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Marketing Trends
CMOs Are Hiring Fiverr Freelancers? Find out why.
01:03:55
When everyone has access to the same AI tools, what separates the great from the forgettable is the human behind the screen.
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- [00:00]
A
What is the weirdest freelancer request that you've seen that just made you stop and go? People pay for this.
- [00:06]
B
In the early days of Fiverr, people would buy spells or magic spells or pay for hugs. But today, as we've evolved into a destination that is way more business oriented, we see other things that are still interesting but less weird. We had an Harvard graduate that was helping people find their family tree, or a senior executive from a fashion brand that was offering his color matching skills and capabilities for styling. We meet a lot of business owners who use our platform for so many things. And almost in every conversation, you would hear people say, I do so much on Fiverr. I do everything on Fiverr. But they feel that they're outsmarting the system, but they wouldn't want to share the freelancer they found. It's those gems in the rough that they found. They're not gonna share it with anybody.
- [00:55]
A
Yeah, no. I've literally been in this position where I'm. Oh, you wan to know who made my assets every year? No. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Marketing Trends. This is your Host, Stephanie Postols, CEO and founder of Mission.org and relevant today. I am so excited because we have Shiri Hellman, the VP of global brand communications at Fiverr. Fiverr. I'm sure the company that everyone listening, you know it, you love it. I know for me, this is a company that really helped me start. Start my startup career. And now I'm watching enterprise brands hire from Fiverr. So I'm super excited. Shiri, welcome to the show.
- [01:32]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [01:33]
A
Yeah, I'm super stoked. When I saw you guys come through my email, I'm like, oh, my gosh. I have so many personal stories that I will have to hold back on of. Just, like, how you really did influence starting Mission, how many freelancers I've hired from Fiverr. But I will save all my personal stories till the end because I want to first start with something fun. If you're ready to start off in that way.
- [01:53]
B
Always.
- [01:53]
A
Okay, so before we get into some of your amazing marketing campaigns and all the trends that you're seeing in the industry and what CMOs are looking to hire, I want to start with something fun. I want to ask you, I mean, I know that Fiverr sees everything, so I want to ask you, what is the weirdest freelancer request that you've seen that just made you stop and go, like, what? Actually, people pay for this. Like, people actually pay for this. What is it?
- [02:17]
B
All right, so in the early days of Fiverr, when Fiverr just started, there were a lot of weird stuff that people would buy. For example, people would buy spells or magic spells or pay for. Pay for hugs. But today, as we've evolved into a destination that is way more business oriented, we see other things that are still interesting, but I guess let's weird. We had an Howard graduate in genealogy that was helping people find their family tree, or a senior executive from a fashion brand that was offering his color matching skills and capabilities for styling. And we also, you know, sometimes we do those kind of limited editions where we partner with, you know, recently people like Martha Stewart that people would come and get her business advice and things like that.
- [03:18]
A
Wow.
- [03:19]
B
Yeah, that was fun when we did that. So we do that. Even Rob Genoff was once in a limited edition of Fiverr for design. So this is, again, I can't say it's weird, but it's definitely unique.
- [03:32]
A
Yeah, definitely things that people don't know about. I mean, Martha Stewart being able to tap into her on the platform. That's pretty good.
- [03:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was very dope.
- [03:39]
A
Wow, that's. So that really does show the scope of Fiverr and what people are like. I'm going to go on there and find anything I want, which is pretty powerful. Okay. So I want to get into just right off the bat about campaigns that you all have had at Fiverr, because I was looking at some of the stuff that you all have done, and it's fun and edgy and funny and just feels very cutting edge. So I wanted to start off there with what have been some of your favorite campaigns that you all have been running at Fiverr?
- [04:07]
B
Oh, it's like all my songs, it's hard to choose, I think, you know, obviously now I'm in love with the latest one that we did, which was created by Fiverr Freelancers that are a duo called Too short for Modeling created. There are AI directors and basically our internal team came up to them with the creative idea to create, using VO3 and other AI tools, a video about a character that is challenging. The idea that him and everything around him was created by fiber freelancers using AI. And then because he challenges them to prove that they have the power to do everything, they kind of punish him in very different, funny ways across the video until he kind of like, you know, submit to the idea that those two Fiverr freelancers has the power to create whatever they want and how they want to.
- [05:09]
A
Wow, that's. That's good. So these are Fiverr freelancers. That made this. I know when I watched it earlier today, I was like, wow, this is really good. I thought you all made it. But then when I heard your freelancers made it, I'm like, that's even better marketing. So, like, how did this happen?
- [05:23]
B
I guess for Fiverr, there is no, like, you or freelancers, in a sense, because we do have our amazing, amazing internal team, creative and design and content, but everything we do is always in together with that community. So in every project we do, we always tap into different freelancers based on their skills and our needs, and we work together with them to make, you know, to make it happen. So in this case, our creative team came up with a concept and the creative idea and the script. And then we reached out to more than one directors that we have on the platform, and they, like, very similar to, like, a regular creative process. Everybody pitched their own kind of, like, treatment, and then we decided to go with these two freelancers, and they did the whole creation.
- [06:12]
A
Wow. Do you all have a secret stash of freelancers where you're like, these are ours. Y' all can't have them?
- [06:18]
B
That's one of the funniest things that. That. And it's so true. It's such a true insight, because it's true also for businesses. They are. We meet a lot of business owners who use our platform for so many things. And almost in every conversation, you would hear people say, I do so much on Fiverr. I do everything on Fiverr. But they wouldn't want to. They feel that they're kind of outsmarting the system, but they wouldn't want to share the freelancer they found. It's like those gems in the rough that they found. No, they're not going to share it with anybody, which is true. On the other hand, they still like to take pride in the fact that they did do it on Fiverr, and they did find a freelancer to do stuff that usually they would probably need a bigger agency or something like that. So it's always like, on one hand you want to brag, on the other hand, you don't want to share.
- [07:10]
A
Yeah, no. I've literally been in this position where I'm like, oh, you want to know who made my assets every year? No. Okay. But I do want to give you business. Oh, I want to give you more business. I can't. So, yeah, it's always a. An interesting thing with freelancers and contractors. So when you're. I mean, you have access, like all of us to all these freelancers, are there Any special training techniques that you give your team of how to find a really good one or any tips that, like, I wouldn't think about when I'm trying to find a really great freelancer.
- [07:40]
B
Look, I think we have, because we have such a huge range of professionals and you do have, you know, different types of skills. We have almost 800 categories on the platform of different digital services. You know, there are different tiers of, of professional freelancers. We have our pro tier, Fiverr Pro, which are all freelancer that was like going through a. A dedicated vetting process that is more. Way more rigorous. Usually they will also be probably more expensive. They do more complex stuff. So we've with the time we've got to know, you know, we have to know those kind of. To create our own kind of a crew of freelancers that we tap into them. But we also like to find those new ones, you know, the emerging talents that are just so creative, but they're young and Fiverr is their like, starting point. So it's always looking at the top and then looking for like the new ones who just joined, who is in the new category, and. And we just give them work and if we're happy, we go live with it.
- [08:49]
A
Yeah. Okay, so you're looking for new people who just joined. Maybe proof of work, I assume is like, what is your portfolio? And maybe they already have a rating or not even that. You don't even need ratings.
- [09:00]
B
No, of course they have rating. Look, Fiverr's whole essence is the, the ability to match the right freelancer to the right task or the right project you need. So the whole brain behind Fiverr is this algorithm that knows how to rank the freelance standard that we have in the right way, based on their reviews, based on the way they communicate with customers, with their clients. We basically take all the data that we have and we have massive amounts of data on each of our freelancers and their interaction with the buyers, how happy they're their customers, who are the clients work. And based on that, we, you know, the whole algorithm is based on that and how to promote the. The freelancers that are more skilled or more or have better deliverables.
- [09:52]
A
I didn't know that, that you were using that much data to actually show people.
- [09:55]
B
To me, it's all based on data.
- [09:57]
A
Yeah. Wow.
- [09:58]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:59]
A
Okay, so I want to get into how you all think of your creative ideas. So we mentioned the first, you know, the most recent campaign that you had, but you've also had campaigns around a singing avocado, rom com, and you've had musicals on LinkedIn and, like, the things that you are doing. And I look at a lot of campaigns all the time. It feels like, like I said, you guys are pushing the edges, you're taking some risks. Uh, you really know how to lean into humor really well, but in a way that, like, centers around the Fiverr brand in such a beautiful way, where I'm more inspired, more excited. But get the point that what you're trying to show me what. Where I can see myself as the hero in a lot of these campaigns in the story. So I. I heard already that, you know, your. Your most recent one was more using Fiverr people to pitch ideas to you. But I think when we talked last time, you said that a lot of your own team is creating these ideas as well and then pulling in some freelancers. So take me into the room of how are you coming up with these very interesting, hilarious ideas?
- [10:57]
B
Look, it. Everything starts obviously with a strategy, right? And as Fiverr is, the essence of Fiverr is to change the way the world works together. And with AI coming into our lives, the world of work is changing, and Fiverr is evolving with it. And so if you look backwards, you know, when ChatGPT came into our life, it landed on everybody's computer for free. And suddenly every person, every business in the world has access to the most advanced technology. Every AI tool is somewhat free or affordable. And we're in a situation that it's like, if I take the analogy, every business has the best, most advanced Formula one racing car. So suddenly, the driver is what makes the difference, and the human talent is the driver. So the human talent is that competitive edge. Because if everybody has access to the technology, you need the right professional to be able to leverage the technology and give you the outcomes you need to sustain your business or to outperform the competition. This is the overarching thinking and the overarching messaging that we have across the board. Then we tackle every based on the conversation that is happening. It's changing constantly in the world of work. We're choosing what is the kind of the topic or the world we want to lean into that is currently what people are interested in. Right? So if I go backwards, for example, if I take, like, nobody cares, right, when we launched this video, it was when Most of the AI tools of video creation started, VO, and everybody was trying different things and posting on LinkedIn. What kind of tools did they use to create this scene or that scene? And then we decided to take all of these memes and repetitive Things that we started seeing and saying, this is all great, it's amazing and to have this musical about it. But if you want to get true, remarkable results, you need the human talent, you need the professional to be able to leverage. If you take the avocado ad on bytecoding. Right. This is a term that was coined like in March by you guys, right? No, Vive. Coding was coined by the co founder of OpenAI.
- [13:31]
A
Okay, glad I didn't. I just was about to start a whole rumor that would have been a big problem. So yeah, I don't want to take.
- [13:36]
B
Any credits for that. No way. He said that term in the sense of with this all new no code apps or platforms that you can just give in to the vibe and even forget that the code is there. But that sparked a whole conversation about vibe coding and what is vibe coding and the rise of all those no coded platforms and Cursor and lovable and base 44 and everything is happening. And you know how you say there's the saying of like, never fall in love with your own ideas. We realized that there's no better time to fall in love with your own ideas because now you can create your own ideas yourself. Yeah. But with the reality also when you have a complex idea or when you are not a professional. And you know, this all might change with time because we've seen those platforms getting evolved and you know, every day at that time when we launched this campaign, we realized that even if I have the most amazing idea and I tried it myself, you know, I had to sit here for an app, which I'll tell you about later because I'm sure it's going to be groundbreaking. I was trying to create it myself, but then I realized that there's certain things that I don't know how to do. I need a professional to help me do them. Whether it's like API related or, or sometimes that you. I do need to understand the code and I'm not a developer, so I don't know that you actually do need a professional to help you bring your idea to life and also to market your idea. Like when they're. When everybody the same analogy. When everybody can now create endless products. Now the competition is hard and you need someone to help you push it and market it, which is another skill. So this is kind of where the. That was kind of like the. The strategy and thinking behind the avocado. And we chose the avocado because. Come on. Avocados, right? I don't understand.
- [15:24]
A
Is that how it started? Someone Just came in, like, come on.
- [15:27]
B
Saw. We saw on Social that there's, like a rise of all those videos of people are checking, like, watermelons and avocados if they're ripe, if they're not. There was. There was this period of time, but also I thought to myself, like, how come. How come avocados are so, you know, emotional? Like, people feel stuff to avocado. Like, you don't feel the same thing to your cucumber. Right. You know, it's like. But. But avocados is like a thing. And we. We realize that this already sparks some emotion. That's why we chose the avocado. And the idea of. Of. Of creating an app that can tell if an avocado is right. So. So that was that. And now the latest Gary ad. It was also after Veo came out to the world, VO3, and you started seeing a lot of ads, there was this kind of the super bowl ad. And we realized that it's a great way to showcase the talent that we have on the platform by just letting them create. And I think the level of production that this commercial has is, you know, it's astonishing to think how, you know, these two guys together with our team, again, if you think about the, you know, the time it took and the. Obviously, the cost, it's unmatchable to.
- [16:48]
A
How long did it take, by the way?
- [16:49]
B
It took, like, about a month, I think four weeks. Wow. Because, again, because it speaks to, you know, to the level of production value that you want to get out of these tools, right? That if, you know, to shoot something like that or to create something like that on an offline way would have cost probably 10 times more, if not more, and production would have been, I don't know, probably three months.
- [17:21]
A
Yep. Yep. Man. Yeah. We will definitely link this up along with everything we're mentioning so people can watch it, and we'll probably even put it into the videos as well. But, I mean, it sounds like you guys. Well, you are. You're launching things very quickly, I would say. And so were there any campaigns that you were very nervous to launch? You're like, we're pushing this too far. This. I don't know if it's going to resonate. Is there anything that was just a little bit too edgy? And then when it landed, you're like, oh, okay. Glad I trusted.
- [17:47]
B
You know, you always have those thoughts, but it's like, you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. I think the fact that we are Always taking into account that it's gonna suck, it's just not gonna work. And we like to take risks. And I think also it's, you know, even when we're being edgy with our language, like it's. We never try to just, you know, poke things or for the sake of, you know, of making noise or for the sake of, you know, just being loud. I think every time we do something that is a bit edgy or might consider to be a bit edgy, always rooted in like true insight and something that people truly feel. So then it kind of lowers the risk because people identify with those things and. Yeah. And you know, sometimes we also do mistakes and sometimes we do things that are not great and good thing that you don't know about them because they weren't that successful.
- [18:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Have you always been able to take risks throughout your career? Has this been something that you've sought out when you have found new roles?
- [18:59]
B
I think it's something that I fully adopted in the previous company I worked for because it was very rooted in the culture. And I think part of the reason that I love Fiverr so much and I wanted to join Fiverr is that it's also very rooted in the culture of Fiverr in the sense that, you know, we, we do work in this kind of startup mode in the sense that you need to do things and you to try things and the possibility of failing is there and you move on. Okay. And you take big swings. And I think business courage is one of the most important things to have. If you want to succeed, especially in times like the times we live in today, that everything is changing constantly, then you need to take big bets. And you know, with big bets sometimes come, you know, epic failures. Actually just I think it was like a couple of months ago that we did a what you call a fuck up night in the company.
- [20:07]
A
Oh, amazing. Tell me more about this.
- [20:09]
B
It's a format. It's an existing, it's a known format that senior leaders go on stage in front of the whole company and share their biggest fuck ups from the career. And it's about glorifying and I think those, the bigger the fuck up is speaks to your courage and the business courage you had when you dived into it.
- [20:28]
A
Yep, yep. I love that. I had on the CMO of Synopsys and she was like, if you're not having big fuck ups, then you are not trying hard enough. You're not taking big enough risks. Like you should try harder. I'm like oh, ah, I like that. Try harder. I love it. Were there any like big mess ups that people had that you really liked hearing about that, you know, were inspiring to you or surprising or any in your own career where you're like, I had a huge one during this time period and it was like the best thing that ever happened to me because I learned so much.
- [20:57]
B
Yeah, of course. I was definitely a participant in this because I did have like, you know, one of the biggest epic failures I had was that I ran fast and with you know, a seven figure production campaign that I was sure is going to be nailing it. And I convinced everybody that it's going to be the biggest thing in the world. And it was, you know, a very strategic time for the company I worked for back then, which is so distrust. And we were just acquired by PepsiCo. And you know, it was kind of like in between the announcement to the actual acquisition. So everything we did was about kind of like to prove who we are. And the campaign was an utter failure. It just didn't work. And I guess the biggest learning I had then is ties into. I had a title of a book called Marketeers are from Mars. Consumers are from New Jersey. Oh, that's good because it's true. And it was kind of like a wake up call. And this is something that I always have in my head and something I keep telling my team all the time. Like we marketeers have a tendency to speak our own language, live in our own world. We think that everything that we care about, people care about, which is just not true. People don't care about your, you know, the message you want to deliver as a brand. They care if there's going to be parking, if they're going to have to wait in line or, you know, they have other troubles. So I think having this constantly in the back of my mind and every time we look at, you know, when we think about new creative directions or campaigns, I think it's very helpful.
- [22:52]
A
This is good. So how do you get your team in this mindset? I mean, this sounds like such a beautiful lesson of being like, oh, right, I was on a totally different track and no one else thought my way. But how do you train people to get in the mindsets of their customer? I mean, it just feels hard, especially if you're working in a really creative space and you're doing amazing campaigns like you all are doing. It does feel like it'd be easy to keep pushing that bar up. More creative, more creative into crazy land and then you're like, whoa, okay, now it's not even grounded in anything that connects with the average Fiverr customer anymore.
- [23:23]
B
Well, first of all, I do drive them crazy a little bit, I think. But I'll tell you, it's very simple. I remind them that they are people, that we are all people, and we like to laugh. And I, you know, I keep telling like the social team, like, if you don't find this, if you're not going to like this, don't post it. Like it's you on your, on your couch looking at things. If you don't think it's interesting, it's not interesting. So as a personal, on your personal level, and I think reminding them that they are also consumers, they're also just people behind. You know, a keyboard is kind of, it sounds funny to say eye opening, but it, sometimes it's something you need to do when you in that workflows, Constant workspace. Yep, yep.
- [24:17]
A
I love that. So I want to shift into trends because when I think about Fiverr and especially if I think about the business model, it seems like you guys will be the first ones to always know the trends that are happening in the world. Because you are the supply side, you are the demand side. You can see it all. I mean, I think when I think about vibe coding, although OpenAI coined it, I would think that you guys probably helped set the category and you've, you know, you provided the marketplace. And so I want to ask you, when it comes to thinking about, you know, as a marketing leader, as a cmo, how do you see some of these roles shifting or popping up? Like, what roles are you betting on that you see coming down the pike right now that you're like, I don't know if any business leaders see the demand that's happening here or the roles that are going to be needed over this next year.
- [25:02]
B
But I think it's exactly as you put it. It's always like both goes both ways. Like it's simultaneously the demand, the supply are almost like happening together. We're just identifying it and accelerating it and officializing it. Right? Because we see the trends of search of people looking for specific skill sets or specific professions or specific projects. And then we're looking into the supply side to see. And you're already seeing different freelancers that are opening new profile pages, offering with new offerings that are matching those searches. And what we do is basically we kind of, you know, we boost it and we categorize it into a dedicated place that you can find those people. And then whoever's not on the platform. Whoever's not in that category has now a destination where they can have that specific offering and the buyers can come to that category easier. And then this is where also all our data and our algorithm and our matching comes in that knows how to identify the need and to send the business owner into the right freelancer that offers that thing. So I think it's not a matter of choosing, it's mostly a matter of being there always to catch the trend in the right time, in the right place and leverage it.
- [26:29]
A
Yep. Yeah, I mean, so that's what I want to hear more about that. How, how do you spot the trends? I mean, how can you tell if you know one company's coming on and they're saying, I need, I don't know, some random role that you've never seen before.
- [26:41]
B
Is that a trend consultant, for example? Yeah.
- [26:43]
A
Okay, so that seems like a great trend. There's probably going to be lots of them. I mean, what are you seeing come on the platform right now that you're betting is an early trend or you're like, it's not there yet. It's kind of like vibe coding, early days, but it's, it's happening.
- [26:55]
B
I think it's mostly based on the searches. Because Fiverr is such a known platform. Right. We are almost like a destination that people come first to look for things when they need a skill, when they need a professional. And then we come to Fiverr and search for it. So we would identify that. And then, you know, it's easy for us to just, to create the, to create the category, even if it's still small. It's easy for us to already facilitate the possibility to find those professionals. And it grows, you know, with time. Like we don' on and as it grows then we, based on the, on the scale of it, then we can, you know, then we may only then we make the decision, do we place a bet on it, do we push it harder? Do we put more resources around it or not? And other kind of ways we're looking at trends and is obviously what everybody's doing looking outside, you know, what's the conversation, what people are talking about, what new tool came out, what does enterprise companies do, what happens in the world of startups right now? And it's always, it's a constant matching between what's in the outside and what's on the inside. And sometimes we learn about trends from the inside and sometimes from the outside.
- [28:11]
A
I love that. So you just mentioned enterprise companies. I want to circle back on that now because I mean, I think when Fiverr first came out it was more built for, you know, founders and people just looking for one off tasks and help. But now it seems like a lot of companies are looking to Fiverr to find their talent. Especially because the market's changing so quickly and the skills that you need six months ago are very different than what you need, you know, a year from now. And it's really hard to bet on maybe as many full time employees as they used to be betting on. And so how has this shift been happening? I mean are you actually seeing enterprise companies coming and hiring full teams from Fiverr now or really relying on fiverr?
- [28:50]
B
Yes, absolutely. And I think it's not something that is only kept for enterprises like freelancing has been since COVID Freelancing has been a growing trend and now with changes of the world of work and exactly what you say, that people are not sure what type of roles and skills they actually need in their companies. That's true from startups to enterprises. So the need for agility and expertise or new roles, new expertise is growing. And we see this evolution also within Fiverr in the sense of that for example, you're right that the small tasks, the simple things have less demand, but there's more demand now to more complex projects or very highly skilled freelancers. For example, if you take the world of SEO, which is a very big category at Fiverr, you see that you know a lot if not most of the freelancers are learning new skills and evolving themselves into the world of like LLM optimization and geo. And this is exactly what businesses are now looking for, like how can I find the right person to. And this is true for enterprises, it is true for, for, for small companies or, or mid sized companies because consumers behavior have changed and now people are searching through a lens. So okay, I need the right experts for that and that's hard to find. And usually the freelancers that were very strong in the world of SEO are evolving now to these new areas and usually they're also very good at this. So we definitely see the demand. But I can say that it's across the board. But it's true that now ask is for more complex stuff. You know we have for example a service that we give for enterprises or big companies of project management that basically it's a fiber service that you have a fiber person that they can find the right freelancers for your project. If you have something that is very complex and run the show for you in a way more agile, less you Know, kind of like on demand thing and we have other services for, for that are dedicated for the more complex projects.
- [31:20]
A
I did not know you had that. That's. Yeah, that's interesting.
- [31:23]
B
Yeah.
- [31:24]
A
It also seems like the, the management structure will have to be thought about when you shift from having a bunch of full time employees at a company to then now, you know, and trying to manage freelancers, which takes probably a different kind of management style. I mean, at least that's what I have felt. It's like a bit different knowing they've got other clients and, and you really got to figure out how to keep them incentivized, to focus and, you know, keep them on track with your project. Which makes me think maybe there's different management levels to come in and really be overseeing, you know, a team of a bunch of freelancers and even working with a Fiverr person to then also help oversee it and find the people and shifting quickly.
- [31:59]
B
I think if you have someone who is highly professional, whether they're a full time employee or freelancer, it doesn't matter. They will be dedicated, they will do the work, they will be invested. And we see that across the board. So I don't, I don't think that they necessarily need a different management style. I think the co working style with the internal team might, might require like new adjustments in the way you do things. But I think part of the, the tools and the, that we have on the platform are there also to make it easier to, you know, to onboard freelancers as part of your team, to expand your team, whether it's how you pay them or whether it's, you know, different kind of like payment tool or you can hire them on an hourly basis, you can hire them only on a project base. Like there's different tools and features that we have on the platform that can give a lot of flexibility and make the hiring of freelancers for, whether it's a short term or a long term period, much easier and much more kind of hybrid. And I think this is where the world is going also. I think, you know, the idea of having a hybrid workforce is probably going to be the future of work anyway.
- [33:18]
A
Yeah, I totally agree. So we were talking a bit about LLMs earlier, which this is a topic that I have discussed a lot recently on the show. It's funny how the conversations shift into very different areas. And now it's a lot about discoverability and I'm wondering for Fiverr, is there anything that you and your team have been doing to make sure that the Fiverr brand is being found in the ChatGPT of the world and that you're being found for the right things because it seems like you have a lot of content out there that also is under these Freelancer pages that are probably helping with your geo and SEO optimization. But how are you all thinking about being found for the right terms and questions?
- [33:55]
B
I think for everyone this whole world of discoverability and visibility through LLMs is still, you know. You know we had years of learning the Google algorithm and how it should work and like what to do and what the steps and it was like the whole methodology was already, you know, was built and it's clear and now it's like rebuilding the methodology, relearning, testing. I think the basic understanding is how brands and the power of the brand and what people say about the brand is suddenly even more important than ever because this is what will end up driving better, worse visibility on those platform because they mostly rely not on our own content but more on the on third party content. So. So we do put more emphasize on and speaks also to the to the types of campaigns we're doing that some of our KPIs is to create a conversation is to drive conversation. Like we would like the Gary video for example. The whole goal of it was to drive conversation and to. That's why we're looking to tap into things that people are talking about. Same goes with our pr, our GAO team and the type of content they're they're writing and creating. Our content team or doing additional now have like additional pillars of type of content they're they're creating and posting in different places in order to increase our visibility. But it's very much, you know, learning as we go. I think I listen to a lot of podcasts and I it's definitely a world that I'm you know, trying to hear and learn and I think, I think this is kind of like what I hear from everyone. Like there are some people or companies even that are, you know, found this as their expertise and they're focusing only on that. But even them speak about how the measurability of it is still very much, you know, I don't want to say mandatory, but it's not, you know, it's still not fully clear of. There is no ranking or clear ranking to a lens to understand exactly if what you're doing is taking where you want to be.
- [36:16]
A
Mm, yeah. I mean it seems like we're in the in between gray area right now of you should probably just be putting more out there. On more platforms. And you should be allowing other people, like you said, your customers or influencers to talk about you. That probably holds more weight than, you know, you getting up and saying we're the best. Like letting your customers say you're the best. Yes. But yeah, just playing everywhere. And that's why, I mean, obviously I'm biased, but I think podcasts are an amazing platform and YouTube as well. Just getting video content out there.
- [36:43]
B
And YouTube is one of our strongest platforms.
- [36:47]
A
Yep. Yeah, yeah, same. Yeah, we started betting on video, I think like three years ago, putting all of our podcasts in video. And it's interesting because it's such a different platform compared to podcasts. And like, we really knew how to grow our shows and get them ranking and all the things. And then we switched over to YouTube. We're like, oh, wow, this is like a whole different world. And you can't just copy paste, which we see a lot of brands doing, where they just take one format, throw it into another place, and then just throw it on LinkedIn. And like, you can't do that. You have to treat them like individuals, companies and strategies and even team members of. Okay, you're. You're very good at that. You're very good at this piece and not trying to just, you know, make one person understand all the platforms. But yeah, it seems like that is my high level thought of how to be good in this space right now, but without getting caught up in data and measurement and just killing yourself with attribution. And is this working yet? Like, this is a long term play where. Yeah, you just gotta make the bet now.
- [37:38]
B
It's. Yeah, and I think that's part of it. Like you need to make the bet to go with it because you're not always going to have all the data all the time, especially when everything is so fresh and new, which is exciting.
- [37:55]
A
I actually love the space we're in now. I'm like, this is cool. We get to learn so many new things now and try it and fail.
- [38:01]
B
Yeah, just two things. Just try them and do them. Exactly.
- [38:04]
A
There you go. I like it. Shiri style. Try it, do it. That's good. All right, so I want to shift gears now because when we talked maybe a month or two ago, you told me about this email that your CEO sent you, your whole company. And at first when I heard, I was like, whoa, whoa, that's like, that's aggressive. How are these employees feeling about this? And I think the email said, AI will take all of our jobs one day, including mine. Now I don't have the context of the email. I don't know why you know, what this was about, but I'd love to hear a background on why did he send this and what happened among the company. Like what was the point of this email? Just tell me all the background.
- [38:38]
B
First of all, that's a very definitely a great headline and a great sound bite. But there was an if afterwards.
- [38:44]
A
Oh, I missed the if. Okay, wait, say it in the way it's supposed to be then.
- [38:47]
B
No, but, but no, that was, this was true. That was the email. It was definitely very direct and created a lot of noise and definitely a lot of like interview opportunities for him. But the reality of his letter was that that's, that's the reality of our lives. It's true that if we as marketeers, as developers, as you know, HR people, whatever we do, doesn't matter. If we want, you know, wake up our curiosity, if we want sharpen our curation capabilities and if we're not gonna start dipping our toes into new technologies and doing ourselves new things, we will become not relevant. You know, I've been in the business of marketing for feel so old, 20 years to say and I'm a dinosaur, right? So I have a lot of experience and I've done many things and I have all that. But you know, I was thinking to myself if. And that's really aligns with this letter. If I'm a dinosaur and the ice age is coming, I better learn how to snowboard, right? If you want to stay relevant. And it was kind of a wake up call email I guess for all of us. And that encouraged a lot of the employees and I think it did the same with the echo it had on social and communication to wake up and realize that we need to learn reality have changed. There's this new technology. Imagine, you know, Internet, right? Or social media. Like today we're podcasting and we have YouTubers and there's influencers and social media managers and all that stuff that we take for granted. But I'm old enough to remember that this skills and professions did not exist. And if we want to stay relevant in this new age, we have to learn and try and do things that even if we don't understand them in the beginning or. But we have to test ourselves to see what other skills we can evolve to. What does a marketeer means? You know, five years from now it's not going to be the same, right? And, and I think that was kind of the essence of the letter. And I think, you know, you saw things like other, like big brands and big companies, and you see that it's, it's, it's, it's happening. This is exactly where we are.
- [41:23]
A
Yep. So what personal shifts or shakeups did you see in yourself after you saw that email? And it probably had you, you know, questioning a lot of things and skills that you should acquire. And I'm sure it can be also overwhelming of like, now I need to be a coder. Now I need to learn everything. Now I need to, you know, so what did it wake up in you and maybe your team as well?
- [41:43]
B
So you can't, you know, obviously you can't learn everything at once. But I think the first, like, it was a great checkup, but I think at least for me and my team, you know, a second later it was kind of like, all right, so now we start and we, they know, you know, it's, it's true for Fiverr across the board is that, you know, when they come and they, they want my team specifically. Also when they need all those, like, you know, they want to try different platforms to use it, they automatically get, you know, the access they need to try new things. And we dedicate time for this as well. At least in the beginning when, you know, when new tools have arrived, like, you know, all the videos or the new journeys, like in the early days, we. It's funny, I got it. The early days, I think it was like a year ago.
- [42:41]
A
Oh, the good old days.
- [42:42]
B
The good old days journey was like a new thing we all learned how to use. But, but it's to dedicate time in their calendars and to make sure that they spend the time of trial and testing and learning and bringing sometimes freelancers or other people that are already more savvy in the, in those fields to teach them. And I also talk a lot, so my expectations from them is to understand that the boundaries are blurring and each of them kind of like, you know, if you think about personal development that is now getting a whole new meaning and definition. It's not just about how I'm going to evolve in my field. It's like, okay, if I'm a designer and now I have the capability to deploy and to create, you know, the landing pages or whatever I do without the need for anybody techy to do it. Okay, here's another skill for me. So now I'm going to start doing that. If I'm a content writer or ux content writer designer, I can now create, you know, design the page in the flow and the user experience that I think is the best in order to communicate that better to the actual UX designer or the, you know, developer or whatever that is. And I think the, it's not just this letter. I think it's the overall kind of mindset of Fiverr and the culture and the kind of the approach that our CEO brought in and it's embedded across, you know, all the senior leadership and the, and the employees is that we need to develop and to learn new skills and there's always room for, for learning. Like there's no expectation that, you know, tomorrow morning everybody's going to meet but, but we are going to find ourselves in a situation that we have that everybody's like some sort of a, creators or multi talents that can do a lot of things. And I guess I don't know how it would look like exactly, but I guess, you know, that will also impact the organizational structure and how we work on things.
- [45:00]
A
Yeah. One thought that I've been playing with and you can tell me if you don't agree with this, but as a lot of things are getting automated, a lot of jobs are shifting, a lot of roles are changing. The one thing that I feel like I'm thinking about everyone betting on more is how do I tap into my human self more? We've been so in our head like in this world of how do I get better at a task and better at doing the thing. And now it's like, well, all these things can be done themselves, but how do you tap into wisdom, like pure embodied knowledge of a life you've lived, of an experience that you had that no AI tool could ever come up with because it didn't live, it didn't exist, only you did. And so I'm like, how do we tap into that as like be more human?
- [45:41]
B
I think it's how do we leverage that?
- [45:44]
A
Yeah.
- [45:44]
B
And our curiosity, our creativity. Because it's true that, you know, there are things that are still like, you know, only humans can, can have. You don't get that, you know, when you. I think there was recently this. Someone prompted ChatGPT to create a woman. No description, just create a woman.
- [46:09]
A
Okay.
- [46:09]
B
And did you see that one?
- [46:11]
A
No. No. Tell me about it.
- [46:13]
B
So it gave a certain type, very type cast kind of like of a woman. Obviously she was thin, she looked in a certain way. And then she started asking on social and she asked everybody to take the same post and to see what they get. And everybody got the same woman, exact same woman. The only time she was different or at least ethnically a bit different is when the prompt was in a different language that matched the ethnicity that she came out as. And that was kind of like, oh, my God. It's like, no matter. Like, you always get the same kind of average thing like she was, you know, And I think if you wanna. So I think what happens is that the technology definitely kind of like, elevates the average. Right. Everybody can do more things.
- [47:02]
A
Yeah.
- [47:03]
B
Also, we see it, like, in a category like book publishing. Right. Which is one of the growing. You talked about trends and asked about, like, growing categories. Book publishing is a growing category because suddenly everybody writes books.
- [47:14]
A
Yep. Everyone's an author now.
- [47:15]
B
Everybody writes books. And everybody now looking. Coming to FY to look for people will help them edit the books or template the books or, you know, design the books and all that stuff. And. But yet, I would bet that with all those new authors, there's only one, you know, Stephen King, you know, there's no. So I think being creative and curious and having the boldness to try things is probably the most important qualities that we need to have today in order to. And to think, how can we leverage them? And creativity, you know, it's like, you know, creative thinking, it doesn't have to be. You don't need to be a creative person in your profession. But it's the things, the qualities that we definitely need to leverage to think, how can we leverage in order to bring value or create value in this new world?
- [48:11]
A
Okay, so with everything you've done, you've seen a lot. Like you said, you've been in this space for a long time. Do you have any advice for marketing leaders, brand leaders, CMOs?
- [48:21]
B
Yes. To embrace the chaos and to learn how to be comfortable in the unknown and be able to also move forward and in this unknown by placing bets on different things that you believe in them, knowing that you might fail. I think because everything is changing so quickly all the time. This is something I also tell my team. We have to learn how to understand what we can control, what we cannot control and feel okay with it. That we probably feel that we can control less than what we used to, and we have to be okay with it. I think that's kind of like the main. Impressed. The mess, I would say.
- [49:15]
A
Yeah. So, okay, I want to get to the how. Because I'm like, yes, I have heard this a couple times on the show, but then I'm like, how do you actually. If you have pure chaos coming at you, slapping you in the face, rolling you around, how do you actually ground yourself? Calm yourself and your team to sit in it and stay in it without letting it throw off your entire nervous system and your whole day and, you know, not be able to operate in life. It's a little, it's a little intense. So I took it there.
- [49:40]
B
Yeah, well, I think, you know, every time there's, like, chaos, you need to go back to basic for a second. Your what can you control? What can you offer? What do you do good? What do you do? What do you have that people need? And, and focus on that. Focus only, Only on that. And let the chaos and the changes sometimes also, you know, it could slap at you, but it could also open up opportunities for you that you didn't realize that as long as in one hand you're very grounded in, like, what can you offer and what you're good at, and then simultaneously be open, like, open your arms to doing things completely different than what you used to do. And I think throwing people into the deep end more than ever is something that, you know, they, they, they accept, they understand that it's part of the deal now. They have to, you know, get a task that, or a project that they understand they need to do, even if they don't exactly know how and where to start. I will give them kind of like a lead, okay, let's start there and let's build the plan as we, as we fight, we'll go. I think that's. That would be kind of like the finish of embracing the chaos in a way. Like, understanding that you can't see 10 years forward. You see, in today's world, you see, I don't know, a month forward, two months forward. Yep. And that's, that's it. So play towards these two months right now.
- [51:23]
A
Yeah, it does seem like such a shift in the world when I think about. Even when I first started back in Google or back when I was working at Fannie Mae, I had a long ramp period. Now when I look back on it, I'm like, wow, they were so patient with me. They gave me probably like three or six months just to ramp up and try and learn the Org. And now looking at today, it's like I hear so many people saying, you know, I'm expecting you to launch something to start something within a month or two. I want to see how you work and I want to see things happen quickly, even if it's a little haphazard, even if it's not the way that I really perfectly wanted it. Just seeing, like, how is my team performing and how can I just Throw them in.
- [51:59]
B
Absolutely. There is no like 30, 60, 90 days are over. Like it's more like, you know, week, two weeks, three weeks kind of thing. But I think as long as, as a manager or as an organization, you understand that as you said, it's going to be haphazard, it's not going to be perfect. Then, then it, then it's fine, it makes sense. I don't think it's a high expectation to, to choose this approach.
- [52:29]
A
Yeah. What about when it comes to team org structure roles? I mean to me, like you said, it seems like the lines are getting blurred between who's doing what and I mean you can be a marketer and then you're like, well now I'm going to be over here working with, you know, lovable and then I'm going to be over here doing something, you know, in branding or even working with the sales team. I mean it seems like marketing, sales, revenue, all kind of converging customer success, same thing. How do you think about bringing someone in and trying to keep them on a, maybe a career path and showing them where it can lead, but also knowing that this world is merging very quickly.
- [53:02]
B
So I think that lines are blurring but at the end of the day, you know, people are good, you know that they have like certain skills and they're good at something. So the kind of the essence of their skill usually can be relevant for additional skills that are kind of adjacent to it in a way. For example, I think the whole world of SEO, Geo for example. Right. It's a different ball game to do geo. It's not nothing like SEO, but the way of thinking and the mindset and the kind of like the, the more of the kind of personal attributes that you have as an SEO expert will be relevant as a GEO expert. For example, I think from design sense point, you know, we have under my, you know, our designers, you know, they used to work Figma, that was their world, but now they don't need the motion design to create motion. They don't need the martech. So they can just go ahead and do it themselves and, and then evolve into maybe becoming also a motion designer and then their title changes and there's new title. So it's like I don't spend too much time in trying to figure out how it would look like. I'm just saying let's let it happen. Let them choose each one where they feel they get the higher impact that they can bring with the existing kind of talent. They have to get new skills and then we'll see. We'll see how it, you know, how it evolves.
- [54:43]
A
I love that. All right, I want to shift over now to the lightning round. This is where I ask you a question, and you have a minute or less to send back your answer. Are you ready, Shiri?
- [54:53]
B
I am.
- [54:54]
A
All right, take a breath. Get ready. Okay, so first up, what is one of your favorite tools or platforms that you've been playing around with recently? Something new.
- [55:04]
B
Something new. Obviously VEO and all those, like the VO3 and now, sorry two came out yesterday, so I'm definitely going to try that. I use it in a very silly way sometimes, just, you know, personal. Like, I just use it to create, to deliver my messages, sometimes even to my husband and kids in a more creative way.
- [55:28]
A
That's good.
- [55:29]
B
Yeah, so I really like that. I like base 44. I use all the time. And again, I always feel like I'm not leveraging it enough. You know, you always get the feeling that you can do way more. Yeah, but. But this is where I need the help of a professional to kind of teach me maybe a little bit more. So I use these and obviously, you know, touch up constantly. I use the voice mode to prepare to this interview, for example.
- [55:58]
A
Nice. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I will say that, you know, it's. I think it's more rare for a CMO to be in base 44 and to be in VO, so kudos to you for diving in and getting your hands dirty, because I actually haven't heard that that often, so.
- [56:14]
B
Oh, yeah. And also actually just to correct my title on the VP brand. But our cmo, my boss, is also constantly on, like, now he has this new project that he wants to create. I don't want to say it is still super, but yeah, we're definitely trying to create, like, side projects and things.
- [56:32]
A
That's cool. About to bring on your cmo. Nexon. Check him out. Although this was fun, it's a high bar, so I don't know. That's good. Okay, if you had a Times Square billboard, but you couldn't pro, you couldn't promote Fiverr, what would you put on it?
- [56:47]
B
It would be my URL. I couldn't. Careless.com. that would be the URL.
- [56:59]
A
Where is it going to go to now? I want to type it in. Is this your URL?
- [57:03]
B
It's like, I know I couldn't purchase it. It was too expensive. But it's something that between, like my. My son tried to buy it for me for my birthday because I, you know, sometimes it's like, it's kind of like, it sounds negative, but it's kind of my positive way of saying, like, I'm focusing on what's important. So I couldn't care less.com on anything else.
- [57:27]
A
Yeah.
- [57:28]
B
So that would be it, I guess. Some sort of a motto.
- [57:31]
A
Yeah, I love it. That's good. Who is someone that gave you a piece of advice that really has stuck with you over your life? And what was the advice?
- [57:39]
B
Oh, I have a lot of good advice that I got, obviously, from my parents. A lot of good advice. And for work, I had a manager in my early days that she told me, never be offended. Never be offended. If you want to say something, get up and say it. If you're not invited to the meeting that you want to be in, find the note to bring in and stay in that meeting. Don't. Don't ever be kind of like, don't find excuses why you haven't brought yourself all in if you feel you should kind of thing. Yeah. So, you know, kind of write your own path in a way, I guess, if I can translate it.
- [58:33]
A
I love that. I had a. I had a good manager at Google, and she always told me, speak with your feet. If a meeting is not worth your time, just walk out. Even if it's in the middle, just leave. I'm like, damn. Okay, Anne. I will.
- [58:44]
B
True. Yeah, I love it.
- [58:46]
A
Okay. What is a place that you get inspiration that maybe is a little outside the norm? It's not from work or anything. Like, where do you find some good. Yeah. Creative ideas or your inspiration comes from?
- [58:57]
B
I listen to a lot of books and podcasts. I'll be honest. Since audio came into our lives, I became a very intellectual person.
- [59:08]
A
Me too.
- [59:09]
B
I got smart because it's. I got smarter because as a. As a. You know, I was growing up, it was very hard for me to read like it. To focus on. On a book. But since I can listen to books, I listen to every type of book or podcast from, you know, economics to data science to romance novels to pop culture to all sorts of. Of weird. I like to listen to niche things that I don't understand anything about. When I'm starting reading history, I think it's very inspiring when you look back at the evolution of things and how. The evolution of people and how they behave and what drives people is very inspiring to me. I'm obsessed with understanding what takes people. And watch five.
- [60:03]
A
Yeah, I love that. Okay, what's a favorite book that comes to mind? And then what's a favorite podcast that you tune into other than marketing trends, which I'm sure you.
- [60:10]
B
I was about to say marketing trends, of course. Book, I think, like, I read it like ages ago, but it left a mark for sure. It was Shoe Dog.
- [60:22]
A
Oh, yeah. Such a good book.
- [60:24]
B
It's a really good book. And because it was not kind of like the traditional business, the autobiography, there's something there that really left. I left the book with a. With not with a business of Nike, but with a person with a human behind it. So it was really beautiful. And podcasts, I listened to a lot of podcasts. I listened to Lenny's podcast, Prof. G. I like with X Friedman. I like even Joe Rogan sometimes, if I have patience. Because I need patience. Yes to that podcast. I'm very mainstream. I think. I'm not unique in any way.
- [61:06]
A
I don't know. I'd say you're pretty unique after this conversation. Anyone told you otherwise?
- [61:10]
B
But I know I'm okay. I'm an okay mainstream. I'm a middle child. It's fine. I think being mainstream rocks.
- [61:17]
A
It's good. Okay. And then the last thing, what is a hobby or something that you like to do that most people don't know that you do?
- [61:24]
B
It's going to sound. Speaking of mainstream and shallowness, I had an argument with a friend of mine, which he is a very, kind of like, is a very creative. Like, he was a very senior in one of the biggest creative agencies in the US and he does a lot of thing. He does art and bikes and stuff like that. And we talk about hobbies. And I said, my hobby is to watch tv. And he said, that's not a hobby and is a hobby. I learned English from watching tv. I, you know, I watch it with intention. I learn a lot of stuff. I Google things after I watch tv. So I think it's a hobby. I would title it as a hobby. And then we ended up becoming a whole argument whether watching TV is a hobby or not. I still vote yes.
- [62:07]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think whatever you want can be in hot be a hobby, so.
- [62:11]
B
Exactly.
- [62:11]
A
That's. That's my thought. Well, Shiri, this was so fun. Thank you for coming on the podcast and sharing all your ideas and wisdom. Really, really appreciate our time together. Where can people find out more about you, learn about your background and what you're up to?
- [62:25]
B
Obviously my LinkedIn, which I nurture. Not enough. And all my contacts is there, obviously. Fiverr. And on your podcast.
- [62:36]
A
There you go. There you have it, folks. All right, well, thanks so much. And we'll see you again soon.
- [62:40]
B
Thank you so much. This was fun.