B2B Teams Are Chasing AI Trends While Underfunding What Actually Matters

Summary

Podcast Summary: Marketing Trends

Episode Title: B2B Teams Are Chasing AI Trends While Underfunding What Actually Matters
Host: Stephanie Postles (Mission)
Guest: Daniella Sampson, Head of Marketing at Pendulum
Release Date: March 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Marketing Trends explores the pitfalls of B2B marketing teams’ obsession with chasing AI fads while neglecting crucial foundational aspects like brand reputation, social intelligence, and empowering underfunded teams. Stephanie Postles sits down with Daniella Sampson, Head of Marketing at Pendulum, to dissect the shift from traditional SEO to Generative Engine Optimization (GEO), the evolution of social listening, the real-world deployment of AI agents in marketing orgs, and how marketing leaders can keep focus amidst constant change. The conversation is candid, energetic, and rich with actionable insights for marketers looking to thrive in the AI era without losing sight of what really moves the needle.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Evolution from SEO to GEO

[03:07 – 05:38]

• GEO (Generative Engine Optimization): Emerges as the new paradigm—focused on brand reputation and credibility in conversational AI channels (like ChatGPT, Perplexity, Claude), not keyword stuffing.
  • “GEO is just putting your reputation back where it belongs in the hands of humans, even though it’s doing it through an AI chatbot.” — Daniella [03:12]
• SEO vs GEO: SEO relied on keyword-centric strategies; GEO requires conversational, credible content and engagement in authoritative sources (e.g., Reddit, Wikipedia).
  • “You need to now look at earned channels. That’s probably the fundamental difference with SEO and GEO.” — Daniella [05:13]
• PR’s Role in GEO: PR is now central again, as relationship-building and storytelling directly impact how LLMs “see” brands.
  • “PR is being brought back into the game, which is beautiful, because PR are great storytellers, great relationship builders.” — Daniella [05:00]

AI Prompt Monitoring: Signal or Noise?

[06:05 – 09:48]

• Current Panic: Companies over-invest in monitoring thousands of LLM prompts daily, but the real value is in understanding key themes and top sources influencing AI outputs.
  • “I’ve seen companies want to monitor thousands of prompts... executives being like, ‘I want to make sure we’re number one when it’s surfaced!’ That panic isn’t going to help.” — Daniella [06:42]
  • “Partner with us and we’ll figure it out together... but the people supposed to be experts are still admitting they’re not quite sure how it works.” — Daniella [07:23]
• Strategic Focus: Audit the channels and sources AI pulls from and strategize accordingly (e.g., prioritize presence on Reddit, earned media) rather than shallow “prompt hacks.”

Underfunded Teams & The Opportunity for AI Agents

[00:54 – 02:32 and 23:35 – 26:53]

• Real-World Bottlenecks: Social media management is chronically under-resourced, leading to burnout and churn.
  • “Every organization I’ve worked at, social media tends to be underfunded... they have the weight of the world on them.” — Daniella [23:38]
• AI Agent Teams: The future is having a human “oversee” a squad of specialized AI agents handling content clipping, approvals, content calendar coordination, etc.
  • “It would make them feel like they have a team... they could take some of that pressure off their shoulders.” — Daniella [24:07]
  • “Social media managers… are set up for failure to begin with. I think AI agents will play a huge role in that realm for sure.” — Daniella [25:09]
• Other Undersupported Roles: Demand generation and analyst functions—the same principle applies.

Social Listening to Social Intelligence

[12:29 – 16:42]

• Legacy Social Listening is Outdated: Sole reliance on platforms like X (Twitter) offers limited value; leading marketers move to “social intelligence,” processing multi-modal and multi-channel citizen and brand data (including podcasts, YouTube, third-party reviews).
  • “Now we have to advance from social listening to social intelligence. Traditional social listening isn’t going to be up to where we need it to be for today’s brands.” — Daniella [12:34]
• Technological Gaps Identified: Scraping text isn’t enough—brands need tools to parse video, audio, visual, and contextual info to build authentic presence and insights.

Data Overload & The Importance of Focus

[16:42 – 18:44]

• AI brings data at scale, but… The deluge requires strict prioritization and clear objectives—or risk decision paralysis and diffused messaging.
  • “You have to have your goals and objectives and exactly what you’re trying to do... if not, you’re going to have too many options, too many decisions.” — Daniella [17:05]

Human Judgment Remains Essential

[18:09 – 19:22]

• Human Taste & Intuition: AI can do data gathering, aggregation, and preliminary filtering, but creative decisions and “taste” still require human wisdom.
  • “No one can put [intuition] into a prompt…it’s just in my head and wisdom I’ve acquired through all of my experiences.” — Stephanie [18:13]
• AI Output Quality: AI is only as good as its training data—mediocre inputs yield mediocre results.

Smart Use Cases & AI in Practice

[19:34 – 22:20]

• Pendulum’s Approach: Using AI for customer-desired calculators (e.g., an earned media value calculator), continuous tone audits, and automating repetitive brand book creation tasks.
  • “All the monotonous stuff you used to have to do yourself or hire someone to train on? It’s like, oh, this is beautiful.” — Daniella [21:47]
• Rule of Thumb: Give the robots the rote tasks so humans can focus on high-value, strategic work.

Rethinking Org Structure for AI Era

[22:31 – 26:53]

• AI-Driven Org Chart: Imagine orgs as a human “manager” with hierarchies of AI agents executing tasks, from content creation to analytics and reporting.
• Where to Start: Identify the most underfunded, high-burnout roles and support with AI agents to unlock capacity and innovation.

AI’s Net Impact: Hope, Caution, & Responsibility

[26:58 – 31:15]

• Dual-Edged Sword: AI’s benefits (efficiency, medicine, helping the workforce) are weighed against risks (mis/disinformation, deepfakes, societal trust erosion).
  • “With great power comes great responsibility. That should be the tagline for AI.” — Daniella [28:45]
  • “If it’s put in the wrong hands... it can be used to divide us.” — Daniella [28:54]
• Solutions Needed: Tools to verify authenticity (deepfake detectors, content trust scores) are urgently needed.
• Human Connection & Trust: Brands need to work harder building genuine relationships in an environment where consumers increasingly question what’s real.

Content Trends & Brand Building in 2026

[31:15 – 34:56]

• Old advice is obsolete: Consumers now engage with isolated “hero” clips rather than curated feeds or consistent brand profiles; consistency of tone/personality still matters but esthetic “perfect feed” is largely irrelevant.
  • “No one goes to your feed and says, ‘Oh, I like the brand esthetic of their feed’—that’s not a thing anymore.” — Daniella [32:21]
• Authentic Personal Content: On platforms like LinkedIn, off-script videos and genuine personal sharing outperform sterile “thought leadership” posts.
• Beware Trend-Chasing: B2B brands who desperately hop on TikTok dance trends often end up producing cringeworthy content.
  • “When B2B try to jump on the trendy TikToks… they give the ick.” — Daniella [50:26]

Practical Brand Strategy & Data-Driven Insights

[37:57 – 47:56]

• Avoid AI Washing: Don’t slap “AI” on everything; deeply understand audience, competitors, and positioning.
• Data-Driven Brand Audits: Combine extensive competitive audits (across web, ads, PR, social, earned media) with VOC and archetype mapping.
  • “I manually look at 300 unique data points… what the personality is, what the tone of voice is, what the value proposition is.” — Daniella [39:53]
• Surprising Discoveries: Internal perceptions are often out-of-sync with reality; real audits can reveal unexpected strengths or overlooked gaps.

Building a Modern Social Team

[48:17 – 51:10]

• Dream Team Structure:
  • Senior social lead (Director)
  • Social strategist (for listening/intelligence)
  • Dedicated designer/video talent
  • Clear separation of creative vs. analytical vs. strategic roles
• Platform Prioritization: For B2B, focus first on LinkedIn and (surprisingly) TikTok for reach, professional “hacks,” and brand voice. YouTube is valuable but needs resource investment and consistency.
  • “LinkedIn and TikTok... I would not invest right away in Instagram.” — Daniella [51:35]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “For the companies who were maybe faking it before they made it... that’s where it’s going to be uncovered.” — Daniella [03:59]
• “Authentic brand building is going to occur and... it’s starting to shape up potentially in a different way.” — Daniella [11:00]
• “Anything with reporting at this point, like, no human needs to ever report again... you should just get the report and be like, thank you.” — Stephanie [26:04]
• “Now, agentic AI is a whole new playing field. So you need to up your tech stack.” — Daniella [13:53]
• “You have to let them in. They need to understand it and you need to explain why they should have a reason to believe in what you’re doing.” — Daniella’s advice to marketing leaders [56:14]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• GEO vs SEO Breakdown: [03:07 – 05:38]
• AI Prompt Monitoring: [06:05 – 09:48]
• Social Intelligence vs. Listening: [12:29 – 16:42]
• AI Agents & Org Design: [22:31 – 26:53]
• AI’s Double-Edged Impact: [26:58 – 31:15]
• Content & Brand Building Shifts: [31:15 – 34:56]
• Brand Strategy (Data-Driven): [37:57 – 47:56]
• Social Team of the Future: [48:17 – 51:10]
• Channel Prioritization: [51:35 – 53:52]
• Advice for 2026 Leaders: [55:36 – 57:14]

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Actionable Takeaways

• Audit your brand’s presence in conversational LLMs—focus on earned (not just owned) channels.
• Build your social org around specialized human talent supported by AI agents, not replaced by them.
• Prioritize authentic, context-driven content over volume and trend-chasing.
• Use AI to free up humans for strategic, creative, and relationship-building work.
• Anchor your marketing strategy in rich, multi-channel data—not just what’s visible on the surface.
• Help leadership (and the company) understand the “why” behind marketing’s moves—internal buy-in drives results.

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Lighting Round Insights

• Inspiration: “My 12-year-old daughter. The things she comes out with—I could apply that.” — Daniella [57:35]
• Future-Ready Skills: “People skills... it’s getting harder and harder for people to present in person, make authentic connections.” — Daniella [58:21]
• If not marketing: “Something with health and wellness... helping women thrive in the working environment.” — Daniella [59:10]

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass for B2B and brand marketers navigating the flood of AI-driven change. Daniella Sampson’s lived experience and practical frameworks offer clarity on what’s hype and what matters, while Stephanie Postles’ lively, grounded questions ensure the conversation never loses touch with real-world marketing dilemmas. Whether reengineering your social team, auditing your brand’s AI presence, or just trying to keep your culture and humanity intact, this is an essential listen for modern marketing leaders.

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Connect with Daniella Sampson:
LinkedIn – LinkedIn Profile

For more Marketing Trends:
Subscribe and listen at Mission.org/MarketingTrends

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Every organization I've worked at, social media tends to be underclouded when it comes to resources. You tend to have one social media manager who has the weight of the world on them. They are expected to post organically like three to five times a day and then interact with everything and do five different channels. There's no way they can do all of this. So I think this is where the AI agents, it would make them feel like they have a team and they could take some of that pressure off their shoulders.

[A]

A dramatic shift happening in AI social

[B]

feed filled with examples of AI agents doing some wild things they'll be able to accomplish, accomplish so much more and not lose complete work life balance. Social media managers are the thing that tend to churn the most because expectations are so high on them and it's almost like they're set up for failure to begin with. I think AI agents will play a huge role in that realm for sure.

[A]

What if I told you that the most important marketing channel in 2026 isn't TikTok, isn't at a home and isn't even your website. It's the conversations happening all around you that you can't see. Welcome back to Marketing Trends. I'm your host, Stephanie Postols and today I am so excited to be sitting down with Daniella Sampson, the head of marketing at Pendulum. Daniela has done something that most marketers haven't. She's worked across healthcare, med, tech, small companies, big companies, and now is at the cutting edge of AI powered brand intelligence at Pendulum. She recently wrote a piece that got a lot of marketing leaders talking about why your social media manager deserves a seat at the exec table, why GEO is just brand reputation with better tech, and why your social listening is stuck in 2019. Daniela, welcome to the podcast. Hi.

[B]

So excited to be here. Let's dive in.

[A]

I know this one's been a long time coming, so I feel like I've just been building up my excitement for it since. Since we first met.

[B]

Yeah. And so much has evolved too, as it does in marketing. So it's like we've got lots to unpack.

[A]

Yes. Yes. So I mentioned in the intro something that you wrote that caught my attention and I think you said something along the lines of JIO shouldn't feel new to a seasoned brand marketer. So geo, Generative Engine Optimization, big term right now. But I'd love to hear why you said this is not something that should feel new. Yeah.

[B]

So I think anytime marketing loves a new acronym. And we all kind of panic at first. What does this mean for our brand? What does this mean for how we report out? But really, GEO is just putting your reputation back where it belongs in the hands of humans, even though it's doing it through an AI chatbot. So SEO was really feel like artificial keyword stuffing. So you would say, hey, I want to rank for this. So I'm going to create pretty bad content that has this word shoved every other, you know, five elements to be able to boost it in search engines. But now things like ChatGPT and perplexity and cloud are like, hey, you say you're good at this, but I'm actually going to do some homework and see what everyone thinks you're good at. And then I'm going to serve that up. So for the people in the brands that have invested in community building, authentic engagement with consumers and customers, those are the ones where it's like, hey, don't worry, it's okay. If you're not high ranking, you will be because you've already invested there, you've already built those relationships. But for the companies who maybe they were faking it before they were making it and not doing that other groundwork that all brand professionals know how to do, that's where it's going to be uncovered. Hey, maybe you don't have the best brand reputation out there, but everybody has the chance to build it up at this point. But now it's just kind of on the surface.

[A]

Yep. Yep. So I want to have a basic question because I've heard some people say, oh, Geo, it is the same as SEO similar. You just have to do things to get the LLMs to like you. So how is Geo different than SEO?

[B]

So it's different in a few fundamental ways. So first off, it's not based on keywords. It's much more based on a conversational approach. So a quick thing you can do is audit your content and make sure you're not writing for SEO, but you're writing for conversational interfaces. I would say the main difference is you have to pay attention to the sources and the citations that LLMs are serving up as reputable. So, for example, if you're noticing, hey, they're mentioning the New York Times a lot. They're mentioning Wikipedia, they're mentioning Reddit. So Reddit's a big one that all brands are like, ooh, we've ignored this beast for a while now. We need a strategy there. So I would say you have to work on a number of different levels and bring PR in. PR is being brought back into the game, which is beautiful because PR are great storytellers, great relationship builders. So we have to get all of them in the room and start addressing all of these different valuable sources to build your reputation in them. Instead of just your owned channels, you need to now look at earned channels. So that's probably the fundamental difference with SEO and geo.

[A]

Okay, amazing. Thank you for clearing that up. So it's been interesting this past, I mean, I'd say six months to eight months of companies, they're just obsessing over monitoring prompts and responses from LLMs right now. And there's all these tools being built to try and hack this, which is so interesting. I feel like this is what happens with every new trend of, like, now, how do I hack that system and figure out how they're doing it? Is this helpful or is this just noise?

[B]

I'd say it's a little bit of both. So I personally err on the side that there's a lot more noise than there needs to be. I think I've seen some companies want to monitor thousands of prompts, and that's overwhelming. We already have a lot to do as marketers, so to be able to say, hey, we're going to start monitoring 10,000 prompts a day, really, it's like, okay, what is your core use case? What is your core value? Who are you trying to get in front of and take maybe 50 prompts, but really build your strategy around the sources, it doesn't have to be crazy prompt monitoring, it can definitely inform your strategy and it is smart to look at, you know, what are they surfacing? How are they angling things and each LLM does it differently. So that's the nuance that you also have to figure out. Don't just do it for one channel. Maybe look at the top four to five LLMs. But I think the noise and the, you know, everyone running around like a chicken with their head cut off and executives being like, I want to make sure we're number one when it's surfaced and, and we need this and quick, change everything, throw everything out the door. I think that panic isn't going to help anyone, nor is it going to move you ahead faster than anyone else. Even the companies. You know, we've looked at companies that are doing LLM monitoring and they're trying to figure it out too. So they're all like, hey, on our roadmap is this. We're still not quite sure what moves the needle, but partner with us and we'll be, you know, an innovative partner to you and we'll figure it out together. Which is great. It's great to see they want to partner with you, but also, like, guys, they're supposed to be the experts and they still are admitting on these calls that they're not quite sure how it works. So it's interesting.

[A]

Nobody knows. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So, I mean, it gets back to what you said earlier around like looking at the sources then, because maybe not knowing exactly how you're showing up for the prompts. And like you said, maybe we don't need to measure thousands of prompts every single day to see where you're showing up, but there is probably themes right now in a space of I don't know exactly. Like, there are some themes of, like, okay, I keep seeing that Reddit is being pulled when giving answers. Or maybe G2 or like, you can probably start seeing themes in your industry to know. Well, I don't know exactly how people are searching within these LLMs, but I do know that they keep looking at Forrester or something like that. Probably not Forrester, I'm not sure. But that's a good one. It's a good one. Okay. Okay. I'm like, I don't know. Is it anywhere? Okay, yeah. So like finding those and then how do you partner with those outlets, publications, substacks, whatever it might be, and worry more about exposure in a conversational way than the exact conversational prompt that people are typing in to find your product?

[B]

I will say something interesting too is there's always big buzz around something like geo. Right. And how do you show up and how do you monitor. But something that's been in front of us for a long time that no one acknowledges is, guys, there's so many brand mentions that are hidden in video content, visual content like this podcast. If you drop a brand name, how is it being monitored? So even outside of LLMs, it's like, we also need to look at all of these channels. Over 500 hours of content is uploaded to YouTube. I think it's every hour or some ridiculous stat. So I think too, yes, it's great. This is the shiny new toy. But when you're looking at share a voice right now, and maybe you're only looking at Instagram and you kind of have rough visibility into that or X, X is still a huge piece of social listening. Where should X be your main source of social listening at this point? So I think LLM tends to get a lot of attraction and noise right now. But if you take a step back and in total at social listening or where you're showing up or your brand reputation, there's other things you can be doing right now to move things way faster than monitoring 500 prompts a day.

[A]

Yep, yep. I mean, I. You're. Yes. Preaching to the choir when it comes to podcasts, YouTube. I've been telling brands this for a while of like, if you want to be, you know, being. If you want to be found, if you want to be authentically found, like showing up in podcasts like this, where we're giving listeners really amazing content, content they can take to their team, but then also it's organically within the episode. Like, that's way better than just running an ad somewhere or trying to force your content into pieces that they don't really fit. Like when our guests name drop. Oh, here's my tech stack. Here's the best tools that I'm using. Like, that's. People are clicking. You can see them finding it in there, going like, that's how I think a lot of customers, B2B. B2C, they're using YouTube, they're using podcasts to find a place they trust and then going to those vendors and products and whatnot, just from hearing it.

[B]

Yeah, it feels honest. And I think too. So we just saw this, right? So Claude made noise during the super bowl with their ads saying, hey, there's gonna now be ads on things like ChatGPT. So that adds another layer of, okay, now you can pay to play. So does that mean when I'm using these are the things that are surfaced, authentic and the right thing, and is it accurate brand reputation or the best tool for this or Is it just whoever had the most money can infiltrate the context of what comes out. So it's going to be an interesting, like six to nine months to see how this all unfolds. We were all hot and heavy on this GEO piece and this is where authentic brand building is going to occur and it's starting to shape up potentially in a different way. I'm actually very excited to see how things turn out because it always makes it interesting as a marketer on how you'll adapt and format it into your strategy.

[A]

Yep, yep. So I want to ask about AI agents because especially over these past, I mean, two weeks, I feel like the exponential leap that has been made just in two weeks, it's, I mean one amazing. I've been playing around with these agents and seeing what they can do, which is just like mind blowing of watching what can happen with multiple agents doing different things, working on your behalf, going and finding things, completing a purchase. I mean, it's insane. And so with all of these big tech advancements, how does that change what social listening needs to be? In the era of instead of me going out and finding a brand and having loyalty with it and listening in that way, now you've got AI agents going purchasing on behalf of customers. They have no loyalty maybe. And they are doing all the things that you mentioned before, scraping every piece of intel on the Internet, of going to Reddit, going to YouTube, how are people talking about it? So they're doing all that at once. But how do you think, yeah, the social listening piece changes in this new era.

[B]

Yeah, this is something I touch on quite a bit. And my company Pendulum does as well is now we have to advance from social listening to social intelligence. And there's kind of been whispers of it and they've been talking about it, but traditional social listening isn't going to be up to where we need it to be for today's brands and the standards of what you need to evaluate when it comes to consumer behavior. And not in a, not in a creepy way of monitoring, it's more of, yeah, how do you filter out the noise? How do you see what's a bot and what's not? And that's where does it have the underlying tech and the AI capabilities to filter out, to add context, to add intent, to add tone, to process it through their own LLMs and technologies? So I think that's where you're going to start to notice the gaps in technology this year. So Pendulum has invested in social intelligence because we know that's where we're headed. That's where things have to go. You can't have 75% of your data come from X. It also can't all be text based. So historically if something says they, they can look at YouTube data, they just look at the title and the meta description, that's it. So if your brand or something you care about isn't mentioned there and it happens to be dropped midway through, something like this that we're on, you don't know about it, you can't analyze it and then put it into context of your strategy and insights to move you forward. So I think when we look at this year and the ramping up of AI, I think we all dipped our toes in the water with like generative AI, right? Like, oh cool, we can have an image or a press release now it's like, no. Agentic AI is a whole new playing field. So you need to up your tech stack to be able to incorporate it and then be able to separate out the noise from how consumers are using it on a day to day.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, so break this down more for me. Moving to this more intelligence ecosystem. Like, I mean, how I'm hearing that is you have people. Let's say I'm going and exploring Pendulum and I'm on your website, I'm like, oh, it's beautiful design. And I see, let's just say the CEO, you know, talking and here's a podcast interview, like, I'm exploring my own way. Are you? If you see traffic coming in, that's more, you know, let's just say an AI agent coming in and looking. Are you diverting it to a different experience than what someone like me would get?

[B]

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think the agent is supposed to be working on behalf of the human. Right. So the way they crawl things, I don't think it would alter the the storefront, if you will. But the back end and the code and the way things are written, I think that's where things will be different so that it can comprehend it in different ways. But a lot of times it's all the backend tech. So the front end looks the exact same, but the experience, I guess you could say technically is different because they're working in different ways. And the way they're feeding through, they're not actually experiencing your website. They're working through the technical components to get to the end part. So I think front end will say the same back end needs to be way more complex.

[A]

Okay, got it. Yeah. And then when I think about Intelligence now, too. It does feel like we're entering into an era that we're gonna have so much data and so much ability to see what's happening. And yeah, I mean, even just, I mean, small things that I'm doing on my own with these agents, I'm like, whoa, I just got so much data. It went out and it scraped all of Reddit for marketing, kind of. Let's just take this interview, for example. I'm like, okay, my team made a prep doc for this interview that you saw. Let me go and run it through some research agents and one that has a specialty in YouTube and one for LinkedIn and Reddit. And watching it just go out there and be like, here's what everyone's talking about on Reddit, big white space opportunities. Here's if you're director and above, which is most of our audience, here's what they would care about. When I look at YouTube, here's the things that are getting the most views right now and other white space content areas. And then here's a whole document ready for you. And I did it in two minutes. And then it even shows, like, here's some video clips you should pull because we see these ones are trending. I mean, so much data, but it also condenses it into actionable things. It feels like a different space than we've been in before. And so how do you view that with the world that you're playing in, with having access to so much now? And yeah, like, is it different team structures? Like, how are you just.

[B]

Yeah, so one, I think now we can be in a safe space where it's like, guys, this isn't going to take our jobs. Remember, that was the first thing of, oh, no, I'm going to be out of a job as a marketer or PR professional or social professional. If anything, it's making us so much more efficient and more data driven. I think what it's going to force us to do is be focused. So you have to have your goals and objectives and exactly what you're trying to do. And you need to tail it very specifically or you're going to have too many options, too many decisions. Then you're kind of paralyzed where you'll be doing too much, your message will be too watered down because you're trying to capitalize on absolutely everything. Right. So you got all these things back from all of these channels. So if somebody's not focused, they're going to try to do all of them, and they probably won't do them well, because you don't have the team to execute on it. But if you're like, hey, here's my A, that needs to get done, followed by B, here's the priority, here's what we're looking in, the goals and you map them, My gosh, you can be a force to be reckoned with at that point, but you need the focus and the goals and the objectives and tying it to most likely revenue. Right. That's what we have to do in marketing. But I think that's where you have to have focused because there's so many things out there right now that you can use and it kind of distracts. Right. And it's great that now it's becoming more actionable. I think at first it felt like a brain dump, and now the fact that it can aggregate it and give you something that's. That's worth using and to move forward, but it still requires that. That human focus.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like having, like your good intuition to make decisions or taste like what I think is good, it's hard to put into words. No one can put into a prompt. It's just in my head and it's with, like, the wisdom I've acquired through all of my experiences. And so I think that piece will stay because you can get a lot of output from AI, but it still takes a human to be like, I like this one and I don't exactly know why, but that one's better. And so, like, having someone who has that behind the scenes, I think will always stay and yeah, kind of driving what the AI is doing and be able to actually take action from it.

[B]

Yeah, I think something too. I've noticed and I've talked to a lot of content professionals. They sometimes trash the content that comes out of AI, but mainly they're like, guys, we're training it to produce poor content. Like, the things we're putting in aren't great or the things that it's being trained on isn't the best. So it comes out with things that maybe feel super salesy or really injected with, like, way too many words and things that are unnecessary and random bold parts. And you're kind of like, this is a hodgepodge, like, what is this? So I think it's important to remember it's going to be trained on what we input. So the input needs to be strong in order for the output to be strong.

[A]

Yeah. Do you have any AI use cases that you're seeing in marketing that you think are really exciting right now or that you and your team are doing or just that you've seen peers doing?

[B]

Good question. At Pendulum, we use it a lot internally. You can build out full models or expand on your product roadmap in ways that I feel like you can't conceptualize at first and putting things out there and kind of first doing gut checks on different components. I will say you always want to work in a closed instance that is not being able to be trained on. So if you're at a company, don't start putting proprietary information in. That's a no. No. Yeah, but you can create really cool models. I mean, we launched a trend report in January and I think something that was awesome is our content team put together earned media value calculator. So everything already put in so that anybody can use it as just an extra asset. It's like, hey, it's okay if you don't buy from us or you don't need our platform, but hey, if you need to calculate this and this is something cool, you don't need to do calculus anymore because lord knows it's been a hot minute since we had to take that out. But yeah, so you can create so many cool derivative assets that are useful and that can be used by everyone. So I think that's where our team has had some fun with what we've been able to create and produce out there for customers and prospects.

[A]

That's cool. So are you listening to your customers when creating tools like that where you're like, so many people are asking us this or we want it for ourselves. Like, how do you think about coming up with tools, especially in this space we're in now of everyone can Vibe code. There's a bunch of lovable apps. They're just flying at me all the time where I'm like, okay, like, how do you know which you know what to actually ship and build versus you know, maybe I don't need a vibe coded tool for this specific thing.

[B]

So I would say anything customers want, we normally figure out how to build it within the product. So that's more that side. From a marketing standpoint, I think we're looking more to our ICPs and struggles they've had. And luckily, like, we are the ICP PR marketing professionals. So I'm always like, man, I would have loved to have this. So we're like, hey, create it. And then there's something as simple as just creating your brand book through AI so anyone who interacts with it can transform all copy into your tone of voice, into your, like, using it to instill Everything put through design work and make sure everything's aligned. That's been super helpful. That's something we use internally or with other vendors to make sure they're on point with our brand. So it's kind of like all the monotonous stuff that you used to have to do yourself or hire someone to train on. It's like, oh, this is beautiful. And now everyone can work in on the more strategic work. Like I don't need my content person sitting editing content for hours to make sure it's in our tone of voice. Like, come on, we're, we're passing and I guarantee they don't want to be doing that either. So it's nice when you can create those tools. You can create them so fast and they evolve. So you can say, you know, monitor this every X amount of days to see is it still up to date, do an audit of my channels and make sure we're still staying on tone of voice, those types of things to just do continuous audits to keep you on brand.

[A]

Yep, yep. I love it. Yeah. Allowing the robots to do the things that they're best at, then the humans can do the things they're best at and yeah, be way more efficient but also have a lot more fun is at least how I see it.

[B]

Definitely. Yeah. Agree.

[A]

Yeah. Something that I've been hearing a bit about is this concept of this AI org chart and having these AI agents owning entire orgs. And I'm going to be trying it with one of the, my, one of my companies. But it is interesting thinking about hiring of the future, questioning like do I actually need a human in that role or do I. Could I have a team of agents that then one human is overseeing and letting a lot of the more repetitive tasks and the brand, monitoring the content, adjusting all of these things happening and then just surfacing that in. You know, let's say it's social media, you've got a head of social media person, but then they have all these agents who are like giving them the content. Like overnight they wake up and then there's like 50 pieces of content, there's clips already pulled and it's just ready to be approved and it's already gone through all the different checks through, you know, brand and themes and the content that's matching to the calendar and all that. So I am wondering how this future is going to shape up of. Yeah, is there a world where it's less people but very efficient managing these AI agent teams?

[B]

So I think social media is a great example. So Every organization I've worked at, social media tends to be underfunded when it comes to resources, you tend to have one social media manager who has the weight of the world on them. I know for jobs I've been at, they're expected to post organically like three to five times a day and then interact with everything and do five different channels. Oh, and then launch a podcast or launch it and you're like one human. There's no way they can do all of this. But you can't get an extra headcount. They're like, guys, we're not going to have an extra headcount for social media still to this day. So I think this is where the AI agents, my gosh, it would make them feel like they have a team and they could take some of that pressure off their shoulders. It's done really well and you still have one headcount for that social media position. And they can slowly rise up. Right. Eventually they can be director, senior director, but they'll be able to accomplish so much more and not lose complete work, life balance or churn. I feel like social media managers are the thing that tends to churn the most because expectations are so high on them and it's almost like they're set up for failure to begin with. So I think AI agents will play a huge role in that realm for sure. The same with analyst work. There's a lot of different components where it can help in the underfunded resourced areas, for sure.

[A]

Yeah, that's such a good point of looking at what are the most. I mean, I've been at these different big companies too. And there's always different roles where you're like, why do you have so much work for one person and why can't you help me right now at the same time, like, I'd like you to help me. So it'd be an interesting task to go through and be like, who are the most underfunded teams or roles or spaces that could, you know, put some agents under them and then all of a sudden they're the most blossoming team out there because they have so much support.

[B]

Yeah, I look at too even demand generation. Right. Those teams tend to be lean and mean and I have never seen a group of individuals work harder to prove their worth to, you know, to build pipeline to get marketing source revenue. And so it's like, hey, if they had some agents under them just to help with the reporting, my gosh, just reporting can take weeks. Or manually going through data and making sure things are sourced correctly. When it comes to what did marketing influence versus source all of those components, it's like, ma', am, with a few agents under them, they can keep their heads above them, work on the components that they need to be there to work on, and it can filter through. So, yeah, I think marketing really in total needs, needs some agents to help out since they tend to be under resourced.

[A]

Yep. Yeah. Anything with reporting at this point, like, no human needs to ever report again. Like, you should just get the report and be like, thank you. I mean, we're doing that within mission of. Okay. We make these reports for our clients and our sponsors. And it was a lot of manual data pulling of, like, what are the downloads, perhaps? What are the views and what are people saying on LinkedIn? How are our guests sharing it all the details? But I'm like, why are we doing any of this? We could have an AI agent going and looking at all these platforms and then pulling the more like anecdotal things as well from the interviews and what they talked about and showing themes that are happening among our network of shows. Why would, like, one that would take one human a long time to get what I want, like all these, like, detailed, you know, pieces. But why. Why not just have the report show up once a week on our desk and can just look at it and be like, yep, approved. Okay, ship it.

[B]

Like, such a bad idea. Yeah, exactly. Oh, yeah, I agree.

[A]

Okay, so I want to zoom out a bit and ask this question. Do you think AI is net positive for humanity?

[B]

Ooh, that's a tough one. I think what's hard is sometimes I see things it can do, like the agentic AI and helping with the workforce and helping us do our jobs better. And I see so much opportunity and potential and so much light and positivity. And then I look at the mis and disinformation material and all of the deep fakes and the stuff we're seeing. You know, we're in a tough political climate right now. Things are very polarized and having all of these like, AI deep fakes is not helping. And I think it's creating even more of a demise amongst people. That makes me so sad because I'm like a big unity person. So I. Hold on. We'll have to. My earbud came out. We'll redo that part. Okay. So when it comes to AI, I think I've seen the amazing possibilities of it, like with the workforce and efficiency and things that can even do with. With medicine. Like, there is some great components but then at the same time, you look at the current political environment, right, and it's very polarizing. And I think you see things like deep fakes and misinformation and disinformation that's just causing a lot of hurt, a lot of fear in people. And so I'm still on the fence. I see how amazing it can be. But if it's put in the wrong hands and it's not right, with what is the Superman and that Superman Spider man quote, with great something comes great. With great power comes great responsibility. That should be the tagline for AI because it's like, guys, this could transform our world in an amazing way and help people or it can be used to divide us. So I look at what we're doing, like at Pendulum, and I feel very proud of what's being done with the work with them, with AI because it truly is advancing things. It's helping people, it's using data for good, whereas others maybe it's not. And so we'll see in the next three years if, if we rise or if we all burn, like, we'll, we'll find out, right? It's like we're, yeah, we're, we're moving fast towards it. I think there's really cool stuff happening and hopefully that's what triumphs.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, I, I'm gonna bet on humans and humanity to win. But yeah, it is, it's been interesting. I mean, even thinking of like all this stuff happening around, like the Epstein files, I don't know what's real. I keep seeing these fake images pop up and I'm like, whoa, that's totally wrong. And then someone's like, that's not real. I'm like, whoa, okay. Like, why? If there's a company out there, someone should be working on it where anything I'm browsing online, Instagram, anywhere I'm at, it needs to have like a filter where it's like, this is only, you know, 1%, maybe is true, or this is definitely a deep fake. Like, I, I think that's needed in the space that we're in right now is just a, some kind of filtering monitoring tool so that people don't see all these made up things and then be like, oh, this is true. Let me share it now. Like, maybe someone's working on it. I bet someone's working on it. I just don't know of it yet.

[B]

Tried. So I have seen things where you're supposed to report if it's. Yeah, right, someone's going to report this. Is AI generated? Like, you yourself, if you upload something AI generated, I'm like, the people that are making these fakes are not going to admit, yep, I did this. I'm even. I mean, I've seen tragedies, things where it showed. I thought there was a mass earthquake or I saw something and I texted my husband like, oh, my gosh, did you see this? And he's like, danielle, this isn't anywhere in the news. And then I was. I was like, I can't. I, like, I've been duped. I'm like, okay, I believe way too much. So now anything I see, I almost don't believe it. Which also, again, it goes back to social listening and social intelligence and consumers and what you're digesting and how much do you believe of what's out there? So if you're starting to get an audience that is only listening halfway because there's so much out there and you don't know what to believe, like, how do you even authentically build relationships with them now where they're jaded? Right. We're all kind of becoming jaded. So that's a new thing too in 2026 that we'll have to look at is they're going to build relationships with consumers. How do you do it to where they can trust you?

[A]

Yep. Yeah. Especially when I think about content now, too. It seems like there's been a shift. If I think about a couple years ago, there was so much conversation around, should I have one handle on Instagram? Should I have five? Founder brand, company brand. Like, lots of conversations around, brand building around one thing. But now when I look at a lot of different platforms, I'm like, consumers seem to just find a video, just one video. And like, you could be having all different, diverse types of content, but just find one, and that's all they need. And they're good with that. And they're not really looking for, like, who's the brand behind this? And is there a good brand theme behind, let's say, mission? Like, is this all business and tech content? Oh, no. You have, like, it doesn't seem like people care as much as. At least we were all talking about it a couple years ago of, like, there's only one good strategy and you've got to have separate channels for things. And if you're a founder brand, that's also got to be different than your company brand. It feels like a lot of things are just like, is that a good clip? Awesome. Okay, I'm done with that now. Let me Find another one off clip and it. Yeah. So what do you think about content like in where we're at now?

[B]

Yeah. So I remember and I don't know how many years ago, but remember when your Instagram feed had to be esthetically on brand and it needed to all look beautiful and like you'd look at these influencers and now it's, it looks a mess, but no one cares because no one goes to your feed and says, oh, I like the brand esthetic of their feed. It's like that's not a thing anymore. So I think there is still nuance in how much you put out, where to tease it. Right. So if you have your podcast on YouTube and it's a three hour deep dive, you know, you want to take small clips and tease it out on reels. So there is still pieces like that. Right. Where it makes sense to do different content. You're not going to upload something really long to a channel that doesn't engage in that type of stuff. But it is more about kind of the one hero and how to break it apart instead of completely different strategies on each. I think again, we don't have the resources for it. We don't have the time for it. And to your point, who's listening? If you invest in like that one strong, strong piece and then you make sure it's being heard in the formats they want and diving deeper into it, it's like you'll get so much more out of it. I've been at companies where the amount of content produced, you can't even stay up with it. You can't even read it all. It's like. And maybe that part of it was that SEO piece, but now it's more about. Yeah, value over quantity.

[A]

Yep. Oh, I love that. Yes, yes. Yeah, it is. It's funny where you're talking about the Instagram Looking nice. YouTube's the same thing. And it's funny in the past we've had sponsors who are like, whoa, you got your guys. Like, we want all. When we go to your, let's say marketing trends, I'm making this up. Your marketing trends channel. We want to make sure that every thumbnail looks exactly similar to our brand. Or, you know, I'm like, that's just. No one's going to our channel like that. That's not how it works. People are finding our shorts and they don't care how they found it. And then they end up in our channel that way. But they're still probably not just looking through the home Page wondering if everything looks like similar branding strategy. Just like, they don't care anymore. But it's. It's definitely an interesting transition. Trying to show especially bigger companies of, like, no one cares about that anymore.

[B]

Yeah, I know. Yep. And it's hard to rewrite that. Right. When you've been taught something for so long. It's hard to adapt and to change. And then there's some things that do need to stay consistent. Like, I'd say your tone of voice and your personality as a brand. Like if you are edgier or if it. But again, there's degrees. It doesn't always have to be. If you're punny on one channel, you don't have to keep the puns running on LinkedIn, like, but you. You can inject some of it.

[A]

Maybe they should actually just bring that. Bring it over. LinkedIn needs help.

[B]

So right now, too, I keep seeing, and I must have shifted my algorithm on LinkedIn, everybody calling out that most people write their posts with AI now, like, because they want to sound like thought leaders or they want to pull different pieces, and they keep comparing the difference, but nobody seems to be changing. They just keep doing it. So it's interesting that we're all saying, guys, we're all full of baloney on here. Like, we're all using the same. But yet it continues. I have been. I, like, I'm an offender. I have done it. Especially, you know, you're nursing a flu and you're like, I can't write this to sound decent. Can you just help me out? Like, I have brain fog. But, yeah, it's interesting that we all have identified it, but nobody is moving forward to. To change it. It feels.

[A]

Yep. I feel like on LinkedIn because it feels like a platform that's hard to, you know, really do well sometimes. But for me, what I've seen is just having the messy. Here's a video of me talking sometimes more personal things, like the more human content on LinkedIn. It feels like that's what people crave because everyone, like you said, gets on there. Like, I'm now the thought leader in AI agents, even though I have never actually been in it. I watched a YouTube video and here's my five takeaways for AI agents today. And I'm like, I don't know if I've learned that much from LinkedIn ever, really. Like, I can't think of one post that really hit home with me where I'm like, whoa, I am changing my actions based on this post. So I don't know, I'm thinking personal posts seem to be doing better and then it's drums up a lot more interest of like, who is this person and why is Stephanie, one second talking about marketing leaders and then she's talking about some spiritual things like who is she and why is she a burning man? And I need to know more. Feels like it gets more interest.

[B]

It's true. I think we need to break down that stigma of the professional network. When I. So I started doing videos as well and I was like, I'm not going to script these because you can tell when someone's reading a script. It's awful. And I, I don't do as many personal. I try to pick out trends or things I'm seeing as a marketing professional or like, hey, here's three quick tips if you want to do that. I did one on like GEO wins. If your execs on your back, like do these three things and it'll just give you a little lift before you get your strategy rolling. And I've noticed a huge shift. Like I'm like, oh, people are engaging because it's like, yeah, because you're a real person. And I think they do crave that on LinkedIn. And then they know, oh, they actually have a voice or they have something to say.

[A]

Yep, yep. I love it. Yeah. Actionable, transferable tips like that. Yes. Where it's like, you can quickly try it and be like, oh, it's not too hard and it's not just very high level vision type stuff. Always of like, here's where we're going over the next five years. Like, yeah, try these three things. And that's good. I like that. Okay, anything on. I know we're about to go into this. This is a break, by the way. We're gonna, we're gonna dive into. Next section is data. But I want to see is there anything in the first section which was all about GEO AI, what else do we talk about? AI agents.

[B]

Yeah, definitely. So marketers are always under pressure to stay up to date with everything going on. So best example, and we've talked about AI quite a bit, is the AI boom that happened roughly three years ago. All of a sudden tech companies, I think they were all told like, AI needs to be on everything. So there was kind of this AI washing moment and it was kind of a part of brand strategy. Right. But it was like, no, no, our brand is AI driven. Like we're technologically there, we're innovative, we're this. But it wasn't taking a step Back, like, hold on, who are we marketing to? Where are we playing? How are our competitors positioning ourselves? How do we want to position ourselves? And how do we take a different approach and not just quickly slap AI on everything and say, well, that's always been a part of our roadmap. So things are done hastily. And again, it's because there's always a lot of pressure internally and externally to make sure you're showing up in the way you should be if your competitors are all moving as fast as you. But really, I think they're all just trying to pay, catch up and looking at each other's things and then they all kind of sound the same. So what I've done since I think I implemented this, I don't know, oh my gosh, maybe eight years ago. So when I first did brand strategy work, it's very subjective. It was kind of like, hey, audit the website, look at some social channels, get a feel, get a vibe of the competitors of the brand and then figure out who you should be. But when one person is just doing that and it's at such a surface level, it felt like, can we really go off of this? And it did feel more like going on a whim or going on what I just thought, rather than putting data behind it. So I can't coin that. I built this framework, I saw this framework done for something else, and then I said, I can apply this to brand strategy and I think it'll go over a lot better. So what I did is I took our brand, the brand that I was at, and at that time, eight competitors, I would say anywhere from five to 10 over that is a bit overkill. And I was like, I'm going to manually look at 300 unique data points that are external communications for each of these to see what the personality is, what the tone of voice is, maybe what the value proposition is, what they're saying their core benefit is. So I literally manually would go to the website and say, I'm going to pick 50 line items that are like main headlines and main areas, and then the LinkedIn and then the Instagram and then press releases and then ads. So trying to get a really well rounded data set of anything they put out there externally that people could freely look at to get an interpretation of who that brand is and who they're trying to market to. So after doing that manually, and again, this was before the age of ChatGPT and all of those components, then I would put them through spider chart analysis and say, how many times did this come out and map them. And what was really cool to see is right away, visually, you would see where everybody's playing, where there's huge holes, and maybe there's huge holes for a reason. It's like, oh, no one's touching this area because this isn't a good area to play in. Or it was like, hey, I think this is where we have the tech or we have the value prop. Why aren't we going here? And then you also validate it through VOC work or, you know, talking to clients and seeing and making sure and validating. There's a gap. And from that it creates a very successful blueprint for what you need to do to achieve a really strong brand strategy initiative. And it was really cool. So the first time I did it, I'm like, is this gonna work? And then it did. And then I did it again and again and I was like, okay, it didn't matter if I was B2C. Didn't matter if I was B2B. Didn't matter. Startup corporation. It helped just bring a level of data and objectivity to it because you're not just being like, oh, this is a cool modern vibe. And you're like, that's not. That doesn't work. So I've tried to implement that process every time I'm doing something like this, whether it's value proposition work or brand strategy. And again, it just brings that level of of data to it. And there's always going to be a level of subjectivity. But what you can do is find, hey, what are the brand archetypes? What are the core personality traits? So then you have kind of a rubric to go off of. And you're not just inventing things in your head. And I mean, Ideally, you have three people running it at the same time. Now introduce AI right? And LLMs. I thought I was under the impression this was going to speed up my work. I was so excited. And unfortunately, I haven't cracked the code of having it help yet. I noticed in the analysis it kind of just rephrased words that were already used. Sounds really salesy. And it almost felt like the LLM was just pitching it back to me. I'm like, this isn't what I'm looking for. So I thought, well, maybe I can use it just to do the math and help me with the spider charts. I actually did the math wrong. It didn't add the columns correctly. And I noticed it towards the end. I'm like, wait a minute, I had way more data points. Why is the number. And then I even asked it. It's almost like I got into a real serious conversation with ChatGPT and I was like, why did you delete this line? And it was just like, oh. I decided to take a different approach and felt like it literally said it, just left it out. I was like, okay, so lesson learned. Hopefully those get better. But yeah, it's a highly manual process right now and it takes time. But the outputs are so strong and so much more strategic and they help align everyone. Right. When you display the facts to everyone, no one can say, oh, we should pick green over blue because green's a cooler color. There's, there's areas you can back it up, which is, which is always important.

[A]

Yeah, I love that. So what are maybe some of the data points that you're collecting that most other marketers miss? Brand marketers, they wouldn't think to look at at that data point when thinking of building the brand strategy?

[B]

Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's important to go into their ads. So like LinkedIn you can see what ads are they running like so you forget how they're marketing it out. And it's interesting to see the different types of ads they're running for different things. You can tell they're AB testing or you can tell like the tone of voice shifts a little bit and there's not tons of those. I would say also doing a Google and seeing what paid third party sponsorships they've done. So maybe if they did a co article with PR week, what are they writing it on? Those are the things you don't think of because they're only the owned, but those are other ways they're trying to infiltrate and get their message out of there. So making sure you're accounting for those paid things, not just their website and just their owned channels.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's smart. Yeah, I didn't think about that because I'm about to be doing partnering with a vendor, but brand strategy work for this other company that I'm working with and I'm think like I was going to challenge him with my army of AI agents and there's, there's like brand strategy skills that you can download. Like there's already one out there, there's one that looks at YouTube and so I was going to do that and then come up with something and then see what he comes up with and in a very friendly, loving way. But I just want to see like what's possible now with having all these agents go out there. But I Am getting intel from you of, okay, look at their ads, look at how they're showing up on third party places. That's a good one. I didn't think of.

[B]

Yeah, and I think too brand strategy. It's not a bad thing to hire an agency to conduct the work and then also do it at the same time internally. I know everyone would be like, what, you're going to waste all that time? But again, it can be highly subjective and I have seen, I've contracted agencies and the work that comes back isn't revolutionary or it feels like it hasn't moved things in the direction you want it to. And it's not a knock on agencies. It's just, you know, your brand is your baby. There's a lot of different approaches. I would say give the, give the data driven approach a try and see. See what comes out the other side.

[A]

Yep, yep, same. Can you give an example of when the data showed something totally different from what your team thought? Yeah.

[B]

So I was at a brand and I think they assumed their brand was just awful. They were like, we're gonna show up in the worst way. And they were like, I can't wait to see this. And it was actually a pleasant surprise. But it was like, hey guys, we're actually not as far behind as we think. So so many times if you've been at a brand or started a brand and you're in it for a long time, you kind of go blind to how great your brand might be or the things that you guys do do well. And I see this all the time too, even with the brand style. Right. If you have a brand color, let's just say it's yellow. After, you know, a few years, you're like, oh, our yellow is the most awful thing in the world. I'm sure Coca Cola has gotten, you know, annoyed by their red, but they don't change it because it has a lot of brand equity there. So I think the findings of it was like, hey guys, we're not all the way down here, we're actually up here now. It was at a point where it was kind of like, hey, we're not pushing things and being innovative and no one sees us there. We're kind of middle of the road. But that's a great place to be because you don't have to play catch up now. You can go higher. But we could have been so much lower. And I think it was a very pleasant surprise, but people were kind of shocked to notice. We also ran a brand equity report to see Are we a top of mind solution? Are we only an associated solution where if our name is thrown in the ring, then people know who we are? And that was also eye opening because we saw, hey, again, we're not as bad as we think we are. So. And some brands might be, but I think it's good to remember when you're sitting in the seat for a long time, you get fatigue of your own brand. That's normal. Same with the message. If you're like, our tagline's been the same for years. Yeah, so has Nike's and it's paid off pretty well. So you don't always have to change things just because you've been there a long time and you're sick of hearing it. Most consumers haven't heard of it.

[A]

Yeah, that's such a good reminder. Especially if you know yourself like me, where I'm like, I get bored easily. You're like, oh, change it. It's lame. That is so 2025. That's a good reminder that most people are not getting bored of, you know, your brand and how you're portraying yourself online. That's good.

[B]

But that's where there's social, right? You can have fun on social. So that's where change it up, do fun little miniseries. And that's where the creative side of you can, can play and dabble and get that fulfillment. I'm always like, the brand is behind bars and can't be touched. But on social, like, have a good time, try some new cool things out. But it's like, guys, we don't need to change the corporate template again.

[A]

Yep. Yes. So now that we're talking about social, I'd love to hear, if you were to build a social team from scratch today, what job roles would you be hiring for and why?

[B]

Oh, that's a good one. I think there needs to be a shift towards a higher level, like senior social media person. So I would love to have a social media director because they are going to be in charge of YouTube, a potential podcast, Reddit, now Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn. Like that is all so many different components. I would also say you need a social strategist under them that understand social listening and social intelligence. So that's a core piece that sometimes bobs around in a marketing department, sometimes they live with an analyst team, sometimes they're under pr. So making sure you have that strategist that understands the data and can inform strategy and then, man, I think social media is always in charge of creative and it's like Guys, social media managers are not graphic designers. And if you're looking to put out really cool content, yes, they can be great in canva. But having a designated designer for social that also can do video and motion graphics, now, you can really rev things up. Now, obviously it depends on if you're in B2B or B2C and, and what your strategies are and if you're starting small and growing. But if you can have that upper level person to run strategy, you can have an analyst and you can have a designer who can also do video. Like, now you're a force to be reckoned with and you can start growing much faster. I think so many of them have to grow smaller just because they don't have the resources.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, it's. That's also a good reminder. I have, I have been guilty of hiring social people and be like, why are your video clips so terrible? Yeah, like, oh, wait, you. Yeah, that's not your job. Okay, got it.

[B]

Self taught. Self taught.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's good. Good tips. Where do you think that brands are going wrong with how they run social? Like, when you look around, especially let's say in the B2B space, what do you see happening?

[B]

So one thing I'm not a fan of and I do support the. I'll start over because these things keep falling out of my ears. Okay. One thing, I definitely appreciate the effort that goes in, but I think when B2B try to jump on, like the trendy tiktoks, they just, I think they give the ick. I think when you see these, these people in their business suits and they're dancing and going in between each other's legs, like all this stuff, you're like, oh my gosh. It's like my dad trying to like, it's. It's not good. It's not good. Yeah. So I, I appreciate the effort and the willingness to put themselves out there. I don't think that's what's gonna give the next demo request. And I think there is other ways you can play into trends without it coming across just. Oh, gosh, very cringy. Yeah, I don't, I don't think it's needed. I don't think it's needed.

[A]

Nope. I do agree with that. Yes. I have seen those too. So if I'm thinking, you know, many of these B2B brands, some of them, they're kind of starting from scratch. So if you were starting from scratch today, what social platforms would you be investing in?

[B]

If I'm B2B. It's going to be LinkedIn. I think that's LinkedIn and TikTok. Actually, I would not invest right away in Instagram and that's kind of controversial. I think a lot of people are like, you need to be on Instagram. I think young working professionals are actually leaning on TikTok for some professional advice and quick hacks and pieces. So that's where you can give really good tidbits of learning how to do something. Hey, here's how to break down this, this and this at your job, stuff like that. It can be easily surfaced and you can get a very big reach for. And even if you want to boost it, it's not a lot of money to do so. So I would say TikTok is great for that. And then LinkedIn, you have to build your credibility as a brand and you don't have to do it the sterile way. You don't have to have the boring posts that are like, I'm thrilled to announce that, like, no one needs to see that. But LinkedIn can still be extremely valuable if it's done in the right way. And it's mixing up the type of content I know LinkedIn introduced to what, like, six months ago, their real format, much like Instagram reels. So dabbling with those things and not being afraid to make some mistakes, I think it's consistency is key and having a voice. So I would start with those two. I wish I could say start with YouTube, because YouTube is huge. Just the resources it is, the production of it and remaining consistent. If you're trying to post one video a week, I've seen so many start and it just trickles out and then it's one a month and then it's once a quarter and then it's like, oh, here, quick, here's three videos and then there's none. It just. You have to have consistency.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. On LinkedIn, I haven't seen too many brands doing it well yet. I mean, I will say there's a cybersecurity company that I had on the show Torque, and we had their CMO Don Jeter on, and their content is hilarious. They sponsor like Grave Digger and they've got this media intern that they create content with and it's just really ridiculous. But it's also been driving pipeline in a big way for them. So that's one company that I'm like, I don't care about cyber security, but I will follow your content on LinkedIn because it's so funny and Ridiculous. And I can see why it's shaking up the cyber industry in the way that it is. So. But I haven't seen that many brands that I'm like, okay, this is. This is pretty good. So if you have any, send them to me. I want to follow them and see what their marketing team is up to.

[B]

Yeah. And I think, too, don't be afraid to go outside the box. So I have an example. This is B2C. But they. They changed the way they were doing things. So there was a local car dealership, actually where I am, and car dealerships on social media, not great. You know, especially local ones, not great. And this young social media manager decided to create kind of like the Office, but it was called the dealership. And they made everybody super awkward and they did the interview style just like it, and it took off. So it got millions and millions of views. It blew up everywhere. People were going just to buy cars there to meet the cast of the show. And I believe they're signed and they're going to get a show on Netflix now of like, the. Which is amazing. But they took something and they were like, we're going to do this. They came out with an episode. I don't know if it was every week. Maybe first it was every month. And they stuck to it. And it was such a different idea, but it was consistent, they marketed it effectively. So it's like if you have an idea even on LinkedIn, and it's like, put it together, do it well, and invest in it for at least three months. So I think everybody also tries something and if right away they don't get engagement, they shy away. So it's like, no, like, really put the effort in to do it for three full months and see how it's grown and then make a decision. Because one week, two week, even a month, it's not enough. Because, as we said, there's so much noise out there. Right. The odds of the right people seeing it and seeing it more than once. So, yeah, it's consistency and, yeah, take a chance, do something cool.

[A]

Yep. I love that. Okay, last question. I like to round out the interview with. What's your one piece of advice for marketing leaders in 2026?

[B]

I think marketing today has, I think, I would argue, sometimes even more pressure than sales to prove their worth, prove their numbers. It's a good thing that now we can measure things and show how we're tracking. But I think what marketing leaders need to do is open the doors and let people in on the journey of what it takes to get there. I think so many times it's just the end report or just the end product. And so nobody understands everything that goes on in between. And I'm a big believer at taking people along for the journey, whether it's brand strategy, whether it's, you know, opening a new channel or, or just a new strategy or launching a certain type of campaign. If everyone doesn't understand in your organization why it's happening, it's hard for them to get on board and have a reason to believe. And if you as a marketing department can get sales behind you and everyone else behind you, your efforts will be so, so much better received and it'll be more successful. Whereas if you're operating in this silo and it's like, oh, marketing's doing another one of those campaigns and you're not really talking to people and you're always at odds, it's like you're, you're never going to have that support. So it's like if the whole company can be behind it and believe in it, you can do so much more. So I think your question was probably intended for what can you do externally, right. As a marketing leader, But I think a lot of it has to do with the internals of how your organization works. And if you want to have a respected seat at the table and have everyone on board and achieve your goals, it's like you have to let them in. They need to understand it and you need to explain why they should have a reason to believe in what you're doing.

[A]

I love that. Great answer. Okay, I want to. Yeah. So good. I want to shift to the lightning round. So this is where I ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer.

[B]

Okay, let's do it.

[A]

Ready?

[B]

Okay, I'm ready.

[A]

Good, good. Okay, deep breath, deep breath. Where do you get your inspiration from?

[B]

A lot of it is actually from my 12 year old daughter. The things she comes out with. I'm like, what is that? Is that new? And I'm like, huh, I could apply that. So, yeah, my 12 year old.

[A]

Oh my gosh, that's so good. I was just hanging around a bunch of teenagers with my friends over the weekend and they kept saying all these words and I'm like, I'm learning so much. Like, they're like, oh, that's so chopped. I'm like, chopped? What's that?

[B]

That show? That show in the Food Network.

[A]

No, I know. I was like, what is that? And they're like, it means ugly, hideous. I'm like, oh, got it. Okay. So, so helpful being around the younger generation and being like, is this something I want to learn or unlearn? But yeah, exactly. So good. What's one skill that you think will be vitally important for the next generation to develop?

[B]

People skills? I think with remote environments and how things have shifted with how we work, like, I work remote. It's getting harder and harder for people to present in person, make authentic connections in person. And I'm actually, like, scared for the generations under us that haven't had to be in an environment where they need to socially interact, especially in a business environment. I mean, I literally am like a hermit in my home office and I Sometimes you're like, oh, the days where you weren't in office and interacting, you know, different things transpired and cool ideas came about. So I think they're going to need to know how to act, interact with people professionally in a social environment.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, I totally agree. If you weren't in marketing, what would you be doing

[B]

something with? Health and wellness. So I'm a big wellness nut. I'm also like, a little low key. Woo woo. Like, I love like, all that, like, homeopathic stuff.

[A]

Oh, I love it.

[B]

Okay. I was like, this isn't going to be well received.

[A]

I'm not a little bit. Woo woo. I'm like out there. I'm far gone.

[B]

Okay, good. So, yeah, we'll talk after. But yeah, I think as a career mom, I've dealt with struggles in mental health and I've seen a lot of other women do the same. And I think there's so many things out there that are not easily accessible. So it's kind of like one of my side passions. But if I could, you know, have all the free time in the world, I would love to explore just how to help women thrive more in the working environment.

[A]

I love that. Yes, you and I definitely should chat. And I can tell you more about how I'm thinking about that space too.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

Okay, all right, last one. Who is a marketing leader or great business thinker that we should have on this podcast.

[B]

Yes. So. So there's one woman who I think is incredible. I don't think she's a CMO and I don't know if she's a CEO. So her name is Emma Grady. So she helped found Skims and Good American and a number of other huge brands. And she is like the brains. She is like a multimillionaire and she is so smart. I would love to pick her brain. We actually, she was a candidate to be at a summit that we were hosting at another organization. And just she is jam packed of knowledge. I would love to get just 20 minutes with her to pick her brain on how she's done what she's done. Yeah, incredible.

[A]

All right, so we got to get her. Brannon put in the notes and then when she. If we book her, I'll be like, Daniela, what questions do you have? Let's get them in the interview.

[B]

Yes. Love it. I will fly wherever you are located. I will be there as the mic person. Just.

[A]

Okay. Doing a camera will be like it's upside down. Daniela. But just fine. She's interning. Oh, Daniela, this is amazing. Thank you for coming on Marketing Trends. Where can our listeners, our viewers, find out more about you and what you're up to?

[B]

Yeah, definitely. You can follow me on LinkedIn. My handle is just Daniella Samson. And yeah, reach out dm Interact. I love it. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

[A]

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