Insurance price spikes threaten supportive housing programs

Summary

Marketplace Podcast Episode Summary Title: Insurance Price Spikes Threaten Supportive Housing Programs
Host/Author: Marketplace
Release Date: November 28, 2024

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1. Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) Surge During Holiday Season

Overview:
As the holiday shopping season kicks off, Buy Now, Pay Later (BNPL) services are experiencing a significant surge. Marketplace explores how this financial tool is reshaping consumer spending habits amidst rising prices and economic strain.

Key Points:

• Record Usage: An estimated $18.5 billion in purchases this year are expected to utilize BNPL, marking an 11% increase from the previous year (00:02).
• Accessibility and Convenience: BNPL allows shoppers to split payments into interest-free installments, predominantly via mobile devices, facilitating impulse buys (01:18).
• Consumer Behavior Shifts: Initially used for large purchases like TVs and mattresses, BNPL is now being leveraged for essential items such as groceries due to persistent inflation impacts (01:48).

Notable Quotes:

• Vivek Pandia, Lead Insights Analyst for Adobe: "Buy Now, Pay Later options have become more common wherever people have a digital shopping cart." (01:33)
• Trevor Forbes, TSG: "Being able to split it up as... you can make a deposit towards that purchase without having to do it all at once." (02:28)
• Lisa Gill, Consumer Reports: "Non-payment can wind up on your credit report and really ding that credit score pretty hard." (02:47)

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2. Wage Growth and Household Financial Health

Overview:
Marketplace delves into the dynamics of wage growth in relation to inflation and its effects on household financial stability as consumers approach the holiday season.

Key Points:

• Wage vs. Inflation: Average hourly earnings saw a 4% increase year-over-year in October, outpacing the 2.3% rise in prices. However, many workers, especially in small businesses, are still lagging behind pre-pandemic trends (04:30).
• Disparities in Wage Increases: While overall wages are catching up, lower and middle-income workers continue to struggle with high living costs and significant credit card debt (05:00).
• Future Outlook: Employers are increasingly planning significant wage hikes, with nearly 25% expecting raises of 5% or more. However, potential political and economic changes under the incoming administration could introduce volatility (06:12).

Notable Quotes:

• Julia Pollack, ZipRecruiter: "Pay has been catching up, and wages have now been rising faster than inflation for about a year and a half." (04:42)
• Ted Rossman, Bankrate: "Many workers are overwhelmed by high prices for everyday living expenses, using credit cards to make ends meet, then falling behind." (05:33)
• Julia Pollack: "Heading into 2025, a majority of employers posting jobs on the site are boosting wages." (06:12)

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3. Personal Story: Navigating Salary Negotiations

Overview:
In an intimate segment, Marketplace shares Nikki Massey’s journey through realizing her undervalued salary and the steps she took to advocate for fair compensation, highlighting broader issues of workplace equity and transparency.

Key Points:

• Awakening to Underpayment: Nikki discovers her salary is at the bottom of her position’s pay scale during an unexpected HR presentation, leading to feelings of betrayal and underappreciation (07:15).
• Taking Action: Despite initial hesitation, Nikki negotiates a significant salary increase after securing a new job offer, ultimately earning $150,000, far exceeding her previous compensation (11:41).
• Impact and Reflection: Nikki now prioritizes teaching her daughters the importance of valuing their worth in the workplace, reflecting on the challenges and changes she faced in her professional journey (12:42).

Notable Quotes:

• Nikki Massey: "Am I not doing a great job? Is this like a vote of their confidence in me?" (08:13)
• Nikki Massey: "The trust that I had in the organization was kind of gone. I don't trust that I'm going to advance here the way that I would want to or need to." (11:17)
• Nikki Massey: "There's not as big of a risk in taking a chance and just asking for what you want, as I seem to have perceived there being my whole life." (12:42)

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4. Insurance Price Spikes Threaten Supportive Housing Programs

Overview:
The core segment addresses how rising insurance premiums are jeopardizing permanent supportive housing (PSH) initiatives, which provide essential services to homeless individuals. Marketplace investigates the financial strains on housing providers and the broader implications for homelessness solutions.

Key Points:

• Success of PSH Models: PSH not only improves residents' lives but also results in taxpayer savings by reducing costs associated with emergency services and incarceration (16:15).
• Rising Insurance Costs: Organizations like Episcopal Community Services are facing 34% increases in insurance premiums, with some providers experiencing over 100% hikes. These soaring costs threaten the sustainability of supportive housing programs (18:12).
• Challenges in Underwriting: Insurers are viewing supportive housing properties as high-risk due to potential accidents by residents, leading to higher claims and premiums (19:43).
• Potential Solutions: Suggestions include establishing public insurance backstops similar to federal flood insurance or increasing funding to mitigate insurance burdens on housing providers (20:10).

Notable Quotes:

• Beth Stokes, Executive Director, Episcopal Community Services: "Insurance costs are now an existential threat because a lot of us are deeply concerned about what we're carrying on our books." (19:35)
• Karen Collins, American Property Casualty Insurance Association: "The rise in claims for this kind of housing is piling up on top of other challenges in the industry right now." (19:43)
• Travis Hamilton, Episcopal Community Services: "There’s support if it looks like a resident needs help... Preventing the next fire or flood might mean keeping the doors open." (20:58)

Case Study: Solomon Bukenya

• Background: Solomon, a 65-year-old homeless individual, struggled with severe health issues and lived on the streets for years.
• Transformation: Upon receiving permanent housing in downtown San Francisco, Solomon experienced significant health improvements and regained stability (17:08).
• Incident Impact: Despite the benefits, incidents like stove fires and water damage have led to costly insurance claims, further escalating premiums and threatening the housing programs’ viability (18:34).

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5. Supporting Segment: Small Business Challenges

Overview:
Marketplace briefly highlights the experiences of Amber and Mallory Pollock, co-owners of Backwards Distilling in Casper, Wyoming, illustrating the broader economic pressures small businesses face, including rising costs and regulatory challenges.

Key Points:

• Business Growth: From a single vodka product to over 30 offerings, Backwards Distilling has expanded significantly over a decade (23:03).
• Cost Pressures: Anticipated tariffs on materials like glass and aluminum may force the business to adjust its pricing structure to remain competitive (22:06).
• Operational Changes: Implementing more efficient production methods has allowed the business to scale while maintaining quality (23:13).

Notable Quotes:

• Mallory Pollock: "We’ve put more than 30 products to the market now... It was really a very interesting kind of retrospective look at it." (23:21)
• Amber Pollock: "We have seen relationships come and go... It's very special to me to be able to witness that and see just how far we've come." (24:57)

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6. Closing Notes: Global Social Media Legislation

Overview:
In its final segment, Marketplace touches on Australia's groundbreaking legislation banning social media use for children under 16, aimed at protecting their mental health. The discussion highlights uncertainties regarding enforcement and the potential global implications.

Key Points:

• Legislation Details: Social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram have one year to comply with the new regulations or face fines up to $33 million.
• Enforcement Challenges: The lack of clear enforcement mechanisms raises questions about the practical implementation of the ban (25:27).

Notable Quotes:

• N/A – General Overview Provided.

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Conclusion

This episode of Marketplace provides a comprehensive look into current economic trends affecting both consumers and service providers. From the rising reliance on BNPL amidst financial strain to the critical challenges faced by supportive housing programs due to insurance cost spikes, the podcast offers insightful analysis and personal narratives that illuminate the broader economic landscape.

For more in-depth stories and financial insights, listeners are encouraged to explore additional segments and related Marketplace podcasts.

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Note: Timestamps in quotes correspond to the transcript sections for reference.

Transcript

[Marie Mahrez]

You know, today may be Thanksgiving, but tomorrow, you could say kicks off a different kind of feast. One where the deals come quick and some of the payments come later. From American Public Media, this is Marketplace in New York. I'm Marie Mahrez in for Kai Rysdal. It is Thursday, 28th November. Happy Thanksgiving. Good to have you along. Now, it's safe to say many consumers, maybe yourself included, will wake up from their Thanksgiving food comas with a simple mission in mind. Snag as many deals as possible with Black Friday. Tomorrow, we officially start the holiday shopping season. And according to data From Adobe, about $18.5 billion of our purchases this year. Let me say that again, 18.5 billion are expected to be made using Buy Now Pay Later. That's a new record, up more than 11% from last year. Typically buy now pay later or BNPL. It lets shoppers split their purchases into installments. So you pay about every two weeks. And depending on the plan, it's typically interest free. Here's Marketplace's Stephanie Hughes with a closer look.

[Stephanie Hughes]

An earlier version of Buy Now Pay later layaway. You know, Pay now slowly receive later.

[Marie Mahrez]

In a way, the concept of Buy.

[Mitchell Hartman]

Now Pay later has been around for.

[Marie Mahrez]

Decades, but it's now having a digital moment.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Vivek Pandia is lead insights analyst for Adobe. Pandia says Buy Now, Pay later options have become more common. Wherever people have a digital shopping cart. Buy Now Pay later is there. Also, with inflation, the items in those carts have gotten more expensive.

[Marie Mahrez]

You have some consumers who've been in a more strained financial position and they need to lean on BNP to get what they need.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Pandia says consumers often use Buy Now Pay later for the big stuff. Think a television or a mattress. But in the past couple of years, he's seen people using it to buy the necessary stuff. Think groceries. Also, about 3/4 of buy Now Pay later spending takes place on a mobile device, which means it's easy to hit buy.

[Mitchell Hartman]

Mobile shopping really facilitates a lot of impulse buying.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Also, at a time of still high.

[Trevor Forbes]

Interest rates, I think the 0% interest.

[Marie Mahrez]

Spread across two months is pretty attractive, right?

[Stephanie Hughes]

Trevor Forbes is with TSG, a payments analytics firm.

[Marie Mahrez]

Being able to split it up as.

[Trevor Forbes]

You get your check, you can make.

[Marie Mahrez]

That deposit towards that purchase without having.

[Trevor Forbes]

To do it all at once.

[Stephanie Hughes]

There can be problems that come with using Buy Now Pay later, like say you don't have enough money to pay later. Lisa Gill is with Consumer Reports.

[Lisa Gill]

That non payment can wind up on.

[Marie Mahrez]

Your credit report and non payments start to really ding that credit score pretty hard.

[Stephanie Hughes]

On the flip side, Gil says some consumers use Buy Now Pay later, make that first payment and then never receive what they thought they bought, while others have trouble returning it.

[Lisa Gill]

So they were still paying on merchandise that they had never received or that they were extremely unhappy with. And that is where it gets into like, ugh.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Gill says it's also possible to take out a bunch of Buy Now Pay later loans at the same time with different companies. And she says the more loans people have, the more likely they are to get overextended and wind up in what she calls a financial kerfuffle. I'm Stephanie Hughes for Marketplace.

[Marie Mahrez]

Wall street was closed for the holiday, so we'll take a different spin. Details numbers coming up. You know inflation is likely one of the reasons more shoppers than ever are expected to use Buy Now Pay later this season. Or I should say not really inflation, but rather its lasting impact because inflation is cooling and the rate of price increases is gradually coming down. Wages, though, are a bit of a happier story. In October, average hourly earnings were up 4% year over year. Prices, meanwhile, rose by an annual rate of 2.3%. So what's this all mean for people's household finances heading into the holidays? Marketplace's Mitchell Hartman has that one.

[Mitchell Hartman]

Back in 2022, inflation peaked at 9% and wage gains fell way behind, eroding the purchasing power of most workers, says Julia Pollack at ZipRecruiter.

[Julia Pollack]

But since then, pay has been catching up, and wages have now been rising.

[Mitchell Hartman]

Faster than inflation for about a year and a half. Still, Pollack says, most workers are lagging.

[Julia Pollack]

Behind where they would have been if pre pandemic trends had continued because prices.

[Mitchell Hartman]

Are still so much higher than they were before the pandemic. Meanwhile, if you work for a small business, you've likely been getting smaller pay bumps than the average American worker. Frank Fiorelli tracks wage inflation for payroll processor paychecks.

[Marie Mahrez]

It's definitely come down from last year, where we were seeing some pretty robust growth. You know, it moved under the 3% rate a couple months ago and then it popped back up, so a little.

[Mitchell Hartman]

Bit of a uptick all in all, says Ted Rossman at Bankrate. When it comes to workers purchasing power.

[Marie Mahrez]

Even though the job market's been good, they're not feeling great about things.

[Mitchell Hartman]

That's especially true of low and middle income wage earners, says Rossman. Many of them are overwhelmed by high prices for everyday living expenses, using credit cards to make ends meet, then falling behind. Bankrate reports half of credit card holders carry debt over from month to month at an average interest rate just over 20%.

[Marie Mahrez]

But some people are paying 2530 store credit cards. A lot of those are in the mid-30s. I mean, it's crazy. These are rates we used to think of for deep subprime borrowers, but now it's become increasingly common.

[Mitchell Hartman]

There is some light on the paycheck horizon, though. Julia Pollack at ZipRecruiter says heading into 2025, a majority of employers posting jobs on the site are boosting wages.

[Julia Pollack]

Almost one in four employers say they're planning significant increases of 5% or more. So it looks as though wage growth is back on track.

[Mitchell Hartman]

The incoming Trump administration is a bit of a wild card, though. Mass deportations could lead to labor shortages driving wages higher. Those higher wages, plus steep new tariffs on imports, could push prices higher as well. I'm Mitchell Hartman for Marketplace.

[Marie Mahrez]

So let's go from macro thinking big picture about wages to the very micro. I host a Marketplace podcast called this Is Uncomfortable, and I recently talked with a woman named Nikki Massey. When Nikki got offered a job many years ago, she didn't really question the salary, which isn't unusual. 40% of employed adults who did not ask for more pay said they were satisfied with what they were offered. That's according to Pew. But what if you found out later that maybe you could have been making more money all along? Nikki described that moment to me.

[Nikki Massey]

I was in my home office and the human resources department decided to do a presentation.

[Marie Mahrez]

Nikki, who's in her late 40s, was working as a senior manager for a nonprofit in D.C. during this remote presentation, she remembers HR sharing a chart of her company's salary ranges. And that's when she saw her salary, $75,000, corresponding to the very bottom of her position's range.

[Nikki Massey]

It was a punch in the gut moment. I was just like, am I not doing a great job? Is this like a vote in their confidence in me? Like, what does this even mean? That I make the absolute rock bottom that for this position?

[Marie Mahrez]

And what was the highest amount?

[Nikki Massey]

I believe the highest amount was like maybe 110 or 112 or something like that.

[Marie Mahrez]

It didn't make sense to Nikki. She'd worked at this company for 12 years and had been in that position for the last three, and management often praised her work. She wasn't sure who to turn to for advice. Her mom, who'd passed away, was the only person in her life who had a professional job.

[Nikki Massey]

I have people to talk it through about how I felt about it. I didn't have people to talk it through and say, okay, well, here's maybe what you should do next.

[Marie Mahrez]

Like, strategically. Yeah, okay, so then the meeting ends, and then what do you do?

[Nikki Massey]

I don't like causing a stink about things, but it was just like, I might have to cause a stink about this.

[Marie Mahrez]

Nikki's always felt fortunate to make a decent salary, but she's a single mom who helped put her two daughters through college. She hadn't taken a proper vacation in years. There was a giant hole in her kitchen ceiling, and she owed the government more than $65,000 in student debt. She set up a meeting with her boss, made the case for why she deserves a higher salary, and then she waited. Meanwhile, as time passed, she could feel her frustration hardening.

[Nikki Massey]

I know this sounds cheesy, but I just didn't think that that sort of thing would ever happen to me or that I would deal with that. And up to that point, I'd had sort of an idyllic view of the organization. It was like, we are family. Your family. And I was like, you know, that was, like, sort of my very real cue of, like, you know, your job is not your family. Your job is not your friends. And I think that that felt like a little bit of a betrayal to me.

[Marie Mahrez]

And when you say that you thought you would never have to deal with that, what do you mean by that?

[Nikki Massey]

I think that I thought that I was in a privileged position for a woman of color.

[Marie Mahrez]

Hmm.

[Nikki Massey]

Cause, you know, here I am. I have this. You know, I have this college degree. I have a nice salary job, and I thought that, you know, I risen above all of that. Now I'm gonna be successful, and it's just like, you know, just not that scenario.

[Marie Mahrez]

We can't confirm what other factors might have been at play for Nikki, but we know black women, on average, experience one of the largest pay gaps when compared to their male counterparts. Last year, according to the census, black women working full time earned 66 cents for every dollar made by white men. Not long after talking with her boss, Nikki got a promotion. But with no salary increase, she did manage to negotiate a bump. And then about a year later, she got another promotion.

[Nikki Massey]

It wasn't. I didn't think, oh, you guys like me. You really like me. It was more like, this is probably what I should have been making the whole time.

[Marie Mahrez]

Even in the middle of all these promotions, she still felt like there was a lack of transparency, no recognition that she might have been underpaid.

[Nikki Massey]

The trust that I had in the organization was kind of gone. I don't trust that I'm going to advance here the way that I would want to or need to. I think I want to start looking for another job.

[Marie Mahrez]

Nikki applied for a position at another nonprofit to be the director of fundraising and marketing. She landed an interview, and at the end of it, they asked her, what's your salary expectation?

[Nikki Massey]

I did have to practice that because it was like every time I said it, I would stutter. So I said it very confidently. I said, my salary expectation is 118. And do you know what she said to me?

[Marie Mahrez]

What did she say?

[Nikki Massey]

She said, great, we're gonna pay you 127.

[Marie Mahrez]

No. And I was just like, oh, my gosh. What? And then you're like, no, no, no. Just kidding. 150.

[Nikki Massey]

Well, part of me was wondering, like, why? If you knew that, why did you ask me that question?

[Marie Mahrez]

Trying to name her salary felt like a question on a test she didn't know how to study for. Nikki's been working at this new job for the last two years, making more money than she could have ever imagined. She took her daughters on their first true vacation in years and plans to fix that hole in her kitchen ceiling. As your children are getting started in their careers, what do you hope to tell them about how to think of their own value in the workplace?

[Nikki Massey]

There's this sort of this propensity that I have, and I feel like other people have this propensity to just, in general, low ball yourself or feel like you have to be the absolute expert at something before you can demand your worth from something. There's not as big of a risk in taking a chance and just asking for what you want, as I seem to have perceived there being my whole life.

[Marie Mahrez]

Sometimes Nikki wonders if she could be making even more money today if she'd started negotiating earlier in life. Who knows? But she's set on helping her daughters, passing down the kind of wisdom she wishes someone would have shared with her. If you want to hear more stories about life and how money messes with it, be sure to check out the Marketplace podcast that I host. It's called this is Uncomfortable. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lisa Gill]

Coming up, I think I would like to see less gray hair on my head.

[Marie Mahrez]

Wouldn't we all? But first, let's do the numbers. US Markets were closed today for the Thanksgiving holiday. Tomorrow, Black Friday, the markets will have a shortened trading day. The great getaway started early, of course, with millions driving and flying to get to their destination just short of 80 million of us will drive 50 miles or more. According to AAA, they'll pay an average of $3.07 for a gallon of regular. Last year it was three and a quarter gallon. In New York, where I'm currently hosting, the average is $3.16. Yesterday, TSA Screened More Than 2,700,000 Travelers TSA is expecting to screen more than 18 million travelers for the period between Tuesday and next Monday. That's an increase of 6% from last year. In Europe, Britain's Footsie was flat and Germany's Dax increased nearly a percent. You're listening to Marketplace.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Understanding personal finance can feel like an impossible task. But it doesn't have to be that way. I'm Janelia Espinal and on Financially Inclined I'll guide you through simple money lessons that will change your financial future. Learn about credit scores, how to avoid scams, and why you need a savings account. Plus, we explore the brain science behind FOMO and what you can do to make smarter money decisions. Listen to Financially Inclined wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rima Reis]

Money, Money, Money. Kids always have questions about it. And maybe you do too. That's why Million Bazillion, the webby winning podcast from Marketplace, is here to answer the awkward and sometimes surprising questions your kids have about money. We explain concepts like savings accounts, retirement, and the differences between brand names and non brand names. Million Bazillion is the place for you and your kids to learn about money. Together, we help dollars make more sense. Get it Listen to Million Bazillion wherever you get your podcast guests.

[Marie Mahrez]

This is Marketplace. I'm Rima Reis. To tackle homelessness, political leaders across the country have touted a seemingly simple solution. Build homes for people who don't have them. Better yet, put those homes in places where unhoused folks are already living, in cities close to public transportation and services. But here's the thing. More and more insurers are seeing those properties as too risky. Not because of potentially catastrophic storms or wildfires, but because of who lives there and the urban neighborhoods where they're located. KQED's Aaron Baldessari has that story.

[Trevor Forbes]

Two years ago, Solomon Bukenya's hands were so swollen he could hardly move his fingers. So one day, when he was alone and needed to press a small button on the side of his prosthetic leg to remove it, he says he had no choice but to call 911.

[Marie Mahrez]

They came.

[Julia Pollack]

I told him, I can't press this button. Please, can you press it for me? And that's all I wanted to do. Imagine calling 911 for only that small thing.

[Trevor Forbes]

Bukenya, now 65 years old, had been homeless since about 2007, living in cars and on the street. His health was deteriorating. I was so weak, my hands, my.

[Marie Mahrez]

Joints, I couldn't walk.

[Trevor Forbes]

But early last year he got permanent housing in downtown San Francisco, where he gets healthcare and free meals.

[Julia Pollack]

I'm feeling more stronger. I'm like a 20, 25 year old.

[Marie Mahrez]

The way I feel in my body.

[Trevor Forbes]

Research shows this kind of housing, known in the field as permanent supportive housing, leads not only to positive changes for residents, but to taxpayer savings, too. Travis Hamilton is with Episcopal Community Services, which owns and operates Bukenha's building.

[Marie Mahrez]

It's so much more affordable in comparison.

[Trevor Forbes]

To incarceration or long term hospitalization or.

[Marie Mahrez]

Literally the cost of one emergency room visit.

[Trevor Forbes]

The success of this model is a big reason it's grown across the country. The number of these supportive apartments have more than doubled over the past decade to over 660,000 units in 2023. But with the new buildings comes new insurance claims, evidence of which was on display at the apartment complex where Buena lives.

[Marie Mahrez]

So unfortunately there was some water damage and we do have our elevators out.

[Trevor Forbes]

Currently, Hamilton says it can take time for people who've lived outside for a decade or more to reacclimate to apartment life.

[Marie Mahrez]

Folks take medication or are sleepy, not feeling well. Leave the stove burner on, which can cause fires.

[Trevor Forbes]

It might only be a small stove fire, but water from sprinklers wreaks havoc. And each accident, even minor ones, can cause tens of thousands of dollars in damages. Beth Stokes is the executive director of Episcopal Community Services.

[Stephanie Hughes]

We've had six fires over the past two years alone.

[Trevor Forbes]

We have had over seven floods as a result. Stokes says insurance premiums for her organization increased 34% over the past year, a mercy compared to other housing providers who've seen premiums more than double, forcing them to dip into operating reserves. Stokes says it's gotten so bad that insurance costs are now an existential threat.

[Marie Mahrez]

Because a lot of us are deeply concerned at what we're carrying on our books. We're all very concerned about the sustainability of the model.

[Trevor Forbes]

Karen Collins with the American Property Casualty Insurance association says the rise in claims for this kind of housing is piling up on top of other challenges in the industry right now. Hurricanes and wildfires, higher rebuilding costs.

[Julia Pollack]

All of these combined have resulted in very significant losses in the last few years.

[Stephanie Hughes]

And so we are seeing premiums having to increase across the entire us.

[Trevor Forbes]

Unlike other landlords who might pass costs onto tenants, supportive housing providers can't. Rents are capped and subsidized by taxpayers. State insurance commissions are only just beginning to study this problem. Solutions could include a public backstop similar to federal flood insurance or just more funding. At Episcopal Community Services, Hamilton says they're already doing what they can by designing buildings with features to prevent damage.

[Marie Mahrez]

We learned this from a painful lesson at another permanent supportive housing site.

[Trevor Forbes]

That timer since are really important. There are extra drains in the bathroom so water doesn't seep to floors below, and monthly house inspections. If it looks like a resident needs help, Hamilton says there's support.

[Marie Mahrez]

Hey, what happened?

[Trevor Forbes]

How can we help you prevent these in the future? Because preventing that next fire or flood might mean keeping the doors open in San Francisco. I'm Erin Baldessari for Marketplace.

[Marie Mahrez]

It's that time of the year when friends and family gather to eat, play games, reminisce about the good old days and yeah, maybe talk about what's on their minds. What if though, this is something you do pretty much every day because you run a business with your family? We decided to check back in with Amber and Mallory Pollock, co owners of Backwards Distilling company in Casper, Wyoming at one of their busiest times of the year.

[Julia Pollack]

It's been a good year for us overall. Most of the data coming out from sales data recently is indicating that there's some pulling back happening in the alcohol industry, particularly on the off premise side of things with people buying off of liquor store shelves. However, our tasting room sales and everything that we do here on site has been going really well. Costs have been a challenge. We've really tried to hold our prices to try to remain as competitive as we can. But you know, we've got a proposition of tariffs on the horizon again which last time that happened that affected glass, cardboard, aluminum, sort of a lot of the things that we do package in and I don't think we have a lot of room to further absorb those increases. And so it's likely that we will have to consider a new, you know, price pricing structure in the near future. I don't know if Mallory has anything to add.

[Lisa Gill]

I think I would like to see less gray hair on my head. But something tells me that being part of a small family business will not allow for that.

[Julia Pollack]

Yeah, I don't think it's reversible. We are 10 years in business.

[Lisa Gill]

This week, this Friday, we're doing like a retro menu. We're throwing it back to some drinks that were on our menu years ago. And I just have these like, ah, this memory of like, oh, my gosh, that drink was so hard to make and it was so, it was so cumbersome. I kind of joke, you know, with staff like, oh, yeah, that frozen drink that took you three seconds to make. We used to make those by hand, one by one by one with like an individual little blender. And now it's just, you know, a big production of it. So I think that one is wild for me to see, just on a micro level.

[Julia Pollack]

Yeah, I think too. When we opened, we had one product, it was one bottle, we made vodka. So every drink on the menu was vodka and that was the only thing we were selling. But I counted it up the other day for a presentation I was giving and we have put more than 30 products to the market now to go from just a single product that we were making to have launched all of these different entries into the market. It's really wild. I was going through my phone today and through my social media trying to reach out to folks who have supported us over the years to let them know that we're celebrating 10 years and to thank them for whatever it was that they contributed to our success. So it was really a very interesting kind of retrospective look at it. And many of them were or are still regulars, right? Yes.

[Lisa Gill]

We have seen relationships come and go. We've seen first dates turn into engagements. We've had engagements here. You know, we joke, like when couples split, who's going to get backwards in the divorce? And I think it's very, very special to me to be able to witness that and see just how far we've come over the past 10 years.

[Marie Mahrez]

That's Amber and Mallory Pollack, co owners of Backwards Distilling company over in Casper, Wyoming. This final note on the way out. Australia just became the first country to ban social media for children, specifically those under 16. Lawmakers say the legislation is to help protect their mental health. You might be wondering, okay, but how exactly will it be enforced? The legislation does not make that clear. But platforms like TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat and the likes, they'll have a year to meet the requirements. Otherwise, the law says they'll be liable for fines of up to $33 million. John Buckley, John Gordon, Noya Carr, Diantha Parker, Amanda Peacher and Stephanie Seek are the marketplace editing staff. Amir Babowi is the managing editor and I'm Rima Reis. We'll be back tomorrow. This is apm.

[Rima Reis]

Money, money, money. Kids always have questions about it and maybe you do too. That's why Million Bazillion, the Webby winning podcast from Mark Marketplace, is here to answer the awkward and sometimes surprising questions your kids have about money. We explain concepts like savings accounts, retirement, and the differences between brand names and non brand names. Million Bazillion is the place for you and your kids to learn about money. Together, we help dollars make more sense. Listen to Million Bazillion wherever you get your podcasts.