Why That Worked #5: Stories—The Survival Tool Hardwired into Every Human

Summary

Marketing Made Simple: Episode Summary

Title: Why That Worked #5: Stories—The Survival Tool Hardwired into Every Human
Release Date: February 5, 2025
Hosts: Donald Miller and Kyle Reed
Presented by: StoryBrand AI

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Introduction

In the fifth episode of the Why That Worked series, hosted by Donald Miller and Kyle Reed, the focus is on the profound role that stories play in human survival and connection. The episode delves into the neurological underpinnings of storytelling, its evolution, and its pivotal role in marketing, personal relationships, and societal structures.

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The Neurological Basis of Storytelling

Donald Miller opens the discussion by exploring the concept of neural mirroring, a phenomenon where storytelling allows the storyteller to "hijack" the listener's brain, creating a shared experience. At [06:22], Donald states:

"When you tell a story, you are in essence taking over the thoughts of another person's brain. I’m going to speak into your brain and I’m going to hijack your actual thoughts."

This shared neural experience fosters a deep connection between individuals, making stories a fundamental tool for human interaction and survival.

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Evolution of Storytelling: From Survival to Modern Narratives

Kyle Reed and Donald Miller trace the origins of storytelling back to early human societies, where stories were essential for survival. At [08:52], Kyle remarks:

"They would use it to share. Basically. She's like, here's the information I know about surviving out here. Let me help you understand."

Donald adds that storytelling was not just for survival but also an efficient method of teaching, enabling knowledge transfer in a memorable and engaging manner.

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The Power of Story in Marketing and Communication

A significant portion of the episode highlights how stories enhance communication effectiveness. Donald Miller emphasizes the importance of integrating stories into marketing strategies:

"The number one thing that needs to be fixed is you need more stories." ([09:43])

He criticizes traditional, bullet-pointed communication methods and advocates for storytelling to make messages more relatable and memorable.

Kyle Reed concurs, noting:

"I think about some of my favorite books are ones that are narrative form and they sneak the principles of the teaching."

This approach ensures that information is not only conveyed but also retained and acted upon by the audience.

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Storytelling in Media: Examples from Movies and TV Shows

The hosts discuss various examples of storytelling in media, highlighting both successes and failures. Donald Miller recounts his experience with the TV show Prison Break, acknowledging its initial allure but critiquing its "cheesy" elements upon rewatching ([02:44]). In contrast, he praises The Wire and Treme for their compelling narratives and character development.

He further lauds Quentin Tarantino and his film Pulp Fiction for exceptional dialogue and storytelling techniques:

"His dialogue is better than anybody has ever written." ([17:29])

These examples illustrate how effective storytelling can captivate audiences and leave a lasting impact.

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Storytelling in Social Media

Addressing the evolution of storytelling in the age of social media, Donald Miller notes that platforms like Instagram and TikTok require succinct yet impactful storytelling:

"A good social media post that goes viral is either opening or closing a story loop." ([24:36])

He cites his own viral post on dealing with narcissists as an instance where effectively closing an emotional story loop resonated with millions of viewers. Kyle Reed adds that formats like "Get Ready with Me" videos are modern manifestations of storytelling, where individuals share daily narratives to engage and connect with their audience.

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Leadership and Personal Stories

The conversation shifts to the role of storytelling in leadership. Donald Miller argues that leaders must craft compelling narratives to inspire and guide their followers:

"Every leader's call is to say this crap we've been doing is totally beneath our humanity. You are the pinnacle of God's creation. And we are going to do something really good." ([36:07])

Kyle Reed reflects on personal applications, considering how to incorporate storytelling into family life and leadership roles to foster a shared mission and vision.

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Stories in Personal Life

Exploring the personal impact of stories, Kyle Reed discusses how stories help in creating meaningful connections and guiding family dynamics:

"What story am I calling my family into? Yeah, what story am I living out?" ([34:17])

Donald Miller underscores the importance of defining one's personal narrative to avoid external narratives dictating one's life:

"If you do not decide what the story you're living in is and what role you're gonna play and what important and noble role other people are gonna play in your story... Those people are going to dictate your story." ([38:36])

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The Dark Side of Storytelling: Manipulation and Cults

The hosts also examine the manipulative potential of storytelling, using historical examples of cult leaders like Jim Jones. Donald Miller explains how Jones crafted compelling origin stories and utopian visions to control and manipulate followers:

"He created a compelling origin story... He fostered sort of an intrigue and a sense of destiny." ([30:08])

This segment serves as a cautionary tale about the ethical responsibilities inherent in storytelling.

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Conclusion: The Enduring Power of Stories

In wrapping up, Kyle Reed and Donald Miller reiterate the central thesis:

"Stories are powerful. You can use them in one of, you know, you can use them for their power in a positive way or a negative way." ([35:00])

They emphasize the importance of intentional storytelling in shaping personal narratives, marketing strategies, and leadership visions. The episode concludes with a call to action for listeners to consciously craft and inhabit empowering stories to enhance their lives and connections.

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Notable Quotes

• Donald Miller ([06:22]):

  "When you sit down in a movie theater and the screen goes dim, that screen starts taking over your thought. It thinks for you."

• Kyle Reed ([08:52]):

  "They would use it to share. Basically. She's like, here's the information I know about surviving out here. Let me help you understand."

• Donald Miller ([09:43]):

  "You are giving me. This is the equivalent of a keynote presentation with 37 bullet points on every slide."

• Donald Miller ([24:36]):

  "A good social media post that goes viral is either opening or closing a story loop."

• Donald Miller ([36:07]):

  "Every leader's call is to say this crap we've been doing is totally beneath our humanity. You are the pinnacle of God's creation. And we are going to do something really good."

• Kyle Reed ([34:17]):

  "What story am I calling my family into? Yeah, what story am I living out?"

• Donald Miller ([38:36]):

  "If you do not decide what the story you're living in is... Those people are going to dictate your story."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Why That Worked underscores the indispensable role of stories in human life. From fostering connections and teaching survival skills to shaping marketing strategies and leadership, storytelling remains a potent tool. However, it also serves as a reminder of the ethical dimensions of storytelling, highlighting its potential for both positive influence and manipulation.

Listeners are encouraged to harness the power of stories thoughtfully, ensuring their narratives enhance their lives and the lives of those around them.

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Stay Connected:
For more insights and actionable marketing tips, subscribe to the StoryBrand YouTube channel and follow the Why That Worked podcast wherever you enjoy your podcasts.

Explore StoryBrand AI:
Enhance your communication with StoryBrand AI's custom messaging solutions. Visit storybrand AI to create a free custom tagline for your business today.

Transcript

[Bobby Richards]

Hey, hero makers, it's podcast producer Bobby Richards. I'm jumping in to share with you a new episode of our brand new podcast, why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI with Donald Miller back in the host seat. Now, since we launched Marketing Made simple, we've been so grateful to have everybody tune in each week to learn how to make your marketing easy and make it work. Which is exactly why we're sharing new episodes of the why that Worked podcast here. In the old Marketing Made simple feedback, but only for a limited time. Each episode of the new show is going to deliver actionable insights and key takeaways that are all designed so you can implement them to help make whatever you're working on work. Now, here's the deal. Like I said, this is only for a limited time. If you want to catch new episodes early, you can watch or listen every Monday. To watch the show, just go subscribe to the StoryBrand YouTube channel. And to listen, go follow why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI wherever you enjoy your podcasts. All right, that's it from me. So grateful you're here. And enjoy this week's episode of why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI. You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends, or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed.

[Donald Miller]

Kyle, what is the best story you've seen recently? Netflix movie.

[Kyle Reed]

The last great story I watched. This is gonna be. Do you remember the show Prison Break?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Marshall Allman was in it, right?

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

So I remember watching that a long time ago. And as every married couple does and sits on the couch and goes, what are we gonna watch? And we got hooked on that all the time. Searching for something. I saw Prison Break. I asked my wife, have you ever watched Prison Break? She's like, no. I go, I remember it being awesome.

[Donald Miller]

That's funny.

[Kyle Reed]

And so we sat down and I go, let's watch it. And my goodness, does that not trans. Like, does that not hold up?

[Donald Miller]

Are you being serious? It's. So how many years? When did you see it?

[Kyle Reed]

That was. It was 20 years ago.

[Donald Miller]

Easily 20 years ago when it came out. But you saw it recently?

[Kyle Reed]

Well, we started watching it recently, so I watched it when it first came out. I remember. And I just remember, like, this is the greatest show like this is up there with 24. This is amazing.

[Donald Miller]

And now it's like, really?

[Kyle Reed]

And I watched it and I was like, this is horrible. But you know what? My wife obsessed. She loved it. She stayed up multiple nights in a row till 1am watching episodes and she'd be like, is it okay if I like skipped ahead? I go, yeah, you're not hurting my feelings while I'm sleeping. Like you go watch this. But the last great story I probably watched though still was Prison Break because it actually is.

[Donald Miller]

It's actually good. So you also say it was good. It holds up.

[Kyle Reed]

It's just so cheesy. It's so cheesy. That's the last great story.

[Donald Miller]

I watched the last great two and it's been a minute. The Wire?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Did you do HBO's the Wire?

[Kyle Reed]

Yes. It was a little before my time of like being able to watch it, but I heard so much about it, I went back and tried to start watching it.

[Donald Miller]

I think it's Baltimore.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

And it's a story of drug dealing, underbelly of Baltimore. So you've got all the cops trying to catch them, the detectives, people know. Funny story about the Wire. I'm at Barack Obama's inauguration. So everybody in front of me is in a seat.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay?

[Donald Miller]

So the important people are right in front of me.

[Kyle Reed]

And you're behind him, but standing.

[Donald Miller]

And I'm behind. And there's a guy maybe 40 yards, incredible, like incredibly, like kind of charismatic. I couldn't hear him. He's 40 yards away, but he's the happiest guy I've seen in a long time. Filled with joy. And I just kind of couldn't take my eyes off him. And two days later I'm in the Dulles airport flying out. And the place is packed. I mean packed. Like you can't even walk through the terminal because people are sitting. And I go to a Burger King and I'm getting a burger and there's not an empty seat in this whole airport. And people are sitting on the floors everywhere. And there's. That guy is sitting at a table for two and there's an empty seat and I'm in like a 10 minute line to get a burger. And I said to myself, if that seat is open when I get my burger, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to say, I watched you for six hours in 20 degree weather. I mean, I don't know how. It was so freaking cold. And I get my burger and that seat's Open. And so I walk over and I go, can I sit down? And he kind of looks at me suspiciously. And he goes, you know, it's an open seat. And I go, I watched you for several hours at the inauguration. And he goes, really? He goes, where were you? I go, I was on the front row. I was the first guy standing. You were also the first guy standing. We were at 40 yards away. He goes, you did watch me. And I go, you were very. You were having a day. And he goes, I was. And I said, tell me about it. Tell me about why that meant something so much to you. His grandfather had been lynched, and he's a black man, and this is the first black president. And he just kind of opened up, tear in his eye, beautiful conversation. We Talked for, like, 40 minutes. Somebody comes up and asks for his autograph. And I. He. That guy walked away. And I said, I'm sorry, who? Like, why would that person want your autograph? He goes, well, you know, I've done some stuff on tv, so people who know me, know me, and it's not that big a deal. And I said, oh, what. What were you on? He goes, the Wire. And I realized I just watched, like, immediately. I went, oh, you're the guy. That's why I. That's why I. That's why I watched you. That's why I was like, there's something fascinating about the guys because I'd actually spent, like, hours with them. Wendell Pierce is the actor's name. Anyway, the Wire, that's an unrelated story, but that dude was awesome. And then Treme.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Okay, might be the second. Okay, might be the second.

[Kyle Reed]

I have not watched this. I feel like that needs. I need to go do that.

[Donald Miller]

Tremay will hook you, man.

[Kyle Reed]

Really?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, it's. It's New Orleans after Katrina. It's. What's his name? Who got his start on Roseanne?

[Kyle Reed]

John Goodman.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, it's John Goodman.

[Kyle Reed]

He's awesome.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And Woody Harrelson, I believe.

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, okay.

[Donald Miller]

That's cool. And what was fascinating about that show is the plot moved a quarter inch an episode. It's the slowest moving plot of anything I've ever seen. And you can't stop watching it.

[Kyle Reed]

There's something special about stories. It's like, on its face, you could have just said, yeah, I was at the inauguration. I saw this gentleman on my left. He was interesting. And I would just walked away. But there's something that we just did there where now I know a little more about you because you told me that story.

[Donald Miller]

Now I'm going to remember that it's not neural mapping. There's a name for it. Neuromirroring.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Okay, so there's these guys, there's a few different story sort of scholars, and they all. Paul Zak, Yuri Hasson and Raymond Marr. I know this because I'm reading their names. But they all basically come up with the same theory on why stories. Not really why stories work, but how they work. And they get this. One of them calls them neural mapping, the other calls it neural coupling, neural mirroring. They're all three saying the same thing, that when you tell a story, you are in essence taking over the thoughts of another person's brain. In other words, I'm going to speak into your brain and I'm going to hijack your actual thoughts. And. Yeah, that's how powerful stories are powerful. And so you are vicariously living through me during the time that I'm telling you this story. And your thoughts and I are the same. So my first chess move in this competition of who can explain why that worked to you? My opening move is it works because of. I'm going to have a few other things, but one of them is connection.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

That when you're actually like the Matrix, right. You're hooked into somebody else's thoughts and you guys are having the same thoughts. And we are in our own bodies, in our own minds, but we are actually connected and having a simultaneous experience at the time. But that that story is being told that I'm telling you this story and I think connection, right. You say, well, that's not why it works, that's just connection. But connection is associated with survival because two people can survive better than one. So the more connected two people are, the more safety you feel.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And I posit that is one reason stories have succeeded. It's actually the way to connect cultures. A lot of other reasons we're going to get.

[Kyle Reed]

Well, it's interesting that you said that because some of the. I was doing some research and just the basic. Why do stories work? Asking that question. And one of the things I found was they link it back early on beginning of man, where it was a survival mechanism.

[Donald Miller]

How so?

[Kyle Reed]

So they would use it.

[Donald Miller]

So we both are coming up the same.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, they would use it to share. Basically. She's like, here's the information I know about surviving out here. Let me help you understand.

[Donald Miller]

When I encounter this danger over by river.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes. And so. Exactly. And so it was a way big cave were so big bear. Yes. When you walk this way Be careful type thing, you know? And that was the way they survived. It was a massive survival mechanism.

[Donald Miller]

It's also like an incredibly efficient and effective way to teach.

[Kyle Reed]

So to your point, 100%.

[Donald Miller]

I mean, one of the number one things. People send me books all the time, their books. Like, hey, can you give me feedback on this book? I hate doing it.

[Kyle Reed]

Why?

[Donald Miller]

Because if I send you a book and I want feedback on it, all I want is bad news.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

And amateurs only want affirmation.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, makes sense.

[Donald Miller]

They want you to tell them that they're a secret genius. But that's not why. You know, the only reason you're sending me a book is I'm going to tell you how to fix it. And the number one thing that needs to be fixed is you need more stories.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

You are giving me. This is the equivalent of a keyNote presentation with 37 bullet points on every slide.

[Kyle Reed]

I feel like you've said, I've heard you say this somewhere. I'm going to butcher this. But there's something with writing where for like every. Is it chapters, you need to have X amount of stories. Have you said something like that before?

[Donald Miller]

Probably. So, yeah, I'm trying to hold. The idea is more stories, more stories, more stories. Can you. Can you communicate this via story? By the way, most of my first drafts of any chapter, I give myself the same criticism. So I have to go back and say, okay, but can you tell that through a story? Like if you go back through my bestselling books, Building a story, Brand Blue, Like Jazz, probably twice as many stories as the books that the other books. And I think an intellectual has a real problem with that because they're trying to disseminate knowledge, and it's knowledge that they want people to care about and they can't. Their brains just don't work that way. They can't keep caring about this list that you've created. Right. It's got to be, you know, rather than China is eavesdropping. It's got to be. One time when I was in China, I found a bug in my phone and there was this guy following me, got into the elevator. Now you just tell me which one is more interesting, right? Yes, that's what it is.

[Kyle Reed]

And you remember it.

[Donald Miller]

And you. Yeah, and you remember it. That's interesting to explore that. Why do you think we remember stories so well?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, that's. I think it goes back to that kind of like early on that's wired in our DNA is stories. And that's how information was, you know, passed on. There was no such thing as books. There was no, you know, visual medium. It was all word of mouth. That's the most powerful is when you hear that story.

[Donald Miller]

It passes well. It translates well. This is also. Before they could write it down.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes. And so is all. Yeah. Oral.

[Donald Miller]

Oral. Yep.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. For me, you know, I think about some of my favorite books are ones that are narrative form and they sneak the principles of the teaching. Yeah. Or just like telling. Some of my favorite books are ones that tell their story, but use the story to teach you. I connect with that so much more than just here's the five leadership principles you should do when leading a business. Yeah, I want to hear about your story and how you navigated that story. Those always have connected with me far more.

[Donald Miller]

Even the nonfiction ones.

[Kyle Reed]

Absolutely. Those are the ones I want.

[Donald Miller]

Did you ever read. Have you ever read Norman Mailer?

[Kyle Reed]

No.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, you would love him.

[Kyle Reed]

Really? Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, my gosh. Well, he was a controversial dude. I mean, back in the day, like, stabbed his wife with a ballpoint pen at a dinner party or something like that. Who hasn't?

[Kyle Reed]

I mean, let's be honest. Gosh, that sounds horrible.

[Donald Miller]

He was just a jerk of a human being. What did he write about the Executioner Song? He won the Pulitzer. I think for Executioner Song might be noble. Somebody fact checked me and then tell yourself whether I'm right. You think this is like a high budget podcast we got here. We don't have a fact checker. Go listen to Joe Rogan. We just say, shit. But Norman Mailer wrote the Executioner Song and it was the story. Okay, here's some interesting facts. You want to bullet point a keynote presentation. There was a time in this country in the 70s when a single person had not been executed in 10 years.

[Kyle Reed]

Really?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Like. Like death chamber.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

It was firing squads. So it had been 10 years. In Utah, it had been 30 years, and a guy named Gary Gilmore killed a guy and he was executed by a firing squad. Can you. I mean, that's crazy, right? You gotta put 10 people with a rifle and they stuck him in a chair and put a pillowcase over his head. And then who knows who has the blanks or the bullet?

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, even more interesting.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, like, super fascinating. So Norman Mailer, who was an asshole and a genius, unbelievable writer, he writes a book called the Executioner Song, and it's about the execution of Gary Gilmore. And he does it in a style that was new in the sense that he told a true story, like a novel.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

So he went in and Gary, it's, you know, it's. And it's his girlfriend and his mom. He grew up in a trailer in Portland, Oregon. He ends up in Utah and he ends up killing this guy. And I remember about. It's a big old giant book. I used to have a first edition copy. And he, he gets to the part where I thought, okay, this guy's a good writer. He's Hemingway esque. Way more long winded than Hemingway. And the sense, it's just like brutal short sentences. And then he gets to the part where Gary does drugs. And I got to that part of the book thinking, Norman, I don't understand why this guy won the Pulitzer. And Gary Gilmore does drugs. And for like 30 minutes, I feel high. He hijacked my freaking brain. And I felt like I was on a drug trip.

[Kyle Reed]

That good? That was that good, right?

[Donald Miller]

And I'm like, okay, give this man an award or something.

[Kyle Reed]

Did he win?

[Donald Miller]

Keep him from stabbing his wife, but give him the award.

[Kyle Reed]

Did he win a Pulitzer?

[Donald Miller]

I believe it's a Pulitzer, yeah. I don't think he won the Nobel Prize. Okay, that's Steinbeck. Yeah, but Steinbeck is another one. Oh, gosh. Anyway, I digress. So that brought out this whole execution topic big time. And it was because of Norman Mailer that that became a national debate. He didn't really have a position, by the way, on whether we should execute people or not. But you had an enormous amount of sympathy for Gary Gilmore by the end of it. Because this dude had a really screwed up life. And my point is, because he did it in a story, we actually started debating whether or not we should be bringing this back. And probably because of Executioner Song is the reason we don't use firing squads.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Because that powerful story. Wow.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

If you don't do that, then we started electron. Someone needs to write a book about that.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Anyway.

[Kyle Reed]

Well, I think it, you know, as you're talking about that I'm thinking about why do stories work for me? It's the human connection humanizes an issue. Yeah, it's. It's the. If I'm staring at the TV or I'm staring at another human and I'm looking for how do we connect? I'm looking for their story. I'm trying to find ways that make us human. You know, I think it's the difference between a inanimate object, like this coffee cup is sitting right next to me versus being able to connect with the story that you have. It connects us. It gives me more info about you. Those are my favorite kind of shows, documentaries.

[Donald Miller]

It can devalue or value something. Right. Like if you tell a story about Stalin killing all the people that he killed. Stalin used to get everybody drunk, and then he would make his own leadership dance with each other for his entertainment. He was a total psychopath. And you tell that story about Stalin and even though he killed a million people. Here's what I'm saying. You could put up on a thing. Here's the millions of people Stalin killed and the peasant community that he oppressed. And you'd be like, that's a bad guy. As soon as I tell you that he'd get his own leadership drunk and make them dance with each other and kiss each other for his entertainment. Cause he wanted to feel powerful. You hate him.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And I told you he killed a million people. Like, that's a bad guy. But when I actually. Oh, that's a. It's a fricking story. Right. It's the story that does it equally. Do you remember Pulp Fiction?

[Kyle Reed]

Yep.

[Donald Miller]

I think Quentin Tarantino is one of the greatest storytellers alive today, and I think his dialogue is the best. He's one of the great storytellers. You got to get Spielberg and George Lucas. You gotta get those guys up there. But his dialogue is better than anybody has ever written. Do you remember when. Who was the actor in that movie with the watch, with his grandfather's watch? Christopher Walken. Christopher Walken leans down and he's talking to Bruce Willis when he's a kid, and he talks about how his dad or somebody's grandfather, I can't remember, shoves this watch up his butt to get it out of some war that he was in. I'm butchering this story. And he's holding this watch. I'm going to give you this watch. It's the story that made the fricking watch valuable. Right. It's the story behind it.

[Kyle Reed]

Absolutely. It's it. That. That's the kind of stuff I love. It's. It's those moments where you can use the power of story to make something that's an animate object that's just a coffee mug. More powerful.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Because something. I got this from somewhere. Something happened. There's a story to this.

[Bobby Richards]

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[Kyle Reed]

You know I'm sitting with you talking what makes a good story to you.

[Donald Miller]

All right, now we're getting into it.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

There'S a lot, but I think that essentially like to, to, to break it down on how you actually tell a good story. It's all about opening and closing story loops. That's what it's about. Yeah, if you, if you say, why do we pay attention? The human brain. By the way, here's a geek fact. Human brain spends 30% of its time daydreaming on average when you're watching a story. None. Well, you don't daydream, however, you're kind of daydreaming the whole time because neural mirroring takes over.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, they're taking over.

[Donald Miller]

And that like when you sit down in a movie theater and the screen goes dim, that screen starts taking over your thought. It thinks for you. It does all of the work. It thinks for you for two hours. And there are structures in place that have been passed down over time that probably started for the first time being written down in poetics 2000, however many years ago. And then those practices and storytelling have gotten better and better over time. Until now it's really cleaned up. And they know exactly when to open the story loop and exactly when to close the story loop and when to open a subplot before you close this other story loop. And they can kind of hijack your brain really well. And there are formulas for how to do this. Now in terms of like modern storytelling, probably Blake Snyder's book Save the Cat captures it the best and makes it the most accessible to anybody who wants to tell a story. Book is called Save the Cat because that's a, that's a scheme that you use inside of a plot to make people interested. You have the hero save a cat at the beginning. So that he just went with Save the cat. Robert McKee talks about this in his book Story. Christopher Booker wrote the best book ever written, in my opinion, on story and story structure and Analyzing stories. That book is called the Seven Basic Plots. He argues there are only seven plots that work, and he unpacks all of them. Some people say there are nine, but really the other two are kind of derivatives of some of the seven that Christopher Booker talks about. But it's extremely formulaic. So at the beginning, in an Act 3 structure, you're going to have a hero. You got to do something to make us like the hero, I. E. Save the cat. And then that hero is going to be thrown into an inciting incident. They have a stable life that is suddenly unstable. Right. They're in a car accident. Their kid is. You know, if you're Liam Neeson, your kid was kidnapped. You know, you're an alcoholic and somebody knocks on your door, it's Child protective services, and they're bringing you a kid you didn't know you had. And you gotta clean up your life. I mean, I'm describing so many stories.

[Kyle Reed]

Right now, so many movies.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah. You're 40 pounds overweight, you're walking through the grocery store, you just got divorced. And the love of your life, girl who you had in high school, walks in. She's a yoga instructor, and she makes a passing comment of like, I'd love to see you again. You know, and then you're like, okay, I gotta lose 40 pounds. Now, I got a movie about a guy who has 40 pounds.

[Kyle Reed]

Now the story begins.

[Donald Miller]

It's the inciting incident, and then it goes all the way through, sort of the, you know, Act 1, Act 2, Act 3, you know, midpoint climax, the all is lost moment, you know, all that kind of stuff. But it's very, very formulaic. There are geniuses who can play with the formulas. You really can't break them. Megalopolis was the last movie I saw that me and a buddy walked out of it. Because it was so bad. Yeah, because who did the Godfather was in our Resident. It wasn't expert Francis Ford Coppola. It's supposed to be his genius movie. His. His.

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Holy crap, that was awful.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

I was embarrassed for Adam Driver and all the other John Voight is in it.

[Kyle Reed]

But it's because they. They told a bad story.

[Donald Miller]

They didn't use it. They didn't at all. And he was so arrogant and conceited. It was awful, awful, awful movie. In fact, Thad, my buddy and I were there, and I'm going. If I was alone, I'd walk out of this. But my buddy Thad is with me. I convinced him to come see It. And he actually goes, do you know what's happening? And I lean over and I go, I know that the Seahawks are on television and that there's a sports bar called the Crow's Nest across the street. And Thad just got up and you.

[Kyle Reed]

Told a better story in that moment. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Well, not only did we, did I, we went to the football. We're going to do an episode on football.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And I'm going to talk about how it works in terms of story structure to keep you hooked.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, so you open a story loop.

[Donald Miller]

Okay, so here it's all opening and closing of story loops is what makes you interested in a story.

[Kyle Reed]

Can I take us in a little bit of a right turn? How is story telling how storytelling evolved with social media? Have you noticed that? Have you noticed that?

[Donald Miller]

I think, yeah, it's. Well, social media can't tell a full three act story, so it's likely. Likely. This is a good question. I haven't thought about it, but I would say that a good social media post that goes viral is either opening or closing a story loop. So, like I had one on, on how to Deal with a Narcissist and it got 11 million. I mean, it's probably 20 million views by now. I don't really know. That was powerful because it closed a very emotionally charged story loop for some people. In other words, like, if they're dealing with a narcissist, they don't realize it's a narcissist. And I come on and I say, here's how a narcissist is going to react when you do this. All of a sudden they go, I have been aching to figure out what was going on with that dude and that dude is a narcissist. And so. But if I would have done that by saying, like, here's three reasons that people are narcissists. I don't know if it would have closed an emotional story loop. So they all had an open story loop in their mind. And I close.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, that's interesting. Actually. That kind of makes me. There's so many things to think about that because even if you're like writing a book, that's a direction you could actually take a book in on leadership where rather than you're trying to introduce principles, you're trying to help people close story loops that they have open about leadership.

[Donald Miller]

Whatever. Well, there's a lot of books that have sold a lot of copies. I mean, who's pulling my strings is a book about closing the story loops that narcissists have opened in your life. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Closing story loops. Have you ever 7 habits of highly effective people Closing a story loop of how can I make my life more effective. Right.

[Kyle Reed]

Have you ever heard of the trend Get Ready with me on, like, TikTok Instagram? So there are people who will record themselves getting ready for the day, and there's a couple of them who've, like, just taken off. And so think about, are they editing.

[Donald Miller]

It or were they just.

[Kyle Reed]

No, there's some. Well, even the guy you brought up yesterday, the YouTuber Sam. I'm gonna butcher his last name. Soledadec or something. The guy who works out.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, yeah, yeah. The guy who, like. Yeah, he's like. He's the biggest massive guy.

[Kyle Reed]

But these. These girls who usually do this, they do the makeup or something like that. They're called Get Ready with me videos. And they sit there for sometimes an hour while they're doing their makeup, telling stories. And that's.

[Donald Miller]

Is it the stories that are hooking or stories? It's like people don't want to be alone. And so they're.

[Kyle Reed]

The stories they're talking about, you know, what they're doing that day or what they did the night before, whatever it is, they're just storytelling.

[Donald Miller]

Okay, this might be a little bit of a tangent, but I saw something on Instagram that said, if you want to build a following on Instagram, there are only three reasons people want to follow you. Or the three reasons are one, they want to sleep with you. Two, they want to be your friend, or three, they want to be you. So if you want to grow a following, be somebody that people either want to sleep with, be somebody that seems like, I would love to have that person as a friend or three, or be somebody that other people want to.

[Kyle Reed]

Be and tell that story.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's a story, but it's like, I wonder if that doesn't play into those. The ladies in their closet.

[Kyle Reed]

I think it does. I think 100% does.

[Donald Miller]

Because that's their friend. That's their.

[Kyle Reed]

It actually nails both sides. I want to be you. And I also want to be your friend.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. You know, we didn't even get into, like, the importance. The characteristics of a hero that works.

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, my goodness. There's so many angles. Well, and I think that's why, you know, if you look at. Across. Across every single. Whether it be marketing, tv, daily life, relationships, most of it revolves around story.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And that's why I would say stories.

[Donald Miller]

Work, I think, to Narrow down my position on why stories work.

[Kyle Reed]

Your thesis.

[Donald Miller]

They offer three things.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

Connection, which we talked about. Neural mirroring. So I'm connected to somebody. They also. And Robert McKee talks about this in his book Story. It explains the world. And what he means by that is, when I tell a story, I am giving you my position on what matters, what's worth pursuing, what needs to be avoided, who's bad, who's good. It's a mental map. It explains where I am in this sort of construct of social interaction that we're having in this world. And all of that is interesting for another reason. It is because knowing where I am on the map and not being alone comforts me, and it does another thing prepares me against a threat. So that is my explanation that I posit to you on why stories took off. They comfort us and they prepare us. So the underlying issue behind stories is that it's all connected to my survival.

[Kyle Reed]

Yep. And it helps.

[Donald Miller]

It's going to help me survive.

[Kyle Reed]

And I love what you said. It helps us make sense of the world.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, well, that's. Robert McKee says that it's. It's connection, sense, making comfort, and survival. All right, here's a question. Okay, I went down this tangent. How did Jim Jones, Guyana cult leader out of San Francisco, who killed all those people, how did he use story? Let me just ask you this. How was. Without story, those people are. He used story to basically create a horrible tragedy.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

And I think all cult leaders do it. And I actually think. I agree with some people who think that the Republican and Democratic Party acts more like a cult these days than it does like, parties that are trying to get things, like trying to fill potholes and stuff.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, they definitely use story to do that.

[Donald Miller]

They use story.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

But cult leaders are inviting people into a story in which they play an important role. And so I went back and I kind of looked at what Jim Jones did. He created a compelling origin story. He portrayed himself as sort of a misunderstood child, that he had special abilities and that he was. He fostered sort of an intrigue and a sense of destiny. There's something special about him. Right. So he's not just the storyteller. He's the Christ figure. And you actually look at David Koresh and he said he was Christ. Right. And then you look at Mao Zedong Christ figure. You look at Xi Jinping Christ figure. Quite honestly, you look at sort of Barack Obama, Donald Trump. There's a sort of like Donald Trump actually says, I am the chosen one.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, the Same.

[Donald Miller]

Now, I'm not saying he's being manipulative, because maybe he is the chosen one to fix whatever, I don't know. But there's something that we're drawn to.

[Kyle Reed]

He'll go as far as even saying, they come after me because they want to get to you. So there's that kind of savior complex.

[Donald Miller]

Right. He's the one who's going to rescue you. So that's the other thing that's necessary in a story is a threat. So you have to have a utopian society that I'm going to build a grand vision for the future. I saw this on Instagram the other day. It was one of the reasons your wife has lost interest in you is you are not offering any sort of vision of a better future.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And so she's, you know. And I'm like, well, that's for husbands, too, probably. And it's also for kids, like, if you're a dad. Because I'm a dad. So I'm speaking to dads. I'm not saying this is only for dads, but a vision for your family's future is massive. Even if it's just like, you know, we're gonna go to Disney World or something.

[Kyle Reed]

I'd call it like an adventure.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. An adventure that has something you've lost.

[Kyle Reed]

I've got buddies that have lost adventure in their life.

[Donald Miller]

So let me be clear. I'm not trying to say we as dads can learn a lot from Jim Jones. Let's just talk about how story structure works.

[Kyle Reed]

We, as dads can learn a lot. From stories.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, from stories. But Jim offered, like, a utopian society. David Kressh did the same thing. And then fear and apocalyptic things. This is where I would not say we should do this as dads, by the way, but creating an urgency that is dependent on your leadership, this is massive. It's an urgency that is dependent on a strong man to get us through this. And then a sort of. He did a lot of, like, ritualized loyalty. So he would ritualize. They did suicide drills. And so he was practicing and. Yeah, he, like, was warming them up to actually go through with it someday. Because if you think about it, if he didn't ritualize and do suicide drills, ritualized loyalty is really important.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, that's what he was checking. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

But it also creates an us versus them mentality. It blurs. It's very hard for the human brain to know what's real and what's not real when you give them a story. The story I'VE always thought this is kind of interesting. With a lot of people, once you tell them a story, even if it's fiction, it's hard for them not to believe it's real. And even if they know it's not real, they'll suspend disbelief and act that way. Anyway. Let me ask you this. Why do you think people dress up as characters and go to Comic Con?

[Kyle Reed]

Wow. I mean, it's the mirroring of joining in on the. You're in the story now.

[Donald Miller]

There's something there. I don't know what it is. Yeah, I'm in the story. I'm blurring fiction from reality. I'm actually dressing up as this. I'm escaping to that place, escaping my own. And you know what I think it is? They are attracted to a role that is better than the role they're playing in the world.

[Kyle Reed]

They're being called into that story and that it's an identity they're putting on. It's an identity that they don't. It's almost like they use. This might be a little overgeneralization, but it's like the putting on the costume allows them to be someone else, and they can kind of hide behind that, you know, in the story.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, I think that. I don't know. What's your takeaway from all the kind of looking at it that you did? Like, how does it change the way you live when you do stories work?

[Kyle Reed]

I think the biggest thesis I would walk away with is. Is when I worked on this was, what story am I calling. What we talked about, what am I calling my family into? Yeah, what story am I living out?

[Donald Miller]

What'd you do about that? Did you do anything? Are you not. You need to do something?

[Kyle Reed]

I know a little bit of both. I'm doing something in the way of, like, how we're even operating day to day. But also, I'm still thinking on, like, you know, you've challenged me a lot in the way that you got. Your family has a mission statement.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, kind of.

[Kyle Reed]

This is what we do. So I'm thinking about that for the new year, and I'm thinking about what adventure am I calling my girls into on a daily basis?

[Donald Miller]

If you give those girls a role to play in a really great story, you know what happens? Some asshole comes along and when they go to college, who has a role to play? And that role is to serve them and serve their needs and whatever. And because they've played a better role that you created, they're just like, you're full of shit.

[Kyle Reed]

Dude, I'm out.

[Donald Miller]

I am not. Yeah. Like, are you kidding me?

[Kyle Reed]

That's what I want.

[Donald Miller]

I think it's like self esteem, right? It's like, are you kidding me? Yeah. This role that you want me to play with you is so beneath me that I cast you in my mind as a fool.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. And that's how powerful it is, calling into that identity.

[Donald Miller]

That's where we talk about structuring story and living into them in a way that changes the world for the better.

[Kyle Reed]

That's right.

[Donald Miller]

And I think that's what the call of every leader. Every leader is. To say this crap we've been doing is totally beneath our humanity. You are the pinnacle of God's creation.

[Kyle Reed]

That's right.

[Donald Miller]

And we are going to do something really good. Here's what we're going to do.

[Kyle Reed]

I think that's. If I had to wrap this episode up, it would be that stories are powerful. You can use them in one of, you know, you can use them for their power in a positive way or a negative way. And then the other thing I'm walking away with is kind of. I got to think about this more was when you said some things work because you're helping people close story loops.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And that's.

[Donald Miller]

Well, you know when somebody asks. When somebody asks when somebody wants to write a book or whatever.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

I say to them, the books that do the best and are most appreciated and respected are books that solve a specific problem. What problem does your book solve? And if they can't answer that, that book's not going to. They're going to have trouble writing it and it's not going to sell.

[Kyle Reed]

And that's not just for books. That's for.

[Donald Miller]

That's for everything.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

Well, you know, I think it's true of just. Even in. Even when you talk about your value as a person that, you know, God loves us unconditionally. People love conditionally. So let's not try to get mad because people aren't God. That's really unfair thing to say. So if you want to fit in with people, be useful, and my question is, what problem do you have?

[Kyle Reed]

What problem do you solve? Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Like, do you solve the problem of disloyal friends? If you solve the problem of disloyal friends, you're have a lot of friends.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, yeah. That's the problem.

[Donald Miller]

If you solve the problem. You know, women, I think, want to be involved in an emotionally interesting and engaging story. Listen to my single dudes out there. You cast a vision for your future. That is emotionally interesting and engaging and adventurous, but also safe. You're gonna have a great time. You're gonna have a lot of trouble.

[Kyle Reed]

You're gonna say you're gonna. A great life.

[Donald Miller]

You are gonna have a great life because you're gonna attract a really amazing woman.

[Kyle Reed]

Absolutely.

[Donald Miller]

And by the way, I think women are the same way. Like, if you are living a story where you have a lot of problem with men and men are the villain, good luck ever having a healthy relationship with a strong. You're gonna find weak men who want you to be mommy, you know, and their mom was a. Was a horrible person, and they're now trying to mend that relationship through you. That's never gonna work.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

So actually, just think about what role or what role. What use am I, what, what vision am I heading toward? You know, what role are other people playing in my life? And if they're playing a really noble role toward a great cause. I think you're gonna have a great life.

[Kyle Reed]

Well, as cheesy as it sounds, what story are you living? Are you living a good life?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. What story are you living?

[Kyle Reed]

Or a bad one?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, let's end with this.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

The point is, if you do not decide what the story you're living in is and what role you're gonna play and what important and noble role other people are gonna play in your story. And by the way, you're playing a role in their story, too. So it goes both ways. Other people are going to dictate your story.

[Kyle Reed]

That's right.

[Donald Miller]

And those people are going to be political parties, corporations. Right. Religion, all of that stuff. And all of the. All the roles are going to play in their story. Going to benefit them.

[Kyle Reed]

Yep, that's right.

[Donald Miller]

It's going to benefit them.

[Kyle Reed]

That's right. You're right. 100%.

[Donald Miller]

So take, you know, it's your fault. It's your fault. Your story sucks. You let somebody else take it over and you played a pong.

[Kyle Reed]

And the great part is you can start living a great story today.

[Bobby Richards]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free custom message, customized tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.