
- [24:39]
Tim Arnold
I think you have a outstanding three step plan and I mean, we'll continue to link it to profit and purpose. But I'd say to any listener, whether you chose optimism, realism, change and stability, I love your first step, jj, and that identify your bias and you'll have one. You know, April, your example at the beginning with change, stability, I bet you're biased towards change. You know, jj, you're saying, I'm profit person, a purpose. I'm biased towards purpose. A bias is a great thing. It allows you to bring perspective and energy. You see a picture that others on the team may not see. Your bias, though, is either working for you or against you. It's either adding value to the team or creating polarization. So what you want to do is be mindful of that bias. So you're saying, hey, here's what I'm excited about. Here's what I see. And then we have the humility to lean into people who, you know, have the opposite bias. You know, I literally use the term embrace your opposite. If at the end of the day, all I do is hang around with people to see the world the way I see it, My learning goes down, my contribution goes down. So I have to push myself to say, you know what? I know that, you know, April's probably a bit more on the profit side. I need to lean into her opinion, because this isn't a right and wrong. This is a right and right. And what happens is when you can start leaning into different biases and perspectives, all of a sudden, we don't dread meetings because we're not just nodding and kind of waiting for the meeting to end. People are saying, wow, I don't see it that way. Or, you know what? I do it differently. And what happens, jj, at the end of the day, you stop arguing about who's right and who's wrong. And we recognize it's not right and wrong. It's what's best for us right now. It may not be the best answer six months from now, but it's the best call for us right now on this decision.
- [26:27]
April Sunshine Hawkins
There are so many applications for this. It's just living a life, and being a part of a team can be a really complex thing. Right. And whenever we are able to acknowledge, hey, there are good things about each of these things that we're dealing with here, it just. I mean, my anxiety and my tension has subsided just in this conversation alone. And so if we can acknowledge this as leaders within our organization and as leaders within ourselves, we're able to tap into a more calm place where we can actually get a lot of clarity on what we need to do moving forward. And we can be creative and have actual creative solutions instead of just, no, it has to be this way. And so, Tim, I'm curious, you know, as you're working with teams, what are the next steps? If people are wanting to incorporate more of this, both and thinking into their own leadership skill set? And then as they're working with teams, what would you say they should do?
- [27:40]
Tim Arnold
If you can just name one or two tensions and keep it in front of you, there's huge relief in that to say, hey, folks, we're in a season of change, so we're going to be really deliberate about also being in a change, a season of stability. You know, as much as X Y and Z are changing. Here's what's not changing, and here's how we're going to fight hard to not let our team kind of fall into chaos and confusion. This is a season of change and stability. If you can name the tension, it allows people to just go, oh, okay, so both of these things can be true. That's a good thing. Now let's stop wasting our energy on who's right and who's wrong and together put our energy into how do we manage this tension? Well, so we make great decisions. So, you know, I would say what you want to be doing, and you can literally just go to leadwithand.com and there's some great resources. One is just assessment, and you can quickly assess how well am I at this whole both and leadership, both and thinking. So feel free to do that assessment. But you'll also see the six tensions. And what I would say, if you're a solopreneur, look at the six and just circle one to say, I am going to keep this front and center in the season ahead because it's not going away, but like breathing. This can be something that works for me, not against me. If you're in a team, you know, look at the six, print them out, bring them to your team, or virtually show them on a screen and say, when you look at this list, what's the one that we want to be super aligned on? Managing well. And again, if you can just allow everyone to kind of have that shared language around one or two of these key tensions. Ooh, there's huge relief in that.
- [29:20]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Tim, thank you so much for coming on. You have done so much, even for April and I. We actually had you come in and work with our team at storybrand and really walk us through this and helping us manage tensions. I've seen you impact so many businesses and individuals all around the globe, and I am just so honored and grateful that you would come on today and share this with us. Because like we've been saying, I think just acknowledging that it doesn't always have to be these two binary choices that are opposite and one bad and one good. And we fall into that trap so much ourselves. And then to do it not only for ourselves, but then put that on other people can be really constricting, you know, damaging in the growth of a business and the growth of a leader. And so I think today's gift that you gave is just allowing us all to breathe a little bit and work not to fix those tensions, but to manage them well. And I think when we manage them well by acknowledging them, by honoring them and then moving forward so that we get the best results, everybody wins in that process. So thank you so much for sharing with us. Thank you for coming on and Everybody go to leadwithand.com and look at those tensions and fill out the assessment and see where you can actually learn to manage these even better both for yourself and for your business.
- [30:39]
Tim Arnold
Thank you. This has been fun.
- [30:48]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Well, I adore that human being. He is so brilliant and so helpful for so many people and I hope that that was helpful for you today as well. That it just gave you some space to kind of breathe a little bit and stop making judgments around some of the values that you hold in growing your business and really gives you some freedom to lead yourself and your in a way that continues to grow your business. And if you would still like some help in the marketing side of really helping you grow your business, we come alongside you with our Story Brand Certified guides and help you in that space. And if you are interested in hiring a Story Brand Certified guide, just go to marketingmadesimple.com to hire a guide that can show you how to clarify your message, get more marketing out there and grow your business so you can help more people. All right hero Maker, well now it's time to apply everything you learned with this week's Actionable Step. A practical step from today's conversation you can immediately use to shape your marketing and clarify your message. For this week's Actionable Step, I want you to identify an area in your life where you have some tension. And I'm going to list the six tensions Tim talked about in our interview and see which one of these you really are feeling or really kind of have been struggling with lately. So the first is is optimistic and realistic. Next is change versus stability. Another is profit focused and purpose driven. Another is expectations compared to extend grace. Next, care for others and care for yourself. And finally, confident and humble. So which one of these, as I said them, jumps out at you as an area of your life where you're feeling some tension? The first step, really in this actionable step is to name it. I don't think we always have to be working on all six at the same time. But which, which one or two? And let's settle on one for right now is an area that you're feeling some tension in your life and your business. Name it. STEP 2 Where is your bias? Which side of the coin do you tend to lean towards? Name it. Acknowledge it. Not in a good or bad or judgmental way, Just which way do you lean? And then really step three is how are you going to honor that other side and allow it to be a part of the conversation in helping you grow yourself and your team and your business for yourself? That may mean that you just need to be very aware of your bias and need to lean into the other side a little bit more. If you are on a team, you need to make sure that you are honoring the voices of the people who have the alternate bias than you. Invite them into meetings, get their suggestions. Don't use this as an opportunity to fix a problem, but really a way of honoring both sides and managing the tension so that you and your business can grow. I think, like we've said so many times over and over in this episode, is that we feel like one way is the right way, one way is the wrong way, and because we have a bias, we really start arguing and have to almost prove the other side wrong. Well, what if both sides are valuable to the conversation? Let's commit to honoring both sides of the conversation and using both biases to help us grow and move forward. So first, name the tension you're feeling. Second, name the bias. And then third, begin looking at how you can honor the other side of the conversation, either in yourself or your team. When you allow both sides of these tensions to have a voice in the conversation about your business, about a problem that's coming, coming up, about your marketing, you actually can serve yourself and your business at even a higher level. Which means that as you continue to grow, as Tim said earlier, you are going to be able to help more people solve their problems. The better you are at doing this, the better your business is at reaching more people and growing. The more problems you solve and the more people you help become the hero of their story. And that's what ultimately makes you a great guide, and that's what makes you a hero maker. Well, that's all for this week's episode of Marketing Made Simple. Thank you so much for listening and believing, like us, that your marketing should be easy and it should work. Follow Marketing Made simple wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you found this episode valuable, please rate and review the show letting us know how these tips are clarifying your message and growing your business. We'll see you next week.