Why That Worked #13: Marriage—The Truth About What Makes Love Work Long-Term (ft. Johnnyswim)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Marketing Made Simple – Episode 13: "Marriage—The Truth About What Makes Love Work Long-Term" (ft. Johnnyswim)

Release Date: April 2, 2025

In the thirteenth episode of Marketing Made Simple, titled "Marriage—The Truth About What Makes Love Work Long-Term," hosts Donald Miller and Kyle Reed delve deep into the intricate dynamics of sustaining a long-term marriage. Featuring the married duo Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano from the musical group Johnnyswim, the episode offers an authentic exploration of what it takes to maintain a thriving relationship amidst the challenges of life on the road and personal adversities.

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1. Introduction to "Why That Worked" Podcast

Bobby Richards kicks off the episode by introducing the new podcast series, "Why That Worked," presented by StoryBrand AI. Emphasizing actionable insights designed to help listeners implement effective strategies in their endeavors, the episode sets the stage for an engaging conversation about marriage beyond the romanticized version.

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2. Meet the Guests: Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano

Donald Miller and Kyle Reed welcome Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano, the powerhouse duo behind Johnnyswim, who have successfully navigated over a decade of marriage while touring and raising a family. Their unique experiences serve as a foundation for discussing the real, often messy aspects of long-term love.

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3. The Journey to Marriage

The conversation begins with Abner sharing their serendipitous meeting:

Abner Ramirez [04:23]: “I saw Amanda across the room, and I literally said out loud, that's the girl I'm going to marry. And she did the one thing I was unprepared for. She rolled her eyes at me... and I didn't see her again for four years after that.”

Amanda recounts her initial impressions:

Amanda Sudano [06:27]: “I have good discernment, sir. Please don't talk to me... but I also thought he was cute.”

Their delayed union after four years highlights the unpredictable nature of relationships and destiny.

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4. Transformation Through Marriage

Abner reflects on his early views of marriage as a mere “finish line” or an achievement, which shifted profoundly over time:

Abner Ramirez [20:23]: “I saw marriage like a finish line... It's just the beginning of the journey.”

This metamorphosis underscores the concept that marriage is an ever-evolving partnership requiring continual growth and adaptation.

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5. Overcoming Challenges Together

The couple delves into the hardships they've faced, including Amanda's severe health issues post-COVID and Abner's battle with depression. These trials tested their resilience and reinforced the importance of mutual support:

Amanda Sudano [16:29]: “We built this other layer of trust... being each other's teammate... it’s been an amazing two years for us emotionally together.”

Abner adds:

Abner Ramirez [19:54]: “...this usness is constantly moving... you change and you grow as people.”

Their ability to navigate personal crises highlights the strength derived from a deeply bonded partnership.

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6. Communication and Support Systems

Effective communication emerged as a cornerstone of their enduring relationship. Recounting a moment when Amanda felt neglected during a tour:

Amanda Sudano [19:49]: “I wanted him to just be with me. He just kind of sat with me for a second and was like, okay, I gotta go... I felt really alone.”

Post-incident, they worked through their feelings with their therapist, Tim Long, strengthening their ability to “hold space” for each other:

Amanda Sudano [19:56]: “He knows, just give me five minutes... then we can be back on the same page again.”

This experience taught them the importance of patience and understanding in communication.

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7. The Upcoming Musical: "When the War Is Over"

Abner and Amanda reveal their exciting project—a musical titled "When the War Is Over," set to debut in the West End and possibly Broadway. The musical draws inspiration from their personal struggles and triumphs:

Abner Ramirez [13:20]: “It's about relationship and what drew us to the project... It's about that cosmic pull of two people together.”

Amanda elaborates on the thematic essence:

Amanda Sudano [16:12]: “It's about me feeling traumatized by the experience and questioning if I can return to my former self.”

The musical encapsulates their journey, illustrating how shared adversity can forge an unbreakable bond.

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8. Redefining the Purpose of Marriage

A pivotal discussion revolves around the true essence of marriage. Abner challenges the traditional notion of marriage as merely romantic or additive:

Abner Ramirez [08:50]: “If you're looking to add to your life by adding a partner... it's not about us.”

He emphasizes transformation over completion:

Abner Ramirez [10:02]: “It’s being completely transformed... I am a completely different human because of my wife.”

Amanda echoes this sentiment, highlighting self-love fostered through a healthy relationship:

Amanda Sudano [10:38]: “When you love the right person, you end up loving yourself more too.”

Their insights redefine marriage as a partnership that catalyzes personal growth and mutual transformation.

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9. Conclusion: A Testament to Enduring Love

As the episode wraps up, the hosts and guests reflect on the powerful bond that has kept Abner and Amanda together through the highs and lows. Their story serves as an inspiring testament to the depth and resilience required for a lasting marriage.

Notable Quotes:

• Abner Ramirez [10:02]: “It absolutely has to transform you. It's not being completed.”
• Amanda Sudano [14:22]: “Two stalkers find each other. That's the moral of this episode.”
• Abner Ramirez [20:23]: “We are rivers, not lakes.”

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Key Takeaways:

• Intentionality in Marriage: Success in marriage requires deliberate effort, intention, and continuous nurturing.

• Resilience Through Adversity: Facing and overcoming challenges together can strengthen the marital bond.

• Transformation Over Completion: Marriage should be viewed as an ongoing journey of mutual growth and transformation, not as a finish line.

• Effective Communication: Clear, empathetic communication is essential in addressing and resolving conflicts.

• Mutual Support Systems: Being each other's teammate and providing unwavering support during personal crises fortifies the relationship.

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For those seeking to understand the intricacies of maintaining a long-term marriage, this episode offers valuable insights drawn from the real-life experiences of Johnnyswim. Whether you're married, contemplating marriage, or simply curious about relationship dynamics, Abner and Amanda's candid discussion provides a fresh perspective on what makes love work in the long run.

Transcript

[Bobby Richards]

Hey, hero makers, it's podcast producer Bobby Richards. I'm jumping in to share with you a new episode of our brand new podcast, why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI with Donald Miller back in the host seat. Now, since we launched Marketing Made simple, we've been so grateful to have everybody tune in each week to learn how to make your marketing easy and make it work. Which is exactly why we're sharing new episodes of the why that Worked podcast here. In the old Marketing Made simple feedback, but only for a limited time. Each episode of the new show is gonna deliver actionable insights and key takeaways that are all designed so you can implement them to help make whatever you're working on work. Now, here's the deal. Like I said, this is only for a limited time. If you wanna catch new episodes early, you can watch or listen every Monday. To watch the show, just go subscribe to the StoryBrand YouTube channel. And to listen, go follow why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI wherever you enjoy your podcasts. All right, that's it for me. So grateful you're here. And enjoy this week's episode of why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI. You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends, or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week, we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed. Hey, everybody. Podcast producer Bobby Richards here. And today on the show, we're talking about why marriage works. Not the fairy tale version, but the real messy, transformative kind. Now, if you've ever wondered what makes a marriage thrive, you're absolutely in the right place. Many couples struggle because they expect love to be effortless. But a real marriage takes intention, resilience, and a deep understanding of one another. And sharing their personal story around all of this are today's guests, Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano. Ramirez, the musical powerhouse duo known as Johnny Swim, they tour together. They've been doing that for over a decade. They've been raising a family and they're building a life side by side. All of that has tested and strengthened their relationship in ways that they never expected. And they're gonna get into that today. So whether you're married, you're thinking about marriage, or you're just curious about what makes relationships last, this conversation is gonna give you a fresh perspective. Let's get into it.

[Donald Miller]

We have to be talking about marriage on a day when Johnny Swim came in to do a little tiny desk concert. And so we thought, well, you guys are married and you've done it on a tour bus. You've been married on a tour bus for a decade. And if that's not a grue test, first of all, congratulations on staying married.

[Abner Ramirez]

Thank you very much.

[Kyle Reed]

Now, teach us your secrets.

[Donald Miller]

Teach us that you're doing it just.

[Kyle Reed]

You figured it out. So tell us everything you know.

[Abner Ramirez]

The good news is we have all the answers.

[Bobby Richards]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

If you ask our therapist, he really doesn't know what his job is for us anymore.

[Donald Miller]

He just sits there shaking.

[Kyle Reed]

He pays you.

[Abner Ramirez]

He takes notes for other people.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Smart. That's good. That's good.

[Donald Miller]

I'm very curious, though, your opinions. Have you ever had sort of a philosophical thought of, like, marriage and why it exists and what. What the purpose of it is? What do you see the purpose of marriage? Is it to make records?

[Abner Ramirez]

Well, for us, it's financially beneficial.

[Donald Miller]

You don't have to pay the talent.

[Abner Ramirez]

People love seeing a married couple on stage. And it pays. So, you know, we go our separate ways afterwards. No, I. You know, it's funny about marriage because I grew up in church, grew up little Southern Baptist kid in Florida, and was always pretty preached to. You know, I had my promise ring, I kissed dating goodbye, did all this stuff. Did you really? I really did.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

Well, I mean, I didn't succeed. I didn't do it successfully. You know, it's funny, she wore my promise ring on our wedding day.

[Amanda Sudano]

Around her necklace, I was like, I'm reclaiming the promise ring.

[Abner Ramirez]

So I never. I was always preached to. God has one for you. God, there's the one for you. And even as a kid, I never believed that. I never computed because the math just couldn't. Math, like, if everybody has a person. So all it takes is one idiot to mess up the algorithm for everybody.

[Donald Miller]

You figured that out really early.

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah. I was like, this just can't be. That can't be how it is, right?

[Donald Miller]

And I see my brain would have said, so I get three.

[Abner Ramirez]

That's right.

[Amanda Sudano]

I get a few chances.

[Abner Ramirez]

Then I figured out because somebody messed it up. And it wasn't. It literally was in Brentwood, Tennessee, it was at a church because I was dating a girl, a different girl that said I had to go to church with her if we were going to keep dating. And I saw Amanda across the room, and I literally said out loud, that's the girl I'm going to marry. And it was this really profound. There's no way for me to lie about it because it's as ridiculous as it sounds. It changed my life. I was, I was a player, as it were. I had probably. How old were you? I was 19. 18 maybe, but 19, 19.

[Donald Miller]

I found the Promise Ring is a great way to reel in chicks.

[Abner Ramirez]

Honestly. Same. And honestly, I keep saying goodbye at tours back in the day and like the Promise Ring tour stuff, that was a great place to meet girls as well. Like truly, just say a couple of the right things and you're golden. 18 year old Abner was a pro at that. But at 19, when I first saw her, it literally changed my life. I got dumped because I was sitting next to the girl that I was dating.

[Donald Miller]

Did you really say it out loud?

[Abner Ramirez]

I said it out loudness. Literally right there in that seat. And it was my last.

[Donald Miller]

You elbowed your date and said, that's the girl I'm going to marry?

[Abner Ramirez]

I didn't even. I didn't. She elbowed me. I was like, that's the girl I'm going to marry. And she goes, what? I said, that's the girl. Oh, that's the girl I'm going to marry. And she elbowed me in the ribs where I said, I guess you better go talk to her. Then I was like, yeah, yeah, I should. So I got up at church to go holler at Amanda and she did the one thing I was unprepared for. She rolled her eyes at me and I sat down in the nearest pew and didn't see her. Didn't meet her for four years after that. Like literally four years went by, but I never dated again.

[Donald Miller]

Do you have a memory of this, Amanda?

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah. I remember seeing him with not just one girl, multiple girls multiple times at church. And so when he came up to talk to me, I was like, I have good discernment, sir. Please don't talk to me. But I also did think he was cute. So I was like, he's really cute, but I see who he hangs out with and I see, ah, like I'm not here for this. And also if he's hanging out with those girls, he's not gonna like me because I was also not that. I don't know, I was like a dork. And I went to Vanderbilt and I would crawl out of my dorm to go have to go to church with my parents and I'd put my glasses on and like barely brush my hair. So I was like, you don't want this if you're hanging out with the girls that are coming to church like this. So it was four years, and then we saw each other at a coffee shop, Cafe Coco. Did you not forget recipes?

[Donald Miller]

Did you not forget her?

[Abner Ramirez]

No. No, did not. Absolutely. Could not, would not. I started stalking her online. And during those four years, she moved to New York, was a model. I had the early Google alerts where you would just Google somebody every day.

[Donald Miller]

You set up with her.

[Abner Ramirez]

I'd get a ping, really, Whenever she did a new shoot or whatever. And I. Yeah. And I put it. I had a folder on my desktop of pictures of Amanda.

[Kyle Reed]

And you said yes.

[Amanda Sudano]

So what happened was. So we saw each other. I walked into Cafe Coco.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Amanda Sudano]

And our dear friend Matt Carney, who's also a musician, was his roommate at the time. And I knew Matt from when I was in high school. And so I saw Matt. I didn't see Abner's backwards to me. And I go, oh, my gosh, Matt. And he turns around, or Matt says, hi, and he goes, oh, do you know my. My roommate Abner? And Abner turns around, looks at me, and all he says was. All he said was, I've been waiting to meet you for so long. And I was like, excuse me. And so he asked if he could come sit with me, my friend, and have coffee. I was dating somebody else at the time, so I was just kind of, like, curious, I guess. And he sat down and talked. I was texting all my single friends, like, I met the sweetest guy. I thought he was going to be horrible and a player, but he's actually amazing. And one of you should date him.

[Abner Ramirez]

Last four years.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah, he changed over the last four years, but.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, how'd you change?

[Abner Ramirez]

I literally kissed dating goodbye at that moment. When I. When I got dumped that day at church.

[Donald Miller]

You hadn't dated for four years?

[Abner Ramirez]

I'd stopped. I never had another girlfriend until the day I started dating.

[Donald Miller]

Come on.

[Abner Ramirez]

No, truly. And it's funny. I made it known, like, there would be. Like, I would have, because I was raised by women, right? Like, I have two older sisters, my mom and my grandma. And so I'd get comfortable with a girl at work or whatever, and I could tell she thought this was going somewhere. And I would tell the girl, hey, just so you know, like, I'm not dating anybody. Like, this isn't. I like being around you. And I like when we all hang out, but I'm not trying to.

[Bobby Richards]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

I'm not trying to have anything right now. I'm working on me. And it was a real answer. And I know the question was, what do you think the purpose of marriage is for us? No. I like to divide the pragmatic, practical answer from the kind of magical feeling, because I never believed in the magic of relationships or the cosmic kind of sentiment of the one until I met her. And so even my practical sentiment, which is truly. I think it could boil down to, I could never be my truest self if I never married her. I would never be my fullest self if I didn't have my wife. I've talked to her ex boyfriend once, and I won't name him. And I remember he came up to me at church one day after we were married. And he's like, you know, and he's like, he's a male model. When we started dating, this dude was on every magazine that I had a subscription to.

[Donald Miller]

That's trouble.

[Abner Ramirez]

It was the worst thing. He was an underwear model, so it made it even worse. And I remember he came up to me and he was like, you know, people say, who's the love of your? And I tell him about Amanda, and they're like, oh, you know, is she single? He's like, no, she's married to somebody. She's like, oh, maybe they'll break up and you'll still have a chance. And he's saying this to me as a compliment, believe it or not. He's like, no. And I'm like, no, she's married to a good dude. Like, he's fine. Da, da, da, da. One day I'm gonna get my wife. One day I'm gonna get that level up, you know? He's talking about it kind of the way I thought about marriage. Like a really shiny trophy, or like, this thing that you should have, or like this. This addition to you. It's me plus wife equals a thing. And I was. And I tried to express it to him, and I think it was the first time I tried to put words to it. I was like, bro, this isn't about, first of all, yeah, I am a good guy, and she stuck with me forever. But second of all, like, this isn't. You're not looking to add to your life when you get married if you're looking to add to your life. And I'm not saying this as advice, because we say we don't give advice. But if you're looking to add to your life by adding a partner, I think you're already kind of messing up, because it's not about us. The separation of these two People, if.

[Donald Miller]

You don't see it as a challenge designed to transform you, it absolutely has to transform you. It's not being completed.

[Abner Ramirez]

No, it is being completely transformed. It's like it doesn't matter how little bit of food coloring you put into how big a bucket of water, that water is a different color with just the littlest bit. And this is. We're talking about half and half. We're talking about completely transforming who you are. I'm sure at some point there will be scientific evidence that on a molecular level, you are different. When you bond, not just through the act of getting in front of God and all your friends and saying you'll be together till you die, but through living life together, I believe molecularly, it has to be true. You change. Because I am a completely different human because of my wife. And I like this human.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

You know?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Amanda Sudano]

I saw somebody say, when you love the right person, you end up loving yourself more too, because you know the things about yourself that you love. Yeah. My favorite part about that story with my ex, though he didn't get to. Which he said, you know, basically a beautiful speech like this to. To him, what we just talked about, and my ex's reply was, you said something cool. I said something cool.

[Donald Miller]

You want to touch my abs?

[Amanda Sudano]

That checks. That checks. You know, that's what I do when.

[Donald Miller]

Somebody'S just better than me. I just go, look at my abs.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah, check this out exactly.

[Bobby Richards]

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[Donald Miller]

You guys are amazing on stage. The music that you write is amazing. You're currently working on a musical in the West End.

[Bobby Richards]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

We can't tell you what it is publicly, but we can tell you that we're working on our first musical.

[Kyle Reed]

Wow.

[Abner Ramirez]

It's on The West End. It's. It will be on the West End. It's. It's not like it. We've been praying for a decade, literally asking God, at the beginning of every year, we do a dream session where we write down our dreams for the year. And for 10 years, we'd written down, we want to be a part of a musical. We want to write a musical. It finally happened, and we thought, you know, you'd get your first chance and you'd write a little thing, and then you get your second chance. This is owned by a massive production company, the ip. It's fully funded and financed, set for the West End, set for Broadway. It's like kind of the highest level. You can start at, of course, anything ever. Of course we could write the biggest trash musical ever, and they'll just cut us out and start over. But the trajectory we're on is to. Is a really big first at bat. It's like, you know, you're batting cleanup and you just got called up from the minors and it's the World Series. And so it is nerve wracking.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Is there a marriage theme to it at all? Is there. Is it relational?

[Abner Ramirez]

It is.

[Donald Miller]

How much are you allowed in the non disposal?

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah, we just can't tell you the name of it.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, fair enough.

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah. It's about relationship and what drew us to the project. There's a novel by the same name that I can't say, but it feels like it's a will they, won't they? It's clearly about these two people. And a couple pages in, I'm like, are they gonna get together or not? How much I'm gonna have to read until they get together. And then you realize quickly that it's not about the payoff of do they get married or not?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

It's about some cosmic pull that. It's reminded me of the first thing I said to Amanda after I've been waiting so long to meet you. The first thing I said to her after we hung out for a couple days was, I would marry you tomorrow. I'd be your best friend the rest of your life. I'll walk you down the aisle to marry somebody else. I don't. I don't really care. I just know I'm meant to be around you. I just feel like I'm supposed to be.

[Donald Miller]

That's what you told her?

[Abner Ramirez]

I told her day two.

[Amanda Sudano]

He also told me about his. The folder with the pictures of me.

[Kyle Reed]

You told her that?

[Amanda Sudano]

And I actually had started my own folder of him After I met him at the coffee shop to show my friend. So I was like, I actually have a folder. Wow. And that's how we knew we were meant to be. And so the story, both stalkers.

[Kyle Reed]

That's true. That's the moral of this episode.

[Abner Ramirez]

Two stalkers find each other.

[Kyle Reed]

It's great.

[Abner Ramirez]

And so this story is like. It's about that cosmic kind of pull to each other that's almost greater than romance, which I would categorize marriage as. Romance is beautiful, and it's a part of it. It's a major part of it, and you have to keep that healthy and pay attention to it. But there's so much more than just the romantic element of a marriage. And the story that we're writing this musical that we have the great privilege and honor and weight to write, is about more than just will they or won't they? It's about that cosmic pull of two people together.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And I'm not allowed to say the title of it, but does rhyme with 50 blades of 51.

[Amanda Sudano]

50 blades of 10.

[Donald Miller]

Now something rhymes with the title of the music.

[Abner Ramirez]

It's not something we.

[Kyle Reed]

We can talk, make money is. You guys just released a new album.

[Amanda Sudano]

We did.

[Abner Ramirez]

Now, tell.

[Kyle Reed]

I don't want to make.

[Donald Miller]

It's called when the War Is over, but we should say that.

[Kyle Reed]

What's the title? Why is it called that? What's the title?

[Donald Miller]

Speaking of marriage.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. As a married man, I myself, I'm like, well, there's something going on here. Tell me about this.

[Amanda Sudano]

What's the war, though? It's us against the world in it. It's not us. The war isn't between us. I love that the war is out there, and it's us fighting together. The title comes from a song on the album that was a diary entry of mine. I started having a bunch of health issues after getting Covid. We thought it was long Covid. It's not. It's something else. And it's gotten a lot better. But there was months where I was just in bed, and we didn't know what was going on. I was going to doctors all the time. And he had come out of a season of depression, which he had never dealt with in his life before, which.

[Abner Ramirez]

I didn't even believe in. I thought depression and motion sickness were both imaginary things.

[Donald Miller]

You thought motion sickness?

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah, I didn't believe in motion sickness. I remember driving to Malibu, and she'd be like, babe, you have to, like, drive slower. I'm like, why? She's like, my tummy I was like, oh, my tummy. What are you talking about?

[Amanda Sudano]

And then I got marriage works.

[Abner Ramirez]

Sorry. But then I got motion sicknesses. Like, people deal with this.

[Bobby Richards]

It's unbelievable.

[Abner Ramirez]

And depression was the same kind of thing. I'd never thought considered it being a real thing, really. I knew people had it. Just like I knew people had webbed toes or something. It's just not something I deal with.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

And then it became a debilitating crisis in my life, similar to motion sickness.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

All right. Sorry. So that was my thing was depression. Hers was a physical health crisis.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah. So it was the diary entry that I wrote because I was talking to him about it, and I was like, after, you know, a year and a half of dealing with this, even if I woke up tomorrow and my body was perfectly healthy, I'm not the same person. Like, I feel traumatized by this whole experience. And I don't know, the thread between me and, like, quote, unquote, normal Amanda, you know, the person I was before I experienced this, there's no threat anymore. Like, I feel like I'm a completely different person. I don't know. I can remember how happy she'd be doing this and that. And now, like, I'm scared doing that, those things. And even if I felt better, I think I would still feel afraid, and I would still feel sad, and I would still have this grief that I lost these years of my life. And so I wrote this little, you know, poem in my journal called when the War is over, and I brought it to Abner, and it's basically, when the war is over, will I even know? Will I be able to get back to that person that I was? Will I remember what it feels like after fighting something for so long? What it feels like to just be able to be at peace again? And that's what that song is. And then we just decided to name the album it, mostly because we wanted to name it Psilocybin. And our management said, I don't think that's a good idea.

[Donald Miller]

That might sound.

[Amanda Sudano]

Which is another song on the album. But our management was like, maybe something else. And so we were like, well, what else encapsulates kind of the season? And where these songs came out of. And when the War Is over was the one.

[Donald Miller]

How did your marriage kind of get you through It Sounds like two really, really hard times.

[Amanda Sudano]

You know, I think the amazing thing, back to our therapist, Tim Long, who's wonderful. But when Abner started. Have, you know, Abner's journey kind of started before my health. Journ so we would go to him and he would have us sit down together, even though it was kind of. At the time, it was like I was doing great and my life felt good, but he was not doing well. So therefore, we weren't doing well, and he would have us sit together. So while Abner was working through all the stuff that he was working through, I was there to support him that whole time. And so we really built this other layer of trust with one another, this other layer of support for one another, of being each other's teammate, that I think that experience really prepped us for the next part of the journey, which was my part of the journey, where he was sitting with me as I was dealing with all the things and dealing with grief and all the stuff that I was going through. And he could sit there and know how to, for lack of a better term, hold space for one another. So it really created, I think, a much deeper bond and also just an understanding. There was, for example, there was one time where I was not feeling well, which was a very normal occurrence, and I wanted him to just be with me. We were on tour. We were on the tour bus, and I was like, I just don't feel good, and, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed. And he just kind of sat with me for a second and was like, okay, well, I gotta go. And, like, went out, and they, like, went and got, you know, drinks. We're in New Orleans. They went to a jazz bar and whatever, and I'm, like, alone in my bunk. And so he came back, and I was really upset and felt, like, really alone. So we, you know, when we got back from tour, we sat with Tim and we kind of worked on it together. And it, you know, his. He started talking about the helplessness that he felt when I was not doing well. There was nothing that he could do. And so even just the thought of sitting there with me was hard and overwhelming for him because he wanted to be able to help. And I was like, well, that made me feel lonely. But even just the fact that we could go back home and go, hey, what was going on in you during that time and not let it fester and get back on the same page, it's made that much more of a difference to where now when it happens. He knows, just give me five minutes. That's really all I need. And I know, oh, this is hard for him. And it's hard for him to want to help and not be able to help, because that's his drive to do. Then we can Be back on the same page again. So it's really been for as rough of a two years as it's been. It's been an amazing two years for us emotionally together.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, a lot of growing. Yeah, it's amazing. I'm curious, Abner, when you first saw her across the room, what's changed in your mind about marriage, relationships to today? You know, it sounds like you had a beautiful picture of what marriage relationships are. How has that changed today?

[Abner Ramirez]

I saw marriage like a finish line or even relationship, like you just kind of achieved the thing, and now you have the temple, you have whatever. It's just there. It's the beginning of the race. It's the beginning of the journey. And I realized that the finish line is completely. The thought of a finish line is completely evaporated. The only finish line is toe tags and body bags. That's the only finish line. That constant growth, constant movement, like a river. We say often, we are rivers, not lakes. And we talk about that with money, with helping folks with all kinds stuff. But also relationally, we are rivers, not lakes. This thing, this. This usness doesn't just sit and fester and gather dust. You know what I mean? This usness is constantly moving, and that. That means a lot of things. That means we change and we grow as people. God forbid we stay the same. My biggest fear as a married man was that I would. That she would ever be able to say about me, that's not the man I married. Because you. You go through seasons in life. Everybody's dating, everybody gets married, everybody has kids. And then you go through the divorce season where everybody's getting divorced. And like, the big quote that I would hear when friends were going through those times was, she's just not the person I married, or, he's not the man I married anymore, and I want the man I married, not this guy. And that was like the big kind of justification to the big move on. And I. My greatest fear was to ever hear her say that. And so as we. There's a song in the album called Psilocybin, when I was deep, like, lost in my depression and couldn't really. Was having a hard time catching my breath, as it were. I came to the room in the studio where she was writing a song and asked her what song she was writing, and she said, it's actually a song for you, and it's a song about me changing. And it's essentially a song that says, you're not the man that I married. And the chorus says, but if you change. I'm changing, too. And it was the most to my core, man, and even to your question, like, what's changed about my perspective of marriage is really, you hear it from childhood. It's two becoming one. There's a oneness. There's all this stuff. But man, if it's not the truth, if that's not just the beginning of the layers of the onion, just how one marriage is meant to be, that for my wife, it's not even a love song, but it's the most romantic thing I've ever heard. If you change, I'm changing too. If you're not the man I married, then I'm not the woman you married. And we're going the same way together. We're going to take that journey together. So that's probably the biggest thing. That's amazing.

[Donald Miller]

Changed the phrase about his wife. If you ever leave me, I'm going with you. The album is when the war is Over. The band, the couple is Johnny Swim. So grateful to have you on the show.

[Abner Ramirez]

Honor to be here.

[Kyle Reed]

Now we're going to go get to.

[Donald Miller]

Listen to you guys.

[Kyle Reed]

Some music for us.

[Amanda Sudano]

It's awesome.

[Abner Ramirez]

Shot crying, thinking like a D. Never. We have Johnny sm. Thank you for your time.

[Bobby Richards]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customized tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.