Why That Worked #7: Comedians—The Science and Strategy Behind the Funniest People on Earth

Summary

Podcast Summary: Marketing Made Simple
Episode: Why That Worked #7: Comedians—The Science and Strategy Behind the Funniest People on Earth
Release Date: February 19, 2025
Host/Author: Powered by StoryBrand

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Introduction

In this episode of Marketing Made Simple, hosts Donald Miller and Kyle Reed delve into the intriguing world of comedians, exploring the scientific and strategic elements that make humor such a powerful tool in marketing and human connection. The conversation touches upon the authenticity of comedians, their disciplined craft, and the profound impact they have on culture and personal growth.

The Uniqueness of Comedy

Donald Miller opens the discussion by reflecting on the peculiar nature of comedy:
"Have you ever just... I mean, if you were like an alien and you came and you'd be like, what are these people? I don't understand what these people are doing. That guy's not actually saying anything. How weird is it? The comedians exist?" ([02:56])

He highlights the seemingly paradoxical existence of comedians who gather large audiences to laugh at someone else's expressions and stories.

Authenticity in Comedy

A pivotal moment in the episode is when Andrew Schulz is introduced via a clip:
"Larry David is an experiment in authenticity. It's what would it be like if you were your true self 24 hours a day." ([08:25])

This sentiment resonates deeply with both hosts, emphasizing that authenticity is a cornerstone of effective comedy. Donald Miller adds,
"They say what we think... or their ability. They have a way of articulating what we think about something totally." ([09:31])

The Discipline Behind the Laughs

The hosts explore the rigorous discipline that comedians employ to perfect their craft. Donald Miller shares anecdotes about Jerry Seinfeld's relentless dedication:
"He works his butt off at one point. He actually put the pieces of paper of jokes... so you could physically see. It was like 40 yards of individual yellow pieces of paper that he had written on to actually come up." ([21:04])

Similarly, Kyle Reed discusses how comedians like Joe Rogan spend hours writing daily, debunking the myth that comedy is purely spontaneous:
"He'll spend two to three hours just writing, just writing every day." ([24:55])

Comedians as Cultural Commentators

Donald Miller likens comedians to cultural philosophers:
"They are presenting something that has been so freaking polished that you're actually, without knowing it, watching a master of their art deliver it so incredibly well." ([31:55])

He draws parallels between comedians and influential figures like Bob Dylan and Jack Kerouac, who also crafted their public personas meticulously to resonate with audiences.

Building a Community Through Comedy

A significant point is the role of comedians in fostering community. Kyle Reed notes,
"Comedians have the ability to connect with humans. And when you do that, well, you can move people to do something." ([37:37])

This connection is likened to maintaining friendships, where trusted comedians can draw audiences to events much like close friends would.

The Therapeutic Power of Laughter

The episode touches on the therapeutic aspects of comedy. Kyle Reed shares a personal story illustrating how comedy provides an escape from life's hardships:
"Comedy, like it kind of pulls you out of moments where it's like the everyday grind of life... just have the chance to kind of just go off to a place." ([18:38])

Donald Miller concurs, stating,
"There's something therapeutic about it that commiserating about our miseries." ([19:20])

The Economics of Comedy

The hosts also discuss the impressive financial success of top comedians, highlighting figures such as Nate Bragazzi earning $80 million from 163 shows and Dave Chappelle bringing in $44 million from 30 shows. These numbers underscore the lucrative nature of comedy when combined with effective community building and disciplined performance.

Conclusion

In wrapping up, Donald Miller prompts listeners to reflect on their favorite comedians and the reasons behind comedy's effectiveness:
"Comedians exist... to entertain, to articulate our thoughts, and to foster a sense of community through shared laughter." ([38:22])

Notable Quotes

• Donald Miller ([02:56]):
  "Have you ever just... I mean, if you were like an alien and you came and you'd be like, what are these people?"

• Andrew Schulz ([08:25]):
  "Larry David is an experiment in authenticity. It's what would it be like if you were your true self 24 hours a day."

• Donald Miller ([09:31]):
  "They say what we think... or their ability. They have a way of articulating what we think about something totally."

• Donald Miller ([21:04]):
  "He actually put the pieces of paper of jokes... 40 yards of individual yellow pieces of paper that he had written on to actually come up."

• Kyle Reed ([18:38]):
  "Comedy... pulls you out of moments where it's like the everyday grind of life."

• Kyle Reed ([37:37]):
  "Comedians have the ability to connect with humans. And when you do that, well, you can move people to do something."

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This episode provides a comprehensive exploration of the multifaceted role comedians play in both marketing and society at large. By dissecting the authenticity, discipline, and community-building prowess of comedians, Miller and Reed offer valuable insights into why humor remains an essential element in effective marketing strategies.

Transcript

[Bobby Richards]

Hey hero makers, it's podcast producer Bobby Richards. I'm jumping in to share with you a new episode of our brand new podcast why that worked, presented by StoryBrand AI with Donald Miller back in the host seat. Now, since we launched Marketing Made simple, we've been so grateful to have everybody tune in each week to learn how to make your marketing easy and make it work. Which is exactly why we're sharing new episodes of the why that Worked podcast here. In the old Marketing Made simple feedback, but only for a limited time. Each episode of the new show is going to deliver actionable insights and key takeaways that are all designed so you can implement them to help make whatever you're working on work. Now here's the deal. Like I said, this is only for a limited time. If you want to catch new episodes early, you can watch or listen every Monday. To watch the show, just go subscribe to the StoryBrand YouTube channel. And to listen, go follow why that worked presented by StoryBrand AI wherever you enjoy your podcasts. All right, that's it for me. So grateful you're here and enjoy this week's episode of why that worked presented by StoryBrand AI.

[Kyle Reed]

Hey, it's Kyle Reed, co host of the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. I'm jumping in before today's episode with a big thank you. Thank you for spending your time with us each week, tuning in and sharing your feedback on how the show is resonating. In fact, I'd love to share some of your comments. Here's what you've been saying on Apple Podcasts. Episode one is mind opening. Love the simplicity shared of how to create a framework. Such a great episode. Fantastic. Really interesting and useful for my work. Thank you. Love the new format. The last two episodes have been life changing. Keep up the great work. Here's some comments we read on. Awesome show. You all love it. Love the new series. Great episode. It's both interesting and applicable. Can't wait for next week's episode. This is why we do what we do here at StoryBrand, empowering you to clarify your message, connect with your audience and grow your business. And your feedback and comments help us make the show even better so we can keep bringing you episodes that deliver more insights you can use in your business and your life. So keep them coming. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share your thoughts in the comments on YouTube. Your feedback helps us know what's exactly resonating with you so that we can select topics and deliver new fun value Packed episodes. And if you don't ever want to miss a new episode of the show, follow. Why that Worked. Wherever you listen to podcasts and like and subscribe on YouTube, thank you so much for being a part of this journey. We can't wait to hear what you have to say.

[Bobby Richards]

You're listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends, or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week, we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed.

[Donald Miller]

Kyle, how weird is it that you would pay 40 bucks, go to Zany's here in Nashville, sit down, get a beer, get some chicken wings. They need to improve their food, by the way.

[Kyle Reed]

That helps.

[Donald Miller]

And watch somebody stand up on stage and do a routine that's specifically designed to make you laugh. Have you ever just. I mean, if you were like an alien and you came and you'd be like, what are these people? I don't understand what these people are doing. That guy's not actually saying anything. How weird is it? The comedians exist? Is what I'm getting at weird?

[Kyle Reed]

Because to take it a step further, you know, we live in Nashville, Tennessee, and the last place I want to go to is downtown Nashville. And so the fact that on a.

[Donald Miller]

Tv, I love downtown.

[Kyle Reed]

I guess I'm more curmudgeon than you. The last thing I want to do on a Tuesday night is to, like, get dressed, drive downtown, deal with parking, you know, walk through the crowds, walk through the bachelorette parties and go sit in arena and laugh.

[Donald Miller]

You go see big comedians. If you're a British.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, I see up in a couple. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're more hip and trendy than I am, I guess. But yeah, it's weird. What a weird thing. And we're all sitting in a room, like 20,000 of us looking in the center of the room and laughing to someone. Talk and laughing. Who have you seen? Oh, so recently I saw Chappelle at Bridgestone.

[Donald Miller]

At Bridgestone, I had tickets to that Chappelle Joe Rogan show for all my buddies, and it got canceled.

[Kyle Reed]

So he. When he came back, I saw him.

[Donald Miller]

I don't think I ever got my money back for that.

[Kyle Reed]

I saw Bill Burr there. That was like six months ago. Seeing Bill Burr at bridge.

[Donald Miller]

Did he sell it out?

[Kyle Reed]

Almost. Not as much as Chappelle. They had half the room closed Off. So it wasn't. But I've never laughed. And a consistent, like, it was almost like a. Like I never had a moment to breathe because I was laughing the entire time. There was not a pause. Chappelle's more thoughtful. You know, you get a kind of a break and he's giving you some culture commentary. Bill Burr was just hit after hit after hit. It was so funny. So I've seen those guys recently. Buddies and I, when we go on like golf trips, we'll save up comedy specials and to break the drive up, we'll just sit there and listen to these latest ones out.

[Donald Miller]

And that's so much driving.

[Kyle Reed]

So, yeah, those are the last. What about you? What are the last kind of up and coming comics you've seen?

[Donald Miller]

I shouldn't position myself as a, you know, a collector of comedy shows. Betsy and I saw Seinfeld at tpac.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, that would be a bucket list type thing.

[Donald Miller]

It should be.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

It's the best. It's the most sort of professional dialed in master control of an audience I've ever seen in my life. And I'll say it now. Will ever see. You know, I love Nate Brigadzi. Obviously a Nashville guy. Super, super funny guy. Theo Vaughn is on some other planetary level of comedy he's coming from. It's almost like, hey, I'm Theo Vaughn. Here's comedy from Mars. It's just like, no, I don't know what world he's in.

[Kyle Reed]

You know, people think Elon Musk is an alien. Theo Vaughn is probably an alien.

[Donald Miller]

You could probably that as a conspiracy theory. By the way, Theo Vaughn would love it. Yeah, yeah, he's super funny. One of the most amazing nights I ever saw was John Acuff. I've known John for a long time. I met John when he was in high school.

[Kyle Reed]

No way.

[Donald Miller]

No. I met him at his house. I stayed at his house when I was doing a speaking gig because his dad had brought me in to speak in North Carolina, right across from University of North Carolina. And he was a kid and he was a cool kid, great kid. And I still think of his kid, he's like 40 something. He, John did one of the most amazing things I've ever seen a human being and certainly an acquaintance do. He booked two nights at Zany's, worked up a. An hour to hour to hour and 15 minute comedy routine. Walked on that stage and crushed it.

[Kyle Reed]

Wow.

[Donald Miller]

Crushed. From the time he got up there, the time he left, my wife and I went and did two nights in a row. I Might have given them the. He's not a comedian. Yeah, he's very funny. You listen to him speak and he's very funny, but he just nailed it. And you know, I knew as a speaker, never been a comedian, but I knew how hard. What he just did was how hard a work I would, I would equate it to training for an ironman intellectually and delivering. The audience loved him. He was great. Kudos. So that was one of the coolest nights I've ever seen.

[Kyle Reed]

The first thing I kind of really. And I think, you know, I think if you ask someone listening to this, they probably would. Would circle around. This answer is just the authentic side of things. So I came across this clip of Andrew Scholz, who's one of my favorite comedians. He's got a great podcast.

[Donald Miller]

I've never heard of him.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, he's. He's awesome.

[Donald Miller]

He's probably extremely popular.

[Kyle Reed]

You know, you only like the up and comers. And so I came across this clip and I think he did a better job summarizing than what I can. But I wanted to play this clip because I think one of the reasons why we need comedy or like why Andrew Schultz, Andrew Scholes. Scholz. Scholz, Yeah, I think that's how you say it.

[Donald Miller]

Spell his last name so folks can find him.

[Kyle Reed]

S, C, H, U, L, Z. Andrew Schulz. Yeah, he's great. So. But I came across this clip and I think he kind of summarized okay, why I think there's comedy. So let me, Let me just.

[Donald Miller]

Why it exists.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, like, let me play it. Let me play it.

[Bobby Richards]

The other part.

[Andrew Schulz]

Authenticity. I've always been drawn to. And we'll wrap this up right now. But I've always been drawn to Larry David and I tried to figure out why Larry David with was this amazing character that breaks all cultural barriers. Anybody you meet that, that has experienced. Larry David loves Larry David. Right? He's not just old Jewish people's favorite comic, he's young Puerto Rican's favorite comic too. Right. Why? And it's because Larry David is an experiment in authenticity. It's. What would it be like if you were your true self 24 hours a day. Right. Hey, can I have a bite of your sandwich?

[Donald Miller]

No.

[Andrew Schulz]

Why not? I don't like your mouth. We all want to say that, but don't swear. When we see somebody say, we gravitate to that. And I think that what I always believed is I was going to do authentic material. I was going to do material that came from me. It hits you in your Gut. I don't do material for how you want the world to be in stand up. I do material for how we know the world is down here.

[Kyle Reed]

So when I came across that, I was like, well, he just summarized how I feel.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

But I think that's which by the.

[Donald Miller]

Way, says everything about comedy. He summarized how I feel. That's one of my six reasons that I think comedy comedians exist. Reason number two was they say what we think.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Or their ability. They have a way of articulating what we think about something totally. That most people wouldn't have spent the time to actually sit there and try to articulate it.

[Kyle Reed]

And what I love about that is he doesn't say it in the way my dad would tell me how to say it. He makes me laugh. So it's like your dad's like, here's how the world works. He says it in a humor, humorous, story driven way that makes me laugh while also putting in authentic truth inside of it that I think that's what we're drawn to.

[Donald Miller]

You know, reason number one and number two for me were one, they say what they think and we, I think we admire somebody who actually will speak their mind. They're not being careful. Yeah, right. They're, of course they are being careful, but they're not being careful in the way that we are careful. And there's something about comedians is there's still a part of them that's feral. And there is something that is intuitively interesting about a feral human being. Now let, now let's say you got a pet dog.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. You don't?

[Donald Miller]

You have cats?

[Kyle Reed]

Not cats. Let's cats now.

[Donald Miller]

Cats and a dog. And you know, they're great. But wouldn't part of you want a cat that's like 10% bobcat? Yeah. Be honest. Just a little bit like could kill me.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

You know, I mean, there's something that's just, that's just kind of interesting about. We have this one cat, we got these two cats at a shelter. One cat, Trout, has a look of a wild jungle cat. Like it's not like a gray and white cat. It's kind of like a yellow and gray cat with these weird looking eyes. And I'm like, that's my favorite because it's kind of feral and kind of dangerous.

[Kyle Reed]

You don't know what it's gonna do sometimes.

[Donald Miller]

You don't know what it's going to do. And I think that they think when I say reason number one is they think they're slightly feral.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes. Well, I Think too, to jump on your point there. As we go out throughout our life, we kind of know the expectation of what's gonna happen during the day or in a conversation. It's kind of organized. A comedian will disrupt all of that by just opening up a line.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And you go, oh my. Like it jumped you. You, you know, you. You get knocked off where you're thinking and then you go down the path. It's kind of the wildness. Like you don't know what to expect.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And that's what I mean by Pharaoh.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

There's something interesting about something that you can't control. There's also something I think that we admire about somebody that you can't control. Like, you're not gonna. I. We just went and saw the. The documentary, the movie on Bob Dylan. I've seen it twice in the theaters now, and we'll probably see it a third time. Not because it's such a great movie, but it's actually worth studying both as a movie and as a personality. Also Scorsese's documentary no Direction Home, about Bob Dylan. But there was something about Bob Dylan that I summarized recently in an Instagram post. What made Bob Dylan famous is the quality of his work. He wrote songs that can't be ignored. They can't be ignored. You cannot ignore. You can't ignore Blowing in the Wind. You can't ignore like a Rolling stone. Quality, quantity. 60 plus albums, 44, I think studio albums. I mean, just ridiculous and constant. His tour is called the Never Ending Tour because it started and it's never finished. And then third was, his attitude was, you will not control me. I will stand up here on this stage and deliver this, this concert with an electric band while you boo me and call me Judas. And the fact that he think about, he did that. He did that in his European tour. He did that at Newport Folk Festival. They were booing him. They were throwing things at him because they wanted Blowing in the Wind acoustic. And he gets up there and he's copying the Kinks, you know. And that is now arguably the greatest album ever. Most widely respected album ever, is the one that was being booed. And it's almost like comedians in some ways go, first they go out there and they go, I'm gonna say something that is gonna be charged. It's going to be probably a little bit offensive to you. It's gonna be taboo. And you get to watch somebody jump off the high, dive into a 2 inch baby pool of water.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And there's something that's Just like this dude's crazy. He's gonna, that's crazy that he's gonna say that.

[Kyle Reed]

But they change culture. I mean, you know.

[Donald Miller]

Well, they do change culture. Yeah. It gets to why probably they're important or not important, I don't know. Or, you know, they're either good for us or bad for us. I think they're probably a little bit of both.

[Kyle Reed]

I think they're good for us though, because it's almost like you need that person in the room who will say the thing that everybody's afraid to say and go first to your point.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And take the risk.

[Donald Miller]

Well, that's reason number two on my list is they say what they think is somehow admirable. They say what we think is the second reason that I think they're. They say what we think, but we're just not willing to say.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Are we afraid to say?

[Donald Miller]

We're afraid to say, yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And they say it in a way that we probably couldn't articulate, you know, as well. Yeah. One of the things I would add to that is they, one of the reasons I found was I think comedy works because they, they understand culture. And what I mean by that is if you think about a comedian, there's all kinds of different people walking in to the room that they have to make laugh. And so, you know, a couple episodes ago we talked about thought leaders and one of the things is you mentioned in the episode, you talk about tribes, like, we like to affirm, bias our thoughts and we gravitate to a thought leader that basically, you know, but a comedian doesn't always have that opportunity or ability to have a room of like minded people because there's all kinds of different, you know, people walking into the room and they have to be able to culturally commentate on something in an entertaining way that's broad. And I think comedians and the reason why comedy works is because we kind of need that shared experience of people seeing this overarching, like absurdity that we're all thinking about that you're now telling us in a funny way it's a joint experience.

[Donald Miller]

I mean, even Nate Bragazzi, who's so clean, he's saying things about his relationship with his wife that you really shouldn't say publicly. You know what I mean? Like he's saying, like he goes, you know, he goes, the other day we're flying to London, we're leaving Nashville, we're flying to London. And I say to my daughter, what time do you think it is in London? And she's like, okay, well it's 4:12 here, so it's, you know, 11:12 or whatever it is there. And he goes, hon, what do you think? And she goes, 11.

[Kyle Reed]

And he's like, really?

[Donald Miller]

Why would you answer it that way? You know what we're doing? You know the game we're playing. She goes, 11. My guess is 11. And it's like, why won't you answer like an actual normal person? Why do you have to be like that? And then of course they get in a fight for like the rest of their trip to London. Yeah, every one of us has had that moment. But you're not allowed to talk about it publicly. Your wife is annoying you.

[Kyle Reed]

I remember the 12.

[Donald Miller]

We had a 12. My wife has a 12 year old baby sister, Gloria. And Gloria and I. Gloria's sitting next to me on the couch, we're watching this special. And she just goes, I can't believe he's saying this about his wife. I can't believe he's saying this about his wife. She's too young to know that that's actually why he's saying her. Because he's saying something none of the rest of us are willing to say. So reason number two for me is they say what we think.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, for me. So, you know, another point I came up with is, I don't know if you went down or thought about it this way, but there's something about life that's just. It's just hard. Like, life is hard. It's not easy. You know, just. I was talking to a buddy last night and he, his daughter is a freshman in college. She comes back home from Christmas break, for Christmas break, she's going back. And he's like, I'm going to take her out to a nice dinner before she goes back. It's like, good for you. And I could tell, though, that's not where the story's going. And the story's going that they finished dinner, he gives his ticket to the valet to go get his car. And he's standing there for 20 minutes waiting. He's like, where's my car? And finally he's like, he, the guy comes back and he goes, hey, I can't get your car open. Like, your key's not working. It's a brand new car. And so they run off to go check. And he's like. And he cannot get his car open. And he's like telling me, he's like, I'm getting more frustrated and more frustrated and more frustrating. And he's like, the key will not work. And he's breaking the key and he's like, you know, for like an hour. And basically the point was like here I am trying to like do something sweet with my daughter and it turned into me like trying to hold it together that I don't lose it in front of her and this 20 year old valet kid and it's like, just reminded me of like as sweet as you want life to be, there's still hard moments of life and so it makes me think like with comedy, like it kind of pulls you out of moments where it's like the everyday grind of life of like ah, like just it's another day and you get the chance to kind of just go off to a place.

[Donald Miller]

There's something, I see what you're saying. There's something about commiserating on the miserableness of life that is somehow, you know, I don't know, it's comforting.

[Kyle Reed]

It is, right? And one of the things I love that comedians have been doing lately is they make you lock your phone up. You know when you go into a show they have that experience. Yeah. They don't let you bring, you can't have your phone because they don't want you to film it and but it's like it's their bit, it just allows you to escape the noise and kind of like just for a couple hours, just be a human and laugh.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And I don't know about you but for me sometimes I just need that.

[Donald Miller]

There'S something therapeutic about it that commiserating about our, our miseries.

[Bobby Richards]

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[Donald Miller]

Normally I don't have lists of the five or six reasons something works, but I just wanted to one up you today. I wanted you to feel like inferior as we were sitting here because you clearly didn't make a list.

[Kyle Reed]

I mean, I could make you feel inferior and show you my list, but go ahead.

[Donald Miller]

I don't know why. I mean, just show me the list. Just tell the listeners your list. You alluded to this. Number one was they say what we think. Number two is they say what they think. They say what we think. They say it. Well, have you seen the documentary called Comedian with Jerry Seinfeld? I watch historical documentaries a lot, either about business or about history or about World War II or famous figures or whatever. Comedian is the best documentary I've ever seen.

[Kyle Reed]

Wow.

[Donald Miller]

It is about Jerry Seinfeld wrapping up the show, throwing away his material, and starting over. So you watch a comedian, arguably the best. I mean, certainly top five of all time. Right? Arguably the best ever, start over. And it's not a comedy. It's literally watching a guy struggle and work and bomb on stage. He'd go in and he'd get five minutes anytime he could so he could test a joke, and then that joke wouldn't work. So of course, it doesn't go into the. And he works up 60 minutes. By the end of it, he's got 60 minutes of new material that he can actually take on the road. And, I mean, that dude worked his butt off at one point. He actually put the pieces of paper of jokes, like yellow tablet on a street in front of his house so you could physically see. And it was like 40 yards of individual yellow pieces of paper that he had written on to actually come up.

[Kyle Reed]

With this material just to get 60 Minutes.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And then even the timing of it, like, if you watch Theo or Nate Bragatzi is a great example.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

You try to deliver one of his jokes. Just try it. Try. Try to pretend you're him and deliver one of his jokes at dinner. And you can't do it because he has so perfected the timing of when he's gonna drop this line and when he's gonna drop this line and then when he's gonna drop this line. And I actually watched his. His special, his second special, and maybe his first special or his second special in his Saturday Night Live opening monologue. And I watched him give the same monologue, only it was different. It was different angles on the same stories. And then punch in this one line from the previous special, and you could see how his mind was evolving, where it was like, okay, I'm going to give this, but that one was so good, and nobody's probably heard that one, so I'm going to Bring it in. Or what happened was he's delivering it, and he accidentally went into old material because he's so used to going from here to there. You could watch the mind actually work and how he did it. There's something about this sort of crystal clear, having been worked on so many times, that he just knows it inside and out, and he can deliver it perfectly. It's like, we know Scott Hamilton, who's the Olympic skater, working on that routine over and over until it's just completely dialed in is what a comedian has done. And I think the third reason that we like comedians is they are presenting something that has been so freaking polished that you're actually, without knowing it, watching a master of their art deliver it so incredibly well. And, you know, Jeff Foxworthy is an old friend, and the amount of time that he would put into a routine was insane. And when he did Portland, when I lived there, I got to go and we went backstage and met him and Larry the Cable Guy and all that kind of stuff. And then my friends are not hicks. This is Portland, Oregon. They're flaming liberals, right? And they're sitting there and they're rolling. I mean, they're rolling. And they kind of went in, rolling their eyes, going, larry the Cable Guy and Jeff Foxworthy and hick. And this is all Southern humor in Portland, Oregon. And he won them over in five minutes. And it's just the. It's how he has so carefully articulated every little cadence and every beat of this, I think, is one of the reasons that we, like. We would like it in. In a speech, you know, Winston Churchill speech or whatever. It's like, that's dialed in, man. That is dialed in. And I think that's one of the reasons we like them.

[Kyle Reed]

Agreed. I. That was a big revelation for me in the last. You know, over time, as I've started to see, like, they make it look so effortless that it seems like they didn't practice any of it.

[Donald Miller]

Right?

[Kyle Reed]

And then when you come to find out, like, I've heard Rogan talk about this, it's just. He'll spend two to three hours just writing, just writing. Every day, just writing.

[Donald Miller]

I didn't know that.

[Kyle Reed]

Every day, writing, writing.

[Donald Miller]

Joyce makes that point, too. He said he watched. He was sitting at a cafe, and he was taking the day off or taking the morning off, and he watched these guys cross the street with hard hats and lunch pails going to work on this building. And he said, oh, my word, if they have to work at their job every day, why am I Not working at my job every day. And he developed a discipline, which is the number that's the main reason that he is so successful, is he had the discipline. He also sat in writing rooms and filmed 10 years worth of episodes of Seinfeld, which I think the reps get you there too, but he actually has the discipline. Some friends of mine, they like Seth Rogen and Jonah Hill and some of the pot smoking, Pineapple Express sort of guys, they really admire those guys. And I'm like, why do you admire them? Like, well, they're like me, you know, and. And I. I said to them, probably lost the friendship. I don't know. Can't remember who I said it to, but I said, you got to understand, they're not like you at all. They're pretending to be like you, but they're not like you at all. They do not sit around and smoke pot in their mother's basement. These guys work their butts off. They work their butts off and they have incredible discipline and incredible work ethic. And then you see them, the character that they have imagined up with all that hard work, that's what you're seeing. And you think, that's them. It's not them.

[Kyle Reed]

And there's. Yeah, that's the thing. I walk away with just even thinking about this as a whole. It's like there's this mindset that you should just show up. At least for me, show up. And it just should be perfect. And the truth is, the greats, the masters, in this instance, comedians, but also other people we admire is that is not true. That there is probably no one. I would go as far as say, no one who just shows up. They have put in the world.

[Donald Miller]

Not if you want to. Yeah, not if you want to win.

[Kyle Reed]

One of the things, you know, Don, you're talking. It sounds to me, I'm just picking up on this. Comedians have actually, like, shaped a lot of the way that you think about things or have shaped some, you know, your life in, whether it be business or speaking or even relationships. I was just curious as you were talking, like, how has, like, comedians, comedy, like, shaped you as who you are today? As a business leader, a dad, a friend?

[Donald Miller]

Gosh, I don't know. I mean, you know, you watch anybody do something. You know, I walked out of Seinfeld not wanting to be a comedian, but wanting to be a better writer. You could smell the discipline. You could smell it. You could feel it. I mean, he's. I've never been in a room like that. He started out On a scale of one to 10, his opening jokes were 10. We were. I mean, we were laughing, and by the time he. He was finished, about an hour and 10 minutes later, we were at 20.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. I mean, that's how I felt about Bill Burr.

[Donald Miller]

I was at. Painful, uncontrollable, like, stop it. You're hurting me.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

And he was firing them off like fireworks going off. And one was building on the other and calling back to this. And I'm just like, never seen anything like that. And it made me want to go back and write better books. It's like, hey, dude, you need to go back and you need to do better at this. I remember I rewrote blue, like jazz 54 times.

[Kyle Reed]

I didn't know that. Really?

[Donald Miller]

54 times. And there was a guy. There was a seminary professor down south somewhere. I used to know his name, and he was my biggest critic. He just hated me. Absolutely hated me. And, you know, the book was banned from Christian bookstores and, you know, very controversial at the time. I still don't know. I have no idea what the contra. I really don't. I'm not. I have no idea what you guys were. It was just different.

[Kyle Reed]

They didn't like jazz.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, they don't like jazz. And one of the things he said was, this is the easiest form of writing that there is. And finally, I just publicly wrote an open letter to him, and I said, do it. Do it. Like, literally, sit down, seminary professor, and actually try to write one page, much less 250 pages. That is. That feels this easy and free. Just try it. And it shut him down. He never opened his mouth again.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. And, like, what's the number one rule of going to a comedy show is try to heckle the comedian because you're gonna lose. And that's what. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually such an interesting point, Don. I didn't know that, because I think that's ultimately, like, the thing I'm. The bigger overarching thing is what I'm learning here is we love comedy because it's masterful. And what you brought up there is. You know, I remember that book coming out. It just seemed like you just were sitting in a coffee shop just musing.

[Donald Miller]

I have a friend who recently read on the Road by Jack Kerouac and was just commenting about how amazing that he did that freeform, that he just. He never edited any of it. He just took out a piece of paper, and I'm like, do you really believe that? Like, yeah, that's what he said. That's what you know. Yeah. Everybody knows that on the road is. And I'm like, that's part of the act. That's part of the act. Supposedly. It took him, like, eight years to write that book. It's part. You gotta understand, this is part of the act. It's part. The fiction didn't stop there. He created a mythology around himself like Bob Dylan did. Like, half of the stuff isn't even true. Dylan's like, I grew up in a circus, and I learned to play from cowboys. He used to never was in a circus.

[Kyle Reed]

Great story, though.

[Donald Miller]

Great story. Dylan knew, like, oh, you think I'm done when I get off stage? I'm not. I'm always on stage. And Jack Kerouac was like that, too. I mean, you know, I don't know what point that brings up, except for it is a performance. I'll get through the last two things because we've kind of already hit them. They give voice to our dark side. They say the things that we haven't even been able to articulate. We're kind of like, that's kind of true. Right. I don't want to be the kind of person who thinks that. But it's contrary. They definitely give voice to our silly or our stupid side. I mean, the stuff that comedians are talking about is so, so silly. You know, it's just like, come on, you got to give me a break. They give voice to that, and then this is a big one. And it kind of has to go into just that presentation being so dialed in. They optimize for entertainment. And so where I'm optimizing, like, when I do a talk, I've given the storybrand talk 250 times. You know, I actually will give that talk now and realize while I'm giving the talk that I'm daydreaming and will go, oh, you're at this part of the talk now. And my mouth is still moving and the audience is laughing. But I've just given it so many times. I have optimized that talk. I know where every joke goes. I know where. And it's on autopilot. But imagine optimizing a talk only for laughs. Like testing it. That didn't get a laugh. That's out. This did get a laugh. That's great. Oh, when I worded. Oh, when I do this action, it gets a bigger laugh. And optimizing it for only for laughter is fascinating.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

That's why John Aciff was so impressive, because he did it twice. He must have tested the material I don't know how. And he. It was dialed in, man. It was dialed in like it was a laugh a minute without question.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. I actually remember when he did that. Did you go, no, I didn't. But I remember him advertising and just being like, what a bold thing. I mean, that the most people's greatest fear is, like, public speaking and then do comedy.

[Donald Miller]

Do you think comedians are addicted to the audience and laughter? Do you think that's part, like, do you think an element of the need for affirmation and attention is part of what drives them?

[Kyle Reed]

I don't want to make it, like, blanket. This isn't a blanket statement. But a lot of the comedians I hear talk, and a lot of my education is through interviews. Like, Rogan's done with them is. A lot of it is. There's something in their past that they were either trying to get attention for or coming from or making at a hard upbringing. You know, it's kind of like musicians, they talk about this is like, they. To get that success. There's so much drive because they're not successful. And then when they get successful, how do you follow up with, like, there's nothing funny about living in a mansion. Or there's, you know, there's nothing. There's nothing, like, romantic about that. But. But what's funny is, like, struggling in this environment. And so I do think there's a degree of that of, like, it's a high. It's a high of getting.

[Donald Miller]

I think it serves somebody who has that proclivity addiction, even to the audience, it serves their career. It's one of the. You know, I even said to a publisher recently, we were talking about publishing strategy and who you should publish and who you shouldn't, which books you should run with, which books you don't. We talked about the benefit of actually having one of your authors have a narcissistic personality disorder. It's like, they're going to sell a lot more books because they're going to be out there on stages. They're going to be saying yes to every podcast where somebody who doesn't have that personality is going to be like, I think I just want to be home. Like, I miss my family because the addiction isn't driving them to leave home. You know, and it's fascinating to me, some of the public speakers who talk so much about family and how important it is, and I'm like, you spoke 250 times last year, and you always talk about your family. And one of the reasons that I think you're talking about your family is one, you feel guilty because you don't actually see them and you're not invested in their lives at all. Because you have an addiction, you have a problem, you have to be in front of an audience. And two, you're covering your tracks. If I get up here and talk about how much I love my family, you won't realize that they don't even know who I am. And that's not to throw all comedians under a bus, but I'm just saying there is a need. I'm amazed. I was looking at some of these highest GROSSING Comedians of 2024.

[Kyle Reed]

Nate Bragazzi, how much did he make?

[Donald Miller]

80 million.

[Kyle Reed]

That is mind boggling.

[Donald Miller]

1,098,000 tickets sold, right? Dave Chappelle, 44 million. But Nate did 163 shows. Now, I happen to believe Nate is actually an exceptional dad. He travels with his family.

[Kyle Reed]

She always introduces him.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, he optimizes for family. Also where Nate is at right now, you got one, you got a shot, buddy.

[Kyle Reed]

100%.

[Donald Miller]

And you got to do it right now. So please don't say but Dave Chappelle, been around the block, man. He's been doing this for 25 years. 44.2 million on 30 shows.

[Kyle Reed]

30 shows.

[Donald Miller]

30 shows. Jerry Seinfeld, 43.7 million. 82 shows, by the way. He gets half a million per show is what I understood. What he does is he, he gets a private jet, they fly him there. That's the other thing that. Nate's in private jet territory now, so he's getting home. Yeah, that changes everything for a comedian. But what I understood back in the day, this is 10 years ago, you pay Jerry Seinfeld half a million, he has a specific order that he wants. He brings a few friends or family members with him, and he does two shows. So he flies out, does two shows, he's back by probably midnight, you know, back in New York. If he's doing any sort of east coast thing and he's waking up in his, in his. Putting on his slippers the next morning, having spent time with a good friend, eating great food, and do two hours worth of comedy, he's a million dollars richer. This is Gabriel Iglesias.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

111 shows, 40.6 million.

[Kyle Reed]

That's very impressive.

[Donald Miller]

And then I've actually never heard of Matt Rife. Have you heard of Matt Rife?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, he's a.

[Donald Miller]

What's his stick?

[Kyle Reed]

So Matt Rife is, does a ton of crowd work. He's very funny. He's younger, big online, big on TikTok, big on YouTube. He's. I would say he's been doing it a while, but he's really blown up. I'd say in the last three to.

[Donald Miller]

Four years, 35.4 million on 125 shows.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, he's crushing.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

He's young and single, though. He can travel.

[Donald Miller]

I mean, the profit on that thing. Well, I was going to say just some spot.

[Kyle Reed]

The best thing in the world if you want to start a business, is become a funny comedian, because the overhead is incredible. Yeah. You know, the biggest thing I also would walk away from just this conversation and this research on this is comedians have the ability to connect with humans. And when you do that, well, you can move people to do something. And so one of the things that I thought was interesting as I was listening to some different things, is comedians can say, hey, I'm coming through your town on a Tuesday night at 8pm yeah. And I'm gonna ask you to do the hardest thing. And that's, you know, put some pants on, get off the couch and drive down here. And you'll do it, but you won't do that for every comedian. You'll do it for the comedians that have invested the time in building community with you. So that's why you like some of these biggest pod or the biggest comedians.

[Donald Miller]

Biggest comedian of last year I'd never heard of.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And it's got some sort of community.

[Kyle Reed]

Because they've built a community. And I think you look at some of the people who, you know, are maybe on different shows or different sitcoms or SNR or whatever, I don't think they could sell an arena out. But the ones who do are the ones who have put in the work as far as building a podcast out, going on a ton of podcasts, putting in the community effort. And so then when they ask you to come hang out, you feel like it'd be like a buddy who you haven't seen. You know, you have those friends from, like, college or your mid-20s who used to have so much fun laughing and hanging. It's like, let's get together again. And when they come through town and they ask me to go here, I'm gonna show up and I'm gonna tell my wife, my kids, like, hey, you know, I'm going out tonight to hang out with my buddy I haven't seen in 10 years. It feels like that. I think comedians have an amazing ability to do that only if they build that community.

[Donald Miller]

And we could go on a long time about different aspects of comedy. But I'm curious, listeners, who are your favorite comedians right now? Why do you think comedy works? Why do you think comedians exist? It's definitely kind of a wonderful mystery that exists out in the world. Leave your thoughts in the comments. Kyle, Great to talk to you today.

[Kyle Reed]

You too, Don.

[Bobby Richards]

Thanks for listening to the why that Works podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customized tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.