Buy in bulk and on credit

Summary

Marketplace Podcast Summary: "Buy in Bulk and on Credit" Release Date: January 23, 2025

Host: Kai Ryssdal
Producer: Marketplace
Description: Every weekday, host Kai Ryssdal helps you make sense of the day’s business and economic news — no econ degree or finance background required. “Marketplace” takes you beyond the numbers, bringing you context. Our team of reporters all over the world speak with CEOs, policymakers, and regular people just trying to get by.

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1. American Consumer Drives the Economy

Timestamp: [01:21]

Kai Ryssdal opens the episode by emphasizing the pivotal role of American consumers in the economy, noting that consumer spending accounts for 70% of all economic activity. He highlights Procter & Gamble (P&G) as a key beneficiary of this spending surge, with the company reporting a 3% year-over-year sales increase driven primarily by higher sales volumes rather than price hikes.

Quote:

“Spending by or on behalf of American consumers drives 70% of everything that happens in this economy.” — Kai Ryssdal [01:21]

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2. Procter & Gamble's Sales Growth

Timestamp: [02:34]

Henry Epp from Marketplace discusses P&G's recent financial performance with insights from Arun Sundaram of CFRA Research. The growth in P&G's sales is attributed to increased sales volumes as companies shift focus from raising prices to boosting the number of units sold. Patrick Smith adds that larger pack sizes, often sold at wholesale clubs like Costco or Sam's Club, provide better value for consumers.

Quotes:

“Growth has been driven by you.” — Arun Sundaram, CFRA Research [02:34]
“Means that more consumers are shopping at places like Costco or Sam's Club, where you can get those larger pack sizes.” — Patrick Smith [03:18]

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3. Shifting Consumer Behavior: Bulk Buying for Value

Timestamp: [03:27]

Brian McCarthy from Deloitte explains that value is the primary driver for shoppers in the current economic climate of high inflation. Value isn't limited to just lower prices but also encompasses quality, convenience, and overall shopping experience. Retailers that can simplify the purchasing process and offer satisfactory experiences are more likely to attract and retain customers.

Quotes:

“Value is really what shoppers are looking for right now after years of high inflation.” — Brian McCarthy, Deloitte [03:27]
“For some, it's going to be quality, for others, it's price. For others, experience, you know, some for its convenience.” — Kai Ryssdal [03:41]

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4. Rising Credit Delinquencies: Signs of Stress

Timestamp: [04:35]

Despite positive sales figures, Kai Ryssdal raises concerns about increasing delinquencies on credit cards and auto loans, citing data from the New York Fed. Justin Ho reports that Capital One's CEO, Richard Fairbank, stated their customers are in great health, with strong balance sheets supported by pre-pandemic government relief funds. However, Ben Ayres, senior economist at Nationwide, points out that households still face significant financial strain due to high prices and interest rates, leading to rising delinquencies among the most vulnerable groups.

Quotes:

“The consumer's in a great place.” — Richard Fairbank, Capital One CEO [05:42]
“Those households that are behind the recent increase in loan delinquencies.” — Ben Ayres, Nationwide [06:18]

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5. Insights from Capital One on Consumer Health

Timestamp: [05:35]

Justin Ho elaborates on Capital One's perspective, highlighting that despite rising delinquencies, the overall consumer financial health remains robust thanks to higher account balances and strong income growth that outpaces inflation. Shannon Grine from Wells Fargo adds that the top 20% of consumers, who account for 40% of total spending, remain financially stable, mitigating broader economic risks.

Quotes:

“Customers account balances are higher than before the pandemic.” — Justin Ho [06:00]
“For the top 20% of consumers, these vulnerabilities surface without causing a meaningful deterioration in consumer spending.” — Shannon Grine, Wells Fargo [07:01]

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6. Agricultural Labor Challenges: Interview with Patrick Smith

Timestamp: [08:13]

Kai Ryssdal shares a personal anecdote about apple picking at Loftus Ranches in Washington State, introducing Patrick Smith, the farm owner. Patrick discusses the critical reliance on the H2A visa program to secure necessary labor, highlighting the escalating costs of labor which now consume 99% of revenue, leaving only 1% for essential expenses like fertilizer and taxes. This dramatic increase from 37% in 2013 underscores the severe strain on farmers' margins.

Quotes:

“We are fortunate that the H2A visa program does give us the availability of labor that we need to get the job done.” — Patrick Smith [10:14]
“In 2023, Washington apple growers spent 99% of their revenue on labor.” — Patrick Smith [10:39]

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7. Impact of Immigration Policies on Agriculture

Timestamp: [12:10]

Patrick Smith voices concern over potential changes in immigration policies under the new Trump administration, which could restrict both illegal and legal immigration. He emphasizes that a secure and affordable labor force is essential not just for farming but also for national food security and economic stability. Smith fears that reducing legal immigration would have far-reaching negative effects on American agriculture and the economy at large.

Quotes:

“Farm labor, and a secure source of farm labor is more than just important to employers like us. To farmers, food security is an important part of national security.” — Patrick Smith [12:30]

---

8. Disaster Relief: Effective Support Post-Fires

Timestamp: [14:44]

Jill Replogle reports on the community response to the Palisades and Eaton fires, highlighting the YMCA's role in coordinating donations. While there is an outpouring of support, many donations, especially used clothing, are not what victims need most. State Senator Sasha Renee Perez advocates for cash assistance as the most effective form of support, allowing flexibility for survivors to address their specific needs. Drew Hanna from Team Rubicon echoes the sentiment, noting that clothing donations often end up in landfills due to the logistical challenges of sorting and distributing them effectively.

Quotes:

“What people need most right now is money.” — State Senator Sasha Renee Perez [16:37]
“Clothing donations can be especially … count hours of work by volunteer agencies.” — Drew Hanna, Team Rubicon [17:47]

---

9. Executive Orders Impacting Infrastructure Funding

Timestamp: [21:53]

Kimberly Adams from Marketplace discusses a recent executive order titled "Unleashing American Energy," which has caused confusion regarding the disbursement of federal funds tied to the Inflation Reduction Act and infrastructure projects. Initially misinterpreted as a halt to all federal highway administration (FHA) payments, it was later clarified to primarily affect green initiatives like EV charging infrastructure. Experts like Adi Tomer from Brookings Institution and Jody Freeman from Harvard Law School warn that permanent blockage of these funds could lead to legal battles over impoundment and jeopardize ongoing and future infrastructure projects.

Quotes:

“They may be hesitant to continue projects where they might be liable for enormous sums of money.” — Adi Tomer, Brookings Institution [23:10]
“If the president tries to block that funding permanently, that's considered impoundment.” — Jody Freeman, Harvard Law School [23:53]

---

10. Rebuilding After Natural Disasters: Case Study in North Carolina

Timestamp: [24:57]

Hannah Berniske, owner of Cold Mountain Art Collective in Canton, North Carolina, shares her experiences rebuilding her business after Hurricane Helene. She outlines the challenges of managing reconstruction costs, navigating insurance claims, and the emotional toll of deciding whether to stay in a flood-prone area. Hannah emphasizes the importance of community involvement in the rebuilding process, planning volunteer days to foster a sense of collective investment and support.

Quotes:

“Each day that goes by, it just, it’s starting to feel like it’s going to push into March. I hope not, but we'll see.” — Hannah Berniske [26:00]
“I think it's those moments leading up to the grand opening that I'm looking forward to the most.” — Hannah Berniske [27:20]

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11. Market Updates and Closing Remarks

Timestamp: [18:44] - [29:08]

Kai Ryssdal provides a brief stock market update, noting movements in major indices and specific companies like Kellanova and Clorox. He also touches on the valuation of major college football teams, with research indicating teams like Ohio State Buckeyes valued at nearly $2 billion. While these segments offer a snapshot of market dynamics, they serve as supplementary information to the main content discussed throughout the episode.

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Conclusion

In this episode of Marketplace, Kai Ryssdal and his team delve into the intricate dynamics of consumer spending, highlighting how bulk buying behaviors driven by the quest for value are reshaping retail strategies and benefiting companies like Procter & Gamble. The discussion extends to the financial health of consumers, revealing a dichotomy where overall financial stability coexists with rising credit delinquencies among vulnerable groups. Through interviews with industry experts and real-world stories, the episode underscores the complexities of agricultural labor amidst changing immigration policies and the critical role of effective disaster relief in supporting affected communities. Additionally, the impact of executive actions on infrastructure funding and the ongoing challenges of rebuilding after natural disasters are explored, painting a comprehensive picture of the current economic landscape.

Notable Quotes:

“Spending by or on behalf of American consumers drives 70% of everything that happens in this economy.” — Kai Ryssdal [01:21]
“In 2023, Washington apple growers spent 99% of their revenue on labor.” — Patrick Smith [10:39]
“What people need most right now is money.” — State Senator Sasha Renee Perez [16:37]

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the "Buy in Bulk and on Credit" episode of Marketplace, providing listeners with a thorough understanding of the topics covered without requiring prior knowledge of the podcast.

Transcript

[Kai Rysdal]

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[Kai Rysdal]

In which once again, the hero of the economic story is you. From American Public Media, this is Marketplace in Los Angeles. I'm Kyle Rysdal. It is Wednesday today, the 22nd of January. Good as always to have you along, everybody. We'll begin midweek with a checkup of sorts on the American consumer. We do that, by the way, concentrate so much on consumers because in case you're new here, spending by or on behalf of American consumers drives 70% of everything that happens in this economy. And the most proximate beneficiary of that spending today is the consumer products conglomerate Procter and Gamble, maker of everything from laundry detergent to tampons to toothpaste. P and G reported profits this morning, sales up 3% year over year sales growth mostly thanks to higher sales volume rather than higher prices. Marketplace's Henry Epp gets us going with what that tells us about how consumers are spending right now and how retailers are trying to get their piece of it.

[Henry Epp]

Companies that sell packaged goods to U.S. consumers razors and toilet paper and cleaning products. They've had a pretty decent couple years, says Arun Sundaram at CFRA Research. But growth has been driven by, you.

[Patrick Smith]

Know, higher prices, which is obviously not sustainable.

[Henry Epp]

Over the longer term, a company can only raise its prices so much before customers start to look for cheaper options. So now companies are trying to keep their prices in check and focus more on sales volume, he says. Procter and Gamble is having some success in that area, in part because, as their chief financial officer told Bloomberg, some consumers are consistently buying larger packs of things. Again, Arun Sundaram at cfra, that indirectly.

[Patrick Smith]

Means that more consumers are shopping at places like Costco or Sam's Club, where you can get those larger pack sizes. And oftentimes that comes at a better value to the consumer.

[Henry Epp]

Value is really what shoppers are looking for right now after years of high inflation, says Brian McCarthy at Deloitte. And value doesn't just mean spending less. It can be a combination of things and not just about the product itself.

[Kai Rysdal]

For some, it's going to be quality, for others, it's price. For others, experience, you know, some for its convenience.

[Henry Epp]

So if retailers can make it easy and maybe satisfying to buy, say, a 36 roll pack of toilet paper, that can win over some customers. And overall economic conditions might make those customers open to spending a bit more in the months ahead, McCarthy says, we're.

[Kai Rysdal]

Starting to see interest rates come down while the labor market remains strong and inflation is starting to wane as well.

[Henry Epp]

Those factors could give retailers a lift in many categories, including some that have struggled the last couple years, says Craig Rowley at Korn Ferry.

[Patrick Smith]

We're seeing apparel doing better, we're seeing athletic wear doing better, we're seeing home goods doing better.

[Henry Epp]

All that stuff we bought a ton of early in the pandemic, he says. It's starting to wear out and needs to get replaced, and we've got a bit more spending power to do that right now. I'm Henry Epp for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

P and G shares up about 1.9% today. That's a bit better than the three major indices. We will have the details when we do the numbers. Even though Procter and Gamble has been selling a lot of pretty much everything, there is still a handful of warning signs when it comes to American consumers. Right now, interest rates are still high, and there's a good chance they're going to stay that way for the foreseeable future. And according to data from the New York Fed, delinquencies on credit cards and auto loans have been rising for more than a year now. That does sound like a bad sign for an economy powered by consumer spending. But as Marketplace's Justin Ho reports, is it really?

[Justin Ho]

This is how Capital One CEO Richard Fairbank described the health of his customer base on an earnings call this week.

[Kai Rysdal]

The credit metrics are looking great.

[Justin Ho]

The consumer's in a great place, fairbank said. Customers account balances are higher than before the pandemic. Gerard Cassidy, a bank analyst at RBC Capital Markets, says all of the government relief aid that went out early in the pandemic is still helping people pay off their bills.

[Kai Rysdal]

And I think it's going to take at least another year or two before.

[Henry Epp]

It'S completely washed out of the system.

[Justin Ho]

The labor market is still strong, too. Workers are hard to find. Income growth is outpacing inflation. Ben Ayres is senior economist at Nationwide.

[Henry Epp]

For most people that have jobs, and.

[Patrick Smith]

Particularly those that have investments, they have.

[Henry Epp]

Homes and those values are going up.

[Patrick Smith]

The credit situation for most households is pretty solid.

[Justin Ho]

But the emphasis there is on most. Ayres says plenty of households are struggling under the weight of high prices and high interest rates. In fact, he says, it's those households that are behind the recent increase in loan delinquencies.

[Patrick Smith]

They're falling behind on payments. They're putting more of their day to day expenses on credit cards.

[Henry Epp]

And it's that segment that we're definitely concerned about.

[Justin Ho]

But those pockets of stress don't really pose much of a threat to the broader economy because wealthier consumers are still in good shape, says Shannon Grine, an economist with Wells Fargo.

[Henry Epp]

So the top 20% of consumers account.

[Kai Rysdal]

For about 40% of spending in the U.S. so I think you can have.

[Shannon Grine]

These vulnerabilities surface without it causing a.

[Kai Rysdal]

Meaningful deterioration in consumer spending.

[Justin Ho]

Grine says the risk here is that the strong economy will mask those vulnerabilities, she says. That's something the Federal Reserve will have to keep in mind.

[Shannon Grine]

They need to see a little bit.

[Kai Rysdal]

More sustained progress on inflation, but I.

[Henry Epp]

Do think they're also aware of the.

[Shannon Grine]

Fact that higher rates are having an.

[Kai Rysdal]

Impact on certain areas of the economy, particularly these more vulnerable consumer groups.

[Justin Ho]

And Grind says cutting interest rates could help those groups stay afloat. I'm Justin Ho for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

About eight years ago I went Apple picking for a series we were doing on the show back then, but it wasn't fun. What a lovely fall day. Apple picking. It was actual agricultural. This is a job, Apple picking. And it was hard.

[Patrick Smith]

You should feel how heavy that bag is.

[Kai Rysdal]

Give me the strap too. Oh yeah, the whole thing all filled up. Which it is. The thing weighs 42 pounds. Jesus.

[Patrick Smith]

That's how handy that bag is.

[Kai Rysdal]

He's going up a ladder, up a ladder Down a ladder and with some chiding. No, I don't want to try to climb. All right, fine, I'll try to climb. So am I. I get hurt, we're going to sue you. You know that, right? Slowly but surely, I inch my way up. Just a couple of steps, mind you. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Now, all right, I'm done. That was Patrick Smith with me there that day on his family farm, Loftus Ranches in the Yakima Valley up in Washington State. Apples and hops, too, is what they grow, as you've heard me say more than once on this program. Immigration is a labor story, which I mention, of course, because of the Trump administration. So to get a sense of what that might mean in the very labor intensive agriculture sector, we've gotten Patrick Smith back on the phone. Patrick, it's really good to talk to you again.

[Patrick Smith]

Yeah, good to talk to you, guy.

[Kai Rysdal]

First things first, I suppose. How's business at Loftus Ranches?

[Patrick Smith]

Yeah, business is good. You know, agriculture, of course, is very cyclical, and both hops and apples are two primary crops are in a little bit of a down cycle right now. But, you know, we've got a great team here and we're focused on the things that we can control. And, yeah, we're making our way through it.

[Kai Rysdal]

Fair enough. Let's talk about some stuff you maybe can't control. And the reason we wanted to talk to you was, you know, I played up in the introduction to this piece, I played a piece of tape from, you know, when I was up there with you guys in 2016, and I came to realize how hard apple farming is and what kind of labor you need? Here's my question. First of all, what's your labor situation right now? Are you getting all the H2 visa people that you need? And secondarily, how much is it costing? It's got to be really expensive.

[Patrick Smith]

Yeah, yeah. So we are fortunate that the H2A visa program does give us the availability of labor that we need to get the job done, as you allude to. The difficulty is that the cost continues to escalate even faster than inflation. That represents a significant real cost increase.

[Kai Rysdal]

What I hear you saying is that your margins are getting really thin.

[Patrick Smith]

Yeah. Correct. So the Northwest Horticultural Council trade group here commissioned a study recently about Washington apple growers labor costs over the past decade. And in 2023, Washington apple growers spent 99% of their revenue on labor. So that 1% doesn't leave much for fertilizer and taxes and water and, you know, fuel for Your tractors, things like that. And so, yeah, margins are getting squeezed in comparison. In 2013, labor was about 37% of the like per bin revenue that apple growers received.

[Kai Rysdal]

You don't need me to tell you this, but having 1% left over is. Is not a way to run a business model.

[Patrick Smith]

No, no. And like we've talked about before, farmers are price takers. We don't set the price of apples. And in an economic environment and political environment where inflation is really the driving, you know, force in elections and, you know, household budgets, you know, it's really hard for us to manage and, you know, not pass on significant cost increases that consumers would see in the grocery store.

[Kai Rysdal]

It's tricky to know what the new Trump administration is going to do on immigration before they actually do it. They've started some crackdowns, and obviously crackdowns will not happen to H2A workers because they're illegally and sponsored by you. But it's possible that this administration is going to decide that even legal immigration is not something that it's interested in.

[Patrick Smith]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, farm labor, and a secure source of farm labor is more than just important to employers like us. To farmers, food security is an important part of national security. It's also an important trade bargaining chip in that American agriculture is a net exporter. And if legal immigration is constrained through policies of the Trump administration, that has other implications beyond just how it affects farmers.

[Kai Rysdal]

Yeah. You are what I know I ask you this pretty much every time, and I can never remember, you're the fourth generation, right, of your family to be on this farm.

[Patrick Smith]

Yeah, Correct.

[Kai Rysdal]

All right. And you and your siblings and the rest of your family have expanded. You have a brewery now. You've got. I was looking at your website earlier. You've got Loftus Labs, which is sort of of a analytics and data thing. So you're clearly expanding. Here's my question, though. Do you imagine, how old are your kids now, Patrick?

[Patrick Smith]

I have three kids. They are 14. 8 and 4.

[Kai Rysdal]

14. So not too far from deciding what that kid is going to do. Do you imagine they're going to be generation number five?

[Patrick Smith]

I certainly hope so. If we do our job well, the farm hopefully will be there for them to at least have the decision whether they want to come back to it or not. You know, I certainly hope that, you know, that we pursue smart immigration and trade policies that benefit farmers as well as, you know, the nation as a whole.

[Kai Rysdal]

Patrick Smith, Loftus ranches up in the Yakima Valley in Washington State. Apples, hops, Brewery, data analytics, all that good stuff. Patrick, thanks a bunch. Good to talk to you again.

[Patrick Smith]

Likewise Kai, good to talk to you.

[Kai Rysdal]

There's been, as I'm sure there is, wherever natural disaster strikes, a massive outpouring of support for victims of the Palisades and Eaton fires. Gofundmes shelter and donations of all kinds. But what gets given isn't always what's most needed. From laist, Jill Replogle has more.

[Jill Replogle]

Just southeast of where the Eaton fire burned, the YMCA in Sierra Madre is a hive of activity. On this morning, a large group of volunteers forms a chain to unload boxes of donations from an Amazon truck.

[Shannon Grine]

I can see the front wall.

[Jill Replogle]

There are also a lot of just regular folks who wanted to help, like 11 year old Winnie Newberg.

[Kai Rysdal]

We didn't lose our home, but a.

[Jill Replogle]

Lot of our friends did.

[Kai Rysdal]

So we wanted to give something back.

[Jill Replogle]

And what's your job here Right now.

[Kimberly Adams]

Me and my friend are basically just.

[Jill Replogle]

Giving out pet supplies like toys, leashes.

[Patrick Smith]

Food for cats and dogs.

[Jill Replogle]

The back patio of the YMCA is dotted with piles of canned food, toys and bedding. AJ Plasencia wanders around looking to replace things that he, his wife and 2 year old son lost in the fire. Are there specific things that you're looking for for him?

[Kai Rysdal]

Basically cars, toy cars, dinosaur toys and things that he likes like that.

[Jill Replogle]

He's also looking for essentials he'll need when he can get out of the emergency shelter where he and his family have been staying.

[Public Investing]

Trying to find a mattress but I can't.

[Henry Epp]

I don't seem to find one here.

[Jill Replogle]

Placencia and the other fire victims I speak with say they're grateful for all the help they're getting, including for little things like snacks and toothbrushes and eye cream. Many of them lost everything. State Senator Sasha Renee Perez is also here. She represents this area. She says what people need most right now is money.

[Kimberly Adams]

Cash assistance really gives my constituents the.

[Shannon Grine]

Flexibility to address whatever pressing needs that they may have at that moment. A lot of times that you know.

[Jill Replogle]

Need might be housing, right? Maybe it might be, you know, food for the children. What fire victims and donation centers don't seem to need more of is used clothing. After I leave the ymca, I drive down Sierra Madre Boulevard several miles west past scarred oak trees and hillsides scorched by the Eaton fire. I see five pop up donation sites within about a mile on the porches of businesses. Outside of the supermarket, in front of a local funeral home, used clothing is piled high on folding tables, some of it including a Poofy white wedding dress is strewn across the sidewalk.

[Patrick Smith]

I've seen, you know, pallets of clothing just left outside in a parking lot.

[Henry Epp]

For four months after some disasters because.

[Public Investing]

There'S no place to put it.

[Patrick Smith]

People don't have resources to sort it.

[Jill Replogle]

This is Drew Hanna. He's led relief efforts after disasters in California, Hawaii and elsewhere for the nonprofit team Rubicon. He says clothing donations can be especially.

[Kai Rysdal]

Difficult to handle, that is countless hours.

[Henry Epp]

Of work by, you know, volunteer agencies.

[Patrick Smith]

By survivors themselves, to navigate, you know.

[Kai Rysdal]

The piles and piles of donated clothing.

[Jill Replogle]

Hannah says a lot of donations after disasters unfortunately end up in the landfill. A better approach, he and others told me, is to contact donation centers or check their social media to find out exactly what's needed or give money to a trusted relief organization that knows how to put it to good use. In Los Angeles, I'm Jill Replogel for Marketplace.

[Shannon Grine]

Coming up, I could use all the help. Painting, trim, just spot cleaning, staging, that.

[Kai Rysdal]

Kind of thing, reopening after a hurricane. But first, let's do the numbers down. Duster was up 130 points today, about three tenths percent. Finished at 44,156. The NASDAQ went up 252 points. That's 1.3% twice. 20,009. The S&P 500, up 37 points. About 6, 10%. 6,086. We heard earlier from Henry Epp about the state of consumer demand. Kellanova, the parent company of Cheez, its Morningstar farm meat substitutes and Rice Krispie treats, dipped less than a 10th percent today. Clorox Company might be and probably is best known for its cleaning products. Also, however, owns the Kingsford Charcoal brand and also Hidden Valley Ranch. Who knew? Down 8/10 of 1%. Bonds down yield on the 10 year t Note, up 4.61% on the 10 year. Today you are listening to Marketplace.

[Kimberly Adams]

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[Kai Rysdal]

This is Marketplace. I'm Kai Rysdal. Executive orders and actions have been coming out of the White House fast and furious, as you have surely seen and heard. And while speed can get an agenda moving quickly, it can also muddy the waters. Take, for instance, Section 7 of the Executive order from the other day titled Unleashing American Energy. It orders, among other things, an immediate pause to the disbursement of federal funds tied to certain components of the Inflation Reduction act and the infrastructure. Which components exactly is a lot less clear, as Marketplace's Kimberly Adams explains.

[Kimberly Adams]

Early yesterday afternoon, Jeff Davis at the ENO center for Transportation started getting frantic.

[Patrick Smith]

Phone calls saying that the executive order signed by President Trump the day before.

[Henry Epp]

Reporting to stop Green New Deal spending.

[Patrick Smith]

Was having the effect of suspending all Federal Highway Administration payments and new project approvals.

[Kimberly Adams]

Davis says the FHA started shutting down disbursements out of an abundance of caution, even for things like road and bridge work. The idea that promised funding could be on hold changes the calculus for state policymakers, says Adi Tomer at the Brookings Institution.

[Patrick Smith]

They may be hesitant to continue projects where they might be liable for enormous sums of money. We're talking tens to potentially hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Kimberly Adams]

After that panic, the White House issued guidance clarifying it was just talking about the Green New Deal stuff like EV charging infrastructure. Other funding can Keep flowing if agencies check in first. The whole thing is causing a ton of confusion.

[Kai Rysdal]

I will tell you that there is a lot of people reaching out that are wondering what is going on.

[Kimberly Adams]

Marcia Geldert Murphy is the president of the American Society of Civil Engineers and also works as an engineering consultant in five states.

[Kai Rysdal]

Everybody in those states are all equally.

[Shannon Grine]

Concerned about what is going to happen to this money that hasn't been received.

[Kimberly Adams]

Yet, but was promised because tens of billions of dollars have been promised for projects tied to the Inflation Reduction act and the infrastructure law. Jody Freeman directs the Project on Environmental and Energy Law at Harvard Law School and says if the president tries to block that funding permanently, that's considered impoundment.

[Justin Ho]

That would be the president actually impounding.

[Kai Rysdal]

Money that Congress has appropriated and that would lead to a legal battle.

[Kimberly Adams]

Plus, says Freeman states that already spent that money with the expectation of reimbursement would likely sue to get it back. In Washington, I'm Kimberly Adams for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

Plans to build back are just starting to take shape after the fires here in Los Angeles. Over on the other side of the country, a lot of homeowners and businesses are in the early stages of their own rebuilds after Hurricane Helene hit last fall. Hannah Berniske is the owner of Cold Mountain Art Collective in Canton, North Carolina.

[Shannon Grine]

So we still have a long way to go, but I was able to get a brand new window for the front gallery space. We've had some electrical work done, and I think really in the next two weeks things should start picking up and moving pretty quickly is my hope. I really would like to be open no later than like late February. But each week that goes by, each day that goes by, it just, it, it's starting to feel like it's going to push into March. I hope not, but we'll see. Sometimes it feels really overwhelming to think about all of the small things like countertops and doors and mirrors and toilet seats. And it's like all the little things add up and they feel very overwhelming. But it looks like around $50,000 for the rebuild. Now, whether insurance matches that or not, I don't know yet. So kind of a wait and see game with that. But either way, it's got to get done. I think that for me, the biggest question is why stay in this location knowing that it's flooded and that it'll likely flood again. But I bought this building with my small business loan for a really good deal. And even if I were to sell it and try to purchase another property, I would never be able to get something as affordable as this. I love my building. I'm very attached to it, and I just don't think I could lose it or leave it. I'm looking forward to, like, the final details. We're going to set up some volunteer days to have the community come in and do like, put together our Ikea furniture and we'll have pizza. And it just, it gives the community more of an investment in the space. They've really been wanting to offer physical labor. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna accept that. I could use all the help painting, trim, just spot cleaning, staging, that kind of thing. I think it's those moments leading up to the grand opening that I'm looking forward to the most. It's kind of like an opportunity to start fresh with new business ideas and just new paths.

[Kai Rysdal]

Hannah Berniski, owner of the hopefully soon to be up and running again. Cold Mountain Art Collective in Canton, North Carolina. This final note on the way out today in which I ask you once again to tell me how college football isn't actually professional. The name, image, likeness deals we have talked about whereby players can benefit from the use of their personal brands, which good. Saw this in the Wall Street Journal today, though, that the Ohio State Buckeyes football team, newly minted national champions, would be valued at $1.96 billion. Could that team be bought and sold on the open market? That's research out of Indiana University. Columbus, Texas comes in at 1.9 billion. Michigan at 1.6, Georgia, Notre Dame, LSU, Penn State, Tennessee and Texas A and M all breaking nine figures. I personally wanted Notre Dame to win. Not that that's here nor there. Our media production team includes Brian Allison, Jake Cherry, Jason Dueler, Drew Jostad, Gary O'Keefe, Charlton Thorpe, Juan Carlos Dorado and Becca Weinman. They are priceless. Jeff Peters is the manager of media production. I'm Kai Rysdal.

[Justin Ho]

Welcome.

[Kai Rysdal]

We will see you tomorrow. Everybody, this is apm. Hey, everybody, it's Kai. We've got an exciting offer for you. Now through Valentine's Day, you can show off your love for Marketplace by grabbing an investor T shirt when you donate $5 a month. Invest in the nonprofit journalism you love and get a shirt to show off your support. Give [e-mail] donate.