Why That Worked #24: Pass/Fail—Breaking Down the Best and Worst in Branding

Summary

Marketing Made Simple Podcast Summary

Episode: Why That Worked #24: Pass/Fail—Breaking Down the Best and Worst in Branding
Release Date: June 18, 2025
Host/Author: Powered by StoryBrand
Description: Every week on Marketing Made Simple, you'll get practical tips to make your marketing easy and make it work!

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Introduction

In this episode of Marketing Made Simple, hosted by Bobby Richards and featuring Donald Miller and Kyle Reed, the hosts delve into effective and ineffective branding strategies through a new segment titled "Pass/Fail." This segment offers rapid-fire evaluations of various branding examples, providing actionable insights for listeners to implement in their own marketing efforts.

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Pass/Fail Segment

1. Shadur Sanders' NFL Draft Messaging

Timestamp: [01:37] – [07:34]

Overview:
The first topic of discussion centers around Shadur Sanders, a quarterback from Colorado who was anticipated to be a top pick in the NFL draft but ended up being selected much later than expected. The conversation focuses on Sanders' messaging and behavior during the draft process.

Donald Miller's Evaluation:
Donald criticizes Sanders for his perceived arrogance and failure to effectively communicate his value to NFL franchises. He argues that Sanders' approach suggested a desire to change the team's culture rather than integrate and contribute positively.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Miller [03:24]: "If you're not trying to change the culture, don't pick me."
• Donald Miller [05:30]: "If you're not trying to create a culture of optimism and a culture of winning and a culture of sacrifice, don't choose me."
• Donald Miller [06:48]: "Everybody's already in love with Katy Perry, but everybody falls in love with her even more."

Conclusion:
Fail was assigned to Shadur Sanders for his ineffective messaging that focused more on personal change rather than team collaboration, leading to a negative perception among teams.

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2. Katy Perry Going to Space

Timestamp: [09:05] – [11:03]

Overview:
The discussion shifts to Katy Perry's campaign involving her trip to space. The conversation examines how her messaging was framed and its impact on her brand.

Donald Miller's Evaluation:
Donald expresses disappointment with the messaging, feeling it was self-centered despite the noble experience. He suggests that making the experience about personal growth rather than the broader impact led to a less effective branding message.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Miller [09:08]: "Everybody falls in love with Katrina. Everybody's already in love with Katy Perry, but everybody falls in love with her even more."
• Donald Miller [10:41]: "When you make it about you, you fail unless you make it about you delivering value to somebody else."

Conclusion:
Fail was given to Katy Perry's space campaign for overly focusing on her personal experience rather than the value and broader message it could have conveyed.

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3. Provocative Brand Messaging

Timestamp: [11:03] – [16:17]

Overview:
The segment explores the effectiveness of using provocative language in brand messaging, citing examples like Liquid Death and Cards Against Humanity.

Examples Discussed:

• Liquid Death: "Murder your thirst."
• Cards Against Humanity: "A party game for horrible people."
• Patagonia: "Don't buy this jacket."

Donald Miller's Evaluation:
Initially skeptical, Donald acknowledges the success of such provocative messaging in gaining attention and differentiating brands in a crowded market. He highlights the importance of understanding the target audience and ensuring that the provocative language aligns with the brand's identity and purpose.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Miller [11:54]: "I would have given Liquid Death a fail, but I'm obviously wrong."
• Donald Miller [13:53]: "There’s a place to place. Provocative."
• Donald Miller [14:59]: "It's just because now you go, this guy isn't a problem. This guy's an asset."

Conclusion:
Pass was awarded to the use of provocative language in branding, recognizing its effectiveness in capturing attention and creating a memorable brand presence when executed thoughtfully.

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EGC vs. UGC: Employee-Generated Content vs. User-Generated Content

Timestamp: [17:14] – [27:50]

Overview:
The hosts discuss the emerging trend of EGC (Employee-Generated Content) versus the traditional UGC (User-Generated Content) in marketing strategies. They evaluate which type of content builds more trust and engages audiences effectively.

Donald Miller's Evaluation:
Donald emphasizes that while both EGC and UGC have their merits, UGC typically garners more trust from consumers. He cites examples like Amazon reviews and the influence of authentic user feedback over company-produced content. Additionally, he illustrates how UGC can provide valuable insights into customer experiences and preferences.

Notable Quotes:

• Donald Miller [18:07]: "If it's a product description, I'm probably going to read that. But listen, we all read it with a grain of salt."
• Donald Miller [25:48]: "If you have anything in which you could show, if you could say to your customers, send us a 15 second video of how you use this product."
• Donald Miller [26:47]: "What a great friggin idea. And then every day you could actually post that."

Key Points:

• Trust Factor: UGC is generally more trusted than EGC as it reflects genuine customer experiences.
• Engagement: UGC can enhance engagement by involving customers directly in the brand narrative.
• Content Quality Control: Effective UGC campaigns require clear guidelines to ensure high-quality submissions.

Examples Discussed:

• James Clear's Approach: Using balanced reviews to inform and improve product offerings.
• Employee Campaign Example: An intern's social media campaign tied to job retention, highlighting the potential pitfalls of EGC when misaligned with brand goals.

Conclusion:
User-Generated Content (UGC) receives a Pass over Employee-Generated Content (EGC) due to its higher trustworthiness and ability to authentically engage audiences. However, the hosts acknowledge that a balanced approach, incorporating both UGC and EGC when appropriate, can be beneficial.

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Insights and Actionable Takeaways

1. Effective Messaging is Crucial:

   • Avoid self-centered messaging. Focus on how your product or service delivers value to your audience.
   • Quote:
     Donald Miller [10:41]: "When you make it about you, you fail unless you make it about you delivering value to somebody else."

2. Provocative Language Can Enhance Brand Recognition:

   • Utilize bold and unconventional language to stand out, ensuring it aligns with your brand identity.
   • Quote:
     Donald Miller [13:53]: "There’s a place to place. Provocative."

3. Leverage User-Generated Content for Trust and Engagement:

   • Encourage and curate genuine customer feedback and experiences to build credibility.
   • Quote:
     Kyle Reed [20:17]: "...if you have anything like that, send it to us now. You need to do quality control and Edit it and put bumpers on it and things like that."

4. Clear Guidelines for Content Campaigns:

   • Establish precise rules and processes for UGC initiatives to maintain content quality and relevance.
   • Quote:
     Donald Miller [25:16]: "It has to be spelled out very, very clearly. There need to sort of be processes and rules around it."

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Conclusion

This episode of Marketing Made Simple provides valuable insights into the strengths and weaknesses of various branding and messaging strategies. By evaluating real-world examples through the "Pass/Fail" segment, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed offer practical advice on crafting effective marketing campaigns that resonate with audiences and build trust. Key takeaways emphasize the importance of value-driven messaging, the strategic use of provocative language, and the superior impact of user-generated content in fostering authentic engagement.

Listeners are encouraged to apply these lessons to enhance their own marketing efforts, ensuring their messages are clear, compelling, and customer-centric.

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Note: For more actionable marketing tips and strategies, subscribe to the Marketing Made Simple podcast and follow the latest episodes on the StoryBrand YouTube channel or your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Bobby Richards]

Hey, hero makers, it's podcast producer Bobby Richards. I'm jumping in to share with you a new episode of our brand new podcast, why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI with Donald Miller back in the host seat. Now, since we launched Marketing Made simple, we've been so grateful to have everybody tune in each week to learn how to make your marketing easy and make it work. Which is exactly why we're sharing new episodes of the why that Worked podcast here. In the old Marketing Made simple feed, each episode of the new show is going to deliver actionable insights and key takeaways that are all designed so you can implement them to help make whatever you're working on work. If you want to catch new episodes early, you can watch or listen every Monday. To watch the show, just go subscribe to the StoryBrand YouTube channel. And to listen, go follow why that worked presented by StoryBrand AI wherever you enjoy your podcasts. All right, that's it from me. So grateful you're here and enjoy this week's episode of why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI.

[Donald Miller]

Foreign.

[Bobby Richards]

You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends, or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed.

[Kyle Reed]

Today we're kicking off a brand new segment we're calling pass or fail. These are rapid fire takes. I'm going to ask you, Don, to give a pass or fail grade and then we're going to get into your answer and the reason why.

[Donald Miller]

On messaging.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes, and what we've learned about in messaging is that any message campaign can either break trust, break sales, reputation, but.

[Donald Miller]

It can also grow your brand or just be ignored.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes, and, but also, when you get it right, it's super powerful. Sometimes you make big choices in your messaging that pays off and sometimes it sinks.

[Donald Miller]

And here's what everybody's going to get out of it. They're going to be able to apply this to their messages pretty easily.

[Kyle Reed]

Absolutely. So let's get into the game, Don. Recently the NFL draft took place and there was a hot. There was a hot topic. Seahawks. That is, I don't think the. Maybe the audience isn't up. They're not insiders. Like Atlanta Hawk.

[Donald Miller]

Falcons.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, the Seahawks. The Seahawks of sorts. Go Rams. And so there was a big kind of narrative that was Taking place over the NFL draft. Well, first off, did you watch the NFL draft?

[Donald Miller]

I watched a little bit.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

I watched like clips mostly.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes. So the big topic of conversation was one in particular. Player by the name of Shadur Sanders.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Quarterback out of Colorado.

[Donald Miller]

Yep. Deion Sanders.

[Kyle Reed]

Deion Sanders, son. And the narrative.

[Donald Miller]

Good, good. Effective quarterback.

[Kyle Reed]

Very good. One of the top college quarter. Absolutely. But the narrative that started to develop after day one was this guy's dropping in the draft. Where is he going?

[Donald Miller]

I think there were four quarterbacks who went ahead of him.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. And I think he was.

[Donald Miller]

He was probably anticipated to be maybe second, maybe the third quarterback. And I think he was fifth, but 144th in the draft.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. I mean, Mel Kuiper, who's like one of the leading experts, had him as his number one quarterback. Wow. So for him to drop that far was obviously a lot of controversy. So, Don, pass or fail? Shadur Sanders and how he handles himself. But how he handled himself, you know.

[Donald Miller]

If you play the clip, if you just. That that one clip that. That got, that got. Did not help him promoted or whatever, it didn't help him at all. Let's just play that clip. That's the plan. If that's not what you're trying to do, don't get me. If you ain't trying to change the franchise or the culture, don't get me. So you should know, history repeats itself over and over and over. And I've done it over and over and over. So it should be no question why NFL franchise should pick him. Certainly he was coached on how to do this. And somebody told him, in my opinion, somebody told him that you've got to be cocky. You got to be arrogant because it's associated with confidence. And the team leader needs to be confident and cocky. And that's going to boost you up in the draft and make you worth more. I think that's probably what happened because that's such a huge screw up.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

All right, first of all, let's just look at this from an owner's perspective, a general manager's perspective, and a coach's perspective. If you're not trying to change the culture, don't pick me. Okay, first of all, what does that mean? Right. Change the culture how? And also, that's not your job. Your job is not to create a culture. That's not your job. Your job is to come into a culture. Now, you're probably going to affect that culture, but the general manager is basically hearing somebody say, I'm gonna take your job. And I'm gonna do your job. That's a really dumb thing to say. The other thing is, it's so vague. Let's just change it a little bit to where it works. If you're not trying to create a culture of optimism and a culture of winning and a culture of sacrifice, don't choose me.

[Kyle Reed]

That's right. Totally different.

[Donald Miller]

That's the difference between vague and telling me what I'm gonna get. It's also the difference between saying, I'm going to benefit your culture. Listen, people will say that Sanders dropped to the fourth of his round, 144th in the draft, that he dropped because of his arrogance. He didn't drop because of his arrogance. He dropped because of his selfishness. This guy's a diva. This guy's gonna be trouble. This guy is all about himself. This guy wants control. This guy's a narcissist. Not worth it, not worth the risk. And he could have, with words, he could have mitigated all of that damage. Right, all of that damage. For instance, instead of saying, everybody knows history repeats itself, you see me again, undefined. So if you would have said, look, I have a history of creating a cohesive team that gets behind me. And the way you do that is you have their backs and they have my back. And any team that I go to, they're going to figure out really quick, I'm going to take a bullet for you if you're wearing the same jersey as me. Number two, number three, number four in the draft.

[Kyle Reed]

Draft, Yep. Absolutely.

[Donald Miller]

Like, it's just because now you go, this guy isn't a problem. This guy's an asset.

[Kyle Reed]

Yep.

[Donald Miller]

For instance, if you would have said, any team that is not really genuinely committed to winning a Super bowl and to filling up 5, 6 consecutive seasons of sold out games, if you aren't committed to that, I beg of you, pass me up. Just passion and you know who you are. Pass me up. I want to win Super Bowls. I want to go into a town and have kids, say, you're my hero. And you know, it's just a different way. What he's saying is, I'm a badass. Instead of saying, I'm going to make you a badass.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, yeah. Difference between individual versus team.

[Donald Miller]

That's right. And everybody knows this is a team sport.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. It's interesting. You know, they do all this prep for the draft. Right. Practice their 40, bench throw, all the things that they've got to do to get ready. It sounds like they also should be doing messaging campaign training but it's true.

[Donald Miller]

Listen, he got some bad sound bites in there, and somebody coached him. I don't think you. Somebody said, this is the attitude you got to have. And I agree. I agree. I think, look, being cocky and confident and even to some degree, arrogant, that's probably decent advice. But about what?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, your team, not your team.

[Donald Miller]

It's about the ability to deliver some piece of value to the general manager, to the coach, to the fans in the stands, to all of that.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes. And, you know, living into our tagline for this podcast where we give some business thoughts, I actually think if you think about. We've all been with those brands who have kind of almost like they're apologizing for what they sell, you know, but then we've also been with the ones who are so arrogant and so over the top that you can tell it's about the person or it's about, you know, their ego. I think there's a fine line here where you can come in as it's about the customer, but we're confident in the solution we offer.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And I think so many people get one of those right. They don't get both often when you can get both right. As far as going, we are here to serve you, and the solution we have is what you need.

[Donald Miller]

Okay, you didn't ask me, but let me give another. Let me give another fail. That is akin to this.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And that is Katy Perry going to space.

[Kyle Reed]

I love this one.

[Donald Miller]

Right?

[Kyle Reed]

Air quotes.

[Donald Miller]

First of all.

[Kyle Reed]

Air quotes. If it happened.

[Donald Miller]

First of all, let me just confess, I really like Katy Perry. I think she's just a fun human being. Her songs are catchy. I think, you know, it's unfortunate that some soundbites, you know, got out there. Probably very similar to Sanders in the sense it's probably a fun hang, like a really good person. And so. But, you know, everybody can redeem themselves. But the way that those talking points came out was, I had an experience you'll never have. You don't understand the world until you've seen it from space. How many of us are going to see the world from space? None of us. And it became about instead of, this was an honor, and I got to tell you, it made me feel really small. And you can be a pop star and be the king of the world and realize this isn't about me, and it's the experience that I had. And this makes me actually want to serve the world and do my little bit before I die. And it's a perspective that I'll never forget. And I'm very, very thankful that I was given this. I certainly didn't deserve it, but I'm coming back feeling smaller than I've ever felt in my life. Everybody falls in love with Katrina. Everybody's already in love with Katy Perry, but everybody falls in love with her even more.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. And, you know, for the purposes of this new segment, pass or fail, it feels like when you play the hero, you fail. When you play.

[Donald Miller]

When you make it about you, you fail unless you make it about you delivering value to somebody else. And you can be cocky and you can be arrogant and you can do that all day long, but you're delivering. I am unbelievably confident that I can deliver value to you.

[Kyle Reed]

Yep.

[Donald Miller]

Unbelievably confident that I can deliver value to you. And I think that sort of confidence is fine.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Okay, so topic number two. Pass. Fail. Using provocative brand messaging.

[Donald Miller]

Provocative brand messaging.

[Kyle Reed]

So using provocative words. And let me give you a couple of examples. Maybe that's the funny thing is I know you well enough. I knew that's immediately.

[Donald Miller]

Because that is actually a whole episode we could do on do you cuss or not.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. And there's. I actually just got a book the other day where they used the F word in the title, I think, for the provocative nature of it, you know. Okay, so let me give you a couple examples. So Liquid Death. Have you heard of Liquid Death?

[Donald Miller]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

Drink. Their tagline is murder your thirst. Patagonia says, don't buy this jacket. Cards against humanity says a party game for horrible people. So breaking messaging rules, using provocative language in your messaging. Pass or fail?

[Donald Miller]

Listen, I've got to be brutally honest here. I would have given Liquid Death a fail, but I'm obviously wrong.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

So I'm admitting that I'm not, you know, I'm not. Well, they won. So let me say, why fail from.

[Kyle Reed]

Their messaging or fail from the name and product idea?

[Donald Miller]

To me, first of all, I'm a 53 year old man who wants to live to be 90. So liquid death is not interesting to me. So maybe I'm not the target market for this. So let's give it a nuanced review in terms of standing out in the market and sort of competing against Red Bull. Fantastic.

[Kyle Reed]

Yep. Pass.

[Donald Miller]

Pass. In terms of kids riding around on their BMX bike trying to do backflips. Pass.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Which is, you know, arguably their target market. What was shocking to me is like I. I saw somebody drinking it or. No, they had it. They had it. I think I Was on a podcast and they had like, you want a liquid death? I didn't realize. It's like tea.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, exactly. It's like water.

[Donald Miller]

Like, why is this called liquid death? I don't understand. It was actually confusing to me, and so I would have given it a fail, but obviously it was so provocative. Willie Nelson used to say, don't read your press. Weigh it. And this is in the age of newspapers and magazines. And what he was saying is, just make sure they're talking about you. And I think I would have to give them, certainly in hindsight, a massive pass in grade A on just getting attention and then a little bit of a fail on involving the nuance of your actual drink. And I thought it was Red Bull on steroids. Like, Red Bull. That's going to make your heart beat. So that's where I just go, but listen, I'm not the target market. In hindsight, I think what everybody can learn here is bringing attention to your brand, adding some drama. Drama is really, really good.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

And they did an effective job bringing attention to the brand. What was the other one? Liquid Death.

[Kyle Reed]

And Cards Against Humanity was a party game for horrible people.

[Donald Miller]

Love it.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, that's pretty good.

[Donald Miller]

Love it. It's very. Yeah. Even I would be like, no, that's a pretty fun differentiator, you know, identifying the fact that this is gonna be an interesting night.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And it's gonna kind of bring out the worst in us. Just says entertainment. And not surprising that that worked at all.

[Kyle Reed]

There's something to be said, too, about this passing. You know, I think it sounds like you're giving a passing of using kind of, you know, bigger.

[Donald Miller]

I'm saying there's a place to place. Provocative.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. But I think there's something you said about also using insider language for your marketing. So kind of understanding your target market and kind of how they talk or how they speak or who they are and using that exaggerative language to grab their attention seems to be a winning formula for messaging.

[Donald Miller]

Let's actually also say one thing about the Cards against humanity card game for horrible people. There's another couple magic words in there besides horrible people. And it's card game.

[Kyle Reed]

Game. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

That they actually said what it was designed for horrible people. Probably doesn't work very well.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Cards Against Humanity designed. A card game says everybody knows what a card game is. So they say it's this, but different.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, same, but different.

[Donald Miller]

We talked about this earlier, that anytime you can have a message that is almost a sound bite or a tagline that is the same but different. For instance, we did an episode on slate trucks. The Mr. Potato Head of. Of vehicles is the same. It's a thing that you attach things to, but it's a car. It's a card game. But it's for horrible people. Right. I mean that to me, that's extremely effective. One of the better taglines I think of all time. And it's a game, so it's not like it's a dentist. Right. I mean, veneers for horrible people. It doesn't quite have the same.

[Kyle Reed]

Or drink for horrible people.

[Donald Miller]

A gun for horrible people.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, exactly. Okay, so that.

[Donald Miller]

Although I think a drink for horrible people might actually. Might actually.

[Kyle Reed]

Honestly. Okay, so I'm going to give that a pass. I hear Pass. Of finding provocative language.

[Bobby Richards]

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[Kyle Reed]

Topic number three is there's a new trend going on. It's called EGC versus ugc. Now let me explain what that is.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, I have no idea. I've never heard of this.

[Kyle Reed]

EGC is employee generated content versus the traditional user generated content in your marketing. Okay, so blunt reaction, pass or fail. Using more employee generated content versus user generated content. Is that a good idea?

[Donald Miller]

Oh no, you can't. I mean, I can't pass or fail that, right? Both.

[Kyle Reed]

Both.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. I mean, employee generated content is, you know, that's what every company is kind of doing. If you have a podcast, it's employee generated content.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, so then let me bring it down a little bit.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Which one builds, you think, more trust then? Do you think it's more peer reviews or kind of more insider employee content?

[Donald Miller]

It's a dance between the both, but definitely user over employee. Yeah, because I will trust an Amazon review more than I'll Trust the copy that the company is putting out. So if it's a product description, I'm probably going to read that. But listen, we all read it with a grain of salt. We know they have a vested interest in this. This person who bought it does not have a vested interest. Listen, I talked to James Clear, spent a weekend with him and he said that when he wrote before he wrote Atomic Habits, he actually went and found every book on habits, goal setting, productivity, and printed out the three star reviews of every one of those books. Because he said, five stars, you love it no matter what. One star, you used to date their sister and now they hate you. Right, Whatever. There's some sort of personal hatred going on with the one star reviews. But three stars he said, indicates I wanted to like this product, but I didn't. And so he made, just like James Clear, he made sort of a list of everything that people had a legitimate complaint about about productivity books. And then he countered that with Atomic Habits. He made sure that they weren't able to complain about that in his book. And that is the power of sort of user generated feedback and even product creation. That's the authority that it sort of gives. I'm rambling here, but I think that if I read something from a user, it gives much more authority on whether or not I'm gonna like or enjoy the product than it does by the person who works for the company.

[Kyle Reed]

There also seems to be a distinguishing factor here because sometimes I think employee generated content can lean into the wrong problem that the product is trying to solve versus user generated. So the James Clear analogy is good because if an employee or someone on his team was trying to find out what the market needed, they might not be hearing as much as the user themselves who are experiencing the problem then he's trying to solve with a book.

[Donald Miller]

Right.

[Kyle Reed]

So it feels like if you, you know, you could kind of get in missing the mark a little bit on some of the content because it's very easy to kind of get caught up in the, you know, in your own world as you're making employee generated stuff. Did you see that campaign though recently where the intern was like, hey, if I don't get X amount of followers.

[Donald Miller]

I only heard about it. Can you explain it to our.

[Kyle Reed]

That's. I'm probably shouldn't have brought up because I don't have a ton of info on it. I just remember there was a campaign, I think it was like in the fall of last year.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Where there's a social media campaign where the. Basically this Girl was saying, hey, I'm on an internship. My bosses said I can have a job if I get so many likes or so many follows on this post. I'm sure someone is listening is right now is like, it's this campaign. You're, you know, so leave a comment so we can go watch it. But basically they, they embrace this kind of employee generated content to advertise their product and then crowdsourced out to keep her job. And they, they put in, you know, she had a name. I heard.

[Donald Miller]

It didn't have anything to do with the product, really.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, that's true. I don't. I thought it had something to do with the brand or something around that. But basically it took a massive life.

[Donald Miller]

Let's analyze that. What that did was created a story loop.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

It opened a story loop and it gave the audience, the body politic, power over whether or not something happens that's quite urgent. This woman's gonna lose her job unless we all do X. Yeah. And that is always going to be enticing when you hand the customers or the masses power. It's a dunk tank, right. You get to dunk this person or not dunk this person or whatever. And that's always going to generate a lot of interest. And I'm sure that this young woman, I haven't seen it, but was quite winsome and fun and that sort of thing. Actually, true story. I used to own the website savethekitten.com okay. I was writing a book called May's Boy. It was a piece of fiction. One of the things that May's Boy did was he had a crush on this girl who really cared about an issue. And so he got a kitten and he put the kitten in a slingshot headed toward an attic fan. And he released it and said, if you don't give a million dollars to this girl's charity, I'm going to kill this cat. He used Save the Kitten to do it. And what I was gonna do is when I released the novel, I was actually gonna get a looping video of this kitten and a slingshot heading toward the action fan. And every month I was gonna put a new actual nonprofit up there. So every month we would raise money. Of course, there's never any cat. I don't know where this story, I told this story.

[Kyle Reed]

I have no idea how we are, where we're at.

[Donald Miller]

Except it. What it does is it opens a story loop and it gives the, the people control. And also quite provocative.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

Right. I mean, like people would be up in Arms. And meanwhile, it's a looping video of 15 seconds. Right. Nothing happened to the cat. But now I get it as a story on the podcast. But the idea is like, you know, check several boxes. Brings a lot of attention to something. Now if you were the nonprofit and you did that, forget it. I mean, you're done. But if you're like, you know, Banksy and you're doing that and you're trying to channel marks, it brings a lot of attention to human trafficking and, you know, whatever you want to bring attention to. So opens a story loop. Something bad is going to happen unless you take action stakes. And that's what this gal did. And that's why that worked.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, so I'd be curious at some point off this would be business owners or brands or whoever's listening to this. How would, how would you advise them on going about generating user generated, like soliciting user generated. But then also there is a trend going on with employee generated content about what they do or what, you know.

[Donald Miller]

There'S people here, storyboard people love reality shows. And so I think if you can do some content that feels like a reality show inside your office, you know, I think, yeah, I think it's seen that work. It's really fun. You know, it would be fun. Like if we were to do that, we would probably bring like Bran or Dagny or Josh, our marketing guy, Cooper is one of our producers who's really smart. How fun would it be to do like a beat Bobby Flay thing to see if like the three of them can come up with better messaging than me than you? Yeah, now you got an underdog. And sadly, I would probably be the villain as a 53 year old man, you know, and their boss, nobody likes the boss or the expert. And how fun would that be?

[Kyle Reed]

And have the audience vote and have.

[Donald Miller]

The audience, they have to promise to be objective. You can't just vote against Don.

[Kyle Reed]

And you know, there has to be some stakes with some money or something like that.

[Donald Miller]

We literally just created a show. Well, we created, you know, employee generated content that feels like a reality show and has stakes. We just created it right here. We're not going to do it because they're going to beat me. But I got to solidify my.

[Kyle Reed]

What would be the.

[Donald Miller]

I think in terms of user. If you have anything in which you could show, if you could say to your customers, send us a 15 second video of how you use this product. If you have anything like that, send it to us now. You need to do quality control and Edit it and put bumpers on it and things like that. But that could be really great examples of user generated content. I mean I just bought a $150 knife sharpener from one of our customers. Our customers.

[Kyle Reed]

Warthong.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, Warthog. And how fun would it be for them? They've got my email address, they've got my mailing address. Email us a video of you sharpening your knife and then cutting something and this dramatically increases the chance we'll use it. Keep it to under 15 seconds, only sharpen the knife, only show the last time and then show what you're cutting with it. And if we like it, we'll tag you. Give us a way that we can tag you. What a great friggin idea. And then every day you could actually post that. Yeah, right. Let's say that you create wraps for cars. You might say to every car place that does wraps, send us a video of before and after of cars and then we'll tag your auto body shop in the video when we send it out. Anybody in Nashville would see this and go, okay, I guess that's where I can go get my car wrapped. In fact, I like that color.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And basically we're promoting you while you're promoting our wrap. That's a great example of user generated content. But you know, it all has to be. If you're going to come up with a campaign like that, it has to be spelled out very, very clearly. There need to sort of be processes and rules around it and you know, that way you're not getting garbage, you know, 10 minute videos about how we wrap this car.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. And you know, I think there's some great examples too. I've seen this done well online where you have, you know, user generated content. Social media is a natural place for that, for people to submit questions.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And then you can answer. But I've also seen a newer trend where employees in the company are going to the boss or the marketing director, you know, that person who's kind of has some authority and asking them a question about, you know, I've seen it like with plastic surgeons like should you eat this or should you, you know, use this product? And it's a good way to include both it's user and its employee.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

So okay, so from a, you know, pass fail standpoint on what.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, I can't choose between employee or user.

[Kyle Reed]

What tells a better.

[Donald Miller]

Pass. Pass.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

I was going to say end user. Pass pass makes sense.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, great.

[Donald Miller]

Listen, if you're not trying to change your culture. Don't hire Don Miller.

[Bobby Richards]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customized tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.