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Marketing Vanguard
Immersive Technologies and the Future of Marketing: Insights from Karina Kogan, CMO of Infinite Reality
00:31:53
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- [00:01]
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- [00:27]
Karina Kogan
We're in such a new blue sky in a very mature category where there's hundreds of competitors or even a dozen competitors when you're innovating, when you're building something new. Nobody at a disruptive company says our goal is to be a disruptive company.
- [00:47]
Jenny Rooney
Hi everyone and welcome to the Marketing Vanguard podcast. I'm Jenny Rooney with adweek and this is where I can talk to innovative and disruptive CMOs and marketing leaders. And today, today I'm joined by Karina Kogan. Thrilled to have you. Karina, welcome.
- [01:02]
Karina Kogan
Thanks so much. Happy to be here.
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Jenny Rooney
It's great to see you. You are the CMO of the infinite reality.
- [01:08]
Karina Kogan
Yeah.
- [01:09]
Jenny Rooney
And I'm going to get to having you explain what infinite reality is and what it does because I think it's obviously such an incredibly interesting company. But I would love for you to start by sharing with our listeners your career journey and what's really led you to this role now.
- [01:28]
Karina Kogan
Yeah, well, I started my career during the dot com bubble. So I started my career in the Bay Area in the late 90s and worked at both very mature publicly traded companies in the video game industry as well as startups that were venture backed and got to witness what it's like working in a really fast paced tech enabled industry where you're shipping product constantly. Because in the case of software you're constantly releasing content, right? Or updates or products or services. Whereas like when you work in consumer products or hardware, right. The product life cycle's very long. So very early in my career I got exposed to the thrill that is software technology and VC backed tech industry.
- [02:15]
Jenny Rooney
Did you have a marketing major coming out of college?
- [02:17]
Karina Kogan
No, I was a PolSci major.
- [02:20]
Jenny Rooney
Interesting.
- [02:21]
Karina Kogan
Which I always think actually are they're very similar. I actually think politics and marketing are actually quite similar. I wrote my senior thesis on propaganda.
- [02:30]
Jenny Rooney
Oh, very cool.
- [02:31]
Karina Kogan
Essentially it's like advertising, but in politics.
- [02:34]
Jenny Rooney
Listen, psychology too, right? I mean anything where you think about human behavior, human interaction, they're all related.
- [02:41]
Karina Kogan
I mean marketing is the art and science of communication and everybody should know how to communicate. I studied Pol Sci at Barnard in New York and then Moved to the Bay Area and worked there during that dot com bubble era. And then when the bubble burst, I moved down to Los Angeles. And the first person to hire me in LA at a company called iac, which is a Barry Diller company, was a guy named John Foley, who later became the founder and CEO of Peloton. So just kind of funny how relationships and contacts and just in general, life comes full circle and you never want to take any of those things for granted. Right. But yeah, so I worked in similar roles in la, left San Francisco, went down LA and continued to work in technology and was at Evite and citysearch in those early days, if you remember those businesses. Yeah, when they were quite popular, and made my way into media and entertainment because I was in la and that's where most of the job opportunities in Los Angeles, Louisiana was a little further behind San Francisco in terms of like, tech. But the convergence of tech and entertainment was definitely bubbling in Los Angeles. So I ended up moving into media and entertainment and eventually made my way into cable TV and was at Turner Broadcasting before and after the AT&T acquisition. I was a senior vice president of digital media and product development. So I oversaw the creation of all of the streaming applications, the TVE apps that were built for TBS and tnt, as well as managing the relationships with all the major platforms. I said marketing, but my job, and it's not dissimilar to what I do now at Infinite Reality and did at Peloton and then later as the CMO at Aura, which makes the Aura ring. My career throughout, even though I've sat in a marketing role, has always been about revenue generation, P and L management, driving business outcomes.
- [04:44]
Jenny Rooney
But it's interesting because you did go between marketing and media. I mean, they're not too. I mean, they're completely intertwined. But you've sort of sat on the two sides of that equation. Right. So you have great visibility into the dynamics there of obviously what makes for a great brand, how you drive consumer awareness, adoption and engagement, but also how you can harness media platforms and how media platforms play such a pivotal role in that brand success. So how long have you been at the Infinite Reality?
- [05:20]
Karina Kogan
I've been in Infinite Reality for about a year. It'll be a year in April. And I went from working in media to really building brands, consumer brands like Peloton, like Aura, P Volve, which is a Jennifer Aniston company, and Infinite Reality is in a consumer brand. It's B2B. The brand building has been sort of the last decade from Media to brand.
- [05:43]
Jenny Rooney
Well, let's talk about that transition to B2B because you're right, I mean all those brands you just named, very consumer facing. I mean in health and wellness, which is also an interesting little through thread. Then you came over to B2B. I mean, how has that transition been and how did you make that decision?
- [06:02]
Karina Kogan
Yeah, well, people always say like, oh, you know so much about health and wellness. I'm like, actually what attracted me to all those companies was actually technology. What I loved about the Peloton business and the reason I went to Peloton from cable, I went from cable to Peloton was because Peloton is a media company that uses technology to transform how people consume content. It happens to be fitness content delivered over a piece of hardware. But the reason Peloton was such a successful business and continues to be a successful business, albeit a little different, is because of the stickiness of the software hardware content combination. Right. And the fact that the media experience that you get on a Peloton bike is enhanced by the technology. The transition from cable television to Peloton was actually very seamless and they're both subscription businesses. Right, Interesting. And the same was when I left Peloton and went to Aura again. It was very much about how do you create really sticky experiences that enhance people's lives by using technology to better enable that experience. In the case of Aura, it was very much about health and wellness and specifically sleep. Like the reason Aura is such an incredible product is for people who want to track and better understand their sleep. Their combination of content, software and hardware really deliver on that promise of helping you get better rest, live a better life, feel more refreshed. And then the same was true of the in that instance, a very celebrity led brand. Obviously when you have Jennifer Aniston as the face of your company, nobody's focused on the tech in the brand, but a very benefits driven brand versus features led brand. So how did I end up in B2B, which was your question? One of the things that I experienced as someone running marketing and running specifically demand generation from Peloton to Aura to P Volvett is unless you work in direct to consumer or E commerce, you won't appreciate this. Or maybe you will. But conversion rates in E commerce are terrible. Unless you work at Amazon, the purchase journey or the efficiency of a purchase funnel is terrible. The average e commerce website has a conversion rate of roughly two and a half percent. Means you'll lose 97 and a half out of 100 people who visit your Site won't buy anything. And out of the two and a half out of those 200, which will actually make it to checkout, another 15% will return those products. It's really porous funnel. It's a very exhausting thing to chase that funnel. Like, how many slides have we all made about funnels? We're like, okay, people in. And then here's what we're going to do to optimize the middle of the funnel and the bottom of the funnel and get people at the top of the funnel at a lower rate more efficiently. And it's an exhausting and very, I would almost say, like broken space right now. And so as I started as a marketer looking for, like, how do you make this a more delightful experience, a more efficient experience, whether you're measuring your margin to cap ratio, your LTV to CAC ratio, the cost of the lead, whatever it is, how do you make that more efficient? How do you make buying something online better than two out of a hundred customers making it to checkout? And so the way I got to Infinite Reality was really I started to think about new platforms or new types of technology that help customers make purchase decisions, that things like augmented reality, virtual reality, artificial intelligence, new tech that helps customers on their path to purchase. And it's really, that's the story is really like my own search for benefits as a marketer led me to a B2B company that sells software.
- [09:48]
Jenny Rooney
Yeah, that's so fascinating. And did you turn right around and go work with those companies that you had been at? Because those were the companies that you got your experience from. But arguably you can go back and service the exact same brands that you had come from.
- [10:03]
Karina Kogan
Yeah, I know. I should, right? I should. And sell them some infinite reality SaaS product. No, but it's amazing. The companies that we've worked with, many of them are big part of the Fortune 1000. We actually recently acquired a company that's been very successful in the virtual showroom or virtual e commerce space called Obsess. They've worked with over 400 different brands from Crate and Barrel to Ralph Lauren to benefit cosmetics, all with an eye towards using immersion as a way to tell stories, create stickiness, drive engagement, and pull customers through to purchase. And what I discovered recently, through a lot of research that we've done, we just recently published a white paper. There's other white papers that have been published on this topic, but what I didn't even expect is as a marketer, when you're spending dollars, one of the things you're constantly asking yourself is how incremental is your spend? Right. Like, okay, so we spent money on TikTok, we spent money on Meta, we're doing attribution. We're finding out like, what made that customer purchase, how incremental was the dollars we spent here or there on a promotion. Like, if you run a sale, you're always asking yourself about incrementality. One of the things I've recently learned about what we do in immersion is that those dollars are legitimately incremental. Meaning. One study we did with a company called Coresight showed that of 150 marketers that were surveyed who invested in immersive experiences, they saw 67% more customers that they wouldn't have otherwise acquired through traditional channels. The reason is I think that younger consumers who are spending more time on places like Roblox than TikTok and Instagram combined are living in immersive 3D experiences 24 7. Yeah, yeah. And for them, like passive video in a feed is like very old school.
- [11:58]
Jenny Rooney
I have to ask you this question though. So these 3D immersive environments, right? So whether it's games or headset situation. I know, for example, during COVID I played Supernatural. I did Supernatural a lot as my exercise. Right. So you create these environments. We've gone through some phases of that. There was, if you want to go back, I remember, what were the worlds that you'd build in the mid-2000s? You could build your own second life. Life. Yeah. Like, yeah, there are precedents and there's been evolution and iterations. How would you characterize the journey of that? And sort of, where are we now?
- [12:38]
Karina Kogan
I love that question because I fully appreciate and I love the fact that you did Supernatural with a big headset. The analogy I like to use is, so a very long time ago, I used to work in like early phases of online video, like even before YouTube was bought by Google. And if you recall, like this is 2007, 2008, right. With what was true of online video, one was that most of online video, let's say on YouTube, was user generated content. Right? Skateboarding accidents, cute puppies, Diet Coke and Mentos, where the kids would throw the Mentos and some Diet Coke, shake it and have an exposure, whatever, stuff like that, right. So the quality of the content, the quality of the ugc, like for most older generations, Boomers Xers was like kind of weird. We were like, why would anybody watch that? Millennials and younger Xers, that content was super interesting and super sticky. Right. And Advertisers were really reluctant to spend dollars there. Marketers were really reluctant to spend dollars. They were like, oh well, ugc, it's not professional. We're gonna keep spending our money on television. What was preventing the scale of online video at the time? Few things. One is there were no creator tools to uplevel the quality of the content. Two is back then, a lot of the time video would still like stall. It didn't work well on mobile, sometimes you have to Download like a QuickTime player, right. It wasn't like ubiquitous. It wasn't easy. Right. It wasn't like you could just click or forget about autoplaying. Right. So the hardware was still not fully optimized for the modality, our computing power, the software, various video players weren't always compatible. And subsequently the quality of the content wasn't great because it wasn't easy or cheap to make stuff. And there was no easy way to monetize it because advertisers didn't want to go there. Fast forward to today and like YouTube, I think delivers more ad inventory than Netflix and Disney probably combined. Right. And I'm not sure, don't quote me on that stat, but they are definitely winning, right? The digital advertising game. And so what I think we're in the same place right now where the hardware is getting better, the compute's getting better, the devices are getting smaller. Like the Ray Bans are a lot more convenient than the Meta Quest, right? And the hardware is going to get cheaper and cheaper and the power of the browser, like pretty soon you're not really going to need headsets to consume 3D media. And that's what we're doing. We're really focused on delivering these experiences in the browser. So basic agnostic, you can consume on a computer, on your mobile device, on a tablet or on a headset. So I think once the hardware, the software get better, which they will, there will be more content produced, that content will get stickier and more professional. And these new generations, just like millennials were on YouTube in 2008 who are growing up on Roblox, this is going to be their format of preference.
- [15:47]
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- [16:48]
Jenny Rooney
So because you were a CMO at those consumer brands, how are you having conversations now that you're here with folks who are at consumer brands to get them to understand the opportunity that you feel this creates for them because you speak their language. Right. I mean, you were there, you were on the consumer brand side. And what are some of the, whether real or perceived roadblocks that you think marketers still have in really getting into and investing in selling in immersive environments?
- [17:21]
Karina Kogan
Well, I am a marketer. I do speak to marketers in their own terms and terms like I described like, okay, let's talk about incrementality and how these dollars can go further for you or how the dollars you're currently spending on some of these other places are just not reaching these net new consumers. You look at some of the news that Walmart recently made about their various investments in virtual experiences, unlimited realms, et cetera. There's a reason why Walmart is making these experiences, I might say, to Target. Right. Or whoever. Right. And it's because as marketers, we like to talk about meet the consumer where they are. Well, what does that literally mean? What does that mean? It means meet them and in places and formats that they like to consume and where they're spending their time. So 3D worlds, immersive worlds, is not a fringe concept. Right. So I talk to them about incrementality. I also talk to them about the purchase funnel. Marketers understand that if you make an experience for a consumer more sticky, that the more time a consumer spends with your content, the more likely. Right. They are going to make a purchase decision and the consideration time. Right. And so I don't think it takes a lot of convincing for a marketer to understand why a consumer might spend more time in immersion 2D grid, clicking from the homepage to the PDP, clicking the back button. Right.
- [18:47]
Jenny Rooney
A lot of it's very intuitive as far as what works and what doesn't.
- [18:52]
Karina Kogan
Yeah. There was another study done by a company called Mindshare where they looked at actually like the brain waves of A consumer using augmented reality versus a standard 2D digital experience. And what they found was like your brain literally lights up and then the likelihood that you have higher recall of a experience that you were more emotionally or viscerally connected to is higher. So I think there's a lot of data. Will marketers love data. There's a lot of data that point to why immersion makes sense for a brand. And I think, like you said, the headset is clunky and the this is weird. And like I said, I think our job at Infinite Reality and other companies playing in this space is to remove all the barriers. Remove all the barriers of technology. Right. Using things like AI. Right. We know that AI is going to make software soon. Right. Really fast. And so it's going to continue to. We're going to continue to remove barriers from making the kinds of experiences that we know will delight customers and help them. Like say, I love this thing, I want to buy it because I just spent 20 minutes or 30 minutes playing with it versus an average of 90 seconds, like scrolling past it or less.
- [20:06]
Jenny Rooney
Are there some categories of marketers for whom this makes more sense now than others?
- [20:11]
Karina Kogan
Yeah, I mean, I think brands versus like super commodity type products. I think brands who have a story to tell or companies with products that require some education and you're spending a lot of time and money retargeting a customer just to get them back. Like, when I was at Peloton, we did a lot of work on like, what are all the things we need to tell a consumer to convince them that the investment in a $2,000 piece of hardware and a $40 a month subscription is worth it? Because it's. They're not going to make that decision, like just by clicking once. Right. They want to, is it going to fit in my space? Am I going to use it enough? Is it going to end up being cheaper or more expensive than my gym membership? Right. So when you have a lot to tell a consumer to help them make a decision, I think immersion is super helpful.
- [21:04]
Jenny Rooney
Sure. And I also think it's an opportunity to try before you buy. So, like maybe with travel or with a car, am I simplifying it too much to say, can you do a virtual test drive? Or those kinds of opportunities?
- [21:21]
Karina Kogan
I think what you're touching on is considered purchases, which I think is a great category. Like things that require a high degree of consideration. Like a car is a great way to put it. Travel is a phenomenal category because you're always like, what is the first thing you do when you think about a place you want to go, you go, you look at pictures, people look at pictures. Yeah. So if we've been actually, our enterprise division has been doing a lot of work with governments across the world, particularly in the Middle east, where there's a high degree of interest among the like, ministries of tourism to use like digital twins of places as a way to like lure. Right. Potential tourists to like see where it is that they can go and drive affinity and interest in a place.
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Jenny Rooney
So cool. Can you share a couple examples of some marketers that you're working with and what you've done for them, what you've brought to life for them?
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Karina Kogan
Yeah. We recently launched an experience with the cosmetics brand benefit.
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Jenny Rooney
Yep. Beauty brands are killing it. I mean, so much innovation there, which is amazing.
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Karina Kogan
Yeah. We also not long ago launched an experience with J. Crew as well that offers you to explore different styles in the space. Dress a mannequin so you can create various outfits.
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Jenny Rooney
And now is that something that you can Access through J. Crew.com do you put it within their web space or how does that work?
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Karina Kogan
Yeah, do web experiences and VR experiences. The Apple Vision Pro, for example, we've done a number of experiences for that platform as well.
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Jenny Rooney
Very cool.
- [23:02]
Karina Kogan
And this shoppable virtual closet from J. Crew is on the Apple Vision Pro. But there's a web based experience you can explore. For Crate and Barrel, we created like a digital twin of a Ralph Lauren store in the Hamptons where you can like walk through the store and see this iconic location. Like I said, we do stuff for specific platforms like those headsets as well as through web based experiences that anybody could click on and go explore and.
- [23:29]
Jenny Rooney
Then so you can customize, you can be flexible per the client needs. Where do you go from here? We talk about meeting consumers where they are, but also meeting your marketers where they are. What are marketers increasingly asking for that you all are working to deliver?
- [23:44]
Karina Kogan
Well, certainly gamification I think comes up quite a bit. Right. Like how do we not just create 3D virtual environments that are immersive and cool to look at and spend time in, but how do we bring more stickiness through games? Loyalty, like, how do you connect this to a loyalty program so there's like a reason to come back or there's a reward for your attention. We often are asked to do just also integrations with whatever payment gateways people are using. So there's just some practicality sometimes involved in what we have to build just to make it more seamless for the brand to be able to plug their existing martech stack into this new format. Another thing we're exploring a lot, and this is new, is making experiences embeddable in an existing 2D space. For example, a lot of these virtual experiences that we've built, they have their own URL, right? They're a website and you have to link to it or drive traffic to it. We all know about how much everybody loves driving traffic. Like, we always ask, okay, I make that, but then how do I drive traffic to it? Oh, you got to get an influencer. But how do we actually put these experiences into environments where there is already traffic as opposed to having to create a new wave of traffic? And so we've been building out the ability to make these experiences embeddable into your existing website. So if you're on a homepage, rather than having to click off, like, why not just walk into the 3D space? 2D space. So blending 3D and 2D. Right? Like deeper integrations, kind of creating more seamless connectivity between place to place is also something marketers are asking for.
- [25:24]
Jenny Rooney
And you're white labeling this, right? Like the infinite reality name is not visible to the consumer. They're just going to J. Crew and they see it as a J. Crew.
- [25:32]
Karina Kogan
Yeah, I feel strongly about this for my other marketers in crime, the marketing mafia, because there's some similar software providers out there and they insist on burning their logo, like powered by whatever into your thing. And I just find that like such a break of the fourth wall. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, well, this is your store. This is your store, J. Crew or whoever. We have a product, a self service product that's designed for SMBs. And then our enterprise solution, which is for the major brands, where we go in and we design and build and manage everything for you. And I just feel like it should never feel like someone else is in the room with the customer because then you're like introducing like, what's this? Who's that? It's a distraction.
- [26:15]
Jenny Rooney
Yeah, yeah, it's a distraction.
- [26:16]
Karina Kogan
So no, I don't.
- [26:18]
Jenny Rooney
I love that. I think that's great insight. And again, that's something that I think only you having been on working with consumer brands, would appreciate and push for. Because at the end of the day, it's all about the consumer experience. And they don't want to feel like there's in any way a break in that if they've chosen to engage with J. Crew, they want to feel like they're in a job J. Crew environment.
- [26:36]
Karina Kogan
So totally and part of the reason the brands often do these things all is also because in many cases they want to be seen as cool and innovative and forward thinking and avant garde and like we're stealing from their innovation if we put our logo on it.
- [26:52]
Jenny Rooney
Yeah. How big of a team do you have there? How many folks are working with you on the marketing team and what kind of budget do you have? And I mean you don't have to name numbers, of course, but how has that translated?
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Karina Kogan
So we're really small. We're like two dozen.
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Jenny Rooney
Are they traditional marketing rules?
- [27:08]
Karina Kogan
Yes. I'm a very traditional old school person. I love like a good brief and a nice go to market deck and a good dashboard. Everything's very traditional. Actually. When I was at Peloton we had a phenomenal, what I would call great marketing hygiene and all of my templates and plays. Like so much of that I brought over from my time there because they worked. But yeah, so the team is from places like traditional agencies or traditional brands or even like digital brands. Like the VP of marketing on Studio was at Headspace and Prior and Starbucks. So I know supposed to like break the mold and go find talent weird places. But I still fall into old traps of looking for people who know how to, who know how to run the plays.
- [27:55]
Jenny Rooney
Love it. A fun question I typically ask just to get a sense of who you are as a leader and how you sort of play and lead and direct your team. Using the soccer pitch as a metaphor, what kind of a player are you? Striker, Defensive player? Or are you sort of at that midfield line trying to connect dots between the offensive line trying to score goals and the defensive line trying to protect against the onslaught of competition.
- [28:22]
Karina Kogan
I don't know anything about soccer, so everything you just said went right over my head.
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Jenny Rooney
When you want to defend winning versus.
- [28:29]
Karina Kogan
Someone else, I don't care. Winning meaning let we set out a set of objectives and goals and like we need to hit certain metrics. Like what is a business. We have to make money, we have to hit. Right. So to me, winning is hitting on those things or figuring out why he didn't hit and finding another way in. Right. Designing the next play, to use your metaphor. But 100% nobody likes to lose. I don't care. Like when we're kids of a mom tells you like it's not whether you want to lose, it's how you play the game. Yes, it's how you play the game and win.
- [29:00]
Jenny Rooney
But I also think it also inherent the question is around this concept of how obsessed with you are with competition. And what I'm hearing from you is not very much.
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Karina Kogan
We're in such a new blue sky in a very mature category where there's hundreds of competitors or even a dozen competitors when you're innovating, when you're building something new. Nobody at a disruptive company says our goal is to be a disruptive company. But those disruptive companies, what makes them disruptive is they don't look at how everybody else is doing it. They find a new way to do something everybody else has been doing the old way. And so I actually discovered discourage overly studying competition because I actually think it kills creativity and kills innovation. I think you do need peripheral vision as a marketer. In particular, you need to understand where else are your customers spending their money and what trade offs they need to make if they're going to spend with you versus who. You can talk to them in a way that lures them to you, but it's not about copying your competition or overly studying them. I think it's about context and having context for like the four Cs, right, that category, Company, culture and consumer. What are those four Cs? What is the context in which you're operating? And so it is important to like see around you that I don't believe in winning against somebody.
- [30:27]
Jenny Rooney
Could not agree more. I'm of the same mind, so appreciate that and well said. The last final question is, who's next? Who else should I have on the podcast? Who's somebody who you admire, a CMO and a brand that you think is doing really cool, innovative things? It could be somebody you know really well or it can be somebody that you admire from afar.
- [30:47]
Karina Kogan
Oh my gosh. There's so many people that I admire from afar and not from afar. Well, one person I worked for a long time ago who I admire a ton is a guy named Michael Engelman, who is the CMO at Paramount plus and Showtime. And one person who I admire from afar. Well, everybody admires them from afar. But I really have been obsessed with liquid death forever.
- [31:16]
Jenny Rooney
Love that.
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Karina Kogan
I just love how free and clever and just fearless that team is. And the work they put out is just so entertaining. Right? Like, well, how do you sell water? Oh, this is a great example of the competition thing that you said. Right. If you were a water company and your competitive advantage or edge is that you are in a can and that's how you marketed. But we're in a can so we have a lower carbon footprint, they would have lost. Yeah, so they could have lost and they just said, screw it. No, we're not water. We're liquid death. And so they have an incredible business. So I love what they're doing, but I don't know their marketing leadership personally.
- [32:00]
Jenny Rooney
I'm trying to suss it out and invite them on. You're actually not the first person who's recommended them, obviously. They're just this incredible example, I think, of just completely unabashed innovation. And to your point, they do what they think is best, full stop.
- [32:16]
Karina Kogan
Yeah. They know who they are and they just live it. And it's a beautiful thing. It's paying off. And you can see now they're expanding. Like there's a product diversification that's happening. So I'm curious how far they're going to take it. Right. Because there's only so far you can go with water before you, like, do coffee, whatever, you know, or energy drinks. I want to see how they're going to scale it. But as a brand, I think they've built a phenomenal brand.
- [32:41]
Jenny Rooney
Alrighty, we'll make that happen. Karina, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a pleasure as always, and I look forward to the next time we're together, which hopefully will be very soon.
- [32:50]
Karina Kogan
Yeah, me too. Thanks for the time.
- [32:52]
Jenny Rooney
Take care.
- [32:53]
Ad Sponsor
Bye.
- [32:54]
Karina Kogan
Thank you for listening to Marketing Vanguard, part of the Adweek Podcast Network and Acast Creator Network. You can listen and subscribe to all of Adweek's podcasts by visiting adweek.com podcasts. Stay updated on all things Adweek Podcast.
- [33:07]
Jenny Rooney
Network by following us on Twitter Dweek Podcast.
- [33:11]
Karina Kogan
And if you have a question or suggestion for the show, send us an email@podcastdweek.com thanks for listening.
- [33:21]
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