#118 What Happened When Catherine Licari Took Control of Her Paid Ads

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Win With Paid Ads – Episode #118

Title: What Happened When Catherine Licari Took Control of Her Paid Ads
Host: Ashley Brock
Guest: Catherine Licari (The Small Business Planner)
Date: May 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this impactful episode, host Ashley Brock sits down with entrepreneur and client Catherine Licari, founder of The Small Business Planner, to dive deep into Catherine’s journey from magazine assistant to multi-six-figure business owner. Focusing primarily on the transformative power of taking ownership of paid advertising, the conversation unpacks business pivots, mindset shifts, learning to “own your future,” and how gaining control over paid ads changed both Catherine’s business and personal life.

Broadcasting live from Palm Springs at the Ads Mastery Mastermind, this episode is filled with tactical takeaways for product-based entrepreneurs, actionable advertising strategies, and inspiring reflections on resilience, risk-taking, and scaling a business through intentional ad mastery.

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Catherine’s Entrepreneurial Journey

Early Career and Entrepreneurial Spark

• Catherine’s career began in the magazine world (“Devil Wears Prada, but with flies”), quickly realizing that personal growth and financial viability would require something more entrepreneurial.
  • “I was making $28,500 at a magazine. My first job out of school was actually unpaid, but it was for the editor…” – Catherine [03:00]
• Emphasizes the value of paying your dues, stacking goals (like getting her master’s for insurance while launching a business), and the fire that pushes people from “employee” to “leader.”
  • “When you have that fire, you're actually kind of unemployable…” – Catherine [03:31]
• Launched her first company—a fashion e-commerce business for emerging luxury brands—at age 25 in NYC.
  • Key insight: Early advantage came from being able to build a website before platforms like Shopify made it accessible to all.

Realization and Pivot

• As the business grew, Catherine recognized a personal “skills gap,” particularly around finance, prompting her to get an MBA at Columbia.
  • “Entrepreneurial grit...can take you far. But then you come to an inflection point where you’re like, I don’t have the skills.” – Catherine [07:01]
• Discovered the unprofitability in much of the competition and the illusion kept alive by access to capital, not sustainable business models.
  • “Most fashion and retail businesses are not profitable…they function just because they keep borrowing money to operate.” – Catherine [07:31]

The Small Business Planner’s Origin Story

• Pivoted from fashion to empowering small business owners with the knowledge and tools to intentionally plan for profit (“It should not be a gamble”).
• Noted the dangerous ease of starting an LLC with no qualifications or education (“as dangerous as driving without lessons”).
  • “In this country...what do you have to do to qualify to open an LLC? ...Nothing.” – [09:10]

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Taking Control of Paid Ads

From Agency Dependence to DIY Ad Mastery

• Catherine used agencies for paid ads but felt “physically sick” from the lack of control over her own results.
• “I was pacing in my living room, waiting for my weekly call, watching my ROAS go down…this is my livelihood in someone else’s hands…Unbearable.” – Catherine [10:07–10:39]
• The breakthrough: Realizing the “highest leverage” for her business future was learning how to run her own ads.
  • “The highest leverage thing I can do is learn how to run these ads myself… If I had never started running ads, I would not have a business. We’ve helped over 7,000 people in the last two years because of ads.” – Catherine [10:56–12:50]
• Chose Ashley’s program for its integrity, high-touch support, and practical, actionable depth.
  • “It wasn’t just that you could teach me how to run my ads. It was the level of passion and integrity and commitment…” – Catherine [11:38]

Results: 2024’s Explosive Growth

• 2024: “We printed money.”
  • Catherine was going through intense personal challenges (IVF), but business success was “$44 customer acquisition on a $180 product—rinse and repeat.” [15:49–16:04]
  • Later realized she could have scaled even more:
    • “My ROAS was super high—leaving value on the table. I should have been spending more.” – [16:07–16:20]
• Major product and messaging pivot: Focused on “small business owners” rather than “creative entrepreneurs”—reflecting language customers actually used.
  • “When you say ‘sneaker,’ but 90% say ‘tennis shoes,’ 90% won’t resonate…” – Ashley [20:20]

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Key Lessons, Strategies, and Tactical Takeaways

1. Understanding and Using Data

• Catherine learned not just to track results, but to interpret and act on ad data herself.
• She explains that managing return on ad spend (ROAS) is crucial for product businesses: warehousing, fulfillment, and baked-in shipping costs matter.
  • “You have to clear a certain minimum return on ad spend… And for my product, I don’t charge for shipping. I built it into the price.” – Catherine [24:51–25:03]

Notable Quote and Tip:

“For all my product-based business owners…bake in your shipping cost. It is not your customer's responsibility to think about what it costs to get that to their front door.” – Catherine [25:19]

Tactical How-To:

• Negotiate flat-rate expedited shipping (ex: FedEx One Rate 2-Day) for predictability and consistency in pricing. [25:44]

2. Benefits of Owner-Led Ad Management

• More control = more confidence and less anxiety.
• Access to weekly (or more frequent) coaching calls, community, and even AI support (“Rainmaker AI”) inside Ashley's program replaced agency bottlenecks.
  • “It’s a 24/7 support structure...When you value owning your future, this is the skill set you must have.” – Catherine [32:28]
• Catherine achieved her first six-figure month specifically because she could make prompt, data-driven decisions.
  • “How does it feel to have your first six-figure month and know you can have a next move? ‘I think it makes me feel like a business owner...you need to be in a seat of ownership and not be owned by your business.’ ” – Ashley & Catherine [34:37–34:50]

3. Multiple Platforms Matter

• Success comes not just from one ad or one platform—Catherine highlights the importance of a true advertising ecosystem.
  • “Even if my Meta performance is not as great...why are we still growing? Because people are seeing it on Instagram, then Googling. My best clients actually are coming from Google and YouTube.” [39:02]
• Retargeting is essential for catching “stragglers” and ensuring high conversion.
  • “The way we teach retargeting allows you to have that feeling…most of our ads actually convert to cold traffic—every day.” – [40:41–41:04]

4. Relentless Messaging and Customer Language

• Pivot your messaging and product names to match what people actually call themselves and what truly resonates.
  • “People were saying, ‘I’m not a creative entrepreneur, I’m just a small business owner.’ …The TAM is the small business owner—who’s actually profitable and powers our economy.” – Catherine [18:58]
• Keep repeating your core ideas—most people are just beginning to notice.
  • “You have to keep repeating yourself. You feel loud and obnoxious, but you’re just getting started.” – [43:10]

5. Mindset → Ownership, Uncertainty, and Scaling

• Developing the ability to “hold uncertainty” is essential when scaling through ads, especially for product-based businesses managing inventory and planning promotions.
  • “That’s a requirement if you’re serious about scaling …the skills to evaluate the facts day to day.” – [37:02]
• "Your success gap is a skill gap." This episode reinforces that learning advertising is a practical, ownable skill, not a mysterious art.
• The distinction between delegating and outsourcing: As a business owner, learn the fundamentals before you hand them off—or have at least one team member master them.

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Most Memorable and Notable Quotes

• “When you have that fire, you’re actually kind of unemployable…because you’re a leader.” – Catherine [03:31]
• “We printed money in 2024…I was going through IVF, while the Shopify cha-ching rang off all day…off the back of one ad.” – Catherine [15:28–15:53]
• “I just saw all these different ads where we could have been spending more…You just were enlightened.” – Ashley, summarizing Catherine’s transformation [29:06]
• "You or someone on your team must have the skill." – Catherine [33:53]
• "Your success gap is a skill gap, 100%." – Catherine [33:39]
• "If your ads system is profitable, the limit does not exist." – Catherine [35:49]
• “For me, I would not have a business if not for paid ads. That’s all I need to know.” – Catherine [34:50]
• “The business made it happen. And the business can make so much happen for other people…You can find yourself in a story you never expected to be reading.” – Catherine, on surrogacy & impact [46:25]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Catherine’s Early Career & Entrepreneurial Fire: [01:05–04:40]
• MBA, Pivot Point & Learning Finance: [06:17–07:31]
• What’s Dangerous About Business Ignorance: [08:52–09:20]
• From Agency to Taking Control of Ads: [10:06–12:50]
• 2024: The Year Everything Worked: [14:50–16:04]
• Shifting Product & Messaging: [17:13–21:10]
• Shipping, Pricing, and Conversion Tips: [25:03–28:03]
• Program Experience & Coaching Impact: [28:29–32:28]
• Multi-Channel Paid Ads Strategy: [39:00–41:08]
• Takeaways for Entrepreneurs: [38:52–41:08]
• Mindset, Scaling, and Taking Ownership: [34:50–38:52]
• Paid Ads & Life Impact (Surrogacy Story): [44:03–46:26]

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Closing Reflections

• Paid ads, when managed by the business owner, don’t just drive sales—they provide the confidence, freedom, and resources to weather personal and professional storms.
• Success comes from strategic pivots, relentless self-education, owning your numbers, and taking the driver’s seat on advertising.
• “You can find yourself in a life story you never expected…when you have a business that is a profitable system…it gives you the capacity to answer life’s challenges.” – Catherine [46:46]
• The episode concludes with gratitude, a reminder to embrace discomfort for growth, and an open invitation to check out The Small Business Planner and join the paid ads mastery journey.

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Links mentioned:

• [The Small Business Planner] (Linked in show notes)
• [Catherine’s Instagram] (Linked in show notes)

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For entrepreneurs ready to “own their future,” Catherine’s journey is a powerful testament to learning the skill of paid ads and its ability to change the trajectory of both business and life.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Win with Paid Ads podcast for small business owners, entrepreneurs and really anyone who has anything you want more people to find. Whether you're starting from ground zero or scaling an eight figure business, you are exactly who this podcast was created for. Because you being the best kept secret helps no one. Right? That's why in every episode I'll show you how you can use paid ads to hit your goals 10 times sooner. It's time you finally learn how to win with paid ads. You or someone on your team can do this. I'll show you how to score and

[B]

be known by more. Let's get started.

[A]

Today you're going to get to meet a friend and client of mine. Her name is Katherine Licari. She owns the Small Business Planner.

[B]

Katherine.

[A]

We're here in Palm Springs, California at the Ads Mastery Mastermind event. And I'm sitting there with my team and I was like, what is one of our product based businesses that is just killing it and just does the work, has been relentless and has just grown something so substantial that can talk about our story and, and we were like, Katherine, duh. So here we are. I'm so excited to welcome you. So tell everybody.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

You are. And about your business, how you got started. Like, I want to hear the journey.

[B]

Thank you so much for having me. First of all, this is truly an honor. And I can't believe we're in Palm Springs.

[A]

Like, what?

[B]

This is a pinch me moment for me. So just so you know that it's true. Gosh, my story feels like it's a long, winding road, but I. My career started in magazines. I worked so very much like Devil Wears. But the fly is on. On your head.

[A]

The fly is. Keep this in the episode. Yeah, the fly was on her head. Devil Wears Prada. But there's flies.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Very much Devil Wears Prada. And I saw I was the assistant to multiple editors in chief. It's like literally from the movie. And what I learned, what I learned through those early magazine jobs were actually how organizations worked and how creative structures and organizations were run. And it was just an interesting first exposure as a kid out of college with a job. But what I also learned really quickly was that I was never going to be able to afford to stay working in magazines because the pay, it was just not, you know, crazy. So I said, okay, this is not going to be my long term plan.

[A]

But what I love is that you were willing to like get your foot

[B]

in the door somewhere, because that's what I did.

[A]

I was like, I'm not making much out of college either. I think I was right at around $30,000. Yeah, yeah. So it's like, this is not forever. But I was like, in my brain, I was like, this is how you start. You work hard, you start somewhere.

[B]

That's absolutely it. And I think that's the mindset that entrepreneurs need to have. And like, typically do have. Like, I see everything as a challenge and something that's valuable. Going to teach me something. And so I was learning every single day and worked with great people and then I went to work for a designer and I, you know, started to see if I want to stay in this industry, I'm going to have to do something exceptional. That's what I heard in my head as like a 23 year old kid. I was in New York. So I still live, I live in New York City. And yes, I was making $28,500 at a magazine. My first magazine job out of school was actually just unpaid, but it was for the editor. I needed to get a professor to like write a letter to say, yes, this will continue her education. She can do an unpaid internship.

[A]

I did that too at the news station. I was over. There you go. Yeah, I was the reporter. I'm like over here doing all the work but learning everything. I was like, all. And I drove an hour to and from. Oh, yeah, yeah. Microwave meals. I was like, I will do whatever it is to get my foot in the door. That says something about you too.

[B]

It does. And when you have that fire, I think that's why I'm so grateful that entrepreneurship exists. Because when you have that type of fire, you're actually kind of unemployable, like really soon, really early in your career because you're like, I'm a leader. I think, what do you mean? I have to work 25 years before I can help make real decisions. I see these things, you know.

[A]

Yeah, that's awesome.

[B]

And So I was 25 years old when I started my first company. And it was, it was a fashion e commerce company for emerging luxury designers. And so this is 2014. And so E Comm today it's so different. Like you can start a business on Shopify in five minutes and be shipping product by Friday. But 12 years ago, you could not. It was very complicated to have a website. And that was talk about competitive advantage. Like my ability to put together a website and to source young brands to sell through us, that was the competitive advantage. And so that business grew pretty quickly and it was sort of high Visibility, because I had these magazine jobs, I had friends in press, and so they were covering my baby business, and.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yes. So, like, it was like a connection thing. It was a connection thing. It was a connection thing. And I applied to do my first master's at Parsons, which is like the big design school in New York City, mainly to get health insurance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that I could start a business and have. This is a good, practical thing, I think, for people to think about, which is.

[A]

Hit me in the head.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, this flies. Days are numbered. A helpful, practical thing when you're starting a business is to stack another goal at the same time. What do you mean? So I wanted to leave my job, and I needed a reason to leave my job and sort of like a safety net. And that was this first master's program. And I said, I'm going to start my business and start this program at Parsons, and if my business fails in the next two years, at least by the end of the next two years, I will have gotten my first master's. I was not planning on the second one at the time, but I was like, I will have gotten this degree in two years, and if my business fails, at least I got the degree. And so, yeah, I love risk, and I love, like, layering on the pressure. And both worked. And I was running this business, and I looked up. I had five women working with me full time. I'm in my mid-20s, five women working with me full Time. An office on 7th Avenue. Like a real. Like a. You know, I had, like, a lease. And I looked up from my desk, and I said, I do not have the skills to take these women beyond where we are. I was. I was just like, I don't. I knew I didn't have the financial skills to move us forward.

[A]

So this was your first, like. Because as you talk about the fall. The small business planner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What you do now, this was like your. You are performing up to, like, your capacity.

[B]

Completely. Completely. And I was like, I'm also able to get people to want to do. To work on my business with me. So I have a responsibility to level up my skills to be able to lead others. If I'm running payroll, I better know more about the money than I do today.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And one of the women working with me was an intern from Harvard Business School. And I was like, I'm not actually sure how to do this. Yeah, I got you all here, and we're selling clothes all over the world. But, like, I don't know what to do next. And that planted the seed. Then I got my second master's, which was an MBA from Columbia Business School because I wanted to go and get the hard finance skills to bring back.

[A]

Did you learn a lot from there?

[B]

I learned so much. I got the most out of that experience.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And for some people, they just go to like check the box to get the promotion in their corporate job. But I was like, this is life and death, y'. All. Like, I don't know what to do next. I did not know. And entrepreneurial grit and motivation and natural, like raw horsepower can take you really far. But then you will come to an inflection point where you're like, I don't have the skills.

[A]

So what happened? Well, you get to this place, you're in your 20s.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You have five people working for you. You're realizing you don't know some things. So then what happens?

[B]

I go to Columbia Business School and I start. My mind just gets blown open about all the other types of businesses out there. I suddenly realize that most fashion and retail businesses are not profitable. So the day I discovered all my competitors were not profitable was the day I became really disinterested in building that business. And what I mean by this is businesses can continue to operate not because they're generating profits, but because they have access to capital. So a lot of businesses with poor business models in the product based business space function just because they can keep borrowing money to operate.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

That's the reality.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And so I was like, I think there's a better way. And so I've spent the last 10 plus years building fashion and retail businesses and brands inside, which are the hardest ones to build. They have the most irrational economics. And all this came together to just really push me to. I fell absolutely in love with the idea of how can I equip people with the financial knowledge they need to be successful and to plan so that they could plan their profit with intention. Because it should not be like a gamble. It feels like, you know, I sometimes compare it to, in the US about 4 million people get a new driver's license each year. What do you have to do to get a driver's license?

[A]

Take a test.

[B]

You have to take a test. You have to take a class, you have to take a written test, you have to take a driving test. You can fail the driving test. They can be like, we don't think you're ready for the road. But in this country, and now this is a good thing because opportunity is there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What do you have to do to qualify to open an llc.

[A]

I mean, nothing.

[B]

Literally nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so it's just as dangerous as driving on the road without the pre

[A]

qualifications, because you're putting your life and your business and your money and everything on the line.

[B]

Everything on the line. And people don't realize, like, the gravity of what you're signing up for. You get a loan from the bank. Like, nobody's reading the fine print that says your house is the collateral. You know, like, every asset you own, every asset your business owns, your other businesses own. And people are like, it's all gonna be fine. It might not be fine. Okay. It might not be fine.

[A]

So we gotta plan this.

[B]

We gotta plan this.

[A]

Okay, so this is where the small business planner.

[B]

Small business planner comes in.

[A]

Okay, so let's talk about what. Well, actually, before we talk about what the small business planner is, how did we meet?

[B]

Katherine, we met because I was. I am a fan of sales girls.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was doing a challenge. And I've been working on my sales skills for a long time because I've been running ads the entire time that I've had my business. But I wasn't running the ads.

[A]

Yeah. Until now.

[B]

Until now. Now I'm running the ads every day. But I had worked with a couple of different agencies of different, like, size and scale. And I found myself, like, really pacing in my living room, like, waiting for my weekly call. Ooh. Watching my roas go down, Being like, this is my life. Like, this is my livelihood, and it's

[A]

in somebody else's hands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think that's the hard part is, like, you, especially as someone who has grown so many things, you know, the money and, you know, the return matters. And so to feel like the return that you were getting was out of your hands, I bet. Was, like, unnerving.

[B]

It was unbearable. Like, I was getting physically sick. I'm like. I think so. I always try to make complicated problems simple. Like, distill it to what's the core of the matter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I was trying all the things, and at the end of the day, I was like, the highest leverage thing I can do is learn how to run these ads myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think about them morning, noon, and night, and I was totally, like, shackled in terms of my ability to do something about it.

[A]

So you're in this. So. So you already had this priming before you found me, which is, I think, is an advantage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You already had this for a solution.

[B]

You were looking for a solution, and

[A]

so you went to the sales girls.

[B]

Yes. I did the challenge. I've done their challenges a few times and I have one of their programs and it's been really helpful. And you guest taught one day and I was like, okay, well, I'm going with her. Like, I'm literally getting in the car. I was like, she is it. And it wasn't just that you could teach me how to run my ads.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was the level of passion and integrity and commitment that you bring to what you do. I was like, that's my girl. Like, through the zoom with everybody else.

[A]

I know.

[B]

It's just, like, fantastic.

[A]

I think what's cool is even virtually even through social media, you and I both, we have people and they're like, those are the people that connect with us.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, those are the people that know. Like, that's your people. And so I think that, I think that sometimes you just know. So it sounds like when you saw from that guest speaking thing, you just like, what happened next?

[B]

I immediately signed up. Like, I, I, I don't know. I DM'd you and I got to someone on your team and I just immediately signed up. You had a challenge coming up, but I was like, I don't have time to waste.

[A]

You're like, I'm ready.

[B]

I don't need to be sold.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I was already shopping. Like, I had a very high intent. I'm the Google Ads targeting person I love. I was looking for a solution. And I try to abstract problems and say, like, what is the goal? Yeah, my goal was how do I move into the driver's seat of building this business? Like, if I had never started running ads, I would not have a business. We've helped over 7,000 people in the last two years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because of ads.

[A]

That's so good. I didn't realize it was 7,000 people. I'm so proud of you. So how did you feel when you were with the agency? I don't want to talk negatively, but what were the.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there's nothing negative.

[A]

What were the facts?

[B]

There's nothing negative to say. I mean, I think you can think about ads as a utility or you can think about ads as one of the most powerful assets that you can install in your own business. And so if you think about ads as just like a, you know, people think about bookkeeping as a compliance cost.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you think about ads, it's like, ugh, I gotta run some ads. It's like, well, then you're never going to be as engaged and excited about it.

[A]

Correct. But it's why it matters. That's one of the things we talked about today is. Yes. Whether it's your team, whether it is your clients, you can't just tell them what to do. You have to tell them why it matters. So the example I gave today, which will tie back to this, is like the slides on the screen today for today's presentation, I was like, we could just put round one on the screen. I was like, or we could put the questions. And I was like, hey, would you mind just putting the questions on the screen? And the reason why is because there'll be a moment where someone's like, what were the questions? Instead of having to ask the team and do a manual process, it'll just be there. I was like, every extra detail of thought that you can think ahead for them really matters. So it's like, what to do, why it matters.

[B]

Well, you're teeing up these conversations that can change people's lives. That's why it matters. And so you need to help people who are in a new place, excited, with other people around them, like, stay focused on the goal. The goal is let's have these conversations that open up amazing new realizations and help things click. Because we're all each other's ideal clients in this room, more or less. And there's nothing more powerful than that. So you.

[A]

Okay, so this is incredible. So you already sold on ads. It sounds like it was like an instant connection for you that you're like, okay, the values aligned, the. This matters. So you jump into the program. I know we had a little bit of an up and down at the beginning.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So let's talk about that.

[B]

Totally. So 2024, I didn't know how good I had it. And this is a really important business lesson.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People think that growth is always going to be continuous, and it's not. It is that graph that's like, yes,

[A]

it's a heartbeat, Mon.

[B]

Going up over time. But years are actually tiny little increments of time. And so they're subject to a lot more variability than we want to believe. And so 2024, my. We just. This is like, so gross. We printed money in 2024.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

We printed money in 2024. I was also going through IVF every single month of 2024. So. So I had, like, the most challenging health and personal life. Personal. Yeah, personal life. Year of my life. While the Shopify Ding, like Cha Ching just went off all day long.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

All day long. Off the back of one ad. One ad.

[A]

I know.

[B]

$44. Consistent like clockwork. Rinse and repeat. $44. Customer conversion, customer acquisition cost on $180 product.

[A]

I bet you wish that you spent more.

[B]

Yeah. And I didn't even have the lens to. To understand that. Like, I knew that if your. Your roas was super high that you were leaving value on the table. Right. Because you need to spend more. Because it shouldn't be 27x all the time. Like, yeah, it can be.

[A]

It can. It can be. But that. That is my trigger is there's so often I see people's accounts, and I'm like. I'm like, hey, welcome to the program. Like, why are you spending more? And they're like, right. I don't know. No one's asked me that. I'm like, because that's my immediate thing. I'm like, you're putting one in. You're getting five out. Could we put a thousand in and get 5,000 out or a million in and get 5 million? So you had this moment where you're like, dang, I didn't realize how good it could be for me.

[B]

Yeah. I just didn't have anything to compare it to. What I was comparing it to was the Small Business Planner came out after two years of running ads to a different offer, which was way too complicated and not aligned with what people actually want or need.

[A]

I did that. I mean, I had something that I sold, and people didn't want it.

[B]

Yeah. Like, going from like, you had marketing matters.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And now you're here, and it's so clear, and you're helping so many lives, which is what it means to be successful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I had the cash flow method for creative entrepreneurs that's way too long. And people are like, I'm not a creative entrepreneur. I'm like, you own a flower shop. Of course you are. And they're like, no, no. For anyone listening to this, without video, I'm doing dramatic air quotes. People say, I'm not a creative entrepreneur. I'm air quotes. Just a small bit.

[A]

Sorry. A fly literally just got right on my. On my nose.

[B]

I was just like, get off her.

[A]

Get off her.

[B]

Our queen.

[A]

For everybody listening, we have to say this before she. Hold. Don't forget your thought. But there was. We hosted this event, and there was an absolute, like, dust, hurricane, tornado situation. So somehow, like, if the flies, like, got flown in. And so it's just like real life right now. Life has rised so hard today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Let's just be real. So anyway, that's what's happening. But, Katherine, let's fly right into the next thing. You were saying.

[B]

What was I saying?

[A]

Oh, gosh.

[B]

I was saying that. I think I was talking about our return on. Oh, yes. I was trying to. I was leading with the finance. Yeah. I was saying the solution to your cash flow strategy.

[A]

Cash flow creative for entrepreneurs.

[B]

The cash flow method for creative entrepreneurs. And people were like, oh, yes. People said, I'm not a creative entrepreneur. This isn't for me. And I'd be like, you're a florist. You own a flower shop. Of course you're a creative entrepreneur. And they would say, big air quotes. I am just a small business owner. And I was like, huh? Because again, I'm coming from the fashion world and like, people raising $25 million to start a handbag line.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People who identify with the entrepreneur label,

[A]

the founder label, versus small business.

[B]

Small business. You want to know that the TAM Target addressable market.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's the small business owner.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who's actually powering our economy. Who actually has a profitable business, not the founder entrepreneur. Who has the social, political, whatever. Capital to access cash for an unprofitable business model.

[A]

That's right. And so that's gotta be one of the reasons that you leaned into creating the company that you did, going from that and changing it to the small business planner.

[B]

Yes. I also realized that if I only focused on the finance, that people were still gonna have major blind spots like trademarks, insurance. The key contacts you need, the five key contacts you need, everybody, are an accountant, a bookkeeper, a lawyer, a small business banker, who you can say, I'm having a cash flow emergency. Can you help me with some financing? Or do you have any 0% interest business credit cards.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and then the final one is an insurance broker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Who's incentivized to follow up with you all the time to say, hey, your cyber insurance policy is going to expire next month. Do you want to renew? I've pulled three quotes for you. And you'll be like, I was not thinking about my cyber insurance.

[A]

Of course you were.

[B]

But in this day and age, you

[A]

need to have it. That's right.

[B]

But so when you incentivize other people to bring you the things you already need, you protect yourself and you build this structure around yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Set you up for success.

[A]

So I think one of the things people do is. It's like that tennis shoe sneaker example I give.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's like if you say sneaker, but 90% of people say tennis shoes, it's like the 90% won't resonate with the 10% of like how you've named it completely. So I think it's very self aware of you because one of the things we worked on today is all messaging like that. I'm so obsessed with the words that we say because I truly believe it's like all we have to differentiate ourselves. And so you being willing to go from what you had to shift like, was probably a big change. But you're like, okay, they need to have a plan. I want to put these extra things. Like, for everybody listening, Katherine's. Here you are. For everybody listening, Katherine's business, the small business planner is literally a physical product. It is a book.

[B]

It's a binder.

[A]

It's a binder. I think that's the best way to say it's a binder and it has all these different sections of what you need to ultimately be successful. And it's rooted, I feel like in the core. Core of the financial backing behind the business.

[B]

It is, but it's sort of hidden.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So people, people would see that I was selling like a 12 month budget training for a small business and they'd be like, I don't want to look at that topic. I'm scared, embarrassed, ashamed. It's causing friction with my spouse. I don't want to look at the numbers. I'm just gonna sell more. I'm just gonna hustle harder. And it's like, no, no, it. More sales will not solve your cash flow problem if you do not have a financial structure in place and you don't know what you don't know. Right. And it's okay. It's totally okay. No one teaches you, right? When you opened your llc, did you have to take a test? Did you have to study for a test? Did you do road tests? No. And again, it's great that you can just start a business because opportunity is available and we want that to stay that way. But it is just as dangerous as driving a car down the freeway without the prep to be qualified.

[A]

So you created a business.

[B]

I created the prep to become qualified to run a small business profit.

[A]

So when you hear like Catherine talking about her ads and her return on ad spend, it was from selling this product that you sell on Shopify.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So when we met, you had worked with an agency and I think very

[B]

quickly you were a couple agencies.

[A]

A couple agencies, yeah. So I think. And let me just guess, if you're comfortable sharing, I bet you paid anywhere from like 2000 up to like $8000 a month. Is that like the range?

[B]

Yeah, it was. The first agency was really small and they were very generous with me in the beginning because they watched me running ads that were losing money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To my first thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they were really instrumental in helping me get started.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then I sort of was like, okay, well, we've sold $750,000 in the first year of this business product. I think I might need a bigger agency.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To put me on the other platforms. And they agreed. And. And I switched and I went to an agency that I had worked with before who really specialized in fashion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And my logic was, well, there's so much competition in fashion. It's really hard to be a pro. What do I know? Right? I know that it's hard to be a profitable fashion brand. I know these guys are the best for. For product based fashion companies.

[A]

Like, oh, they can totally do this.

[B]

I'm like, they're gonna nail this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because there's product, there's product market fit. Like it's already selling. They're gonna crush it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, they had the best intent. But we know the meta ads algorithm changed in 2025.

[A]

Yeah. Y', all, everything about it's got a supply.

[B]

So it's okay. We're gonna be drenched in abundance. And look, we are. Are okay.

[A]

Drench.

[B]

There's no other way.

[A]

There is no other way.

[B]

That tree gave up on its light. That tree is probably 100 years old. It was like, today's my day. Yeah, today's my day. It's too much power on this property.

[A]

I'm gonna just bust.

[B]

Just went down anyway. That agency. You know, the meta ads algorithm changed in 2025. We know this. And I felt like, well, what is the solution? And they were trying stuff. But I was like, I have ideas. I can read this data. I wasn't an ads expert. I was very nervous looking at ads manager. But what I've always been able to do is take complicated things and sort of boil them down to the basics.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And I'm like, this seems like it's not going well. Okay. It's not going well. And I didn't understand enough to. So now you know. And when you have a product based business, you have to clear a certain minimum return on ad spend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You do. To factor in your individual product unit cost, factor in your warehousing, factor in your fulfillment costs, which can be separate from your warehousing costs. I don't charge for shipping.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I built it into the price. Because for all my product based business owners, when you charge for shipping in the checkout, you are putting so much friction unnecessarily in that final moment.

[A]

That's so good, Katherine.

[B]

Like, why are people still doing this in 2026? Guys, you bake in your shipping cost to the full loaded cogs number for your product. It is not your customer's responsibility to think about what it costs to get that to their front door. Give me a break. And the way you can do this safely and reliably is by doing something like, sorry, this is so nation specific.

[A]

No, I love it.

[B]

But you need to reach out to FedEx and say, now I'm always going to put the luxury fashion marketing principles on anything and everything I do, including financial education apparently. But you need to reach out to FedEx and say, Hey, I would like a FedEx one. I would like a FedEx one rate two day rate card with you so that you can ship your product anywhere in the country in two days for a flat rate. So I could ship a small business planner to Palm Springs. Currently it's around $11.63 from New York. I could ship it to Colorado, I could ship it to Florida, to Texas. It's all gonna be the same price. That's nice. I can plan reliably.

[A]

That's such a good tip. So for everybody listening, with a product based business, there's so many little things like that that can make such a big difference at the final moment. One of the things that we talked about in our VIP day because Kathryn ended up getting our initial program, then upgraded to the mastermind, then upgraded to a group VIP day. And one of the things that we talked about in the group VIP day was the goal of the checkout is to make it as efficient and speedily done as possible.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so anything that you can do to remove friction and that, you know, 10 seconds of a decision of do I do shipping? Because it's even more than you thought. It's just. It's not necessary.

[B]

Yeah, it's not. And like you want to. Price is so important to people subconsciously in the sense that I wanted to keep our price under $200 even if they had sales tax. So we were 180. It's now 197.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But even when you added sales tax, it was never over $200 for anyone. So it's much easier to say, I know I have a problem. I know I don't know this information. This thing's under $200 let's go. When it's variable, you know, and the other practical thing for business owners to think about is with a product based business, you want to limit your variable costs as much as possible. True. You know, it's like so true. Consistency. You do not want variability in your pricing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So if you can streamline your shipping that way. And you may be paying a little more on some of the shipments, but you'll be paying a lot less on the ones that are really far away from you. And don't underestimate the value of people getting something so quickly.

[A]

Oh, well, it's.

[B]

We're trained to do it anyway. But my customers are often like really stressed when they find us.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then two days later, I'm on their front door and they're having like a beautiful unboxing experience.

[A]

It's so good. It's Hormozi talks about the time to value. I'm like, how quickly can we get that? Because the moment someone's wondering, well, it's been a couple days.

[B]

Like I have, is it a scam?

[A]

Yeah, we don't want that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So you had already had this priming. You got into the program.

[B]

You know what I forgot?

[A]

What?

[B]

I forgot that I signed up for your program. I got the eight weeks of coaching, and then I upgrade. I forgot.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

I forgot about the eight weeks of coaching. I'll tell you why. I felt so included in your world from day one. So I don't even think about, like, what was my ascension ladder journey as your customer. I just think, like, I knew I found my place and the details didn't matter.

[A]

That makes me so happy. Cause that's what I want to create. And the reason I say that is because there's so many things that people could buy online and there's so many people, like even just listening to this episode, your phone's probably going to be like, well, they're interested in ads somehow. And so there's so many options. And so what I want to do is to create the option that stands out from everybody else. And I think what you and what Katherine does, what everybody does, is your goal is to say, how can I communicate and advertise in a way that truly does stand out and does not look like what anybody else does. So the good news is when you come to the program, no matter at what level, like, our goal is to say, we just want you to win. And so I knew from day one, I was like, this woman belongs to the mastermind. But what I Do know is she's here now. We do everything we can to support her. So I feel like you got in there and then you started to understand the data. And I remember on one of the coaching calls, you were like, you know, I had the agency and you're like, and I just saw all these different ads where we could have been spending more and we should have been adjusting this. Like, you just were enlightened. I think that's one of the best. I know it's a selfish thing, but for me, for people to come and say, hey, I've been doing this for X amount of years or decades, and I never knew this until today, those are the things that just get me most fulfilled. Because so many people are like, I've had an ad training before, I've done something else. And it's like, this really is different. You'll really learn how to interpret it differently. And then we've already made it better.

[B]

So you also include implementation, which is so powerful. And you've diversified what that support looks like. So, like, you've got creative call, there's a setup call, there's strategy calls. Like, all those things round out the needs that we have.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And I just remember thinking, well, I have to suffer seven days until my next call with the agency. And then I got 45 minutes to get all my questions in, and they may or may not get answered. Nobody cares about this as much as I do. And when I knew that the program had multiple calls a week.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I said to my husband, I was like, they have multiple calls a week. He was like, you're gonna love that.

[A]

And I was like, yes. He knew you.

[B]

He knew. Oh, yeah.

[A]

And that's in the mastermind. And the thing is, everybody operates differently. And with the agency, I think the other hard part is there is literally nothing you can do in that week before. Whereas in here, it's like, there's changes, there's advice, there's recommendations. Now there's the Rainmaker AI. Have you played with it yet?

[B]

I absolutely have.

[A]

Okay. So I have to tell you something funny.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

One of my friends, she's a friend of mine, so she texted me and she's like, I've named the Rainmaker AI something else. Okay. And she calls it Raquel. She's like, because Raquel is strong willed, will get what she wants, and is also will be like the tough love friend. And sometimes she's a little spicy. And so I was like, tell me more. And she's like, yeah, I plugged in Something into the AI. And it was like, you should absolutely not do that. And it was like, and the reason I say that is because. And it was like all these reasons. And she was like, I listened to Raquel. I was like, I do not want to like steer away. And ended up within a week getting eight extremely quality leads for their ABA therapy practice. She's like, raquel knows what's up. I was like, well, Raquel, I know we keep calling her Raquel.

[B]

Raquel's based on your brain.

[A]

Well, exactly right. So it's funny because now we've made this new AI, so it has all of our training, every, every minute of our training, but also all of our coaching calls from me and all the team, all the Q&As, it has all the AI questions. So like every question that someone's asked before, it's like uploaded in here. And so it's so funny because now in the group call, someone will be like, well, I asked the Rainmaker AI. I'm like, so you asked me like, what did me say to you there?

[B]

It's very meta.

[A]

It is very meta.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we're still adjusting it, but it's been really helpful. So I feel the difference now is you've got different support.

[B]

Well, it's like a 247 support structure. That's what it is. And when you're a business owner who thinks about little else than your business 24 7, it's about alignment. So like you need the pieces to align. And so when the pieces are not aligned around what's going on inside your business, how you reach your customers, how you get support as a business owner, when alignment is not present, you will only have frustration and dysfunction. And that shows up like in our health and well being. And it's just not a good thing. And so if you're, if you value owning your future, this is the skill set you must have. And it's getting more competitive out there in the world every single day. So if, if you're not interested in the idea of delegating your future to someone else, because that's what it is when you say, I'm going to outsource this incredibly important part of my business to somebody else because like, oh, I can't possibly learn this or I can't be my favorite, I can't be bothered to do this myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, you have got to know how this works if you want to be successful.

[A]

I agree. And you know what I just thought about, I just had this coming, you know, how my brain goes. I, like, have an idea.

[B]

You're all obsessed with the way your brain works.

[A]

I was like, you know, your success

[B]

gap is a skill gap, 100%.

[A]

It's like you just don't know how to do something. And even. And that's.

[B]

And the thing.

[A]

Someone might listen to this, but, well, I don't need the skill. I still would argue that you would. And also, you or someone on your team must have the skill.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Right. So even if it's not a skill gap for you, it's like, have someone on your team learn this. What would you say to someone now that you feel like you have control? And I think you just had. You've had your first.

[B]

I had my first six figure month, which has been an enormous goal for a long time.

[A]

How did that feel?

[B]

Really exciting. I feel like, you know, we're in the year of the fire horse now.

[A]

Yeah, I heard about that.

[B]

Yeah, it's a big deal. Last year was all about shedding. Oh, you're the snake. Oh, yes. This is. I am not an expert, but I really talk about alignment. I feel aligned with what's going on this year. So it just felt like I was released and like, started to gallop.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like the fire horse actually came through Palm Springs today. It did, and kicked up a bunch

[B]

of dust for the Mastermind routine.

[A]

And it dusted it up around here. It was freaking dust fire.

[B]

That's got to be something behind whatever that was.

[A]

Something. Okay, so how does it feel to have your first six figure month and know that when you want to make a change and when something doesn't go as planned, your data isn't looking good, that you feel empowered to, like, have a next move?

[B]

I mean, I think it makes me feel like a business owner. Like, I always think about that phrase, business owner owning. Literally, like, are you owning your business, your destiny, your decision making, your potential? You need to be in a. In a seat of ownership and not being owned by your business because, like, we are actually designing our businesses. And so we need to be in the proactive leadership seat. And for me, again, I would not have a business if not for paid ads. That's all I need to know. That means the highest use of me is mastering this skill. And if you're like, I don't really want to do this, well, you have a responsibility to the dollars, to your clients, to yourself. And if you learn this, I want people to understand that you can get to a point where you say, I don't have an ads. Budget, the limit does not exist if

[A]

one is turning to four. Say that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. If it's a profitable system, you don't need to think about what your ads budget is. You need to think about are my ads converting? Are my ads bringing the right people in and are we growing in incremental revenue and incremental profit?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it doesn't matter what your ads budget is.

[A]

All the things that matter is can you fulfill on these products? Where do you need get a bigger Weller? How can your team grow?

[B]

I spend between 20 and 30 thousand dollars a month on ads.

[A]

So fun you don't care. There's going to be a day where you say I spend $300,000 a month.

[B]

I hope it's 12 months from now or soon. I'm scaling every single day. I was not. Cause I was like, I can't. I have not yet replicated my 5x grow as on my one ad content. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I'm starting to see and I'm, you know, we were talking before about how like I feel very able to hold uncertainty. Yeah.

[A]

And so we were talking about today. So one of the things just to give everybody context is today at the Mastermind event, one of the things we did is we went around the room

[B]

because there's a bunch of six, seven

[A]

and eight figure entrepreneurs all together. And I said, hey, can everybody just share what is one thing that you're really good at that you could teach the room about what it is, why it matters that has led to your success? And one of the things that Kathryn said was her ability to hold uncertainty.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I think that that's a requirement if you're serious about scaling your business through paid ads. Like you do need to have the ability to say, I don't exactly know where this is going to take me, but I've developed the skills to evaluate the facts day to day.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And use those facts. And so, you know, I've always been a product based business owner, which is why in the beginning of before the Small Business Planner when it was cash flow for creatives, it was just trainings and digital downloads and like it didn't light me up as much. So I also couldn't see sell with as much conviction.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, but when you're a product based business owner, you need to be able to get really comfortable with 5, 6 figures of inventory all the time planning those purchasing patterns and how are you financing that. And I can do a lot of financial engineering in my business with my eyes closed because I've mastered those skills.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, I don't need to run a cash flow on an actual computer because at this point, my business is so simple in structure compared to the way more complicated apparel based businesses I run in the past. You can imagine style, size, color. It's actually exponential math when you're talking about clothing.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And don't even get me started on shoes. Which of course I was like, we have to sell shoes.

[A]

I know. Boot Camp for Rockport Shoes was one of my clients.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So like, I remember all the logistics of the CMO and the men's shoes

[B]

and women's shoes sizing.

[A]

It's a whole thing. So, Kathryn, here's what I want to do. I want you to think from everything that you've learned, what are three specific things or maybe two. Two or three things that come to mind. You're like, I learned this and I just want someone to hear it because it'd be helpful for them. And then lastly, I want us to wrap up with like, what paid ads has, like, really done for you if we look at a high level. So what are a few, like, takeaways of things you've learned that could be helpful to someone listening?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Well, I think the biggest takeaway that I've learned is the way in which the platforms interact and support each other.

[A]

And so, yes, why you shouldn't just do one type of ad.

[B]

No, you. You cannot do just one type of ad. Nope. Because even if my meta performance is not as great as it was in years past, why are we still growing? Because people are seeing it on Instagram and then they're going and Googling. Our Google conversion rate is great. And my best clients are coming from Google and actually from YouTube. Wow. So we have a YouTube video about our exact bank account setup that you need to run a profitable business. And it has a ton of views and has brought in my absolute best clients that have now joined our membership and things like that. And so you need to create an ecosystem. But I never real. And I knew that, I guess, but I didn't know how to tell the story through the ecosystem and certainly didn't know how to run the ads.

[A]

Yeah. So thing number one is being present. Multi platform.

[B]

Yes, multi platform. And then that really requires belief in yourself because now you are becoming a full blown content creator in a serious way to make that happen.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

But when there's a plan, you can make the effort and know it will be Fruitful. It's when there's no plan that you're like, why am I. Why am I doing. Yeah. Where should I spend my time? And how does this fit into the bigger picture? I have no idea where to even begin to look for the bigger picture. So you've given me the bigger picture, and it gives me the confidence to say, okay, this is because we all have limited time. Right. Like, what is the plan?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I can do it. And it's reaching people.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Actually, I came here, everybody was like, I've. I've been getting your ads.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I've been.

[B]

Everybody was like, I'm getting all your ads. And I'm just like. And someone said, wow, that's the ultimate compliment in a room full of people who run paid ads.

[A]

And I was like, it's like I'm seeing you. I know. So, so, so. So the way that we teach the retargeting allows you to have that feeling. Because not everybody gets to feel like that who runs ads.

[B]

Yeah. And the crazy thing is most of our ads convert to paid to cold traffic. So I convert to cold traffic every single day of the week.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Seven days a week. Yeah. And so anybody who's stragglers who are not sure, hit them with the retargeting.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And I had new ideas for retargeting today.

[A]

All right, so tip number one was being on multi platform. That's one thing that's changed. What's one or two other tips that you have?

[B]

I mean, I think it's the practical. The confidence that I have on a practical level, because I can go in to ads manager and actually utilize it on a daily basis and I can do something about that. And it just makes me feel like I'm in the driver's seat of my own life.

[A]

Yeah. Is there something specific about the training or something that you're like? I think this is what allowed me to do that.

[B]

Yes. I think it's the way Ashley is so great at teaching in different modalities. So, like, you'll draw, you'll explain with stories you will repeat yourself. But also the video is not that long. So it's like, it's succinct and you make it make sense through examples that don't have anything to do with ads.

[A]

I think that's actually a takeaway, and we talked about this today is when you want someone to believe something that they don't, you kind of have to think of yourself like an attorney. Like, I'm proving to you at a court of law that this is true. Like, you have to say, how can you prove this? And one of the ways the brain will remember you. Because one of the things we said today. I'll go ahead and give this to everybody listening. One of the things we said today was that your brain is not a storage system.

[B]

That was very profound. Deletion system. Deletion system.

[A]

That was profound. And it is literally designed to be able to delete so that it can only restore and retain what matters. And the only way it's gonna do that is if you have novelty, if you have emotion, if you have something that allows it to grasp on and say, this is different. So I think even the fact that you realizing that. Cause you teach people, too. It's like, what will allow them to really learn. And it's. How can you take this concept and explain it, analogize it, or whatever you say.

[B]

That was so helpful this morning. Cause I realized why the planner has worked so well is because of the novelty piece. Like, it is a total novelty. The idea of this is a beautiful physical product that can help me have a profitable business. What?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

The other thing I've learned from you, which relates to, like, rhythm and rhyme and repetition and all of that, is that you have to keep repeating yourself. You do. It is so good and important to keep repeating yourself, because no one has any idea you exist. We can feel like we are so loud and obnoxious, and it can kind of impact your ability to be visible. You're just getting started.

[A]

I agree. You're just getting started and saying it different ways on your ads, too. Like, there's so many different ways you can say the same thing with a different example. So doing that. So, Katherine, as we wrap up today. Ah, sorry. It was literally tickling my noggin.

[B]

All right, we're back.

[A]

We're back back in the studio. So, Katherine, as we wrap up today, one of the things that you've shared with me. I think it would be special if you shared with everybody else what has paid advertising meant to your business, and what has it really been able to do for you?

[B]

Yeah, I think I don't lead with a lot of the why facts, but for me, having a business has made an unbelievable impact in my mental health because it really made me feel like I could solve problems. And like, you had Adley here today, and she was talking about how to create really viral organic content. Because organic is a piece of the puzzle.

[A]

It is.

[B]

And I was saying, you know, she's Giving these prompts about how to kind of say these bold things that make people pay attention and think abstractly about your product and how you make it macro.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the reality is I, you know, I said in 2024, I was going through IVF the entire year, and it's really a diagnostic tool to, like, figure out, is there something wrong with you? And, like, there was something wrong with me. And so I ended up not being able to. To carry our children, but only finding that out well into the IVF journey. So sort of trapped in the dynamic. Yeah. And, like, what are you going to do? You know, they're already here. And so the fact is, we were able to pursue surrogacy because my business had done so well so quickly. And so the reason I mentioned Adley is I. I need. I have an obligation and a responsibility to continue to get this material in front of small business owners. Like, I am dedicated to the success of the American small business owner, and I have to reach more people. And the real truth of what this has meant for me is that I was able to save my son's life because my business was profitable enough to contribute to the cost of our surrogacy journey. And I couldn't get him here any other way. And he's doing 36 days, six hours, and seven minutes. So I could check the countdown on my phone. And, like, what else can I say to anyone, which is that you can find yourself in life in a story you never expected to be reading. And when you are able to have a business that is actually a profitable system that pays you well, like, I was saving a little bit, like, every month. And then when this became the only option to bring our family home, I was like, well, I've been saving money from the planner, so let's do this.

[A]

The business made it happen.

[B]

That's it. The business made it happen. And the business can make so much happen for other people. And I'm really grateful to get to be seen by them through ads so that we can all kind of move forward in whatever your life asks of you and whatever you need to face. It's much easier when you have a business behind you.

[A]

It is. You know, Katherine, last night. And I'm thankful that you shared that, too, I said this to the hall of Fame dinner last night. I said, the definition of famous is widely known. I told them, and I'll say it to you, there's no one I would rather want more widely known than you for what you've done. Yeah, you've done a really great job of being willing to pivot and adjust over and over again. And because of that, now you literally get to bring life not only to your family, but also to the people that you help. Because I know the feeling of saying what I do legitimately helps people. And so I'm very proud of you for being the rainmaker that you are.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And honestly, the last thing I'll say is you just. Even while you were doing this and you had this whole life you were, like, creating, you have invested in yourself relentlessly. You have showed up for yourself. You have showed up on the calls, you've done the work, and you are successful for a reason. And I'm so proud to get to work with you.

[B]

Thank you so much. Yeah. No one be afraid to make a pivot.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

I was teaching to empty zoom rooms, and now we're here, and it's a big difference. It's a big difference.

[A]

And that's the. That's on tolerating discomfort. So if you are interested in the Small Business Planner, we're going to link to it below this episode. We'll link to Katherine's Instagram. And Katherine, I'm just so proud of you. I'm so grateful to know you. And we'll link to this and we cannot wait to see you on the next episode. It's amazing.

[B]

Thank you for having me. Of course.