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Marketing Made Simple
#182: Talkin’ Shop—Why Your Nonprofit's Message Isn’t Connecting (And How to Fix It)
00:45:09
Nonprofit leaders work hard and care deeply, but sometimes their message isn’t clear enough to get people excited and involved. The stories are powerful, and the mission is strong, but the message can get lost. It’s a frustrating reality for...
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- [00:04]
Dr. J.J. Peterson
Chances are, if you're listening to this podcast right now, you're a freelance marketer, an agency owner or a consultant who's passionate about helping businesses grow. Well, if that's you, I've got some exciting news. Right now is your chance to take things to the next level by becoming a storybrand certified guy. Imagine having the tools, the training, and the title that sets you apart in the marketing world. As a storybrain certified guide, you'll be fully equipped to help businesses clarify their message, connect with their customers and skyrocket their sales. Plus, you'll be part of an exclusive community of top tier marketing professionals, sharing insider tips, opportunities and even referrals. But do not wait to apply because the deadline for the December training is just around the corner. So go to storybrand.com guide to apply now and take that first step toward becoming the go to Marketer expert in your field.
- [01:09]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Nonprofits have a unique space. In some ways they do have to view their donors as customers, but really not in the same way. So the story brand framework and clear messaging really, really does help nonprofits get their message out there in whole new ways. That really invites your audiences in to be a part of something that is life changing for both the people you serve and the people who to serve. If you are not a nonprofit and you're going, ah, this isn't for me. No, no, no. This is for you because you're going to be challenged to think in some new ways because of what we talk about. Hello, Hero Maker. Welcome to the Marketing Made simple podcast powered by StoryBrand and brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network where we believe your marketing should be easy. And it. I AM your host, Dr. J.J. peterson, and I am joined by my co host, April Sunshine Hawkins. Hi April.
- [02:08]
Christian Hinojosa
Hello JJ and hello Hero Maker. Okay, jj, I have a question for you.
- [02:14]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Go.
- [02:14]
Christian Hinojosa
I want to know what are some of the ways that you really love working with nonprofits?
- [02:21]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Oh, wow. A lot of ways.
- [02:23]
Christian Hinojosa
I know, I know. There are so many like entry points into working with nonprofits.
- [02:28]
April Sunshine Hawkins
I mean, I love volunteering for, you know, for causes that I'm very passionate about. I love donating to causes that are I'm passionate about. But where I really do feel like I can bring the most to the table is in the marketing world. Of course, you know, that's where I feel like I can really step in and help. Because not even because, I mean, I remember I've told the story many times that when I started in the marketing world, it was in the nonprofit world. I got into that space because I was passionate about a cause and I went to the nonprofit and I said, what do you need? I will do whatever you need. And they said, we need marketing. So I changed my degree to marketing and communication and started working for them when I graduated. I mean, that's, that's why I am here today.
- [03:11]
Christian Hinojosa
Wow.
- [03:11]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Because I was passionate about a cause first and then basically just filled a need. And I didn't know what I was doing in marketing. I didn't know how to build websites, I didn't know how to write emails.
- [03:21]
Christian Hinojosa
Most passionate people don't know.
- [03:24]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Yes. Anything about marketing and they have to work 10 times as hard because they don't have that background, you know. So when I come in and work with boards or when I work with marketing with nonprofit organizations, I'm stepping into a world of people who are some of the hardest workers, the most passionate people you've ever been around. So that's why I love both of those things. And yet small tweaks can actually make a huge difference. And for instance, I was working with a board recently, a nonprofit board, and I was walking through some things with them and their president. And I was just asking questions about email campaigns in particular and come to find out this organization who works with about 5000 volunteers a year. So not small 5000 volunteers, they have donors beyond that, but 5000 people who actually show up, give their time and money to make a difference. And I asked, what kind of follow up do you do after? And they said, well, we send a thank you note with other opportunities that they can be involved in. And I said, is that a handwritten, Is that what. And they said, no, we send an email. So I said, you send one email to these 5,000 people after they are done. How many other emails do you send during the year to them? And they said, well, we do a giving Tuesday campaign. I said, okay, President occasionally sends out an update.
- [04:46]
Christian Hinojosa
Yeah.
- [04:47]
April Sunshine Hawkins
And I was like, oh, we can do so much better than this and it's not going to take a lot. And so in that one meeting, what we did is we actually developed a strategy for creating a follow up campaign for volunteers that was not high pressure because people have already given their time and money. They're literally giving days of their volunteering to them. So not high pressure, not manipulative, but really onboarding people to be more engaged in the ongoing work of the organization. So we started there, then we actually formalized the president update to be more regular and be more focused on other opportunities that people can Engage with on top of the beautiful stories that were being told and updates and needs and all of that, Those two small things, one campaign to follow up with volunteers, and once a month, ongoing connection with the president of the organization is going to completely change the amount of money and time and volunteering that happens for that organization, which will directly translate to live Saved. I mean, that's what's crazy about it. And it's not that, you know, I'm not going in there and going, oh, you guys are being dumb, or you guys are like, not. It's going, oh, you just don't know. And so I love working with nonprofits because I think you can make a big impact very quickly with just a few small tweaks. And then the other thing is that they have such diverse audiences. They're talking to volunteers, they're talking to the people that they serve. They might be selling products on behalf of the people they serve. They need to communicate with their board, they need to communicate with their staff. I mean, there's so many. And then if you are international, there's a whole other, you know, layer to this. But the reality is they are working so hard all the time and so fast that sometimes they don't really pause to go, how do we evaluate our communication strategy? And how do we almost, in some ways, like, start from ground zero in evaluating everything and go, how do we build something that is sustainable that continues to move the organization forward while also increasing our ability to make impact in the world?
- [06:58]
Christian Hinojosa
The passion just comes so freely. You're like, yes, if we make these small tweaks, if you, as an expert get to come in, provide a little bit of education and go, hey, if we set the system up this way, it's going to make a huge impact and more lives will be saved because of it.
- [07:16]
April Sunshine Hawkins
And one of the things, I never want nonprofits to become for profit, kind of total mentality of for profit. But I really do believe more nonprofits need to start thinking about their volunteers, their donors as customers and communicating to them in a way that invites them to be the hero of a story. And we all know the people you serve are the heroes. We know this. We know this. However, if you really actually want to grow the impact of the organization, you have to start thinking of your donors, your volunteers, your board, your staff as the heroes of the story. So that's part of why we wanted to have it on this talk and shop, talk and shop series, because not only can I talk shop about this all day, but we have so many of Our story brand certified guides who not only obviously are amazing at serving for profit organizations and businesses, but also sometimes full time and sometimes even on the side with nonprofits in the same way that I'm talking about here. Cause I work with, I am not a non profit marketing guy. It's just an area that I love to pour myself into on top of everything else that I'm doing. And so we wanted to bring on two people who really are focusing in this space and also are incredible about talking shop, about doing marketing for nonprofits. And my favorite part about this conversation really is that it also applies to for profit businesses. So a lot of the things that we're talking about in this conversation, if you are not a nonprofit and you're going, ah, this isn't for me. No, no, no. This is for you because you're going to be challenged to think in some new ways because of what we talk about.
- [08:52]
Christian Hinojosa
So hero maker, you are going to love Dr. J.J. peterson. Talk and shop with Christian Hinojosa and Natasha Paradeshi, two of our incredible story brand certified guides.
- [09:09]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Natasha and Christian. We get so many questions from people who listen to the podcast and who are fans of storybrand about how to apply the storybrand framework specifically to nonprofits. And we know that you guys have a passion about nonprofits and I have a passion about nonprofits. So I am so excited about this conversation. But I wanted to just start us off and just ask you both what really drew you to this space? I mean, we're talking shop today about nonprofits, people who are in the space, who love this space and want to make a difference. What drew you? And I'll start with you, Natasha. What drew you, you specifically to the nonprofit space to help them with the marketing?
- [09:49]
Natasha Paradeshi
Sure. So my background is working in nonprofits. So I worked with several nonprofits, one of which I helped to start myself. And so I was the executive director for that nonprofit for four years.
- [10:01]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Nice.
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Natasha Paradeshi
And grew up from, you know, just grassroots, no money. And within five years we were at a million dollar budget. And with within eight years, we're at almost a $2 million budget.
- [10:12]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Dang.
- [10:12]
Natasha Paradeshi
And so I wanted to be able to. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's a community. Yeah, it definitely takes a whole team of people being able to pour into a vision. And so one of the things that we did when we started this nonprofit, the Landing, which is an anti human trafficking organization in Houston, is make sure that we are sharing our message very clearly and having really great marketing collateral out there to be able to Draw people into that vision. And so I wanted to be able to help other organizations do the same, which is why I decided to join my husband in our marketing business, Solace Media, to help just work with other nonprofits and do the same and grow their organization so that they're more sustainable and can really advance their missions.
- [10:54]
April Sunshine Hawkins
I love that so much. Cause you know exactly what it's like to be in their shoes. Right. So you've been there, like, trying to build. Build this huge thing and start from scratch. And Christian, I'd love to hear from you who's not Natasha's husband. She mentioned her husband, unless there be any confusion. But, you know. So, Christian, you guys work together a lot on projects. And what drew you to this space?
- [11:16]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so I was in high school, actually, and I worked in IT at the time. So everyone was like, oh, you know how to do websites, you know how to do everything with technology. And I was approached to do a website for an organization around the same time I discovered the storybrand book. And so I applied the principles I learned in the storybrand book to their website that I did. Had no idea what I was doing. And I did it in, like, honestly, a pretty scrappy way. And within a few weeks of launching that website, they're an international organization. They had gone from reaching one or two countries with their website to 37.
- [11:45]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Oh my gosh.
- [11:45]
Unknown Speaker
And they were sending me these messages like, oh, my gosh, we've never reached this many people before. Thank you. This has transformed our organization. And I was like, that. I want to do that for as many people as I can forever.
- [11:56]
April Sunshine Hawkins
I love that so much.
- [11:58]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
- [11:58]
April Sunshine Hawkins
And so that, I mean, same thing, you know, we were talking ahead of time. Same with me. When I started in marketing, I started in the nonprofit space. That's why it has such a strong place in my heart. And nonprofits have a unique space. Right. Like, in some ways, they do have to view their donors as customers. In some ways, they're serving them, they're asking for money, they're asking for time. But really not in the same way. It's not a transactional thing where you get back. You know, it's like, I, I want those shoes. I give you money for shoes, you give me shoes. It doesn't quite work that way. And so what are some things, as you guys have gotten into it, that you see is really the difference between how people approach working on their messaging for a for profit business or. And versus nonprofit.
- [12:45]
Natasha Paradeshi
One of the things that I always remember when working with our nonprofit clients is that you're messaging and you're communicating with multiple stakeholders, right? So you have or those that you're serving, that you're talking to, you're also talking to your donors, your volunteers, your board, your team. And so they all have different perspectives and different Personas, and you're really trying to understand where are they coming from. So it's one thing to talk to just like an executive director or a development director and get their perspective on a discovery questionnaire, for example. But what's really important in the process that we do is surveys, trying to understand from all of these different perspectives what is the problem that they see that the organization is solving, and how is the organization doing that. And I think that's one of the differences is really getting all of the different communication channels, understanding them, and then within that, those different donor Personas. And so you may be communicating to one person more, trying to get that emotional connection through that storytelling. But also data tell stories too, right? And so you're trying to get that data. Also, your board isn't paid in a nonprofit, so their motivations are different, and so you're communicating with them differently. Often we see that boards are not engaged a lot of the time, and I think that's because we don't clearly share with them. How do we want them to be engaged? What are the specific calls to action that we're trying to ask them to do? And so that's one of the top things that you'll see in most nonprofits is just a lack of board engagement. And they have great skill sets. That's why you invited them onto your board. Right. And so we need to be able to figure out how to harness that and use that well. But in order to do that, we need to have clear communication. You're also messaging to, you know, volunteers. You need to be thoughtful. Besides just saying these are opportunities that are out there sharing with them specifically how their engagement is going to make a difference in the organization. And, you know, you have younger volunteers, you have older volunteers, and all of these different generations that you're communicating to. And the reason that they're volunteering is very different. And so you have different kinds of messaging to these different types of volunteers. The other thing is, last thing I'll share right here, is about their strategic plan. Right. So often the nonprofits that we work with may not have a strategic plan when they come to us. So sometimes we're doing a little bit of nonprofit consulting while we're doing the marketing plan, because we don't want to market something that they're not actually doing or not clear on. So you may need to direct them to somebody that does like strategic planning work or consulting and understanding their own programs, because they may come to us saying, we want to market these 15 different programs. So it's just very important to make sure that we're aligning their marketing plan with their strategic plan.
- [15:26]
April Sunshine Hawkins
That's so huge. And one of the other things that jumped out at me is when you're talking about the generational differences, when you're talking about how to approach people who are part of the older generation who might have the time and money to donate, and also the people in the younger generation who have the passion and energy and how do you work with those? And so, Christian, as you think about working with the next generation of people who are passionate and want to make a difference in the world, how do you engage the next generation in compared to maybe some of the older generations in getting them engaged in the work?
- [16:01]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that's a great question. And us that person. I'm 24, so I get it. And one thing about, I guess I'm technically Gen Z, one thing about my generation is we're very hopeful and aspirational in a way that I would say is unprecedented in recent generations. And a lot of younger people are actually very motivated by hope and by vision and they want to be called to action. I see a lot of young people that could have become jaded but have a vision of the world that's so much bigger than. Honestly, even if you're running a nonprofit, you've been facing the same problems for a lifetime and you're like, I don't know if this is even possible. You have a whole army of young people who are like, it is, it is, and we want to help. And there can be sort of an energy transfer from the younger people and a wisdom transfer right from the people who have been in the game over lot a lot longer.
- [16:51]
April Sunshine Hawkins
That is so good.
- [16:52]
Natasha Paradeshi
Can I add something to that?
- [16:53]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Yes, absolutely.
- [16:54]
Natasha Paradeshi
I was going to say that I think that younger generations, well, everybody values transparency. But I think that I've seen that a lot is wanting to know where are the dollars really going to like, are you making an impact? And I think that that's really important to communicate with younger generations. And then also with older generations, I've seen that there's a sense like a duty and responsibility. So that's what they're motivated by. A lot of the time, it's just my sense of responsibility. And D, who Volunteer and do these things versus, say, Gen Z. Yeah.
- [17:25]
Unknown Speaker
And this is anecdotal, but my wife volunteers somewhere where she's. Everyone There is over 60 years old and retired, and she's the only young person there. And they have very different sort of political, ideological reasons for being there. Very different. And she looks at them and she was like, what is it that gets you up at 5 in the morning to come volunteer here? And it is. It's that sense of duty. Whereas she gets up in the morning out of a sense of a vision of what this work can create and the possibilities that it can create. And of course, there can be overlap there. But it's interesting that she finds herself working with people that actually have a very different approach to the work and very different inspiration and motivations, but still joining arms together. But the way that I would message to them and invite them to volunteer would actually be very different.
- [18:07]
April Sunshine Hawkins
That's so good, because it really is true. You have to approach it a little bit differently. And it's not like you go at some of the older generation that I would include myself in the older generations, not the old generation, the older that I would include myself in that we don't want to begin guilted into it, but when we actually speak to the responsibility and the impact that can be made by our engagement. And I love what you said, Christian, about that wisdom is that I think a lot of people in the older generations want to impact the world through their experiences and their wisdom, not just packing lunches, you know what I mean? Like in those kind of contexts, like, and so giving people opportunity to step in in that way, like being on a board or coming in and offering wisdom in a different way or leading projects, but engaging with younger generations and speaking to them with that hope and that vision of a brighter world, I think is so powerful. And that kind of leads me right into then kind of the messaging specifically. So, you know, obviously when we talk about messaging on this podcast, we're really talking about the story brand framework and how to use the story brand framework to create clear messaging. And what just jumped out at me there is the success piece of the brand script. Right. And aspirational identity. So just a reminder for everybody, there really are seven elements to the story brand framework, and it helps you develop talking points for your messaging. So you're identifying what your character wants, what problems they're experiencing that they overcome, how you position yourself as a guide, the plan that you give them to overcome that, their call to action and success and failure. And so each of those has a different way of showing up in marketing and messaging. But when you're talking about the younger generation, you're really calling them to a brighter future. You're showing them what. What is possible when things change. And that really comes out of the success bucket of the brand script. And I always say, when I'm kind of challenging people to create language for the success section of the brand script is the prompt I give is the word imagine. So if I'm working with an organization, I say, if you were talking to somebody who volunteers or who donates, and you just were going to talk about the future and you started with the word imagine, what would you say? What would you write? Imagine the world where. And that begins to give us that kind of, like, language. But there are all these other sections in the brand script that we can use to create really clear messaging that I think is a little bit different for nonprofits than for profits. And you guys have experience in this. So talk to me about some of the different sections of the brand script and how you approach those sections when you're working with nonprofits that might be a little bit different than when you're working with for profits.
- [20:54]
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So like Natasha said, one of the biggest differences is just the amount of brand scripts you will likely end up creating because you have so many different stakeholders. And it might sound like that complicates it. Like, oh, wait, we have to do more brand scripts. But it actually makes it more simple because you can speak more directly to each stakeholder group, and you're not trying to speak to everyone at once. So we will often do a minimum of two, sometimes three brand scripts. So we'll have. You can call it a mission, partner or supporter brand script that's inviting people to sort of link arms with you and donate or volunteer, things like that. And then a client brand script, if you're speaking directly to the people you serve as an organization, oftentimes an organization will also need a third script where they're speaking to a really broad audience that might have both partners and clients. And they find themselves, especially when they get to the plan section, they're like, I don't know what one call to action I can give everyone because it's different. I'll often actually embrace that in the script and make the client the hero of the story. Use the philosophical problem as sort of the hinge point that says, hey, you care about this, we care about this. Let's care about this together. Together. And then for the plan, it doesn't always, if you're speaking to a broad audience have to be linear. It can be a here's the plan. Volunteer or donate or get help. Here's the ways that you can engage with us. Because I think a lot of nonprofits can spin their wheels like, how do we give them this linear plan? But you are speaking to a lot of people. But breaking down the characters is really helpful, I would say. Also in the problem or the challenge section, whenever we're speaking to them again, the donor or the partner is actually not the human. The person that we serve is the hero. And in donor development, that's a different conversation, Right? But from a broad messaging perspective, if every organization made the donor the hero, every brand script would sound something along the lines of, you want to make an impact. The problem is you don't know who to give to. Give to us solved your problem, and so we want to get a little bit more creative. And so that's why it's all about the philosophical problem for nonprofits. It's your flag in the ground, your stake in the ground that says, hey, you care about this, we care about this, let's care about this together. And then you can shift in the second half of the script, call them to action to work on that problem together.
- [23:04]
Christian Hinojosa
Create like the Greats, hosted by Ross Simmons, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. If you're a creator, entrepreneur, or just someone fascinated by the creative process, this podcast is for you. You each episode dives into some of the greatest creations and creators of all time, breaking down the strategies and mindsets that really built their empires. In a recent episode titled Content Marketing Strategy for Boring Industries, don't you just love that? Ross Simmons talks with John Bertino, host of the Niche Marketing Podcast, about turning even the most boring industries into engaging content. They dive into strategies like working with influencers, creating engaging news newsletters, and using smart distribution tactics. Just so many amazing ways to effectively tell your brand story and stay relevant. Listen to Create the Greats wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:59]
April Sunshine Hawkins
When all your marketing team does is put out fires, they burn out. But with HubSpot, they can achieve the best results without the stress. Tap into HubSpot's collection of AI tools called Breeze. You can pinpoint leads, capture attention, and access all your data in one place. Keep your marketers cool and your company results hotter than ever. Visit HubSpot.com marketers to learn more. And now back to the show.
- [24:28]
Unknown Speaker
There's some unique aspects about the guide section for nonprofits as well, I will often add a solution section that actually just clearly says what the work actually is, what the nonprofit actually does does. And under that, I will often actually outline the programs too, with a one liner next to each. So problem, solution, success for each program, which is where, like Natasha was saying, some of that strategy piece comes in because they find themselves outlining your 15 different programs. And you might realize it actually doesn't line up to the problem that you outlined above, or you come up with new ideas for things that programs that you could create. So we'll actually outline the solution, the programs. I'll also add a section for uniqueness, which is exactly what it sounds like. How are you different from other nonprofits doing this work which is not necessarily competitive? It's not better, it's just different because you're going to find people who want to approach the work in different ways. And in the authority section, this is where it's very important to use those impact numbers, which is a strength that nonprofits have that I think they tend to have more access to than for profit businesses. There's some impressive numbers to show off when it comes to the call to action. I pay more attention to the transitional call to action. I know that for for profit businesses we often joke like, no one cares about your newslet. Give them something better than a newsletter. In nonprofits, I've found that the newsletter can actually be a very valuable resource if you position it correctly. As someone on the other side of nonprofits, I find myself wanting to donate or volunteer. I'm not quite ready yet, and I actually want to subscribe to their newsletter so I can stay up to date with what they're doing and I can volunteer, donate when I'm ready. And so having a newsletter as a transitional call to action that tells stories and invites people into a story is actually very valuable for a nonprofit. And you can still get creative with other transitional call to actions. But the newsletter is actually very strong one for a lot of organizations.
- [26:11]
Natasha Paradeshi
And I was going to add to that in that same newsletter section what Krishna is saying, it's maybe they can't come to that next event, but they want to be what they want to stay in the know of the next events or volunteer opportunities and like you said, stories of success. And you have to include that on your website of what they're getting when they're subscribing to that newsletter. And maybe you're calling that something different. For example, you work with an organization that works with does equine therapy, and so their Newsletter is hey there, right? So hey there. So you can be creative with, but make them want to subscribe so that you're still captivating that audience that wants to stay engaged with the nonprofit and cares about your mission.
- [26:49]
April Sunshine Hawkins
And anybody in nonprofit really should pause right now, go back and re listen to everything you just said because you really broke each of the sections down in really powerful ways of things that you want to think about in each section. But there's a couple of things I want to pull out that you said that I think are applicable to specifically nonprofits, but also everybody in business. The first is don't be afraid to create multiple brand scripts. That I think a lot of times people come to and they say, but I have multiple people. Like let's say I'll pull out Airbnb, right? Airbnb, a for profit business. They have to target people who are putting their homes on the site and then people who want to rent homes on the site. Those are two very different audiences. Those are two very different brand scripts. So when you're saying don't be afraid to create one for the donor, for the board, for the people that you serve, the clients, those people all are. You're approaching them differently because you solve different problems, problems for each of them. So don't be afraid to make multiple brand scripts. And then something that you mentioned that I think gets missed a lot, that I don't talk about a lot is exactly what you talked about in the plan section. There's a bunch of different ways to approach plan. I think people get caught up in like they get really scared when it comes to this section. Because when we're teaching storybrand, we're giving them like you can actually do four or five different options here. And typically the one that we usually go with because it's the easiest, it's how to get started. So it's really like in a for profit world world. It's like pick your size, pick your color ship or schedule a call, get a plan. We help you out, you know, something kind of how to get started. But what you just talked about are there's two different ways, two things you brought up. One, the programs that you do so you can say the way we solve this problem is through these different programs. That's a plan. You're showing the plan of how you solve it. Another way that you did it is the three different ways that to get involved that are very clear. Donate time, donate money, donate materials, you know, something like that of these are the ways you can get involved that Also is a plan. A plan's whole design is say, here's how we are moving forward. And I like that because I don't hear a lot of people talk about the three different ways you can do it. Because we think we need one call to action. But in the nonprofit world, it's not just buy now. You are also asking for donations, you're also asking for time. And you want everybody to be able to meet the organization where they're at. And so I loved that in the plan section. I think it's really important for people to hear both of those things. Now, you guys have worked with a lot of different nonprofits, and this is kind of a joke around our office a little bit, because the question we probably get the most often is, does this work for nonprofits? We get this all the time. And so. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what we say. And so you've worked with so many. And I want to hear from you, does this work for nonprofits? And how.
- [29:45]
Unknown Speaker
Does.
- [29:45]
April Sunshine Hawkins
How have you seen it work for nonprofits?
- [29:48]
Unknown Speaker
So one of my favorite success stories to share is a project with another story brand guide. Dana Casto for the Marcus Performing Arts center in Milwaukee. Huge performing arts center, huge audience, and therefore, of course, huge potential for impact. We took a look at their website and basically what we did is we brand scripted each audience and each program, and we structured their website from the bottom up. So we thought like you do, a brand script where we structured the website thinking from the perspective of each different type of visitor, each different type of stuff, stakeholder. And we built a page for each stakeholder group. Venue rentals, ticket buyers, individual donors, major donors. And we had that specific messaging, like you said, multiple brand scripts. We played that out on the website for them. And that turned into, in just six months, 310% increase in returning website visitors. People who came back to the site again, people spent 133% more time on the website learning about the organization. This is my favorite one. In just six months, the interactions on the site, so the times people are clicking on things and actually exploring around the site went up from 540,000 before the website launched to 2.1 million interactions.
- [30:57]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Dang.
- [30:57]
Unknown Speaker
On the website. So that's almost 4x. And that's not people. That's amount of interactions. Yeah, but still that means people are. They feel seen, they feel engaged, and they're taking more action on the site, which is the biggest win. That's what you want as an organization.
- [31:12]
April Sunshine Hawkins
So good, because when people can see themselves in the story, they're going to lean into that story even more. And so just to kind of, again, for people's helping people understand this. So when you have multiple brand scripts, they're not all on the main page, right? Like when you created this, how does that then look practically on the website? How many pages were there? How did that work? How did you approach that?
- [31:33]
Unknown Speaker
A whole lot of pages.
- [31:34]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Yeah.
- [31:35]
Unknown Speaker
But I was actually thinking when you mentioned earlier about having the multiple scripts, the thing that binds your brand scripts together is your philosophical problem and your vision. Those things don't change no matter who you're talking to. It's the thing that binds everyone together. And so we opened, if I remember, the headline that we wrote was creating front row moments for everyone. Everyone can get behind that. I want to experience a front row moment. As a ticket buyer, I want to give people front row moments. As a donor, I want people at the venue that I'm renting for my wedding to experience front row moments. Everyone feels seen by this. So we can cast this vision that everyone can go on board and then we structure the rest of the site based on their revenue goals. So you can guess about how to structure the site. But actually, if you look at who you want to prioritize among your many audiences, you can prioritize who to give information to first and then guide them through that journey. But what we do on the homepage, you want to make people to be able to click off to their journey as quickly as you can so that they feel seen. So that looks like a clear menu that makes it very clear which path they can go down. Clear call to action buttons. And then as we scroll down the page, we make it easy to click off as soon as possible to any of the different stakeholder journeys on the website.
- [32:45]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Oh, love that. Oh, so good. Natasha, you've worked with a lot of nonprofits. Do you have any success stories from nonprofits that have used the story brand framework?
- [32:55]
Natasha Paradeshi
Yeah, I'd like to share about Christian Community Service center or ccse. So they provide both short term and long term relief for families in Houston through things like food assistance and workforce development. And they just have a huge staff, a lot of board members and people communicating in different ways about their organization. And so they came to us wanting to have a clarified story, a much cleaner website so that they can increase actually their donations, which is what a lot of nonprofits want. So we partnered with them to write their brand story, and within 12 months, they saw a 44% increase in new visitors to the site in the 12 months after launch compared to the prior 12 months. And then they saw a 12% increase in online revenue in the 12 months after the launch compared to the previous 12 months, which actually is a $60,000 increase in 12 months, which is huge for this organization. So we're just really excited about what they're doing. And just by them being able to clarify their story and create that user journey on their website, result in over $60,000 online. Just online revenue. This is not even checks coming in, right.
- [34:01]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Just like people who are clicking who came to the site, which is usually above and beyond kind of the specific asks and campaigns. So that's. That is pretty amazing. I love this so much. Story brand framework and clear messaging really, really does help nonprofits get their message out there in whole new ways. And I could talk to you both about this forever, and I feel like we may need to have you back on for like part two or something to kind of go into deep, because we haven't even gotten into fundraising dinners yet and how that works. But, you know, all of this, to me, I think is so helpful and applicable for everybody, whether you're in the nonprofit space or not. But understanding the clear message. Well, a couple things are jumping, jumping out to me. First, understanding your revenue goals, where do you want to be and where who are you going to focus on in order to get there, I think is really important. Then don't be afraid to create multiple brand scripts. Keep the stories clear, but have one overarching story through the whole thing that really lives in that vision and philosophical space. Keep that as your grounding for everything you're doing. And then the different little problems you bring in or the different little plans that you bring in can go to different audiences. But when you're focused on that overall mission now, you can kind of play with the rest of it a little bit. And I think just those tips alone, beyond the specifics about approaching your board and volunteers and calls to action and the difference of generation, I think this has been beautiful.
- [35:27]
Natasha Paradeshi
And I was going to add one thing that we didn't talk about was ethical storytelling. I think one thing that's really important in nonprofit messaging versus for profit is it's always important to be ethical, no matter if you're for profit or nonprofit. But specifically in nonprofits, we want to make sure that when we're using stories that we're not exploiting those that we're serving and we're giving dignity in that story. So that's just really important to do a quick check as you're going through the process with your nonprofit clients.
- [35:50]
April Sunshine Hawkins
That's so huge because the research shows, just to be a little crass, the research shows that when, in short term campaigns, when you use sad pictures of devastation and of people being in pain, that in the short term you actually raise more money. That doesn't actually last. If you keep doing that over and over, people will disengage. But also, I think it is more than that. It's exactly what you're talking about, about that are we actually exploiting people for our own gain or are we actually bringing dignity to the story? And there's a lot of different ways to do that. But, you know, talking about hope and talking about success and bringing in those numbers versus just talking about the devastation. And the way that we always talk about it is when there is an emergence sea and you need to get in and get out and make a difference quickly, you don't, as the saying goes, teach a man to fish if their village was destroyed by a tsunami. You don't come in and go, let me teach you how to rebuild. You give them food in that moment. And inviting people to be a part of that kind of work may require using some imagery and using some language that is a little bit more disaster focused. But if you keep doing that, then I think especially then at that point, you do become unethical. And in those disaster kind of stories, you have to be really careful about how you approach it. That is such an incredible point to bring up and something to be thinking about for everybody out there. There are ways to talk about needs in a way that doesn't feel exploitative or take advantage of people, that still can get people to move, be moved to action.
- [37:28]
Unknown Speaker
So when you think about that from a brand script perspective, I'll say the client, the person that you serve is your hero. They're not your stakes. And I think that if you find the person that you serve only lives in sort of the stakes section or the problem section of your brand, we can stand to be actually more visionary and uplifting them by making them the hero of the story. So they should be the hero and the vision should be all about them and their success. We can talk to donors and their success that they can experience by donating. We can talk about volunteers success and how they'll feel good by donating. But they're actually, they're still not the heroes of the story. The people we serve are.
- [38:01]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Love that. My hope is that everybody who's listening can take these principles and apply it to their own business. But specifically today, I really hope that nonprofits can take these and begin thinking about how to approach their messaging differently. You know, so many nonprofit leaders came into the space because they have a huge heart, because they have a huge desire to make a difference in the world and yet did not get into it because they were great at marketing, they're great at storytelling, and they can tell a lot of different stories. But when it comes to actually engaging specific audiences, you need a clear, singular story that really invites your audiences in to be a part of something that is life changing for both sides, the people you serve and the people who get to serve. And so I know that what people have heard today is going to make a massive impact on their organization. So thank you both for the work that you do and thank you so much for coming here and talking Shop.
- [38:56]
Unknown Speaker
Thanks jj.
- [38:57]
Natasha Paradeshi
Thank you for having us jj.
- [39:07]
April Sunshine Hawkins
Man, I have loved these Talk and Shop episodes. I hope you you have too and have learned as much as I have from our storybrand certified guides. And if you are still feeling stuck trying to figure out how to apply the story brand framework into your for profit or nonprofit marketing, you can hire a story brand certified guide like Christian Inejosa or Natasha Paradeshi. Just go to marketingmadesimple.com to hire a guide that will show you how to clarify your message and create marketing that works. All right, hero maker, it is time to apply everything you learned with this week's actionable step. A practical step from today's conversation you can immediately use to shape your marketing and clarify your message. One of the things that I loved that Christian and Natasha were focusing in on was the idea of creating different brand scripts for different audiences. It doesn't matter if you are a for profit or a nonprofit organization, you have to communicate with a variety of different audiences. For many businesses in the for profit space, you also have a board that you need to communicate with. You have investors, you have staff, you have people who maybe want to come and volunteer with you or recruit interns. You have so many different audiences. And it's the same in nonprofit you have volunteers, you have your board, you have the people you serve, you have donors, you have your staff. When it comes to communicating to those different audiences, what you want to identify is what story are you inviting them into. And in the story brand world, what that means is what brand scripts are you creating for your different audiences. The way you determine if you need a new brand script or a nuanced brand script that can be kind of a companion piece to your overall Brand message is when you are talking to an audience that you solve a problem for differently than your main audience. So, for instance, in the story brand world, we communicate to businesses, we help businesses clarify. Now, we do this for small businesses and large businesses. If you're a small business, you can actually come to our storybrand livestream workshop and you can come yourself and be there with one of our story brand certified guides that will actually walk you through the process of creating your brand script. However, if you are a large organization, that's probably not going to work for you. So we actually come to you in private workshops. We have two different brand scripts for people who are individual business owners or for large businesses who have large teams. The reason we have different brand scripts is because we solve a problem differently for those two audiences. Now, both of the brand scripts are still all about helping them clarify their message. It's just we are solving the problem a little bit differently for the different audiences. So we have to communicate differently. And in our marketing to those different audiences, it is the same for you. You have multiple audiences that you need to talk to. After you have created your overall brand script for your whole company, start breaking it down and thinking about who are the different types of audiences that we need to communicate this message to and how is the brand script going to be a little bit different. So if you are a for profit business, you may be a B2 company who sells directly to other businesses, and you may sell directly to customers. You may be a B2B and B2C. Those are two different brand scripts. If you are a nonprofit, you have volunteers, you have a board, you have donors, you have your staff. Those are different brand scripts. Now, I just kind of talked a lot there, but let me get right down to the actual step. What you want to do right now is identify the different audiences that you want to communicate your message. And for now, what I want you to do is pick one of those audiences and create a nuanced brand script for them. So again, if it's in the nonprofit space, if you want to talk specifically to donors, I want you to create a brand script for a donor. If you want to talk to volunteers, create a brand script for volunteers. If you want to talk to your board, create a brand script for your board. But pick one audience. Break down the message in a way that communicates more directly with them. When you are able to create a brand script that specifically targets the audience that you want to engage in a more nuanced way, what you're doing is you're identifying a problem that they have that might be a little bit different than other audiences. When you can speak directly to that problem and talk about how your organization or your business can solve that specific problem, you are more likely to be able to get higher engagement because they will see you as their guide, as the people who can help them solve their problem. When you talk about the problem that you can solve for specific audiences, what you're doing is you're inviting those people into a story that they get to be the hero of. You get to become their guide by helping them solve their problems. That's what makes you a great guide, and that's what makes you a hero, hero maker. Well, that's all for this week's episode of Marketing Made Simple. Thanks so much for listening and believing, like us, that your marketing should be easy and it should work. Follow Marketing Made simple wherever you listen to podcasts and if you found this episode valuable, please rate and review the show letting us know how these tips are clarifying your message and growing your business. We'll see you next week.
- [44:59]
Unknown Speaker
Cannot stop me, you cannot stop me. Go.