Why That Worked #28: John Mark McMillan—How to Make Promotion a Part of the Creative Process

Summary

Podcast Summary: Marketing Made Simple

Episode: Why That Worked #28: John Mark McMillan—How to Make Promotion a Part of the Creative Process
Release Date: July 16, 2025
Host/Author: Powered by StoryBrand
Guest: John Mark McMillan
Duration: 44 minutes

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Introduction

In this episode of Marketing Made Simple, hosts Donald Miller and Kyle Reed welcome acclaimed musician John Mark McMillan to discuss the intersection of art and marketing. The conversation delves into how artists can seamlessly integrate promotion into their creative processes, fostering authentic connections with their audience.

John Mark McMillan’s Artistic Journey

Kyle Reed begins by providing a backstory on John Mark McMillan, highlighting his two-decade-long career and extensive discography. [01:24]

John Mark McMillan reflects on his prolific output:

“I have them all up on my wall and it's kind of mind-blowing. And then like, when I'm coming up with a set list, I have to pick from like 120 songs.” [02:19]

Merging Art and Promotion

The discussion shifts to the critical juncture where McMillan realized that art and promotion cannot be separate entities. [04:01]

John Mark McMillan shares a pivotal moment:

“I reached a point where I realized that the two can't be separate, that promoting has to be part of the art itself, has to be an extension of the art itself.” [04:16]

He elaborates on taking control of his business vision after parting ways with his business manager, which led him to discover the StoryBrand podcast. This revelation was transformative, helping him articulate his purpose and vision:

“My vision is I want to curate transcendent moments where human beings can have a conversation with God about their place in the world. I do that through music.” [06:50]

Crafting Authentic Connections through Music

McMillan emphasizes the importance of creating music that resonates on both conscious and subconscious levels. [10:02]

He explains:

“Music is the way we practice not being alone in the world... It makes you feel connected to something.” [10:15]

The hosts discuss how authenticity in messaging fosters meaningful relationships with listeners. McMillan adds:

“If you can help people figure themselves out a little bit, even if they don't know you're doing that, they will share it and they'll support you.” [12:05]

Social Media and Marketing Strategies

Transitioning to the marketing side, McMillan shares his approach to social media as an extension of his music. [20:27]

He outlines his strategy:

“I see the strategy as, like, a frame. The form had to change. But the idea stays the same.” [08:16]

McMillan discusses the balance between creating attention and fostering connection:

“A viral moment is an opportunity, build connection with people.” [21:49]

He highlights the importance of vulnerability in storytelling to engage his audience effectively:

“I'm telling my story in a hopefully somewhat vulnerable way that opens up the door for someone to see themselves in what I'm doing.” [11:01]

Creating and Articulating Musical Feelings

The conversation delves into McMillan’s songwriting process, emphasizing the role of emotions and surrender over control. [37:01]

John Mark McMillan shares his experience:

“The good ones always begin in that little bit of mysterious place of surrender where you're like, what do you want to say?” [42:43]

He recounts a transformative period post-breakup where his most resonant songs emerged from a place of personal vulnerability:

“People connected to those songs because I was writing songs of surrender, as the other songs were songs of control.” [41:55]

Balancing Authenticity and Marketing

McMillan discusses the evolution of his public persona and comfort with fame. Initially resistant to self-promotion, he now views interactions with fans as meaningful connections rather than personal validations:

“When they come up to me, they're not really coming up to me... They want to express that they've had this experience.” [35:20]

He emphasizes creating an environment where listeners can find themselves through his music:

“I'm hoping I'm creating an environment where people can find themselves, you know, partly because I'm kind of finding myself in the music as well.” [33:22]

Conclusion

John Mark McMillan’s insights reveal the intricate balance between maintaining artistic integrity and embracing strategic promotion. By integrating marketing into his creative process, he fosters deep, authentic connections with his audience, ensuring his music resonates and endures.

Key Takeaways:

• Integration of Art and Promotion: Successful artists merge their creative and promotional efforts to maintain authenticity.
• Authentic Storytelling: Vulnerability in messaging fosters meaningful connections with the audience.
• Strategic Use of Social Media: Treating social platforms as extensions of the artistic expression can enhance engagement.
• Emotional Resonance in Music: Creating music that connects on emotional levels ensures long-term listener loyalty.
• Evolving Public Persona: Embracing interactions with fans as connections rather than personal endorsements enhances an artist’s relatability.

Notable Quotes:

• “I want to curate transcendent moments where human beings can have a conversation with God about their place in the world. I do that through music.” — John Mark McMillan [06:50]
• “Music is the way we practice not being alone in the world... It makes you feel connected to something.” — John Mark McMillan [10:15]
• “The good ones always begin in that little bit of mysterious place of surrender where you're like, what do you want to say?” — John Mark McMillan [42:43]

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For more insights and actionable marketing strategies, subscribe to the Marketing Made Simple podcast and follow John Mark McMillan on Instagram @johnmarkmcmillen or visit johnmarkmcmillen.com.

Transcript

[Bobby Richards]

Hey, hero makers, it's podcast producer Bobby Richards. I'm jumping in to share with you a new episode of our brand new podcast, why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI with Donald Miller back in the host seat. Now, since we launched Marketing Made simple, we've been so grateful to have everybody tune in each week to learn how to make your marketing easy and make it work. Which is exactly why we're sharing new episodes of the why that Worked podcast here. In the old Marketing Made simple feed, each episode of the new show is going to deliver actionable insights and key takeaways that are all designed so you can implement them to help make whatever you're working on work. If you want to catch new episodes early, you can watch or listen every Monday. To watch the show, just go subscribe to the StoryBrand YouTube channel. And to listen, go follow why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI wherever you enjoy your podcasts. All right, that's it from me. So grateful you're here and enjoy this week's episode of why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI.

[Donald Miller]

Foreign.

[Bobby Richards]

You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends, or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed.

[Kyle Reed]

John markmanmillon. We're so excited to have you here in the studio with us and to talk about this important topic of art, messaging, music, social media, all the things. We invited you here today because not only am I a fan of your work, I've followed you for a long time, but I think you're making some great music, but also doing some really interesting things online. Let me give people a little bit of a backstory to your career. You've been doing music for 20 years.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Was reading 10. 10 albums. 10 plus albums. Probably a lot.

[John Mark McMillan]

You've done a bunch.

[Donald Miller]

That sounds like a marathon.

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, man. Well, 20 years.

[Donald Miller]

Do you believe it, though? I mean, because you probably feel like you've created three, but then you look back and go, am I. Have I been at it this long? I feel like that with books, you know, it's like it takes a long time to write this many books. I must be very old. I guess that's what I'm getting.

[John Mark McMillan]

No, it does. No, he's calling you old is what.

[Kyle Reed]

He was saying right now.

[Donald Miller]

I was Trying not to.

[Kyle Reed]

It was political.

[Donald Miller]

Resonate. Political.

[John Mark McMillan]

No, it. This weird. I have them all up on my wall and it's. It's kind of mind blowing. And then like, when I'm coming up with a set list, I have to pick from like 120 songs.

[Donald Miller]

And I mean, we're getting off track because we gotta get back to messaging, how to message yourself as an artist. This is great, but how much of that does the audience choose? And you know what I mean by that? There's songs they. They have to hear.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I do try and make sure I'm doing like the top, you know, a handful of the top 10 Spotify songs. And I wanna make sure that people. But it's hard. It's actually really difficult because I have fans from different eras now, and so I got to pick to make sure.

[Donald Miller]

You and Taylor Swift.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, I know. Yeah. So it's tough, I think.

[Kyle Reed]

You know, John, Mark, when we're thinking about this conversation, there's something interesting that I noticed about you. With being in music for so long, there has to be many moments as far as an artist starting out and kind of thinking what my career is going to be. There's. There's this side I've heard you talking a little bit earlier about. You know, you're just focused on the art and there's got to come moments in your career where you've kind of got to figure out, where am I going with this? What am I doing with this? One of the questions I want to ask you was, is there's any in particular moments of your career where it moved from. I'm making art, but I also have to figure out for ways for people to hear this art. Is there any in particular story that pops out to you where you kind of had to figure out like, I'm going to. This is going to be a career, I'm going to keep going.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, definitely. I think early on there's a moment when I felt like, hey, I'm the artist. I'm going to make the stuff. And then I had a business team and y' all are going to see. Sell the stuff and I'm just gonna make it and then y' all are gonna put it out there, right?

[Donald Miller]

That's called a 20 something. It is. I was that guy too. Yeah, I'm very curious about that. I mean, did. Because, you know, the artists who have actually stuck around and made it have had to figure out how to promote themselves, which is a very uncomfortable thing for artists to do.

[John Mark McMillan]

It is, yeah. I think for me, I reached a point where I realized that the two can't be separate, that promoting has to be part of the art itself, has to be an extension of the art itself. And actually, I did have a moment. It's years ago when. When I'd been working with a. I had a business manager, and he and I did some really great stuff together. And for whatever reason, the relationship started to fall apart, and we ended up parting ways, and I ended up realizing, like, oh, now I have to manage myself. And it was also one of those moments where, like, do I want to continue even doing music at all? And if I am going to continue, how do I do this? He had all the vision for the business side of what I was doing, and I had none of it. And so I told my wife, we had these long talks. I told her, if I'm going to take another shot at this, I need to go to school. So I started going to a coffee shop and listening to podcasts all day and making notes.

[Donald Miller]

Very cool.

[John Mark McMillan]

And one of the podcasts was the StoryBrand podcast.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, you're kidding.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yes. No, absolutely. 100%.

[Donald Miller]

Glad to be part of that.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah. No, it honestly was formational for me in that time of my life and my business, because I realized I have to merge the business and the art. It has to come under one vision. It can't be two separate visions. So I spent days trying to write out my, you know, my purpose and my vision statement. And, like, I had to articulate, why am I doing this? Right. And I realized during that moment, I couldn't say why I was doing it. I mean, I probably knew deep down why I was doing it, but. But to be the leader on the business side and on the art side, there has to be some cohesion. There has to be a vision that they.

[Donald Miller]

Both to feel a sense of mission and to articulate that mission are two different things.

[John Mark McMillan]

Two different things.

[Donald Miller]

Not that you're not on a mission. It's just my gut is on a mission.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Donald Miller]

100%.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And so you had to figure out how to articulate that.

[John Mark McMillan]

I did.

[Donald Miller]

Was this an internal sort of compass that you were trying to create, or was it something that you were going to share with the world? This is my mission as an artist.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah. I think it began as an internal compass. I mean, I needed an internal compass because I wasn't sure where I was going or what I was going to do. You know, I had this business partner who did a really good job of helping me figure out what I was going to do, and I sort of offloaded all of that to him, you know. Then when I didn't have that anymore, I had to figure out how to navigate, you know, in a world where I had to be the leader, you know? And so it began as an internal compass, but I've used it, and it's actually nice because when I don't know what to do in a different area, I'm like, how does it line up with my vision?

[Donald Miller]

What is your vision?

[John Mark McMillan]

My vision is I want to curate transcendent moments where human beings can have a conversation with God about their place in the world. I do that through music.

[Donald Miller]

Wow. That's very. That seems like that was a lot to put together. Very succinct. It was.

[Kyle Reed]

And you wrote that before AI was.

[Donald Miller]

And it's also. That's impressive. It's literally just you and the Dalai Lama. Pete, in there.

[John Mark McMillan]

That's it.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Just the four of you.

[John Mark McMillan]

It is. I know. There we go.

[Donald Miller]

That's three. Three. God. See, I was including God. You. You counted them out? I did.

[Kyle Reed]

Well, I was trying to. The three and one.

[Donald Miller]

That's very. That's really quite beautiful, though. And it's. It's much more than just a, you know, entertaining people at a concert.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, that's.

[Donald Miller]

That's really special.

[Kyle Reed]

What's the balance of that for you, though? I. I think as artists, there's. There's this sense of self you've talked about the why, the authenticity. But there also has to be a strategy.

[John Mark McMillan]

Side. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

How do you find the balance between those two?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, I mean, I see the strategy as, like, a frame.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay.

[John Mark McMillan]

Right. And so, I mean, literally when I started, I was selling CDs, right. And so there's a moment when there's no CDs. We're downloads. And went from downloads to streams, and then we went from messaging on a scrolling platform to algorithmic. And so if I continue doing the same thing, it wasn't going to work, but so the form had to change. Right. But the idea stays the same.

[Donald Miller]

That's what doesn't change.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Got it. The most artists that I know, singer songwriters here in Nashville, they really struggle with the business aspect of it. They don't want to promote themselves. It's very uncomfortable for them to do that. And honestly, artists are some of the hardest people that I've ever had to work with for that very reason. Well, for two reasons. One is they don't want to promote themselves. They want to show up and be the thing that Was amazing without being promoted just because people talked about their music, which I completely understand that. The second thing is most products sell because they are a solution to a problem. Right. I mean, dish soap sells because it cleans your dishes and whatever. It's very hard to articulate what a good song. What problem a good song solves because it's so internal, it's so emotional, it's so dependent on so many things that are very, you know, that are difficult to put your finger on. And so that's the other reason you can't just say, hey, are your ears itching for something new? John Mark Millen's got a new album out. You know, it doesn't really work that way. It's like, no, you just listen to a song. I'm convinced. You listen to a song that releases dopamine, and it's actually an addiction business.

[John Mark McMillan]

All right.

[Donald Miller]

It's actually. It really is.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

I mean, there was a time when I was listening to so much Sturgill Simpson that I was sick of them, But I couldn't stop listening. I would still get in my car and go, okay, we gotta hear this again. Because it's kind of a. It is a bit of a habit forming thing.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah. I tend to think that music is. And there's probably a million different reasons people listen to music. I kind of think of music as like the way we practice not being alone in the world. Right. Like when you go into a retail store, they're playing music. You go into a restaurant, they're playing music, and you go to a bar, and when they want you to leave, they turn the music off. And I used to work in the restaurant business. I remember showing up and before things got going, you know, it felt weird. I was like, why does it feel weird? And they turn the music on and it doesn't feel weird anymore. Because music makes you feel like you're connected to something.

[Donald Miller]

It's a mood machine.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[John Mark McMillan]

It makes you feel not alone, you know? And so I kind of think, at least when I'm making something and put it out in the world, what I'm hoping is that I'm putting out an opportunity for someone to have a relationship with me. And if I'm doing it right, I'm telling my story in a hopefully in a somewhat vulnerable way that opens up the door for someone to see themselves in what I'm doing. And if they see themselves in what I'm doing, then we can hopefully make a connection in that, you know.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[John Mark McMillan]

If you do that multiple times, you develop, hopefully, a meaningful connection that feels a little bit like a relationship. Even though I've never met these people, you know, I see them in the audience and stuff, but we kind of have a little bit of a relationship. If I'm sharing my life in a meaningful way and they see themselves and they may not even know that they do that, you know? Like, I don't always know why I love the movies I like, but oftentimes it's because I see myself in the. The hero. Right. And usually that's from a. I want to say maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but it's through their flaws. Right. A hero with no flaws is not very interesting because you don't have an inroad into their. You know, And I don't. There's a movie I did.

[Donald Miller]

They're not relatable.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, not relatable. And so I think music is similar. And going back to messaging, I've always tried or lately have tried to allow myself to be a little more vulnerable even in the messaging, because I think it opens up the door for people to connect to what I'm doing. And music is very abstract. Like, what problem does it solve? It is.

[Donald Miller]

Would you answer that? Connection. The problem of connection.

[John Mark McMillan]

I want to say. Yeah, I think music helps you feel connected. It also is a way you sort of. I don't know, this may sound abstract, so sort of experience your own life, you know, it's a way you share life. Like I've noticed online, the stuff of mine that seems to go, if you want to say viral, is the stuff that people share. And people share. I'm convinced they're sharing themselves. When they share my song, they're not just saying, this is cool. What they're saying is like, this is who I am. This is me. Right. And so if you can help people figure themselves out a little bit, even if they don't know you're doing that, they will share it and they'll support you. Because at the end of the day, they're trying to say, this is who I am. And so in a sense, you know, we're meaning makers. Artists are meaning makers. We help people figure themselves out a little bit by finding themselves in one way, shape or form in the art that we make, you know?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, I've always felt that that's very well said. I feel like that's true for me. There's times where I found songs that say the words that I'm looking for.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, you're speaking for people.

[Kyle Reed]

It's really true. I can remember very specifically before my daughter was born. My oldest. This would be 2008. 18. Sorry, not that old. 2018. And sleeping at Last came out with a song. And I remember the words that he talked about in that song was exactly what my vision for my daughter was. And he articulated it in such a way that I'll never forget that. But he put words to what I was feeling. Like that's what artists do. It put words to things that we can't articulate ourselves.

[Donald Miller]

They also represent an aspirational identity in many ways. All this is coming to me now, but I'm thinking, like, if you think of your favorite bands, your favorite artists, like, I remember when Yankee Hotel Foxtrot came.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Do you remember that?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yep. Great album.

[Donald Miller]

It was like 20, 20 years ago. More. Yeah, something like that. But I remember just. I mean, none of Jeff Twitty's lyrics make any sense at all. Like, he would actually argue. He would actually say, admit that he just makes crap up. That has the right syllables.

[Kyle Reed]

Sounds easy.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, but he was. He was. We're talk about Wilco, the band Wilco. But his identity was. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm not going to follow conventional wisdom when it comes to creating music. I'm going to play with sort of sacred. Jesus, don't cry. I'll be there for you, buddy. How's that song about Jesus, don't cry.

[John Mark McMillan]

You can rely, you can rely on me.

[Donald Miller]

Jesus, don't cry, you can rely on me. Honey. I love it. It's just a good, great fricking line. And it's, like, very sweetly disseminated. But there's a bit of a provocateur in that line and a little bit of an intimacy with Jesus that evangelicals claim an exclusivity to. And he's going, no, I actually have it, too. In fact, we might be closer because we kid with each other, and you are not allowed to do that. There's something. And I just went, oh, this is me.

[Kyle Reed]

That Jeff Tweedy is me.

[Donald Miller]

And I think there's part of that in an artist as well. And the other thing that I think we really appreciate in artists is they. They, in terms of an aspirational identity, they'll say things that you won't say.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

You know what I mean? And they'll do things that you won't do because it would cost you. And so you're sort of like, that guy's expressing me. I think that's a little bit of a. I mean, you know, if there's a product that's gotta be part of it too.

[Kyle Reed]

Do they kind of play the guide in that sense at that point?

[Donald Miller]

I think so, a little bit.

[Kyle Reed]

And just like they're kind of pushing that down that path. I know, you know, we talk about it's hard for artists to, to play the guide most of the times because it's so personal, but it feels like a little bit they do there in that moment of.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Of kind of saying the things.

[Donald Miller]

I think so. I've always argued that in terms of the guide hero mentality. I think one of the reasons Taylor Swift is so successful is because she actually doesn't sing about her life. She sings about your life and she's smart enough to do that. Or at least she sings about where the Venn diagram overlaps. If she's sang about her life, she would be singing about contract negotiations.

[Kyle Reed]

Private jets.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, the incredible cost of private jets. The drama that you have with dancers. Who's gonna listen to that? My four year old daughter's not gonna go, oh yeah, this is me. No, it's gotta be like, that dude dumped me and I'm gonna kill him.

[John Mark McMillan]

Right.

[Donald Miller]

So she knows, she's smart enough to know that. And I think some artists maybe aren't smart enough to know they don't actually make it all about you.

[Bobby Richards]

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[Kyle Reed]

What's the balance there? As an artist sharing that side of you, Is there a line to that?

[Donald Miller]

How authentic do you ask the artist.

[Kyle Reed]

Where, where is that?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, yeah, I, I think it's different for different artists. My approach has always been in the initial stages of writing, I sort of ignore the audience in service to the audience.

[Donald Miller]

And then I've heard Rick say things like this. What do you mean by that?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, so I think what the audience wants to believe, they don't want to believe. John Mark is, like, asking himself what I want and making something for me. They want to believe that John Mark has something really important to say and he's channeling God. Yeah. And then I resonate with it, you know? And so in the initial stages of writing the music, I try and forget about the audience in the sense of what they want and start asking myself what matters to me, because in a sense, I'm also the audience. Right. So I'm sort of like my test audience. And I fig. I figure if it matters to me, then I open up the door and say, okay, now does this.

[Donald Miller]

There's got to be somebody out there like me.

[John Mark McMillan]

There's got to be some crossover.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[John Mark McMillan]

I think Stephen King says he writes the first draft with the door shut, and then he writes the second draft with the door open and a similar type of thing.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[John Mark McMillan]

So I want to forget about what they want because sometimes their wants also pigeonhole you a little bit, and sometimes they want things they don't know they want, you know, And I think what they really want is something that matters. Then, of course, you have to present it to them. You can't just go way off the page. Or then they're going to be like, I don't know. But. Yeah, but in the initial phages, I sort of ignore the audience in service to the audience. Then I open up the door and I ask myself, okay, why does this matter to the audience and who does it matter to? You know? And then you're sort of in a different phase, which now I'm very much interested in. How does this serve the audience kind.

[Kyle Reed]

Of tactics, marketing side? You know, we talk a lot about here about having messaging campaigns, and I love the way you broke that down, because I think my brain always goes to the tactics, marketing. But there's something about every person listening to this. There is artistry in what you're doing, whether it be the business you're running, the brand you're creating. There's kind of that Stephen King side of you creating in the dark and then releasing that. Talk to me a little bit about after you've kind of done that work now, getting a little bit into more of the marketing side. I think you do a great job on social media. It seems to be in my past life working with a lot of artists. You're very intentional about what you're doing. It's not just throwing things out there. How do you transition that from. Okay, I've done the work, I've done the art. I've done the authentic side. I'm now showing up here with some tactics around some messaging campaigns. Do you have a process for that, or is there something you found and discovered?

[John Mark McMillan]

Sure. Yeah. I think initially, I want to ask myself, how is the marketing and extension of the art? Right. I think where a lot of artists go wrong is, number one, they just want to make a commercial for their.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[John Mark McMillan]

And they're like, hey, go buy my stuff. And no one goes online thinking, I really want to find something to buy. You know, they go online looking for, like, what's interesting, exciting, where do I feel connected? Right. And then I think that the next big issue that a lot of. A lot of artists have is they create attention, but then they don't create connection. And so I'm. I'm. I'm trying to live in a world.

[Donald Miller]

Explain that they create attention but not a connection.

[John Mark McMillan]

Well, you have to create a little bit of attention. You have to kind of have a hook, you know, and so a lot of artists will create a hook or they'll do something impressive, but then they don't necessarily have a thing that sticks with you.

[Donald Miller]

For example. For example, like an artist creating a. Or creating tension, as. I mean, part of the journey of an artist, I would think, is just getting attention.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Getting people to pay attention to you is. Is difficult. It's probably a challenge.

[John Mark McMillan]

Well, that's a huge part of it. You do have to get attention. I guess a lot of artists think that if they have a viral moment, it's gonna make their career, and that's not necessarily true. A viral moment is an opportunity, build connection with people.

[Donald Miller]

It's a slightly bigger brick in the wall. Next brick, please. It's not the wall.

[John Mark McMillan]

Totally.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. But when you talk about that tension, I want to get back to that because I'm always curious about hooks, especially, like, narrative hooks. You know, if there's a narrative hook, it's because the hero has a problem.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

He meets the young woman, he falls in love with her, and then realizes it's his brother's fiance. Right? Now we got a hook in a rom com or whatever. What's the hook? If you're releasing a record and you've done this more than 10 times, how do you hook people on a record? Like, how do you. How does that work? You know, not even on the record itself, but how do you hook people, you know, sort of intellectually so that they'll even listen to the record? And hear the actual musical hook, which I imagine is something different. Are there any. Is there anything you've ever thought about in that sense that, you know, that you could. You could use?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, totally. Well, it's changed a lot over the years, I think in this past season, I've tried to have conversation that goes along with the album. So it's not just me saying, hey, come listen to my record. Like, I'm telling stories. The new album really, in a lot of ways, reaches back into my past, and it's sort of about me sort of embracing all of my spiritual journey, even things that maybe I'm a embarrassed of or being like a kid in church or, you know, and so I'm telling some of those stories, and I'm doing it in ways that are. That doesn't make me. I don't think it makes me look bad, but it doesn't make me look awesome or impressive. And I found that that goes way further than, like, doing a big make me look like a rock star kind of thing, you know? And so, like, I mean, I could break it down. I have one, a carousel that did really awesome for me, where I opened up with, like, something happened to me when I was seven years old, and I was never able to shake it. I'm sure initially people like. But the trick is actually wasn't. It's actually an amazing thing that happened to me. You know, it was just sort of this spiritual moment that I had. But it's not very cool to talk about. But what's interesting is hundreds and hundreds of people commented about how they had similar experiences. But see, I have the music playing in the background on the carousel, and the story goes right along with the album itself. So it's sort of like the album is just part of a larger story. And to me, the messaging is about telling the whole story of the album. Because the goal is to get this in people's lives. They just listen to the song once. It doesn't matter at all. They need to connect with it. It needs to sort of like, get in their system. I want people listening to my songs for 10, 20 years. I want them to listen thousands of times. Because in a streaming world, that's what you need. Just being impressive and looking cool. That's a cool song. Go listen to it one time. That doesn't help me very much. I need people to play this at weddings and funerals and birthdays and big important moments in their life. So somehow I need to connect with people on that deep level so that they want to Carry my music with them through their life, you know, and that's difficult to do, but for me, I think the willingness to be vulnerable in those moments, telling those stories is sort of what opens people up, you know, to. To the music, I guess, you know?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

It's almost hit me like your social media marketing is like another instrument in your music.

[John Mark McMillan]

Exactly.

[Kyle Reed]

Which is actually a really cool way. I think a lot of creatives skip that.

[Donald Miller]

They skip it and they're missing out on something.

[Kyle Reed]

Absolutely.

[Donald Miller]

You know, these days, probably very few people would think of me as an artist. They think of me as a capitalist and a business guy, and. But at the same time, the social media stuff that we create, the books that I write, which are business books, I feel in the process of creating those things exactly how I felt when I created art. There's this sense of, like, how can you get people's attention? How can you get them to understand what you're trying to communicate? How can you do it artfully? How can you make this easy to read? What do you want them to feel going into the next chapter? Those are all artistic sensibilities. And I have a couple questions for you. As an artist, and this podcast has become how to promote yourself as an artist. Probably it's become a little bit of a masterclass, thanks to John Mark. But I'm curious about artists who have this approach where they essentially create a character. Beyonce. What's her.

[Kyle Reed]

Sasha Fierce.

[Donald Miller]

Sasha Fierce, right. She has. What is it? A secondary identity or another.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Donald Miller]

There's something. I can't remember what it's called, but.

[Kyle Reed]

Alter ego.

[Donald Miller]

An alter ego. And she's created that, you think about. David Bowie kind of did the same thing, I think, to some gray. Bono has participated in this over the years. Even changes his name at some point. Remember Octung Baby?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Donald Miller]

His name is something else.

[Kyle Reed]

The Fly.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, the Fly.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And then today, a modern version of that might be Sturgill Simpson, in the sense that Sturgill kind of lets you believe crazy things about him. He was even asked about politics recently, and where do you fit? Like, are you a Trump supporter? And he goes, well, I'm actually an anarchist. There's no way he's an anarchist. You actually know what that means, but he's just not gonna answer that question one. And then, I don't know. There was somebody on Joe Rogan who's a good friend of Sturgill Simpson, and it was clearly canned. It was clearly a canned setup thing. And Joe said, you know, you and Sturgill Aren't talking right now. And he goes, yeah, we're not talking because I confronted him like. You confronted him about what? He's a CIA assassin. He goes, you follow those tours and those. Those dictators die wherever he goes. And I'm like, these guys sat around with a whiskey, made up this story about how Sturgill Simpson is a CIA assassin. And the whole time he's going, now, I admit he's the greatest country singer in the history of the world, but he's assassin. He also kills people. And I'm curious about, like. And that also seems like a really fun thing to do. Not kill people, but actually pretend that you're an assassin. How much of Is sort of creating The John Mark McMillan sort of avatar.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah. Have you ever.

[Donald Miller]

Do you do any of that? I mean, or do you just go, that's next level? I don't know.

[John Mark McMillan]

I think about that a little bit.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. I mean, how do you think about it?

[John Mark McMillan]

Well, I mean, Bob Dylan was one of my favorites, and he was the king of that. His backstory, especially early on, even now, I don't think anyone really knows. Knows. But he lied in all of his first interviews.

[Donald Miller]

He also pretended he was Woody Guthrie. He did?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, he just totally lied. And I think in his mind, he's like.

[Donald Miller]

Like, nobody knew what Woody Guthrie looked like. So he'd show up in town. You're like, well, I'm Woody Guthrie. Bob Dylan, man.

[Kyle Reed]

It's like Andy Kaufman.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And Jim Carrey, you know? Yeah, yeah, keep going on Bob Dylan.

[John Mark McMillan]

No, no, totally. But I. I do feel like when you're putting a story together, like, you. You want to tell the truth. What is. What does Picasso say? That art is the lie that tells the truth. Right. Is that right? But, like, I do sort of exaggerate. I use hyperbole sometimes. I'm not telling untruths. But you do want to take these ideas and make them a little bit more extreme. Make a little bit of a caricature.

[Donald Miller]

Because when you say putting the story together.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

As an artist, what do you mean by that?

[John Mark McMillan]

Well, I think that especially these days, I have. I don't know. I have kind of a funny story with another friend of mine who's a songwriter. I'm trying to say it the right way. Well, he.

[Donald Miller]

Okay, he's an assassin.

[John Mark McMillan]

Okay, let me tell this story. I'm not gonna say who any of these people are, but I have a friend of mine who co. Wrote some pretty big songs, and he saw one of these artists on an interview and they're asking this artist about the song, you know, how'd you write the song? And in his mind, he's thinking, okay, well, we played this chord and we put these words together. He says. He didn't say anything like that. He said, well, my grandfather does this whole story. He's like, you know, this really moving story about this song. And my friend was like, I don't remember any of that. Writing this song. Yeah, I don't think that it was a lie.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[John Mark McMillan]

But I think you realize that, like, the song is part of a. Of a bigger story, you know? And so I definitely, as a. In the Christian music space, it feel weird if I was just making stuff up. So I feel like I'm telling the truth, like I'm telling my story, but I definitely am thinking about how it lands, and I'm thinking about what has happened in my life that I can share with other people that's gonna make the. An inroad for this music, how the music becomes a part of this bigger story, you know? So I definitely think about that. I don't think that it would be a little bit weird as a Christian artist if it just came out that I was just totally made all this stuff up. So most of it is true. Most of it is true.

[Kyle Reed]

Figure out the part that's not yet. Yeah, we'll figure that out. Yeah, that's good. I like that. There's definitely a connection there. I think, again, it goes back to that holistic side of what you're creating, extends out not just from when you're in your studio writing, but every moment of what you're doing as a career, but also to who you are. I love what you said earlier about that connection to. You're going. There's a connection as a listener that it can't be that you're making art for the listener. You need to go ahead of them. But then there's also something that when I listen to your music, I see myself in what you're saying. And that, as a. As a creator allows us to share that. It's like, if there's no. If there's no connection there, that doesn't move me to share, to maybe listen again. And it can be skipped over. I think it's a really important part, not just for artists, but just as business owners. There's something authentic there.

[John Mark McMillan]

That there is.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, I think so. And I think it's. It's. It's necessary. It's mandatory for an artist to do this. I'm curious about how Comfortable, Are you? Let's just say this because, like, the thing is, you got to be pretty darn comfortable and maybe even narcissistic or arrogant to say, I'm going to take all these people who don't seem to have an identity and just give them mine.

[Kyle Reed]

I mean, there's a question for you.

[Donald Miller]

That'S kind of the message of Christ, and you're going, oh, I could be a Christ, but, okay, let's not get too far off. But I'm curious. I just think it's critical for an artist to sort of embrace that if they really want to succeed. And I'm not convinced it's actually a bad thing. Have you strategically gone about that in any way? Are there. John Mark McMillan heads. Do you cultivate them?

[John Mark McMillan]

I really do like to think of them like my friends, you know? Like, I. And early on. Like, early on, I wouldn't even do photographs. I'm like, I'm not gonna do pictures. I'm not. I'm not gonna do videos. No one's gonna see me. And then I realized if I didn't do it, other people can do it for me, and it wasn't gonna be good. So then I started doing the stuff and started sort of creating a little bit of an identity. You know, I don't know how hard I think about it. There definitely are people who, for some reason or another, see themselves in me and what I do. And in the past, you know, several years, I've tried to acknowledge that I know that when I'm saying something or when I'm putting something out there, that there are people who, you know, this represents them a little bit, you know, and take that really seriously. I think, you know, I. I don't know that I think about it as me and my identity, but I definitely think about it in the work that I do, that I'm hopefully creating an environment where people can find themselves, you know, partly because I'm kind of finding myself in the music as well. So maybe that's why it works for me, because I feel like when I'm making the music, I'm trying to figure out who I am, then I share this with other people, and then they can sort of figure out who they are by the way they feel when they hear the music and where our sort of stories overlap a little bit.

[Donald Miller]

But you talked about not wanting pictures of yourself, things like that. I mean, those feel like characteristics of a young artist.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, definitely.

[Donald Miller]

And there's definitely an evolution. I remember people used to come up to me at A grocery store or whatever, and just say, hey, man, don't wanna bother you about really every book. And I would be very bothered by that. I would be like, I'm in the grocery store right now, man. I'm trying to buy ice cream. And I'm so embarrassed about that now because today it's like, man, thank you. Tell me where, what resonated or whatever. And I feel like I've met a friend or somebody. I feel like we're on the second interaction rather than the first. It's about like that. But to me, that's the difference between sort of being an amateur and going pro. Being an amateur is it's all about me, and going pro is it's actually about us, and it's about the fact that we've connected, and you kind of have to get over your insecurities and narcissistic characteristics to get to that second place, which is really what we want from the artists that we like, because they're kind of going, hey, where are we? Yes, I'm in the same tribe that you're in, and you're kind of the leader of that tribe, and you want the leader to turn around and go, welcome, man. There's one more of us. Come on.

[Kyle Reed]

I think you've done such a good job with that.

[Donald Miller]

It sounds like you have. I wonder if that's. I wonder if you've had a similar journey because you said the thing about I don't want my picture taken earlier. Seems like maybe there's a similar journey there.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yep, 100%. I was really uncomfortable early on when people would come up to me and.

[Donald Miller]

They were uncovered with the idea of fame.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, I didn't like it at all. I. Well, for a million reasons. One is I was very insecure. I'm like, I don't want all these people looking at me.

[Donald Miller]

Did you feel like they thought you were something that you weren't?

[John Mark McMillan]

Well, there was that as well. Yeah. I think over time, over the past 25 years, I realized when they come up to me, they're not really coming up to me.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, They're.

[John Mark McMillan]

They're saying, like, this mattered in my life, and they want a way to express the same way I want to make the music and express it. They want to express that they've had this experience. So they're coming up to me. They're really not lifting me up. What they're really saying is like, thank you, you know, and really, I think they're thanking God. And I'm saying, on behalf of God, you're welcome. But I say that in a. I don't mean that in a narcissistic way, like, I'm not standing in the place of God. But what I'm saying is they've obviously had this amazing experience, and my name happened to be attached to it, and someone needs to say, you're welcome. And I see you, you know, and when they come up to me, it's not about me at all. And I guess that's the. Early on, it bothered me that it was about me, and now I'm realizing it was never about me anyway. I'm just sort of like the custodian, the curator, you know, and when they come, they thank me. My gratitude towards them is really hopefully I'm, you know, just acknowledging and validating them and their experience. But it was never about me to begin with.

[Donald Miller]

You know, let's go. Let's go direction here. Real quick. When you create a song and it is a message that you are disseminating a lot of people, there's a little debate amongst artists whether or not you are channeling your subconscious when you're in the flow, or you're channeling God, or you're channeling the collective consciousness of mankind or whatever that is. Who knows what it is? Is that true for you? Is that where you write good songs? And then second, is there a process that you perform to get into that state of mind? Do you resonate with that at all?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, totally, definitely. I think in the early stages, I'm always looking for a feeling. I think you want everything to hit people on multiple levels, and music especially, you want them, wanted to hit them on the feeling level. And so at first I'm just looking for a feeling, but then I start to ask myself, why am I feeling this feeling? And start looking for words to sort of define it. Then with a good song, there is a point when I'm able to say, okay, this song seems to be about this. We're going to make it about that. But early on, a lot of times, I'm just kind of figuring it out, and maybe it is coming from a subconscious place. I think people are more subconscious than conscious. And if hopefully I can hit people on the conscious and subconscious level, like classical music, why is it so powerful? No words. But some of the most powerful music in the world has no words. Because somehow the notes create a feeling. And when you play them, hopefully other people feel that feeling. And so it all begins with the feeling for me. But there is a point where you're like, I think the Song needs to be about something, and it probably always was about something, but for me.

[Donald Miller]

And they're just trying to figure out what it's about.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah. I do know some writers who write. They like, I got this good idea. I want to write that. And I've done that before. And some people are good at it. For me, though, it usually starts. It's more like a mystery. Like, I have this feeling. It feels weird. These chords make me feel this way. Why do I feel this way? And what do I want to attach this feeling to? Right. And so I start writing. It feels weird. It feels weird to say it out loud, but it begins that way.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[John Mark McMillan]

You know?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[John Mark McMillan]

Then at a point, I do have to sort of define what it is, otherwise it sort of stays in that kind of realm.

[Donald Miller]

But, yeah, there is a. There's a song. Can I think, articulate a feeling and create a feeling unlike pretty much any other piece of art? I mean, maybe a film. But a film's gonna have music at that point. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

They need music to get there.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, they are. And I wonder how many artists have created something. I remember hearing a story about Lyle Lovett. He was asleep when he wrote if I Had a Boat. And he woke up and finished it, grabbed his guitar and finished it, but he was dreaming it. And, you know. You know the song I'm talking about.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

If I had a boat, I'd go out on the ocean if I had a pony, I'd ride him on my boat and we could all together Go out on the ocean Me upon my pony on my boat. It's a song about being tired of women. And he couldn't have known that when he started riding it. Yeah, but he was basically. It's basically a song that says, this is too painful. I'm just going to go be alone. I'm only going to trust the things that I control, which is a boat and a pony on the boat. Yeah.

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

I mean, who would have. You can't. That does not come from a linear conscious mind. And yet it articulates a feeling that probably all men have had after a breakup or something like that. Right. And I wonder if there's times when. How is the relationship between creating that message. What is it like to have to create that message and deal with control versus surrender? Because control is. I'm going to say something, and surrender is somebody is saying something to me, and I'm trying to figure out what it is, and I'm trying to get it down through music, but I don't know what it is yet, and if I try to control it, we're going to break this fricking thing. You know what I mean? Is that part of the process for you?

[John Mark McMillan]

Yeah, 100%. When I was really young, when I first started writing songs, I wrote songs, and people didn't care much about the songs that I wrote. And then there was a year where I had an experience where the songs that I wrote, people cared about, Right?

[Donald Miller]

They were resonating.

[John Mark McMillan]

They were resonating. And I wasn't a better songwriter that one year after the one year from the other. But later on, I look back and I realized what happened is I went through a breakup, really painful breakup. I didn't have a job. I paid someone to haul my car away. But I did have a place to live with my buddy. We had moved into his grandmother's place because she was old, moved into assisted living, and she wanted us to make sure her house was taken care of. So I was living there for free, but didn't have a relationship. I didn't have a job, didn't have a car. So I would stay up all night and sing songs. And what's interesting is, is at that moment, I wasn't writing songs for anybody. I was just writing songs because it was the only thing to do. And what's so funny is people loved those songs. They didn't like the songs I wrote before.

[Donald Miller]

Why do you think that? Why? What was that? What were they resonating with that they weren't resonating with before?

[John Mark McMillan]

I think because I was trying to write songs that people would like before, I was controlling the process. And when I wrote those songs late at night, there was no audience. There's just me. God. And there's this speed hump where cars late at night would hit it too fast. You know, I would just sit out there and I'd write songs that made me feel something. And for some reason, people connected to those songs, because I think, like you said, those were songs of surrender, as the other songs were songs of control. You know, the other songs was me telling the song what to be as these songs were, telling me what they wanted to be. Then there's a point you do have to take a little bit of control, you know, and frame it up and. Yeah, but for me, the good ones always begin in that little bit of mysterious place of surrender where you're like, what do you want to say? You know what? You know?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, that's good. John, Mark McMillan, thank you so much for joining us. I think as being a fan of yours for a while. I think there's. That authenticity shines through with your music. There's been times I've messaged you about just a good song and you write back. You know, I think that that comes through with your music. As far as a genuine, you care. And so I think that's a, that's a, that's something about your music that I love. And, and I appreciate that. You show up, you make the art, you share it with us, and then you engage.

[Donald Miller]

He talked about how he engages on Instagram. What's your handle on Instagram?

[John Mark McMillan]

It's John Mark McMillan.

[Donald Miller]

And then what's your latest record?

[John Mark McMillan]

Cosmic Supreme.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. And your paws on tour for the summer. But in the fall, people can go find johnmarkmcmillen.com go see John Mark if he's come to your city or go on Instagram. Check him out there. Thanks for joining us.

[John Mark McMillan]

Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you.

[Bobby Richards]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customized tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Donald Miller]

Sa.