A housing reality check

Summary

Marketplace Podcast Episode Summary: "A Housing Reality Check"
Release Date: February 26, 2025

In the February 26, 2025 episode of Marketplace, host Kai Ryssdal delves into the intertwined issues of consumer confidence, inflation expectations, housing market dynamics, and the broader economic implications of tariffs. The episode features insights from economists, industry experts, and business owners, providing a comprehensive overview of the current economic landscape.

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1. Consumer Confidence and Inflation Concerns

Kai Ryssdal opens the episode by highlighting the latest Consumer Confidence Index from the Conference Board, which has shown a significant decline. This downturn indicates growing consumer apprehension about income stability, business conditions, and the job market. The declining Consumer Expectations Index suggests that consumers are increasingly worried about worsening inflation over the next year.

Notable Quote:

• [00:00] Kai Ryssdal: "If we've learned anything in the first couple of months of 2025, it's that we don't always know exactly what's coming next or how it's going to affect the economy and everybody in it."

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2. The Impact of Tariffs on Inflation Expectations

Sabri Benishore reports on the rising concerns among consumers regarding the potential imposition of tariffs on goods from Mexico, Canada, Panama, Denmark, Greenland, and other countries. Economists like Alan Detmeister from UBS express worry that these tariffs could exacerbate inflationary pressures by altering consumer behavior and increasing production costs.

Notable Quotes:

• [02:02] Sabri Benishore: "Alan Detmeister is an economist at UBS. There were even tariffs floated on, you know, Panama and Denmark and Greenland."
• [02:57] Sabri Benishore: "David Miracle is chief US Economist at Goldman Sachs. He says the most dangerous kinds of inflation expectations are the ones created by living with actual inflation."

Omer Sharif, president of Inflation Insights, discusses the theoretical risks of inflation expectations becoming self-fulfilling prophecies. However, current observations suggest that while certain treasury bonds are reflecting higher inflation expectations, the feared surge in consumer-driven inflation is not materializing yet.

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3. Housing Market Dynamics

The episode transitions to the housing market, referencing the Case-Shiller Home Price Index, which reported a 3.9% national increase in December. Compared to the pandemic-induced surge of nearly 19% three years prior, this growth is deemed more manageable by experts like Sam Chandin from NYU Stern School of Business.

Notable Quotes:

• [05:09] Samantha Fields: "This time three years ago, home prices had risen almost 19% year over year. Compared to that, Sam Chandin at NYU Stern School of Business says 3.9% is more manageable."
• [05:27] Samantha Fields: "There's been a lot of new construction and Shandon says that has helped back balance supply and demand and slow price growth."

Regional disparities are evident, with the Northeast experiencing the fastest home price increases, driven by limited new inventory and high demand. Factors such as rising insurance costs due to climate change also influence buyer decisions, particularly in Sunbelt markets like Florida.

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4. Home Renovation and Construction Trends

Home Depot's latest earnings report reveals a 1% growth in same-store sales, indicating a potential normalization in the home renovation sector after the volatile pandemic period. Greg Portel, a retail consultant with Carney, suggests that while sales are stabilizing, overall growth remains cautious.

Notable Quotes:

• [07:45] Samantha Fields: "The renovation market has been on a roller coaster since the pandemic, from stay-at-home spending sprees to high interest rate retrenchment."
• [08:04] Omer Sharif: "I'm seeing a lot of people interested in moving forward with projects that they've been thinking about for months or even years."

The hesitancy to engage in large-scale remodels is attributed to high home prices and mortgage rates, which have slowed down home sales nationwide. Michael Baker from DA Davids notes that a slow housing market is likely to keep growth in home renovations subdued.

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5. The Controversy of Book Blurbs

Constance Grady from Vox discusses the burgeoning controversy surrounding book blurbs—the testimonials and endorsements found on book covers. Authors, editors, and publicists often solicit blurbs from established authors to boost a book's marketability. However, this practice has become burdensome for successful authors who receive numerous requests, leading to frustration and doubts about the effectiveness of blurbs in influencing readers.

Notable Quotes:

• [10:36] Kai Ryssdal: "For those unfamiliar with the blurb economy and first of all, there is a blurb economy, right? How does it work? Where do these things come from?"
• [12:25] Constance Grady: "I have never seen any studies showing that readers care about these things or anything like that."

Grady argues that while blurbs may hold value for book critics and industry professionals, they often do not impact the average reader's purchasing decisions. The debate raises questions about the necessity and future of blurbs in the publishing industry.

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6. Market Updates and Energy Tariffs

The episode provides a snapshot of the stock market, noting movements in major indexes and specific companies. Notably, tariffs introduced by President Trump, such as a 10% tax on energy imports from Canada, are poised to increase energy costs in regions like New England and New York.

Notable Quotes:

• [26:52] Kai Ryssdal: "The actual details of the tariffs that President Trump has been promising are scant."
• [25:15] Constance Grady: "Consumer confidence had its sharpest monthly decline since 2021, which means we're all in our feels about money."

Sabri Benishore reports on the implications of these tariffs for utilities and consumers, emphasizing the direct rate impacts and the challenges utilities face in mitigating increased costs.

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7. Energy Dependency and Infrastructure

Sabri Benishore explores Vermont Electric Co Op's reliance on Hydro Quebec for electricity supply. The partnership underscores the strategic importance of Canadian energy to the New England grid, especially as regions integrate more renewable energy sources like solar and wind.

Notable Quotes:

• [17:54] Sabri Benishore: "Right now, that was about 40% of the utility's total needs at that moment, pretty average, Towne says."
• [20:16] Kai Ryssdal: "The Northeast states shouldn't see Quebec as a net exporter of electricity, but as a big battery to help balance their own market."

The planned expansion of transmission lines aims to enhance energy security and efficiency, allowing Quebec to act as a reservoir of power that can be tapped into during peak demand or when renewable sources are insufficient.

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8. Entrepreneurship Amid Economic Uncertainty

Howard Burke, president and co-founder of Ellijay Mushrooms in Georgia, shares his entrepreneurial journey and the financial challenges faced by his business. Despite achieving profitability, Burke highlights the difficulties in scaling operations due to unpredictable costs and the necessity of securing grants or additional funding to expand.

Notable Quotes:

• [23:00] Omer Sharif: "We're just trying to find funding for it. Currently, we are working with a grant writer for the Value Add Producer grant."
• [24:56] Kai Ryssdal: "Howard Burke, president and co founder of Ellijay Mushrooms in Ellijay, Georgia."

Burke emphasizes the importance of maintaining a sustainable business model that supports local employees and adapts to fluctuating market conditions.

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9. Final Thoughts on Tariffs and Economic Policy

In his closing remarks, Kai Ryssdal touches upon the continuation of tariff policies under Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962. The impending tariffs on steel and aluminum, along with potential investigations into copper tariffs, signal ongoing trade tensions that could further influence economic stability and consumer prices.

Notable Quote:

• [25:15] Kai Ryssdal: "Household Inflation remained a key topic, but as we wrapped up the show, we turned our attention back to tariffs—a term you are probably tired of hearing."

Ryssdal underscores the uncertain future of economic policies and their potential ramifications on both domestic markets and international trade relations.

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This episode of Marketplace provides a multifaceted examination of current economic issues, blending expert analysis with real-world implications for consumers and businesses alike. From the intricacies of inflation expectations and the housing market to the nuanced debates within the publishing industry, the discussion offers listeners a thorough understanding of the factors shaping today's economy.

Transcript

[Kai Rysdal]

If we've learned anything in the first couple of months of 2025, it's that we don't always know exactly what's coming next or how it's going to affect the economy and everybody in it. As always, Marketplace is focused on covering each new development in ways that are meaningful and relevant to you. This is our March fundraiser. So please help us plan for an uncertain future by donating today. We need to know that you're with us. Go to marketplace.org donate one word, three syllables. Something you are probably sick and tired of hearing about. From American Public Media, this is Marketplace in Los Angeles. I'm Kai Rysdal. It is Tuesday today, the 25th of February. Good as always to have you along, everybody. Had you been thinking somehow that as we sit here five years after the onset of the pandemic, with supply chains mostly back to normal consumer demand in line with what it was in the before times and the Federal Reserve having cranked up interest rates, if you had been thinking that maybe you could be done with hearing stories about inflation, well, then this program today maybe isn't for you because let me explain. We got the February consumer Confidence index from the conference board today and it wasn't great. The Consumer Expectations Index, what we all think about income and business conditions in the job market, dropped significantly also, and to the point of what I was saying, consumers also believe inflation is going to get worse in the next 12 months. And those inflation expectations can be a dangerous thing as marketplaces. Sabri Benishore reports to get us going.

[Sabri Benishore]

Consumers are starting to get a little freaked out by all the talk about.

[Kai Rysdal]

Tariffs, tariffs on Mexico, on tariffs on Canada, reciprocal tariffs across the board.

[Sabri Benishore]

Alan Detmeister is an economist at ubs. There were even tariffs floated on, you know, Panama and Denmark and Greenland. And all this is a concern because it could get into the inflation psychology. And people are hearing this and are like, oh, tariffs are coming. They're going to push up inflation a lot in surveys. Republicans are less or not concerned about inflation, Democrats much more concerned. But the numbers aren't totally partisan. Independents are also worried.

[Omer Sharif]

You can see it in the market as well.

[Sabri Benishore]

Omer Sharif is president of Inflation Insights. He says certain treasury bonds have started to price in higher inflation and expectations can be dangerous, at least in theory, because they can become a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Omer Sharif]

If you think prices are going to rise, it might drive you to sort of make those purchases today instead of waiting for those higher prices, which causes a jump in demand, which itself can lead to higher prices.

[Sabri Benishore]

That does not appear to be happening, Sharif says. And it's debatable whether this theory is reality. Right now, I would be a lot more worried about inflation expectations rising on the back of high actual inflation. David Miracle is chief US Economist at Goldman Sachs. He says the most dangerous kinds of inflation expectations are the ones created by living with actual inflation.

[Kai Rysdal]

If inflation is high enough for long.

[Sabri Benishore]

Enough and it becomes part of your.

[Kai Rysdal]

Daily experience that you get used to.

[Sabri Benishore]

It and it becomes self perpetuating. The tariffs haven't hit prices for most goods yet, so Merkel is less worried about psychology for now. But our brains may be soaking in tariff inflation talk for a while again. Omer Sharif, quite honestly, this could very.

[Omer Sharif]

Much linger into the fall because you will get these constant updates on what's happening with these investigations and individual nations.

[Sabri Benishore]

And of course, psychology aside, the potential for tariffs to raise actual prices is very real. In New York, I'm Sabri Benishore for.

[Kai Rysdal]

Marketplace Real indeed, Wall Street. Today the math kind of goes like this. A lot of money moved out of stocks, so equity indexes generally down. A lot of that money went into bonds, which means bond prices went up and that means bond yields went which way now? Anyone? Anyone down? We'll have the details when we do the numbers. We're gonna do a little homes segment here, a little real estate. First, the all important update that we got from the benchmark Case Shiller Home Price Index, which was out this morning nationally up 3.9% in December. A lot. Yes. But if I might paraphrase Alan Greenspan this, there is some regional froth in the American real estate market marketplace. Samantha Fields has that one.

[Samantha Fields]

This time three years ago, home prices had risen almost 19% year over year. Compared to that, Sam Chandin at NYU Stern School of Business says 3.9% is more manageable.

[Omer Sharif]

But even these relatively small increases are on the top of generationally high levels.

[Samantha Fields]

Of prices in some Sunbelt markets that saw big spikes early in the pandemic. There's been a lot of new construction and Shandon says that has helped back balance supply and demand and slow price growth. In addition, there's anecdotal evidence that some.

[Omer Sharif]

Home buyers in Florida and elsewhere may be thinking also about the impact of.

[Samantha Fields]

Climate change, not necessarily worrying about the next major hurricane, he says, but about rising insurance costs.

[Sabri Benishore]

Part of the competitive advantage for some.

[Omer Sharif]

Of these markets historically has been that they're much more affordable than the Northeast, than California.

[Samantha Fields]

But as home prices and insurance costs have gone up in Florida, he says, some of that affordability advantage has disappeared. Brian Luke at S and P. Dow Jones says home prices are now rising fastest in the Northeast, a switch from early in the pandemic.

[Omer Sharif]

Less volatility in those markets, more of a slow plodding upward.

[Samantha Fields]

The Northeast has long been expensive with consistently high demand. Ali Wolf at Zonda says one reason prices keep rising there is there's not much new inventory.

[Constance Grady]

There's not much developable land. It's expensive. There's a lot of regulation.

[Kai Rysdal]

And so you're not finding that homebuilders.

[Constance Grady]

Can come into the market, increase supply and help with home price appreciation.

[Samantha Fields]

And nationally, Sam Chandin at NYU says there are other structural factors keeping prices high.

[Omer Sharif]

The cost of construction labor of softwood.

[Sabri Benishore]

Lumber, the potential for disputes with our.

[Omer Sharif]

Trading partners to inflate the cost of some of the materials that we use in home building.

[Samantha Fields]

These are all features of the housing market that he says aren't going away anytime soon. I'm Samantha Fields for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

So let's say you've been able to buy a house and you want to do some work on it. Where are you going to go? One of those big home supply stores, Probably Home Depot for our purposes today, which last quarter posted gains in same store sales for the first time in two years. So we learned in their earnings report this morning. Hd, as the stock ticker has it, is a bellwether for the home renovation and construction business, which like the housing market has been chilled by inflation and interest rates. That upswing in sales I mentioned, well, they did beat expectations, but the outlook is not all positive. As Marketplace's Megan McCarty Carino reports, the.

[Samantha Fields]

Renovation market has been on a roller coaster since the pandemic, from stay at home spending sprees to high interest rate retrenchment. Home Depot sales grew by about 1% last quarter, which seems to show things are normalizing, says Greg Portel, a retail consultant with Carney.

[Omer Sharif]

I think it is important not to confuse normalization with all of a sudden an uptick. Normalization just allows consumers to have some certainty.

[Samantha Fields]

Nick Spector, the owner of Allaire Homes in Houston, has noticed a change in his customers as the shock of inflation and higher interest rates has receded.

[Omer Sharif]

We're seeing a lot of people, you know, interested in moving forward with projects that they've been thinking about for months or even years.

[Samantha Fields]

In a lot of cases, generally there's been an uptick in smaller scale renovations. Specter says many homeowners decided to stay put instead of looking for a new house. High prices and mortgage rates have slowed down home sales nationwide, which puts a dent in large scale remodels.

[Kai Rysdal]

When somebody moves into a new home.

[Omer Sharif]

There'S typically something that they want to do, whether it's we need to blow out these walls and do some major changes.

[Samantha Fields]

A slow housing market will likely keep growth in home renovations low, says Michael Baker, managing director at DA Davids.

[Omer Sharif]

I don't think we're out of the woods yet as it relates to the housing market, but it doesn't seem to be getting worse and in fact bouncing along the bottom and maybe even getting.

[Kai Rysdal]

A little bit better, he says.

[Samantha Fields]

Even if the Fed doesn't cut interest rates as quickly as once hoped, rates are unlikely to go up anytime soon. Though the new administration has introduced some uncertainties, says Carney's Greg Portel.

[Omer Sharif]

The challenge for consumers is going to.

[Sabri Benishore]

Be how do you interpret the headlines.

[Omer Sharif]

On things like tariffs, on things like trade, on things like immigration?

[Samantha Fields]

If costs for construction, labor and raw materials are unpredictable, normalization gets a whole lot harder. I'm Megan McCarty Carino for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

You know, when you go to an actual bookstore, this happens on Amazon, too. Those quotes on the back cover or if you scroll down on a book page on Amazon, those blurbs that say something nice about the pages within, quotes like revelatory or I couldn't put it down, attributed to various celebrities and big names. Well, that whole book blurb business is getting some attention. Constance Grady wrote about it for a Vox the other day. Constance, welcome to the program.

[Constance Grady]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Kai Rysdal]

For those unfamiliar with the blurb economy and first of all, there is a blurb economy, right? How does it work? Where do these things come from?

[Constance Grady]

Yeah, absolutely. So blurbs are those little testimonials that you see on a book's cover, usually from another author saying, you know, luminous masterpiece, the best I've read in a while. Those little testimonials are at the middle of a big controversy right now.

[Kai Rysdal]

Well, discuss what kind of controversy.

[Constance Grady]

Yeah, so the way blurbs work is that some combination of an author, an editor, a publicist will reach out while the book is getting copy edit, kind of making its way down the production line to try to get some blurbs from famous authors, make it have a big splashy entree when it comes out. And what that means is if you're a successful author, you get tons and tons of requests for blurbs every single day. Most authors want to pay it forward. They've received good blurbs when they were starting out. They want to help out. But this is an enormous amount of blurbs that you're being asked to write. And on the end of the author who's trying to get their book published, it's a lot of famous people to try to reach out to and most likely hear a no from. So there's been a bunch of authors and publishers lately saying, hey, this is hugely time consuming. It's an incredibly emotional process. What would happen if we stopped doing all this?

[Kai Rysdal]

Yeah, well, wait. So, yes, what would happen? I don't know that there's a single. That's probably not true. There are probably readers who flip. I personally, as a reader, I look at the back cover of a book, I don't read the blurbs. I look to see who did the blurbing and I go, huh, interesting. But it has no effect on whether or not I buy the book. So do you know whether. Sorry, I'm a little agitated about this. Do you know whether readers actually use these things?

[Constance Grady]

So I have never seen any studies showing that readers care about these things or anything like that. I know that before I became a book critic and started having to read professionally, I found blurbs a little annoying. I was kind of like, I just want to know what the book's about. Why are you using up this real estate?

[Kai Rysdal]

Right.

[Constance Grady]

I think blurbs are really handy for people like me now who have to read professionally because there are so many books coming out every year that you simply just don't have time to carefully evaluate each book before you decide how much attention you're going to give it. We are basically the end audience of these blurbs. They exist for us to figure out what to do.

[Kai Rysdal]

So authors are annoyed by it. Authors who write the books, authors who are asked to be blurbing are annoyed by it. Publishers are annoyed by it. But you need them. Is that where we are?

[Constance Grady]

I mean, I would make do without them. I don't want to. As a reader, I would certainly much rather that authors spend their time writing good books than having to deal with this whole sort of emotional labyrinth of reaching out and making requests and saying no and read and reading books that you probably aren't that interested in and scraping together a few lines like, that's not really serving anyone except me, but I will live without it.

[Kai Rysdal]

Fair enough. Yeah, you'll pay that price. There's no requirement that people actually have read the book right when they blurb.

[Constance Grady]

Basically, no. It's kind of an honor system situation. And a lot of authors will admit, I don't read everything I blurb. I maybe read, you know, the first and last chapter and kind of hope for the best from there.

[Kai Rysdal]

Totally. So what happens, do you think? Do blurbs eventually go the way of the dodo or what?

[Constance Grady]

Well, the main thing that blurbs do for the authors who do want them to stick around is blurbs can be kind of an equalizer. The way publishing is set up right now, most of the resources in marketing and publicity end up getting saved for just a few books who publishers hope will do really, really well. And the rest of the books kind of have to scrounge for what's left. And blurbs are one of the things that if you're an author, it's one of those things that you can kind of use like it's a magic shield and be like, I can't control anything else about my book's debut, but I can control this.

[Kai Rysdal]

Right.

[Constance Grady]

And so I think for that reason a lot of authors are going to want to keep trying to get blurbs and hope that they will make a difference.

[Kai Rysdal]

Fair enough. Constance Grady at Vox. Constance, thanks so much for your time. I appreciate it.

[Constance Grady]

Thank you.

[Omer Sharif]

Coming up, cut down a tree, inoculate it and then you could grow mushrooms in your backyard.

[Kai Rysdal]

Boom, you're in business. But first, let's do the numbers. Dow industrials up 159 today, four 10%, 43,621. The Nasdaq went the other way, down 260 points, one and a third percent. 19,026 there. The S&P 500 off 28 points, a half percent, 59 and 55. Zoom plunged 8.5% today after projecting slower than expected revenue growth. Microsoft down 1.5%. Home Depot surged 2.8% today. Lowe's gained about 2 and 2, 10%. Fabric and crafts supply chain Joanne says it's going to close all of its 800 odd stores. It couldn't find a buyer to keep them open. Company had about 19,000 employees, most of them part time workers went to file for Chapter 11 protection back in January. Bond prices, as I mentioned, up the Yield on the 10 year T note down 4.30%. You're listening to Marketplace. If you want to be savvy about the economy, the Marketplace newsletter is just what you need. Every Friday you'll get explainers and analysis that make sense of everything from the moving markets to grocery prices. No jargon, no hype, just smart takes delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail] subscribe this is Marketplace. I'm Kai Rysdal with the caveat that actual details of the tariffs that President Trump has been promising are scant. One thing he did roll out and then delayed earlier this month was a 10% tax on energy coming from Canada. That is obviously going to make energy more expensive for some, including people throughout New England and New York, because some of their gas, oil and electricity does come from north of the border. And on the electricity front in particular, it's interesting to note that utilities and public officials have spent years working to bring more power down from the north. As Marketplace's Henry App reports.

[Sabri Benishore]

In the dimly lit control room of Vermont Electric Co Op in the town of Johnson, six monitors display a diagram of the small utilities system. Blue, orange and white lines crisscross the display's black background. They represent the power lines that deliver electricity to 40,000 customers. Manager Isaac Gillen points to one of the monitors.

[Omer Sharif]

So this has pretty much all the high level switches and breakers and stuff that we can control. You can see at the top, we.

[Sabri Benishore]

Have a Hydro Quebec tie there, meaning a power connection to the grid of Hydro Quebec, the utility on the other side of the Canadian border. Gillen's pointing to a connection in the town of Highgate, Vermont, which sends power to the whole New England grid. But there are others on the US side of the border in Derby, Norton and Canaan.

[Kai Rysdal]

Back in the day when we actually.

[Omer Sharif]

Used to have to go out and read meters physically, if you're up in that Derby area, there's times where if you're not paying attention, you just, you.

[Constance Grady]

Could slip right into Canada.

[Sabri Benishore]

Another display shows the total amount of power Vermont Electric Co Op is getting from Canada. Says CEO Rebecca Towne.

[Constance Grady]

Right now it's almost 19 megawatts coming through, flowing through our ties to HydroColbac.

[Sabri Benishore]

Right now, that was about 40% of the utility's total needs at that moment, pretty average, Towne says. According to Hydro Quebec, it supplied 14% of New England's electricity in a particular particularly cold January. Back in the 1980s, utilities in the region built two major transmission lines to bring that power down from Canada. Mark Montalvo is CEO of Daymark Energy Advisors, a consultant group based in Worcester, Massachusetts.

[Omer Sharif]

You know we were coming out of an energy crisis, right? There was a lot of concern about diversification of fuel supply. Quebec had a very rich water resource.

[Sabri Benishore]

Meaning lots of hydroelectric dams in the north of the province, which for years have produced surplus, cheap power. For the last decade or so, New England and New York have been trying to get more of it. After many delays, two new connections to the Hydro Quebec grid are set to be completed by early next year, says the utility's Serge Abergel.

[Kai Rysdal]

Each of them will bring enough energy.

[Omer Sharif]

To supply a million homes, one for essentially New England and Massachusetts, and the.

[Sabri Benishore]

Other one for New York City. The lines will also be able to send power north, says Pierre Olivier Pinot, a professor at the business school HEC Montreal. So as New England and New York add more solar and wind, which can also produce surplus power at times, Quebec.

[Kai Rysdal]

Can basically import electricity, keep the water.

[Omer Sharif]

In the dams, and then that saved.

[Kai Rysdal]

Water can be used later on to.

[Sabri Benishore]

Generate power when solar and wind aren't. In other words, Quebec can basically store power behind its dams for whenever New England needs it.

[Kai Rysdal]

The Northeast states shouldn't see Quebec as a net exporter of electricity, but as a big battery to help balance their own market. And that big battery is already built.

[Sabri Benishore]

Tariffs could make fossil fuels in the region more expensive, too. Right now, fuel oil for homes, gasoline and aviation fuel refined in New Brunswick, and some natural gas all cross the border.

[Kai Rysdal]

Vermont gas takes nearly all of its.

[Sabri Benishore]

Physical gas supply from a connection at.

[Kai Rysdal]

The Canadian border at Philipsburg, Quebec.

[Sabri Benishore]

Neil Lunderville is head of Vermont Gas Systems, which serves 56,000 customers in the northern part of the state, including full disclosure me. He says there's no doubt about who would foot the bill for natural gas tariffs.

[Kai Rysdal]

We pass the cost of gas directly.

[Sabri Benishore]

To our customers, a 10% tariff on Canadian energy will mean a direct rate impact for our customers. In the meantime, he's been looking at ways to mitigate that impact, but he's not particularly helpful. In Burlington, Vermont, I'm Henry Epp for marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

Tariff policy is so far unclear, as Henry was just telling us. Also not entirely transparent is what's happening with various federal programs, most specifically the funding of those programs. Last we heard, which was last week, the Department of Agriculture is still planning to release about $20 million in grants money that'll go to individual farmers. That is out of a total, by the way, of nearly 20 billion over 10 years. That was in the Inflation Reduction Act. And as you might imagine, given all of that, farmers are a bit anxious. Here's today's installment of our series, My Economy.

[Omer Sharif]

My name is Howard Burke. I am the president and co founder of our amazing mushroom company, Ellijay Mushrooms. We're in Ellijay, Georgia, where we grow shiitake oyster, golden oysters, lion's mane, and we're growing about 5,000 plus pounds a week. It wasn't until college that I really took it seriously in mushrooms. I was eating healthy during that time and I started to do mushroom logs. That's where you would cut down a tree, inoculate it, and then you could grow mushrooms in your backyard. I would start with about five to 10 of them, and then over the years, I ended up with thousands of them. And then I found out that there was actually an audience for these. Around 2017, 2018, my new business partners found me and we created Ellijay Mushrooms. And that's kind of how we just started to grind and do it. Pricing, not knowing the business, that has been a challenge. Each place is different in value. So there's a retail price, there's a wholesale price, and they're all over the place. And one of the things that was a challenge was like, oh, you have to add in a delivery fee or there's a lumper fee, meaning that if you deliver to XYZ Warehouse, they're going to charge you 50 to $100 to unload it. So at the beginning on some of our accounts, we were losing money because I didn't know that you had to add into those fees. This year, we just hit profitability. We just got it over the line. But now, since we have to build three more greenhouses, it will go back down to that valley. We're just trying to find funding for it. Currently, we are working with a grant writer for the Value Add Producer grant, which just got released. And if that's totally off the table, that means we have to go a whole nother route, means that we have to put up more equity, could be more debt. There are more challenges with, I'd say, overall, more risk. If we don't have those USDA funds and loans, we're just going to move forward with it and know that we're going to make it happen. Up here in Elijah, we're pretty rural and we wanted to make sure that the employees that lived here, we could give them a living, healthy wage, that they could stay here with their families. That's very rewarding.

[Kai Rysdal]

Howard Burke, president and co founder of Ellijay Mushrooms in Ellijay, Georgia. No matter where you are, no matter what you do, we cannot do this series without you. So let us know what's going on, would you? Marketplace.org myeconomy his final note on the way out today, we started with a word. All y'all are sick and tired of hearing inflation. We are going to end with another one. I apologize in advance. Tariffs. We direct your attention now to Section 232 of the Trade Expansion act of 1962, which, among other things, gives the President virtually unfettered authority to impose tariffs on the grounds of national security. The many times mentioned steel and aluminum tariffs are Section 232 tariffs and the President signed an order today directing the Commerce Department to investigate whether copper tariffs might be warranted. 25% steel, 25% aluminum supposed to hit in March. As you know, no indication of when or how big tariffs might be on copper. Our Digital and On Demand team includes Kerry Barber, Jordan Manji, Dylan Mietanen, Janet Wynne, Olga Ochsman, Ellen Rolfus, Virginia K. Smith and Tony Wagner. Francesca Levy is the Executive Director of Digital and On Demand and I'm Kyle Rysdal. We will see you tomorrow, Everybody. This is APM.

[Constance Grady]

Consumer confidence had its sharpest monthly decline since 2021, which means we're all in our feels about money. And while uncertainty is the only constant these days, it's also a great reason to get serious about understanding personal finance. I'm Janelie Espinal, host of Financially Inclined, a podcast from Marketplace that makes learning about money simple. Learn about practical skills like negotiating job offers, dealing with money and friendship and love, entrepreneurship and student loans. Get serious about your money and build a life you've always dreamed of. Listen to Financially Inclined wherever you get your podcasts.