How fresh is that home listing?

Summary

Marketplace Podcast Episode Summary: "How Fresh Is That Home Listing?"
Release Date: December 30, 2024
Host: Kimberly Adams

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1. Housing Market Trends and Inventory Challenges

Overview: The housing market remained a focal point in 2024, characterized by tightness and affordability issues. As the year concludes, the National Association of Realtors provided updates indicating a slight improvement in home purchases and modest gains in housing inventory despite persistently high mortgage rates.

Key Points:

• Pending Home Sales Growth: For the fourth consecutive month, pending home sales increased by 2.2% in November, signaling resilience in the market despite financial headwinds. (00:53)

• Market Balance in Orlando and Austin: Realtors like Rose Kemp in Orlando highlighted a balancing market with more options for buyers than in previous years. Similarly, Kent Redding in Austin observed an uptick in inventory, anticipating favorable buying conditions in 2025. (01:51 – 02:24)

• Stale Listings and Pricing Concerns: Despite higher active listings—the highest since 2020—Redfin economist Shahriar Bahari noted many listings remain unsold due to overpricing and buyers’ concerns over additional costs like interest rates and insurance. (02:30 – 02:49)

• Comparative Inventory Shortage: Economist Lawrence Yoon emphasized that the current shortage persists, with about 30 fewer homes on the market compared to pre-COVID levels, underscoring ongoing affordability challenges. (03:11 – 03:24)

• Homeowners Holding Back: A significant portion of homeowners with low mortgage rates (3-4%) are reluctant to sell, further constraining inventory growth. (03:24 – 03:38)

Notable Quote: Elizabeth Troval, Marketplace Wall Street reporter, summarized the situation: "Active listings are at the highest level since 2020, but many are stale because they're priced too high, making affordability a key issue for buyers." (02:30)

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2. Medicare's New Prescription Drug Cost Cap

Overview: Starting January 1st, Medicare seniors will benefit from a reduced out-of-pocket cap for prescription drugs, dropping from $3,250 to $2,000 annually. This policy aims to alleviate the financial burden on seniors who require expensive medications.

Key Points:

• Policy Origin: The cost cap stems from the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act, addressing the exorbitant out-of-pocket expenses some seniors faced, sometimes reaching tens of thousands of dollars annually. (03:38 – 04:43)

• Insurance and Financial Security: Economists discussed how the cap ensures seniors aren’t financially devastated by high drug costs. Lawrence Yoon mentioned, "This caps financial risk for those who need high-cost medications, ensuring they won’t face bankruptcy over their prescriptions." (06:12 – 06:16)

• Government and Premium Implications: While the federal government and taxpayers bear the increased costs, negotiations by Medicare on drug prices are expected to offset some expenses. However, there may be slight premium increases for Medicare Part D plans, though safeguards are in place to limit these hikes in the near future. (06:27 – 06:37)

Notable Quote: Benedict Ippolito from the American Enterprise Institute criticized the absence of prior caps: "If a health plan doesn't cap the amount you can be required to pay, it's not a particularly good insurance product." (04:52 – 04:59)

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3. Declining Adult Literacy Rates in the United States

Overview: A recent OECD survey revealed declining adult literacy rates in the U.S., posing significant economic and societal challenges. Professor Daphne Greenberg from Georgia State University discussed the implications and potential solutions to this growing issue.

Key Points:

• Definition and Scope of Literacy: Literacy encompasses not just reading and writing but also numeracy, problem-solving, and the ability to utilize digital tools effectively. (07:56 – 08:36)

• Current Literacy Status: Approximately 28% of U.S. adults are reading at the most basic level or below, ranking poorly compared to other OECD countries. This stagnation is attributed to insufficient focus on adult education over the years. (08:45 – 09:26)

• Causes of Low Literacy: Factors include inadequate early education, health-related absences during schooling, frequent relocations affecting consistent education, learning disabilities, and challenges faced by immigrants learning in a new language. (09:39 – 10:29)

• Economic and Social Impact: Low literacy contributes to a $1.44 trillion loss in GDP and incurs significant healthcare costs due to difficulties in accessing medical information. It also affects intergenerational learning, as parents with low literacy struggle to support their children's education. (11:52 – 12:58)

• Solutions and Barriers: While adult education programs can boost literacy and self-esteem, only about 10% of those in need access these resources due to limited availability and awareness. Expanding and promoting these programs is crucial. (13:02 – 13:40)

Notable Quote: John Roark, professor of economics at Reed College, explained the psychological aspect: "Consumers spend less with cash than plastic because parting with tangible money is more painful, which can aid in saving." (21:25) (Note: This quote is misplaced in the transcript and may belong to a different section.)

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4. The Rise of "Cash Stuffing" as a Budgeting Method

Overview: "Cash stuffing," a modern adaptation of the traditional Envelope System, has gained popularity on social media as a visually appealing way to manage finances. This method involves allocating physical cash into categorized envelopes to control spending.

Key Points:

• Methodology: Participants withdraw their paycheck in cash, divide it into specific budget categories (e.g., housing, gas, fun), and place the money into labeled envelopes or binders. (18:55 – 19:38)

• Aesthetic Appeal: The system is often showcased through meticulously organized and visually pleasing videos, making budgeting a more engaging and accountable process for users. (19:13 – 20:18)

• Behavioral Insights: Using cash makes spending feel more tangible, potentially reducing unnecessary expenditures. Studies support that consumers are less likely to overspend when using cash compared to credit cards. (20:37 – 21:21)

• Challenges: While effective for some, cash stuffing can be cumbersome, requiring frequent trips to the bank and meticulous organization. Additionally, the loss of physical envelopes poses a risk with no immediate recourse. (21:27 – 21:49)

Notable Quote: John Roark highlighted the psychological impact: "The endowment effect means that making budgeting materials aesthetically pleasing can increase the value you place on them, potentially improving financial outcomes." (21:25) (Note: This quote corrects the earlier misattribution.)

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5. Innovative Use of Wood in High-Rise Construction

Overview: Advancements in building technology have led to the increased use of cross-laminated timber (CLT), a sustainable and climate-friendly material, in constructing high-rise buildings. This shift aims to reduce the carbon footprint traditionally associated with steel and concrete structures.

Key Points:

• Case Study – The Ascent in Milwaukee: At 19 stories, The Ascent is currently the world's tallest hybrid timber-concrete building, utilizing Extra Strong CLT to achieve unprecedented heights for wood structures. (23:21 – 24:12)

• Environmental Benefits: CLT stores significant amounts of carbon dioxide, with The Ascent estimated to offset 7,200 metric tons of CO₂, equivalent to removing 2,400 cars from the road annually. Additionally, using timber reduces emissions from steel and cement production. (24:32 – 25:04)

• Sustainability Conditions: The effectiveness of CLT in carbon sequestration relies on sustainable forest management practices to ensure long-term environmental benefits. (25:04)

• Industry Adoption and Future Projects: While still rare in the U.S., changes in building codes and increasing momentum have led to 15 tall CLT projects either completed or underway. Notable projects include Walmart’s home office in Arkansas and Microsoft’s new data centers. (26:30 – 27:20)

• Local Impact – St. Louis Project: A new mass timber high-rise in St. Louis aims to inspire further adoption of CLT technology, demonstrating the material’s viability for tall buildings and its potential as a catalyst for change in the construction industry. (26:30 – 27:20)

Notable Quote: John E. Fernandez, MIT professor of architecture, emphasized the environmental advantage: "When you cut down a tree to turn it into cross-laminated timber, you're storing a lot of carbon into a building for a long time." (24:42 – 24:58)

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6. Remembrance of President Jimmy Carter and His Economic Legacy

Overview: In remembrance of the late President Jimmy Carter, the episode revisits his economic legacy, particularly his role in shaping the Federal Reserve under Paul Volcker to combat high inflation during his presidency.

Key Points:

• Economic Decisions: President Carter appointed Paul Volcker to lead the Federal Reserve, prioritizing long-term economic stability over immediate political gains. (27:40 – 28:09)

• Impact on Inflation and Political Repercussions: Although Volcker's policies successfully curbed inflation, they also led to economic hardships that affected Carter's political standing, while Ronald Reagan later gained recognition for these measures. (28:09 – 28:52)

Notable Quote: In a retrospective interview, President Carter reflected on his decisions: "I thought the next term was going to be mine," acknowledging the personal and political costs of his economic policies. (28:09 – 28:52)

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Conclusion

This episode of Marketplace delved into critical issues impacting the American economy and society, from the complexities of the housing market and healthcare affordability to the pressing challenge of adult literacy and innovative financial strategies like cash stuffing. Additionally, it highlighted sustainable advancements in construction and honored the enduring economic contributions of President Jimmy Carter. Through expert insights and real-world examples, the episode provided listeners with a comprehensive understanding of these multifaceted topics.

Transcript

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[Kimberly Adams]

What the year ahead will look like if you're trying to buy a house or fill a prescription from American Public Media, this is Marketplace in Washington, D.C. i'm Kimberly Adams in for Kai Rysdal. It's Monday, December 30th. Good to have you along. The tightness and lack of affordability in the housing market has been one of the major economic stories of 2024. And to end the year in housing data tomorrow we'll get an update on home prices. Today we got the latest numbers on home purchases in progress from the national association of Realtors. Pending home sales grew for a fourth straight month, up 2.2% in November. And even though mortgage rates remain stubbornly high, we have seen some gains in housing inventory marketplaces. Elizabeth Troval has more.

[Realtor 1]

In Orlando, Florida, Realtor Rose Kemp says the housing market is finally balancing out. And for buyers, for the first time.

[Kimberly Adams]

In several years, there are options, she says.

[Realtor 1]

While before you might have had to pick between one or two homes and a zip code, now you actually can.

[Kimberly Adams]

Probably go out and see, you know, five homes, let's say, that have the potential for you.

[Realtor 1]

And in Austin, Texas, Realtor Kent Redding says there's also been an uptick in inventory and he thinks 2025 will be a good time to buy.

[Realtor 2]

Houses are selling, new houses are going on the market and we're not seeing wild swings. That's a healthy market to be in, though.

[Realtor 1]

Active listings are at the highest level since 2020, according to new analysis by Redfin. It's not all good news, Redfin economist Shahriar Bahari says that's because many listings are stale. Inventory or a home has sat on.

[Economist 1]

The market for at least 60 days.

[Realtor 1]

He thinks houses are just sitting there largely because they're priced too high, while buyers also factor in other costs like interest rates and insurance, people are just looking for affordability. And economist Lawrence Yoon with the national association of Realtors says if you look at the market before 2020, we are.

[Kimberly Adams]

Beginning to see more choices.

[Economist 2]

But compared to pre Covid, right before.

[Economist 1]

COVID arrived, say 2019 or 2018, we.

[Realtor 2]

Are still short by about 30 fewer homes on the market, he says.

[Realtor 1]

While inventories are trending the right direction, some homeowners locked into 3 or 4% interest rates are still staying put. I'm Elizabeth Troval for Marketplace Wall Street.

[Kimberly Adams]

Today. Stocks continued their year end retreat. We'll have the details when we do the numbers. With the new year comes a raft of new policies kicking in. Starting January 1st, seniors on Medicare will pay no more than $2,000 a year out of pocket for prescription drugs. That's down from this year's cap of $3,250. Now, limiting how much Medicare recipients pay for prescription drugs is a relatively new federal policy. It came out of the 2022 Inflation Reduction Act. Before the cap started phasing in this year, some seniors were paying tens of thousands of dollars a year out of pocket to cover their meds. Marketplace's Samantha Fields has more.

[Economist 3]

The whole point of health insurance is to make medical care affordable, at least in theory.

[Realtor 2]

Insurance is supposed to be limiting big financial shocks.

[Economist 3]

Benedict Ippolito at the American Enterprise Institute says if a health plan doesn't cap the amount you can be required to.

[Realtor 2]

Pay, it's not a particularly good insurance product.

[Economist 3]

Private health plans have long had some kind of out of pocket maximum, but not Medicare.

[Realtor 2]

It was unusual in that it did not cap how much you could spend on, in this case, prescription drugs.

[Economist 3]

There was no cap at all. Matthew Fiedler at the Brookings Institution says until this year, if you were taking.

[Realtor 2]

A really expensive drug and that drug was tens of thousands of dollars, that could translate into, you know, potentially thousands of dollars of out of pocket costs.

[Economist 3]

Most seniors aren't spending more than $2,000 a year on prescriptions, Fiedler says, but at least one and a half million did in 2021, according to the health policy nonprofit KFF.

[Realtor 2]

One common reason people can end up with particularly high drug costs is they're taking an expensive cancer drug. Other scenarios include people with certain immune system disorders or people who have had an organ transplant and take immunosuppressive drugs.

[Economist 3]

And you never know when that might be you. That's why Stacey Ducetzina at Vanderbilt University Medical center says capping how much seniors have to pay for prescriptions is a big deal.

[Economist 1]

This puts financial security there for people who end up developing a condition that needs a high cost drug so that.

[Kimberly Adams]

You know that the drug costs that they will face are not going to bankrupt them.

[Economist 3]

This new price cap will cost the federal government and taxpayers. But Dusatsina says Medicare can now negotiate drug prices and that should offset some of the increased costs.

[Kimberly Adams]

The other way that this comes out is through premiums. So if you are purchasing a Medicare.

[Economist 1]

Part D plan, your premium could potentially go up.

[Economist 3]

But she says there are guardrails in place to prevent them from going up too much, at least for the next few years. I'm Samantha Fields for Marketplace.

[Kimberly Adams]

All over the world, according to new research, we're getting worse at reading. The Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development, OECD surveyed 31 different countries and found that while a handful have managed to improve literacy over the last decade, most have been stuck at a standstill or are even in decline. Among those countries in decline is the United States. Here to discuss how that shift can affect people's personal economies and our national economy is Daphne Greenberg, a professor at Georgia State University and The director of GSU's Adult Literacy Research Center. Thanks for joining us.

[Economist 1]

Thank you for having me on.

[Kimberly Adams]

So a report came out recently that showed adult literacy in the US Is decreasing. But first of all, what actually counts as literacy?

[Economist 1]

That's a very, very good question because most people think of literacy as reading and sometimes they include writing. But, but we think of it as including a lot more. It includes numeracy, such as math. It includes adaptive problem solving. So that's being able to use a computer and the Internet and so forth to access information. But there's even a more general definition of literacy, and that is basically whatever an adult wants or needs in order to function to their full potential in, at the workplace, in society, and in their family.

[Kimberly Adams]

So how are we doing when it comes to literacy here in the United States compared with other countries, as well as how we did in the past?

[Economist 1]

Yeah. So unfortunately we're not doing as well as many people would think we are. About 28% of adults in the United States are reading at what's considered level one and below, which is really elementary skills. And we really do rank very lowly compared to other countries. But this isn't a brand new problem. We really have not focused enough on the skills of our adults in this country. And as a result, there are a lot of consequences both for the individual and for society.

[Kimberly Adams]

Most American kids, the vast majority, go to school and learn how to read. So how do we end up with adults who really struggle with literacy to the level that you're talking about?

[Economist 1]

That's a really good question. The adult education student is very diverse in the reason why they are at the point they are. So for some of them, it's because they received very poor instruction. They just got passed along grade after grade after grade when they shouldn't have been. For some of them, they were sick as children and missed a lot of school. For some of them, they moved around a lot. And as we know that different schools in different states and different neighborhoods are following different curricula. Some individuals have learning disabilities. Some individuals are immigrants to our country, and so they're learning to read and write in a new language. It really is a very complicated issue in terms of the reasons why.

[Kimberly Adams]

There can obviously be a lot of shame attached to this, and people who struggle with reading or literacy may have developed some skills to hide it. What does it look like when somebody has low literacy, particularly in the workplace?

[Economist 1]

So, for instance, many, many, many, many years ago, I tutored a woman who was struggling with reading, and she always came to my tutorial session on time. And I asked her, how did she do that? And she said, well, she used to watch the Cosby show in those years. And she told me, well, I know that during the second commercial of the Cosby Show, I have to get out of my house and walk to the bus stop to get to you on time. And so they develop unbelievable compensatory skills. As another example, you mentioned the work workplace. I used to know a person at a dry cleaners who had difficulty with people's names and so forth, and he just literally memorized faces that went along with clothes. So they definitely, definitely do develop a lot of compensatory skills. And you're right, there is a lot of shame associated with low literacy in our country because there's an assumption, which is incorrect, that every adult can read very well and is proficient.

[Kimberly Adams]

What's the broader economic impact of the fact that there are so many folks in this country who struggle to read?

[Economist 1]

It has a lot of impact on both society and for the individual. So in terms of our economy, the Coalition on Adult Basic Education, for example, cited that low rates of adult literacy actually can leads to a $1.44 trillion loss in gross domestic product pro literacy sites, that there's 100 to $200 billion loss in terms of health care costs, because you can imagine that if you have difficulty reading and using the Internet, and so much of healthcare now is on the portals that you have difficulties accessing healthcare, you have difficulties reading medical instructions and that leads to port poorer health outcomes. You know, there's also the intergenerational transfer of low literacy that can happen because if parents have difficulty reading, then many of them are ashamed to read to their children and they can't help them with homework.

[Kimberly Adams]

And what sorts of strategies actually work to fix this issue?

[Economist 1]

Yeah, so there are adult education programs and it really helps their self esteem, first of all, because they realize, wow, I'm not the only one and I if I come and I attend, I will be able to really increase my skills. And I'm with a whole bunch of people who really care about me. One of the problems though is that these programs now only access about 10% of adults who really need these programs. And part of the problem is that there aren't enough programs. Some people don't know how to access them. A lot of people don't even know that they exist.

[Kimberly Adams]

Daphne Greenberg is director of the Adult Literacy Research center at Georgia State University. Thank you so much.

[Economist 1]

Thank you. Bye bye.

[Kimberly Adams]

Coming up, there's very little wood utilized into commercial and institutional buildings, at least for now. But first, let's do the numbers. The Dow Jones industrial average fell 418 points 1% to finish at 42,573. The NASDAQ subtracted 235 points 1 and 2, 10% to close at 19,486. And the S&P 500 lost 63 points 1 and 1 10% to end at 59.06. As we recall the memory of the late former president Jimmy Carter, Carter pushed for the creation of the Department of Energy when he took office in 1977. U.S. imports of crude oil reached what was at the time a peak, a little over two point barrels. According to the Energy Information Administration. Just a bit more than we imported in 2023. But by 1981, the year Carter left office, that number had fallen by about a third to just over 1.6 billion barrels. Imports didn't climb back to that 1977 level until 1993. Increased demand in today's world for LNG for export is one reason why natural gas futures heated up 15% today. The other reason, forecasts of a cold January bonds rose. The Yield on the 10 year T note fell to 4.53%. And you're listening to Marketplace.

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[Kimberly Adams]

This is Marketplace. I'm Kimberly Adams. Many of us have to get creative to make our finances work in this economy and one budgeting method is taking off on social media right now that combines nostalgia, Instagram worthy aesthetics and a desire to get better at managing your money. Oregon Public Broadcasting's Lillian Kaerbake explores the trend of cash stuffing.

[Realtor 2]

Cash stuffing is a modern twist on how your grandmother might have balanced her books. The Envelope System Cash stuffers post videos of perfectly manicured nails delicately organizing their bills, almost like an unboxing video for their paycheck.

[Kimberly Adams]

Today we are going to be doing a cash stuffing of my December paycheck.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

I'm going to do an ASMR cash.

[Realtor 2]

Stuffing 2535400 that last clip is Lily Cohen, a 25 year old who does administrative work in Bangor, Maine. She started making cash stuffing videos in 2021 on her YouTube channel Lily Budgets. Now Cohen has over a million views from strangers watching her separate her paycheck into a pink wallet binder.

[Kimberly Adams]

She is thick this month.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

We have a lot of ones in here.

[Realtor 2]

I'm sure her viewers are often people her own age who are also trying to build good financial habits. She finds the public accountability helpful, but the actual cash is cumbersome.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Oh yeah, I drive to the bank multiple times a week and I've made very good friends with the tellers.

[Realtor 2]

Cohen's paycheck comes via direct deposit, but then she drives to the bank and pulls it out in cash. She asks the teller for exact denominations for each budget category, like housing, gas and Fun. And like a pro content creator, she asked for the most fetching Franklin's. The bank has the prettier bills kind.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Of draw the attention of the viewers. It's nice to look at clean, crisp new bills versus the dirty old ones.

[Realtor 2]

The videos have sort of a spa like vibe, even when Cohen is just counting coins.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

If the money is in cash locked up in a safe at my house, I cannot spend it.

[Realtor 2]

And it's true, consumers spend less with cash than plastic. Studies show it's actually more painful to part with cash than it is to pay with a card because you actually fork over your hard earned money. That's Ted Rossman, senior industry analyst at Bankrate, and he says this might be a way to get a handle on rising debt. Credit card balances are up 51% from the beginning of 2021. That's part inflation and high interest rates, but consumers are just swiping more often, especially Gen Z. Gen Zers have substantially more credit card debt than millennials did at the same age, and they're also more likely to be using credit. But cash stuffers think the tangible nature helps them save.

[Kimberly Adams]

When you hold onto something, you cherish.

[Realtor 2]

It more, and so you're less likely.

[Kimberly Adams]

To kind of let it go.

[Realtor 2]

That's called the endowment effect, says John Roark, a professor of economics at Reed College. He says there's a downside, though.

[Kimberly Adams]

I know that's going to sound silly, but if you lose your pretty envelope, there's no recourse.

[Realtor 2]

Roark says he doesn't think there are any academic papers about whether making budgeting pretty makes a difference to financial outcomes, but that might be due to lack of study. After all, people who'd be doing the.

[Kimberly Adams]

Research are economists, right? And we are not the people who are into aesthetics.

[Realtor 2]

Cohen isn't just into it for the aesthetics, though. She invests her money after she stuffs it in her Roth IRA envelope on her YouTube channel. Then she drives back to the bank, deposits the cash and transfers it to her brokerage account. But she doesn't mind the legwork.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

I love the process of opening it up, of stuffing the money in, of counting it, and having those pretty things can just make it more enjoyable experience.

[Realtor 2]

And Cohen says she would keep doing it even if she didn't post online In Portland, Oregon, I'm Lillian Carebake for Marketplace.

[Kimberly Adams]

We started the show talking about housing and how there just isn't enough of it in this country. Well, one solution is building more multi family structures and some builders are trying to be a bit more climate friendly while doing it. Now typically when you want to build, say a high rise, you need really durable materials like iron, steel, cement and concrete that also come with a high carbon footprint. But thanks to some new technology and new rules, builders are finding modern uses for a traditional and more climate friendly wood harvest. Public Media's Kate Grumpke has more.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

On the northern edge of downtown Milwaukee, one high rise is not like the others. The building is called the Ascent and it's made of wood. Cross laminated timber to be exact.

[Realtor 2]

Also called CLT, it is 19 stories.

[Kimberly Adams]

Of mass timber over a six story concrete parking structure.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

That's architect Jason Corr. The Ascent is currently the world's tallest building that's a hybrid of timber and concrete. Fifteen years ago it would have been hard to find a wood building that was more than four or five stories tall. But this building stretches up 25 floors thanks to Extra Strong CLT. It's made by layering and gluing lumber in a crossing pattern to form massive strong beams. Corp takes the elevator up to show off a model apartment.

[Realtor 2]

14Th floor.

[Economist 2]

These are carrying less weight the higher up you go.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Inside, the ceiling is made of warm, exposed timber that connects to thick wooden support beams framing a stunning view of Lake Michigan. Originally, Korb says the building's developers considered cross laminated timber as an aesthetic choice.

[Kimberly Adams]

But the more you dive into it, the more you learn about its other benefits. The the largest one is the level of carbon sequestration in the timber.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Trees take carbon out of the atmosphere. When you cut down a tree to turn it into cross laminated timber, you're storing a lot of carbon into a building for a long time, says John E. Fernandez, a professor of architecture at mit.

[Realtor 2]

When you look at a tree, the fact is that about half of the.

[Kimberly Adams]

Dry weight of that tree is carbon.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

The Ascent's designers estimate the building offsets 7,200 metric tons of carbon dioxide. They say that's the equivalent of taking 2,400 cars off the road for a year. CLT doesn't just lock carbon into a building, it also avoids emissions from steel and cement. Together, those two materials produce almost 15% of planet warming greenhouse gas emissions worldwide. But Fernandez says there's a caveat. The forest the wood comes from needs to be sustainably managed for all of this to work out. Right now, CLT is still a relatively rare building material in the US it's really early days. Bill Parsons is the chief operating officer at Woodworks Wood Products Council, which is a nonprofit funded by the forestry industry. Parsons says changes in the international building code in the last few years open the door for high rises made of clt, and there's some momentum around it. Walmart's new home office in Arkansas includes mass timber, and Microsoft announced it's building two new data centers with clt. But even though there's this long history of using wood in single family homes, it hasn't caught on for bigger buildings.

[Realtor 2]

There's very little wood utilized into commercial and institutional buildings.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Parsons says there are 15 tall CLT projects either built or under construction around the US and more are in the works. A lot in St Louis's Downtown west neighborhood doesn't look like much right now. It's gated off and covered in gravel. But it will soon have a mass timber high rise that's a bit taller than the one in Milwaukee. Kyle Howerton is a principal at aha, the developer behind this project. He says city officials were shocked when they first heard about it.

[Kimberly Adams]

They didn't realize that you could build something over 300ft tall using wood.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Now Howerton wants this building to inspire similar projects in St. Louis and beyond.

[Kimberly Adams]

I hope that this is a catalyst.

[Realtor 2]

For more structures being built using the same technologies.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Howerton plans to break on the climate friendly high rise next year in St. Louis, I'm Kate Grumpke for Marketplace.

[Kimberly Adams]

This final note on the way out today. As you've heard by now, President Jimmy Carter passed away yesterday. And among his many legacies is an economic one. His presidency coincided with the last period of really high inflation in this country, leading him to what was at the time a controversial pick to lead the Paul Volcker. This came up in an interview President Carter did with Kai Ryssdal back in 2010. Here's a bit of that on the.

[Economist 2]

Topic of Paul Volcker, if I could just back up for a second. Yeah, please. You put him in the job. You in essence made this deal with him where he would do what he had to do and you would suffer the political consequences, according to your telling of it. And yet it seems to me that he is most remembered and the president he is most associated with is Ronald Reagan for breaking the back of inflation. Does that gall you at all? Not gall me, but I reckon bug you a little bit. Well, you know, I was the one that suffered politically and Ronald Reagan was the one that benefited from the Paul Volcker economic philosophy. But I don't begrudge the fact that it happened during the next term. I thought the next term was going to be mine.

[Kimberly Adams]

President Carter was 100 years old. The New York Stock Exchange and the NASDAQ will be closed for trading on January 9th for the national day of mourning for the nation's 39th president. Our daily production team includes Andy Corbin, Nicholas Guillong, Maria Hollenhorst, Sarah Lisa, Sean McHenry and Sophia Terenzio. I'm Kimberly Adams. We'll be back tomorrow. This is APM.