A (2:46)

It is.

B (2:47)

And then just forgetting that part of it. Just not feeling at all happy in terms of culture, personal values and ability to have the kind of impact that I like to have. And so that's why I go back to the resilience is. And I'm very empathetic when other people come to me for advice because you don't know if you don't try. And I give credit to people who do try. Things that are unexpected and hard and not safe, whatever safe is in this day and age. I don't know. Or predictable. And I, you know what I really don't think. What I really think we have to stop doing in turn as hiring leaders now is to be super judgmental of someone who's had a short tenure, a couple of short tenures, because it's not all a bad thing. The world of work has just changed so dramatically. And it's more about someone's narrative and what they learned and, and, and why they are what they are and what, what their decision making is. So for me, I, I think I wish I hadn't put myself through. Had I had I known otherwise, I would have preferred to have. Avoid that level of pain and angst and uncertainty. And now what. But I don't know how to separate it really from part. It's all part of the journey at this point and I just have to accept it as such. And I would say that that's true for all of us. Yeah.

A (4:08)

Yeah. The CMO role itself, you don't choose to be a chief Marketing officer or equivalent title if you're shy or weary of, or wary, I should say of volatility, unpredictability, you know, the threat of having the rug pulled out from under you. I mean, it is such, it is such an un. Impermanent kind of role really. It really is in so many different ways, whether you're there for 16 years or six months, you know, the, the changeability. I mean, we've all. There's a million people who talk about this and there's so much research, but oddly, that is what defines it. So you have to, on the one hand, you have to sort of know and be committed that you're signing up for something that's going to be rocky, like full stop. It's probably not in anybody's best interest that you think that you're going to. It's going to be smooth sailing. It's just not. But that's okay. And that Creates for excitement, it creates for intrigue. It's, you know, constant, exciting process that I think CMOs who really show up are signing up for. But you do bring up a topic that I know a lot of CMOs think about, and it is so true, is you are building your narrative. So, like with every choice that you make is an individual in that role. It is a very visible role in our world and in business. And so, you know, there's a choicefulness that has to happen in terms of, well, where should I put myself and what is this saying about me? And I just feel like you can think about that till you're blue in the face, but ultimately, you know, and yes, you, you, not you, but the general you I care about what, how people are interpreting that, you know, you can't control that. You can only make the decision that's in front of you with the information you have at hand. And, you know, I think that's what certainly you've done, other people have done. And there's great wins and there's great missteps and that's all part of it. You know, I think it's. It's how you continue to chart your course. And I think the way you've been able to do that is super unique. You know, on this point, last question, like anybody who would be considering. I mean, listen, I can't even the AI conversation. And we know our dear friend Stephen is so all in on how AI is going to change the world. And Steven, I know you're going to listen to this at some point and listen, we're here for you. We're. I'm on board. But the big question marks that still loom cause a lot of consternation for a lot of CMOs. And you know, anybody who's like in college, in an MBA program, somebody who's sitting at Brown studying liberal arts, like, will they choose being a CMO as a career, do you think?

B (6:31)

Wow. Well, if my daughters are any indication, I think yes. Not that they both exactly aspire to that, but they might. And I can't quite figure out yet if it's where I think they do both have natural talents for it and could be very good at it. And it's also what they know. So that's the hard thing when you're helping shape, you know, a view of the careers of your own children. Now, how do you. How do you guide them? It's something we talk about a lot in a world that's so disrupted. And the best prognosticators right now don't really know. Everyone is so much opinions of what jobs are being disrupted, when and how and I mean we have spent quite a bit of time, as you mentioned, talking about this in the past season on brand new podcast. And the thing I take some comfort in is that across the pretty cool experts we've had coming on and talking about it, there does seem to be some consensus that where the human capability, intelligence is still going to matter very much professionally and I feel like that's what's already manifesting is the creativity, the ability to connect dots, the judgment to use tools to help you go faster and automate certain things for sure. But there's still this like orchestration and vision and leadership that we're still going to need us for. And I think that's the best part of my job. So I feel encouraged. I also feel like everyone, the pressure to figure this out and move forward in responsible ways and I think pressure on both efficiency and effectiveness just coming together in new ways. But it's also how we've been navigating technology for the last 20 plus years and arguably a lot longer. So I think you have no choice but to lean in and be curious and surround yourself with people who you can learn from and then, but also stay true to the things that feel fundamental to what we do and what we fundamentally need to do are win hearts and minds and change behaviors. So the tools are always going to change for that, but the fundamentals are still pretty fundamental. Our human psychology is still pretty consistent over millennials. Yeah.

A (8:42)

And you know, one of the things I think that applies here too is the concept that CMOs, I think, all due respect, you know, there's a lot of stuff that happens outside of their narrative that, that they can't control or they feel like they're sort of the recipients of, you know, misperceptions or misunderstanding or lack of appreciation or a lack of support. But if you turn that around, there's a huge opportunity for CMOs to really, truly finally own their own narrative and actually finally be proactive about establishing who they are, why they matter to brands and businesses. We've been talking about that for a bit. But the with the AI avenue, AI, I mean, here's a huge opportunity for them to actually jump in and be principal players in the narrative and like who they need to be in that equation. Not just for marketing and advertising and brands, but for business overall. So I think that's a huge opportunity too. If people had time to devote to it and get their heads around it, that's the other reality.

B (9:38)

I quite like that my title and my current role is Chief Customer and Marketing Officer. And look, on the one hand, I think titles are titles and they mean different things to different places. And in a way semantics matter. But does semantics matter in that sense? In that I think it is actually in many ways a better definition of this role. It's not just the practice of the tactics of marketing. It is, I'll tell you, in a retail environment, very much so. When you think about the different functions around the table, you know, you have people that own the product, the merchandise, and then you have people in certain pastorals. That was me too, like in Taco Bell, but. And you have people that own maybe the stores, but who's owning the actual customer. And I think that's a really. And own is probably the wrong word representing their voice at the table. And what it means is. I would prefer to say it that way. Own sounds political. And I don't mean it that way at all.

A (10:36)

I use it all the time too.

B (10:37)

But you're right, but like who thinks that way first? That's the way I'd rather say it with respect to my colleagues. And I think that is such the essence of the job is thinking about how do we understand them and connect to them and how does that. How do you then connect the dots to the actual business? Of course, we're in business, but also to culture. And that's what makes this job uniquely interesting and fun too. You can put all that together and then technology, notice isn't part of that three legged stool, it's just the enabler of all that.

A (11:10)

Exactly. So now let's talk about your job at Catalyst. This is where it all comes together. Because listen, it's retail. You're not actually a stranger to retail. You've been there before.

B (11:20)

Right. It is a storied.

A (11:22)

Certainly J.C. penney is a storied brand. Right. It has history, it has legacy. It also, you know, listen, retail is a massively disrupted industry.

B (11:31)

Yes.

A (11:31)

As well. So how did you view the opportunity and by the way, why you tell people about again, portfolio.

B (11:39)

Well that.

A (11:40)

But also like your entree into Catalyst or JCPenney was as a consulting CMO first.

B (11:46)

Yeah.

A (11:46)

Talk a little bit about that.

C (11:47)

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B (12:18)

Sure. And it started we in the I have not even been with the company for a year at this point, coming up on a year very soon. But in that time we started it started first as JCPenney and then I knew from day one that the high likelihood was about to kind of merge and become a bigger company. I wrote a piece on LinkedIn about the value of trying something on as my way of explaining why I said yes and wanted to do it as a consulting CMO first is I was feeling a little gun shy from the role I was coming out of and not because my team there wasn't great and I really did believe in the brands we had. But there were some factors that made it a very difficult situation. And like we said, sometimes you just don't know until you're there. So I thought and and look, you hear J at least for me then hopefully already the answer to this will be different. But I heard J.C. penney and my first thought was a little like yikes, that that sounds hard. Could I do it? What it's going to be like? And I also had enough retail experience that I knew a little bit more of what to look for in terms of what the dynamics were going to be like. Would they be dynamics conducive to letting me get in there and actually really go for it and succeed? And gosh, I hope that if we're listening to this back a year or two from now, my answer won't have changed. But knockwood, I mean so far all of that has been in spades in terms of the instant connections I felt with Mark Rosen, the CEO Michelle Waslow, who was chief merchandising officer of J.C. penney, is now the CEO of JCPenney. As we became Catalyst Brands and my peer and partner and it just Jenny, I mean really, it all comes down to the people at the end of the day. It really does. And the environment and the commitment to be good partners to each other. It's like why is it it's actually in many ways like as simple as that and yet so hard to find the corporate world. And one thing I have come to realize about myself is I just, I won't compromise, I won't compromise being an authentic and values driven leader while doing that work. And I, I just don't want to swallow a poison pill to keep collecting a Paycheck or just won't. And I feel good about that. But it hasn't been without trade offs and some pain involved. So I feel like I said knock wood lucky that first with J.C. penney, I just, I got energized so quickly because I started to see the possibilities. And it started with just going into a store for the first time and realizing a lot of work had been done and now it was a storytelling opportunity. How do we open people's eyes? How do we wake people up? And I now from my experiences of leaping industries, I've built my own process, dive in and how to look at something as a newcomer and assess the situation what's. And really build. It's actually in some ways my favorite part is that beginning of just taking it all in with fresh eyes and laying it all down in a way that can build alignment and build first alignment. What's the situation analysis and then excitement about. So where do we go from here? And that happened really quickly at JCPenney. So it was really energizing. That's where I get my energy is getting other people excited about a vision and possibilities and then starting to unlock that creatively and with new storytelling. And arguably now the next part will be harder because there's just, you know, the realities of a tough economic environment and you know, legacy retail format and just trying to move people fast to change behavior. But it's happening in the industry with some other brands and I feel fully confident that this is going to happen. And I think this goes back to the bravery thing is I don't think you say yes to a role like this just to kind of incrementally move it forward. I mean you kind of, you kind of have to play big with it and you have to be willing to just really go for it. And the case for change is very simple. The way it's been going hasn't been getting the results the business needs. So we all know the definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and thinking there'd be a different effect. So the case for change actually is quite simple. The credibility of course then comes from actually starting to see it bear fruit. And the fear factor is the impatience is going to kick in for unrealistic results too big, too fast relative to all the years it's may be taken to get to the place that you're recovering from. And that's where the pressures on a CMO do get written about and talked about. Because there can be people thinking involved.

A (17:15)

Can you share the timeline like you've got a timeline. You have to hit XYZ by XYZ date. You know, you have to think sort of, it can't go in perpetuity. You're thinking about what are the milestones I want to hit. Right?

B (17:28)

Yeah.

A (17:28)

Are you thinking about that? And then the other question around that is just like this concept for the case for change is, was easy and simple and very visible. I have to think though, there's something about legacy brands especially like it's hard to part with some of the old ways of thinking as well, you know. So on both those points, the timeline pressure, the partying with anything legacy or holding on to legacy things that were valuable that got the brand to read this, like, how do you think about that?

B (17:55)

Because a couple things, I mean, on the timeline, I really, I can't really go into details on that. It. It's just. But I think the important thing is aligning it as well as possible with the overall business realities, expectations, financial goals, and then trying to make all the best decisions you can. And you know, if we can start seeing incremental, you know, even little results like green shoots, I call them, it helps build confidence and, and hopefully some endurance on the. Oh, gosh, what was your other question?

A (18:24)

Legacy versus case for, for wholesale change. You know.

B (18:29)

Yeah. Again, I feel like this lesson was somewhat self taught and that means I probably bumped into some walls learning it, but. And Lowe's kind of helped me shape this. But actually even before that, Taco Bell is what this was. The benefit of coming as an outsider and also realizing that comes with probably some inherent skepticism. How is she going to get us? How is she going to know? And so what I realized is it's actually incredibly important to discern what are the conventions of the brand or business that are actually really important to maintain and honor. And what are the conventions that are just there because they're conventions and they're not allowing you to separate and differentiate and break apart and, and those are the ones you have to defy. And when you lay it out that way, it's actually quite helpful. And I think it does build trust. Cause it's like, oh, she's not just here to blow it all up. She's actually really being mindful of what are the parts. And you can think of that in, you know, sort of ridiculous examples to make the point. But let's say I showed up at a JCPenney or Lowe's and said, you know, everyone else puts all their energy into holiday and why don't we just forget about that, let everyone else have Holiday and we're just going to play in the summer. And that's a ridiculous example, but it's illustrative of coming in and being unconventional in ways that would absolutely disrupt and ruin the business. So yes, it's a convention to play big at Holiday because there's a reason the money gets made then. And so that's a very simple and easy example to say. That's when you'd be like, no, we, I understand Holiday is a make or break time for us and we're going to play hard there. But there might. But maybe the way we market hint, hint to what's coming for JCPenney doesn't have to be as conventional as everyone else's. Those two things, to me that's a good example of leadership is to be able to find the nuance and to help your team see the difference between those things. And I feel like these are somewhat self taught lessons, but I'm happy to share them because they, you know, they took some, like I said, probably bumping into some things and realizing, oh, you know, and that's, that's not the right way to do it. But the exercise of, of thinking these things through can be very, very valuable for a team, not just you as a leader.

A (20:55)

When are you gonna write your book, Marissa?

B (20:58)

You just have AI righted is the question.

A (21:00)

That's true. Marissa Dahlberg's guide to marketing, full stop.

B (21:04)

Oh my gosh, a must read. Absolutely.

A (21:07)

No, I'm not kidding. But now let's talk about, about Catalyst. Yes, it is actually quite a portfolio of amazing brands. So bring us up to speed on, on at a business level, what happened and then all the brands that you now oversee in your role.

B (21:21)

Well, interestingly, it was, it really was two companies with some shared ownership. My first private company actually coming together as one. So a company formerly known as Spark, it was an acronym and then J.C. penney merged, we became Catalyst Brands. So now it's J.C. penney, which is OB1 kind of, you know, big box retailer. And then currently we have five specialty retail brands that are well known and I think generally quite beloved in the United States. Starting with the oldest retailer in America. Did you know that? Which is Brooks Brothers.

A (21:56)

Oh my goodness, I did not know that. It was the oldest in America.

B (22:01)

The richest, most remarkable history. Oh my gosh. My favorite little fun fact about Brooks Brothers is Brooks Brothers has dressed all but four of the American presidents in our.

A (22:14)

Oh, that's cool. It also dressed my dad. He was a, like, that's all he shopped for work. That was his past tense.

B (22:24)

And that concerns me because the goal, of course is to get him and everyone else. And you too by the way, are women.

A (22:30)

I love the women's lines. Oh my goodness, they're beautiful.

B (22:33)

I mean, you know, and this is where retail going back to the people. If the attitude of collaboration camaraderie is there, I mean, I just think the world of Ken Ohashi, the CEO of Brooks Brothers, who's done so much to really turn it around, and the rest of the leadership there from Lou Amanjola, who's like a long standing, you know, merchandising leader in the industry. Michael Bastian, the creative director of Brooks Brothers. And we're all coming together now to just. And I mean this is a case of growing the momentum. So that's a lot of fun. Same with Aeropostale is on fire right now.

A (23:12)

My 16 year old daughter and I literally just went in there to I'm glad 3 days ago and she loves that store.

B (23:19)

So it's a really great destination. We just did one of the bigger marketing campaigns in the brand's history with a young influencer who was our summer intern. So we got to really lean into the idea of her being our intern and then it turning into a collab at the end. Demetra and so that's just been a lot of fun. Natalie Levy, CEO of that cluster along with Lucky Brand. We have a big marketing campaign launching this week and we're teasing it on our social right now. So that's been a lot of fun. We also have Nautica and Eddie Bauer has a brand new campaign. We relaunched the brand in record time and that's debuting like literally just debuted yesterday at the point of which we're having this conversation. So it's an interesting portfolio. And like most portfolios, there's always some good news, some bad news, some. Some things that are going better than expected, some things that are going far harder than you expected. But the biggest change of course is now setting ourselves up as a portfolio and building an enterprise marketing function with a combination of, you know, individual brand specific leaders and centers of excellence. And fortunately I've had experience doing this before but. But it's a different set of challenges and, and opportunities both totally.

A (24:38)

And I know that JC Penny has back to it which is its latest campaign. Is that the Back to School sort.

B (24:43)

Of black all under this new platform of yes, JCPenney. And it's yes, okay, simple platform in language. But I. What I love about it is it's so perfectly encapsulates the spirit of what we're just hanging. Like when I saw you in Cannes this summer, and I was walking down the Croisset and, you know, the main thoroughfare of Cannes, and everyone's all decked in their finest, and I was wearing, you know, people like, oh, I love your outfit. And I'm like, it's JCPenney. And you see people's eyes. And I, you know, and I think there is something really fun. I love that. I love democratizing great things for people that everyone, no matter what their socioeconomic situation, can afford fashion. Fashion. And not just cheap, but quality fashion, which is what we have at a really. At really great deals and own it. Not in be embarrassed, but to sort of feel smart. It makes me feel smart to be like, yeah, JCPenney and I, that's. That is frankly, as what we just. What I want to spread is just getting more people to have that discovery moment and then want to have that sense of sharing. Like we always want to, you know, scoop our friends on something, a great restaurant ever. So I hope that that's going to continue to permeate culture where people are having more of these, like, yes, JC Betty moments. So our back to school and back to it. You know, marketing is just a continuation of what we started only this spring. But really what I'm proud of is we're not storytelling it in the same, dare I say, kind of contrived way that a lot of retail marketing has fallen prey to. And for me, that that's actually really a delight when you get love that you're bottling that.

A (26:34)

That excitement and that. That almost like I'm an insider kind of feeling when you do. It's the art of discovery. I talk a lot about that.

B (26:41)

Sometimes it's the art of discovery and it's smart. And it. I have felt that some of my best marketing across my career has surprisingly chalked up to consumers versus talk down to them. Yeah, there is a lot of bad marketing out there because it's dumbed down and people are smarter than we give them credit for. And I think they like to be in on something smart.

A (27:06)

So.

B (27:06)

Well said.

A (27:06)

In the last several weeks, there has been another retailer who has come out with a campaign, spurred a lot of different kinds of thinking.

B (27:13)

Right.

A (27:14)

And not to go too deep into that, but as a cmo, and you watch what happened there, what do you take away from that kind of case study moment?

B (27:23)

So we're talking about a controversial one as opposed to a. Yeah, that's Correct. You know, there is a sort of oddly salacious aspect of the CMO world, which is why it gets written about. And I think you said before, we have a really strong community. And I really agree with that. And I think that means there's no sense of, you know, the phrase schadenfreude, like, you know, taking pleasure in other people's misery. I think that was, I mean, of course, our hindsight's always 20 20. So you, you look back at something that became controversial and it's like, well, how do they see that? But I, I think and, and there's been a lot said and written about it. It's what you do with it after it that matters most. Because as we all try to avoid missteps, we all try, but that goes.

A (28:11)

Back to how we started. And you have to take risks. You go out, you take, you make decisions. And I guess my question is around, does it give you pause or does it re. Have you rethink, you know.

B (28:22)

Oh, yeah, sure. It's always a reminder. I mean, especially because you're bringing up a retail competitor and we're about to launch something. And so I don't have a magic answer on this one, except say you just have to. It's just a reminder to bring diverse voices to the table to try to check your work, if you will. But then it's as much about your ability to use good judgment and rebound and goes back to that resilience thing. Brands can be resilient like humans, and this brand certainly will be, I believe.

A (28:58)

Absolutely. And by the way, campaigns still matter. People pay attention to campaign, you know. Yeah. Classic ad creative and, you know, so, and there's many, many ways of looking at it. But in the end, I just think it's, we're living in a time of everything that you do as marketers. It's all like, it's like real time case studies. It's everything you put out in the world. It's, you know, and, and that's where we, we learn every single day. And that's what I think is the most exciting part of this business. So, two last quick questions. Marissa, what's next for you for catalyst, for JCPenney? For any of the portfolio brands? What can we expect to see? We are sitting here on the. I mean, you're already well into back to school season, but holiday is coming up. Can you tease anything for us? Is there anything that we should pay attention to as we look to the remainder of the year?

B (29:46)

Yeah, well, let's see. We've announced this so I can say that we've can't wait to debut the marketing for the multi year collaboration we have with Ashley, Graham and JCPenney.

A (30:01)

That's so amazing.

B (30:02)

The work is honestly just, I think it's really groundbreaking and I'm really proud of it. So that's coming soon. There's a partnership that's coming that has never been done before. So I obviously can't say more. But stay tuned in September and you'll hear about that. And then, you know, look, we're, we're playing to win here. Playing to win. I'm playing to really, really. I think JCPenney deserves to be much more in the center of people's consideration and shopping, whether online or in stores. And we still have a considerable retail footprint. Not as many as once, but well over 600 stores across the United States and Puerto Rico. So lots of good stuff happening. And actually one more thing is we're bringing back our now it'll be year two of our really big deals program in a completely different way of going to market that is being shot as we speak. So some really exciting ways of being able to tell, shall we say, brand stories, but also drive, drive product, drive deals in a way that hopefully like allows those things to come together. So I'm very excited about that. And then all of our brands I think have some really great idea driven marketing coming for holiday. It's a whole bunch of stuff that's just happening this week between our lucky brand launch, our Eddie Bauer launch. So, you know, good stuff ahead in a very competitive market. And I think that's just the, the sobering part is no matter what every day is, you know, is a struggle.

A (31:37)

To get those economic headwinds too, as you described. I mean, you know, and there's a lot. But by the way, I love, love, love that you always wear the clothes you always have. You're so cheerful and positive and genuinely excited in the fact that you actually embrace and wear it because you're such a fashion icon yourself. You love fashion and you always address.

B (31:57)

To the knowledge deals more. So I love dealing.

A (32:00)

Perfect. So do I. By the way, last question. Who's next? Who is somebody that I should have on the podcast a CMO that you admire or somebody you know really well or somebody you admire from afar you've never met, but you would love to hear their story? Don't make me pick.

B (32:15)

I don't know, I can't name names. I mean there, there are just so many. What's interesting is now feeling like this slightly older big sister generation. And there are, as you see, a lot of emerging CMOs, some of whom I get to meet at various industry things. Others I don't know. And I think, you know, I hope you'll continue to balance the voices of those of us who've been doing this well, but try to keep it fresh and aren't, you know, like, I still have a lot of energy to give and a lot of lessons to share and it's also fun to hear new voices as well.

A (32:51)

Well, we'll get them on. And thank you so much, Marissa. As always. It's been a pleasure. Always love talking to you, learning from you. I think you dropped some incredible pearls of wisdom here.

B (33:00)

Thanks, Jen.

A (33:01)

Thanks. Good luck. We'll pay attention to what's to come from you and Catalyst.

B (33:06)

Well, the number one lesson is never say no when Jenny Rooney invites you to something. So there you go.

A (33:11)

Well, you're very sweet. Thank you. Thank you.

B (33:13)

Thanks Rab.

C (33:14)

Thank you for listening to Marketing Vanguard, part of the Adweek Podcast Network and Acast Creator Network. You can listen and subscribe to all of Adweek's podcasts by visiting adweek.com podcasts stay updated on all things Adweek Podcast Network by following us on Twitter dweek Podcasts. And if you have a question or suggestion for the show, send us an email@podcastadweek.com thanks for listening.

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