Stress-Googling “recession”? You’re not alone.

Summary

Marketplace Episode Summary: "Stress-Googling 'Recession'? You’re Not Alone"

Release Date: March 19, 2025

In this insightful episode of Marketplace, host Kai Ryssdal delves into the growing concerns surrounding a potential recession and explores various economic indicators, industry impacts, and societal challenges that contribute to the current climate of uncertainty. Through expert interviews and detailed analysis, the episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the factors at play and their broader implications.

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1. Assessing the Recession Risks

Kai Ryssdal opens the discussion by addressing the widespread anxiety about a looming recession. With economic chatter intensifying due to tariffs and market volatility, Ryssdal sets the stage for an in-depth exploration of recession indicators.

Kristen Schwab contributes early insights, highlighting that recent economic data presents a complex picture. According to Samuel Zief, a global macro strategist at JP Morgan Private Bank, the U.S. economy has demonstrated robust performance post-COVID, characterized by strong GDP growth, a resilient job market, and sustained consumer spending. Schwab notes at [01:45] that these "hard data" indicators suggest a strong economy, making traditional recession predictors like rising unemployment or an inverted yield curve less prominent.

However, the conversation shifts to "soft data," which reflects consumer sentiment and behavioral trends. Bethann Bovino, chief economist at US Bank, emphasizes the importance of consumer confidence, stating at [03:30], “The latest consumer confidence numbers showed a sharp drop in expectations.” The National Bureau of Economic Research’s definition of a recession—a significant, widespread decline in economic activity lasting more than a few months—underscores the complexity of predicting economic downturns based solely on individual indicators.

2. The Impact of Tariffs on the Housing Market

The episode transitions to the housing sector, where Kai Ryssdal highlights recent data from the Census Bureau indicating a 6.8% decline in permits for new home construction compared to February 2024. Kristen Schwab explains that this downturn is influenced by both interest rate hikes and tariff-induced uncertainties.

Michael Bellamon, CEO of Associated Builders and Contractors, clarifies at [05:40], “The tariffs themselves haven't had a major impact yet; it's the price uncertainty that's mucking with the industry.” This uncertainty leads developers to delay or cancel construction projects, as seen in Dan Brune's experience rebuilding homes after wildfires. Brune recounts at [06:16], “Suppliers are trying to lock in prices before they go up,” resulting in logistical challenges and stalled projects.

Ken Simonson, chief economist with the Associated General Contractors of America, warns at [07:04] about potential new price pressures on construction materials, including imported steel, aluminum, and specialty products like decorative tiles from Europe. Dan Brun further elaborates at [07:33], noting that even "buy American" initiatives offer limited relief since many components of products like stoves are sourced internationally, subjecting them to the same tariffs.

3. Surge in LNG Exports and Energy Infrastructure

Shifting focus to the energy sector, Kai Ryssdal discusses the significant growth in liquefied natural gas (LNG) exports. According to the Energy Information Administration, last year saw a substantial increase in takeaway capacity, enabling the U.S. to export more LNG to Europe and other global markets. Elizabeth Troval reports on how technological advancements since the fracking boom in 2016 have expanded the supply curve of natural gas, making it a competitive energy source.

Ed Herz from the University of Houston explains at [08:50], “We sell LNG to the global market,” highlighting the strategic importance of infrastructure such as pipelines and export terminals. Richard Meyer of the American Gas Association outlines the technical process of liquefying natural gas, which requires extensive refrigeration to achieve the necessary energy density. Despite the promising growth, Matthew Zaragoza Watkins from UC Davis points out the regulatory red tape that hampers infrastructure expansion, although recent policy shifts under the current administration may alleviate some of these barriers.

4. Challenges and Support for Foster Youth

The episode takes a poignant turn as Kai Ryssdal addresses social issues, specifically the challenges facing approximately 400,000 foster youth aging out of the system in the U.S. Mitchell Hartman reports on innovative programs aimed at easing this transition, focusing on Florida’s Foster Power app.

Ahim King, a 21-year-old foster youth from Florida, shares his inspiring journey at [11:56], “Against the odds, I got an associate's degree and am now two semesters away from my bachelor’s in nursing.” His success is supported by a federal tuition waiver and a monthly stipend. Similarly, Quebeanna Peoples discusses overcoming barriers to education and employment, emphasizing the crucial role of supportive programs.

Taylor Sartor, an attorney behind the Foster Power app, explains at [14:30], “Foster Power provides information and legal references crucial for foster youth navigating adulthood.” The app’s expansion, funded by a $400,000 grant, aims to replicate Florida’s model in other states, addressing the alarming statistic that only 70% of foster youth attain high school diplomas and just over half secure employment post-aging out.

Zach Laris, a child welfare expert, warns at [15:50] about potential federal budget cuts under the Republican administration, which threaten funding for healthcare, education, housing, and food assistance for foster youth. These cuts could exacerbate the already precarious situation for young adults transitioning out of foster care.

5. Market Trends: Gold as a Safe Haven

Returning to economic indicators, Kai Ryssdal examines the recent surge in gold prices, noting that the commodity has reached highs above $3,040 an ounce. Savannah Peters reports that gold’s attractiveness is driven by its perception as a safe haven during economic uncertainty.

Lee Baker, president of Claris Financial Advisors, remarks at [19:59], “Gold just feels more real than stocks and bonds. It’s tangible for these clients.” Campbell Harvey, a finance professor at Duke University, explains at [20:10], “Gold has a very long track record of holding its value over very long periods,” though he acknowledges its volatility over shorter time frames.

Paolo Pasquarello, professor of finance at the University of Michigan, contrasts gold with U.S. Treasuries, stating at [20:45], “Investors who would typically turn to US Bonds are buying up gold bars instead.” This shift underscores a growing mistrust in traditional safe investments amidst economic instability, as highlighted by dropping consumer confidence numbers.

6. Regulatory Credits in the Electric Vehicle (EV) Industry

The final major segment explores the critical role of regulatory credits in the electric vehicle (EV) industry. Kai Ryssdal introduces the topic by discussing the mechanics of commodity trading, segueing into how EV manufacturers like Tesla and Rivian leverage regulatory credits for profitability.

Henry Epp explains that regulatory credits are granted by governments to automakers that produce electric vehicles, allowing them to sell surplus credits to traditional car companies that fail to meet emission standards. Tom Narayan from RBC Capital Markets notes at [22:36], “Selling credits is a pretty easy way for Tesla and Rivian to make money,” contrasting it with the slimmer profit margins from vehicle sales.

Seth Goldstein, an equity strategist at Morningstar, emphasizes the historical significance of these credits for Tesla, stating at [23:10], “Regulatory credits helped the carmaker stay afloat through its early years.” As California moves closer to phasing out gas-powered cars by 2035, Daniel Sperling from UC Davis warns at [24:56], “These companies can’t afford to sit on the sideline with EV technology,” highlighting the inevitability of an EV-dominated future despite potential regulatory changes under the current administration.

The reliance on regulatory credits not only supports current EV manufacturers but also accelerates technological advancements in battery efficiency, vehicle range, and charging infrastructure. Sperling concludes at [25:30], “Battery technology, vehicle range, and charging infrastructure are all improving thanks in large part to innovations made by Tesla,” underscoring the symbiotic relationship between regulatory frameworks and industry innovation.

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Conclusion

This episode of Marketplace offers a multifaceted examination of the current economic landscape, highlighting both macroeconomic indicators and sector-specific challenges. From potential recession signals and housing market turbulence to the strategic growth of LNG exports and the socio-economic hurdles faced by foster youth, the conversation underscores the interconnectedness of various economic and social factors. Additionally, the analysis of gold as a safe investment and the pivotal role of regulatory credits in the EV industry provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of both traditional and emerging economic dynamics. Through expert insights and real-world examples, Marketplace equips its audience with the knowledge to navigate these complex issues confidently.

Transcript

[Kristen Schwab]

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[Kai Ryssdal]

You know the business cycle, right? Expansion and contraction. What's another word for economic contraction? From American Public Media, this is Marketplace in Los Angeles. I'm Kai Rysdal. It is Tuesday today. This is the 18th of March. Good as always to have you along, everybody. You've heard the chatter out there, haven't you? Maybe even joined in a bit that, you know, maybe with the tariffs and the chaos and the markets and all of it, that maybe there's a recession coming? I mean, maybe there is. We don't know. But it sure would be handy to know what to look for, wouldn't it? The telltale signs. Here's Marketplace's Kristen Schwab.

[Kristen Schwab]

Before we get into what's at play in the economy right now, let's remind ourselves what's been happening for the last few years or even the last few months. Samuel Zief is global macro strategist at JP Morgan Private Bank. A lot of the risks to the US Economy were to the upside. Upside, because since the COVID recession, which lasted just two months, he says the economy has been hot, a little too hot, with strong GDP growth, a strong job market and strong consumer spending. And those measures have continued to mostly hold up. So much so that in this story about recession indicators, I shouldn't even really run you through the classic red flag predictors like rising unemployment or an inverted yield curve showing up in the bond market. The hard data actually point to a strong economy. Where we are seeing some signs of softening is in soft data. Sorry to use the word twice. Soft data is more about you, the consumer, how you feel and how you respond to how you feel. Because maybe up until recently you were grumpy about all the inflation stuff, but now it seems anxiety has reached a new level, as in googling, are we in a recession? From your bed at 2am the risk was there before, but it's much bigger now because of the tariffs. Mark Gertler, an economist at nyu, says the risk is less about the tariffs themselves and more about the unpredictable trade policy coming out of the White House. What's happened is the craziest period of economic policy I've ever seen in my career. That has, as we've seen, sent the stock market tumbling, which is not enough alone to predict a recession. It is enough to make the 60% of Americans who own stocks nervous because, as we say, the stock market is not the economy, but it is real money. Bethann Bovino is chief economist at US Bank. You lost your down payment or your children lost their down payment for that home that they really wanted. Even if you're not invested, the mood matters. The latest consumer confidence numbers showed a sharp drop in expectations. Indeed, the conference board readings did drop into recession territory. Again, no one indicator signals a recession. There's actually an organization that identifies recessions. The National Bureau of Economic Research defines it as a significant widespread decline in economic activity lasting more than a few months. But this so called soft data is a warning, a warning that people are worried enough so that they're looking for signals beyond the hard data. Bovino's version of this is taking a walk and keeping tabs on her town. If you start to see more signs of business closures or reduced hours, if you start to see a lot of sales signs, it means people and businesses are actively hunkering down for whatever's ahead. I'm Kristen Schwab for Marketplace Wall Street Today.

[Kai Ryssdal]

Traders. I think you could say we're in the, yep, recession camp. We'll have the details when we do the numbers. Housing figures into the recession picture, too. New residential construction going down and staying down can be a tip off. Can be, of course, because nothing's for sure. But the Census Bureau did tell us today that permits for new home construction fell last month, down 6.8% compared to February 2024. Builder confidence is the lowest it's been in seven months. And part of that sure is an interest rate problem. We've talked about that. But it's also increasingly a tariff problem. Marketplace's Kailey Wells breaks that one down.

[Kristen Schwab]

The tariffs are just piling onto a bigger, longer lasting problem. Homeowners don't have good reasons to sell. Why do that? You know, I've got a nice low interest rate. I got nice monthly payments. That's mainly the force behind that. Associated Builders and contractor CEO Michael Bellamon says the tariffs themselves haven't had a major impact yet it's the price uncertainty that's mucking with the industry developers or construction project owners.

[Kai Ryssdal]

That or thinking about pulling the trigger for a project or saying, you know what, let's wait until this settles down.

[Kristen Schwab]

Just the fear of increasing prices has already started to cause problems for architect Dan Brune, who's working on rebuilding homes after LA's wildfires on a renovation job he's got now. The contractor has basically announced that they will need to have the client buy all of the appliances today, even though they won't be brought to the site in six months because suppliers are trying to lock in prices before they go up. Fine. Except now that stove is sitting in a warehouse gathering dust, waiting to go. In a home that isn't built yet, you can't have products just sitting around and not being utilized and hooked up. And your warranty starts from that day, too. A lot of construction basics could see new price pressures, says chief economist Ken Simonson with the Associated General Contractors of America.

[Kai Ryssdal]

The industry relies on a lot of.

[Kristen Schwab]

Canadian lumber on imported steel, aluminum and copper, which Simonson says is in the appliances, the electronics, the furniture, the lighting fixtures. And then there's specialty products. Decorative tile comes in part from Italy and from Spain. And so if we see tariffs on the eu, those might hit those particular products. Architect Dan Brun also says the alternative he keeps hearing to buy American instead won't help much, because even if, say, a stove is assembled here, he says the components inside come from overseas and face the same tariffs anyway. I'm Kayleigh Wells for Marketplace.

[Kai Ryssdal]

The unit of measure relevant for this next story is billions of cubic feet per day. The substance in question is natural gas. The Energy Information Administration says that last year 10 major pipeline projects added 6.5 billion cubic feet per day to what's called takeaway capacity, moving natural gas from where it's drilled to where it's used or for our purposes today from whence it's exported. Because roughly half of that new capacity is headed to Europe and other points overseas in the form of LNG liquefied natural gas. S and P Global, by the way, figures LNG export growth is going to double over the next five years. Marketplace's Elizabeth Troval has that one.

[Kristen Schwab]

This big new wave of US LNG exports started in 2016. That's after fracking revolutionized oil and gas production. Matthew Zaragoza Watkins is with UC Davis.

[Kai Ryssdal]

With the introduction of that technology, the.

[Kristen Schwab]

Supply curve of natural gas that was.

[Kai Ryssdal]

Available at cost effective prices really expanded significantly.

[Kristen Schwab]

And because natural gas plants run even when the sun doesn't shine and wind doesn't blow. Natural gas pairs well with those renewables as a cleaner alternative to coal. And it's cheap. The United States has a comparative advantage over many countries in terms of our abundant supplies of natural gas. Ed Herz is with University of Houston. We sell LNG to the global market. It goes to China, it goes to Europe, it goes to Asia and Latin America. But to get it around the world, pipelines and LNG export terminals are critical. It's at these terminals where Richard Meyer with the American Gas association says natural gas is sent through an industrial refrigeration process that super cools pipeline gas to minus 260 degrees Fahrenheit. And that's the temperature at which natural gas will turn into a liquid that really condenses the natural gas makes it very energy dense. But the infrastructure necessary to grow the LNG export market does face red tape, which is costly and time consuming. Though some of that burden should go away under Trump, says Matthew Zaragoza Watkins.

[Kai Ryssdal]

The willingness of the current administration to issue permits for new LNG export terminals is going to be a significant boon.

[Kristen Schwab]

To the industry, relieving some of the regulatory uncertainty around LNG's future. I'm Elizabeth Troval for Marketplace.

[Kai Ryssdal]

There are about 400,000 kids in this economy that's up to the age of 17 who are in foster care, data from the Annie E. Casey Foundation. And many of those young people, because they never get back to their biological families or they never get adopted, are going to age out of the foster system straight into adulthood with all the challenges that adulting brings getting a job, paying the rent, getting an education. There are programs to ease that transition. But a lot of foster youth don't know about them. And so by the time they turn 21, only 70% of foster kids have high school diplomas. Slightly more than half have a job. Less than 5% have an associate's degree or have gotten vocational training. But there are some places that are seeing better outcomes. As Marketplace's Mitchell Hartman reports, every year.

[Kristen Schwab]

Seven to 800 foster youth in Florida reach the age of 18 or 21, with no permanent legal family. I met one of them, Ahim King, recently at the Florida State University Library in Tallahassee. He's 21, active in his fraternity and groups that advocate for foster youth. I'm on my own. Once I graduated, I turned 18, I packed my bags. And against the odds, he got an associate's degree and is now two semesters away from his bachelor's in nursing, supported by A federally backed tuition and fee waiver for foster youth, along with a $1,720 a month stipend. When I first came here, I doubted myself, especially my intelligence. Am I supposed to be here? But I just had to tell myself, like, I'm coming. Confident. I got this. Kings worked all along the way to support himself. Taco Bell, race car place, subway. I was a cna, a certified nursing assistant. His friend, Quebeanna Peoples, who was in foster care from the age of six, has just started a bachelor's degree in criminology at Florida State. As a teenager, she couldn't work to earn her own money. I didn't have the right papers to get a job, birth certificate, Social Security at my group homes. There were some times if you was misbehaved, you didn't even get that allowance. And what was the allowance, do you remember? $30 a month. She's been lucky, getting advice from her foster mom and help from the tuition waiver and stipend. But she says a lot of foster youth do not know about that. So they be like, what's the point of graduating if my college is not going to get paid for? Who's going to pay for this? Who's going to pay for this? Fortunately for foster youth in Florida, there's an app to help them find out about the rights and benefits they're entitled to. Foster Power is the brainchild of Taylor Sartor, an attorney at Bay Area Legal Services in Tampa. She got the idea while representing foster youth in law school. They had questions, and the answers weren't in a guidebook. Am I supposed to get an allowance? I'm in a group home. One teenager was aging out of foster care. Soon wanted to know about extended foster care. What kind of benefits were going to be provided? Foster power, launched in 2023. Sartre's team just got a $400,000 grant to expand its reach in Florida and replicate it in other states. Legal aid lawyer Mary Rose Maloney walked me through the app on her mobile phone. It is very colorful. Foster Power has several sections. Immigration, independent living, all about court, health, education, money. In addition to providing information and legal references, the app features videos seeded with questions from foster youth. Like one about spending money. Did you know children in group home foster care must receive a monthly allowance? Did you also know that allowance can't be taken away as a form of punishment? I didn't know they weren't allowed to do that. I mean, if I knew that, I would have, like, 150 extra dollars to my name. Today, apps and other services like foster power play an important role in reaching young people. Zach Laris is a child welfare expert and former head of policy at the American Academy of pediatrics in Washington, D.C. young people are much more likely to pursue and follow up on opportunities when they hear about them from a trusted resource. Laris points out about 15% of federal tuition dollars earmarked for foster youth go unclaimed every year. Meanwhile, those who have aged out have lower education levels and earn about half what their peers do on average. Looking forward, Laris says child welfare advocates nationwide are worried about Republican plans to cut the federal budget, which could red spending on healthcare, education, housing and food assistance for foster youth. Anything and everything could be on the table. Cuts to Medicaid, for instance, could impact the vast majority of foster youth who get their health care through the program. I'm Mitchell Hartman for Marketplace.

[Kai Ryssdal]

Coming up, credit prices are going to.

[Kristen Schwab]

Start going up if these regulations stay.

[Kai Ryssdal]

In place when EVs aren't just about the EVs. But first, let's do the numbers. Dow Industrials off 260 points today 6 10% 41,581 the NASDAQ sank 304 points. 1.7% closed at 17,504. That was Nvidia, mostly S&P. 500 subtracted 60 points about 1.1%. 56 and 14. Tencent Music Entertainment Group that's China's biggest music streaming company, beat analysts estimates in its latest earnings, which routes today the company's revenue up 8.2% to just over $1 billion. Company has been oh look, integrating AI into its creative platforms. The company's U.S. shares surged 15.5% today. Spotify went the other way, down 4.7%. Serious XM holdings softened 1.8% bonds rose yield on the 10 year T note 4.28%. You're listening to Marketplace.

[Kristen Schwab]

For one hundred and forty years, MultiCare has been in Washington prioritizing long term solutions, partnering with local communities and expanding access to care. Together, we're building a healthier future. Learn [e-mail].

[Kai Ryssdal]

If you want to be savvy about the economy, the Marketplace newsletter is just what you need. Every Friday you'll get explainers and analysis that makes sense of everything from the moving markets to grocery prices. No jargon, no hype, just smart takes delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail] subscribe.

[Kristen Schwab]

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[Kai Ryssdal]

F o l dot com this is Marketplace. I'm Kai Ryssdal. There's a thing that happens with commodities trading that always struck me as funny. When you buy oil or copper or coffee or what have you, you're usually not buying the actual thing. You're buying what are called futures, an agreement to buy or sell the actual thing at some point in the yes, future. Because really, who wants a literal barrel of crude oil or 25,000 pounds of copper, which is the standard contract? Same goes for gold. Heavy, difficult to store securely. So people trade gold futures, which I mention because today gold hit yet another high in its recent run of them, north of $3,040 an ounce. Marketplace's Savannah Peters is on the precious.

[Kristen Schwab]

Metals desk for us today, gold doesn't pay dividends. You can't spend it at the grocery store, but it's considered a safer place to park your money. When other investments in, say, the US Stock market look like they're going south, people are seeing a lot of commercials in it. Running gold is at all time highs. Buy gold. They're sort of a mania. Lee Baker, president of Claris Financial Advisors in Atlanta, has been fielding lots of client calls on this topic. You know, it feels like everything is.

[Kai Ryssdal]

Falling down around us.

[Kristen Schwab]

Let's go to something that that's tangible. It's there for these clients. Gold just feels more real than stocks and bonds. It's not just anxious investors running up the price. Central banks are stocking up, too, in hopes the investment will endure this moment of economic uncertainty. Gold has this very long track record of holding its value over very long periods of time, says Campbell Harvey, a professor of finance at Duke Millennia. Even for most investors, their horizon is more like five to 10 years. And over those shorter time periods, the value of gold can be volatile just like any other commodity. Paolo Pasquarello, professor of finance at the University of Michigan, says gold is among several safe havens people flock to in times of turmoil, one of them US Treasuries. But right now, he says, they're less appealing to some investors.

[Kai Ryssdal]

Whether the money that you lend to the US Government is going to be.

[Kristen Schwab]

Returned, all of these things that are typically assumed as granted are not anymore. So Pascarello says investors who would typically be turning to US Bonds are buying up gold bars instead. I'm Savannah Peters for Marketplace.

[Kai Ryssdal]

The three hottest letters in the electric vehicle industry today are B, Y and D. The Chinese EV maker has a new kind of charging technology that it says can get a battery to 250 miles of range in just about the same amount of time it takes to fill up a gas tank 5 to 8 ish minutes. BYD you might have seen topped Tesla last year to become the world's biggest producer of battery powered vehicles. But lest you think the EV business is all about selling EVs, well, no. Back in January, Tesla reported its 2024 results. The revenue that the company earned selling cars fell by 8% compared to the year prior. But another smaller revenue stream rose by 54%. Sales of regulatory credits government issued regulatory credits Marketplace's Henry Epp explains what they are and why they matter so much to those EV companies.

[Kristen Schwab]

Regulatory credits exist because some governments around the world want people to eventually drive cars and trucks that don't run on gasoline. Governments including California's, which gives automakers credits for each electric vehicle they sell in the state. The farther a car can drive on a single charge, the more credits it gets. And each company has a quota of credits it needs to hit every year. Not all of them sell enough EVs to meet their mark, but when a car company falls short, it has another option. It has to buy credits from another automaker that has exceeded its quota. Pavel Malchanov is an analyst at Raymond James. He says that means traditional car companies are going to be paying for the credits from the pure electric companies, primarily Tesla and more recently, Rivian. They generate a lot of surplus credits because they only make electric vehicles. California is not the only place where carmakers get credits like this. The EPA has a similar system for fuel efficiency. So does the European Union. And so selling credits to traditional car companies is a pretty easy way for Tesla and Rivian to make money, says Tom Narayan at RBC Capital Markets. A lot easier than building a car, which comes with a lot of costs. And in the end, the profit margin on that car, it's only like 15%, let's say. But with a regulatory credit, it is 100% profit. Historically, credits have been one of Tesla's biggest sources of profits, says Seth Goldstein, an equity strategist at Morningstar. He says regulatory credits helped the carmaker stay afloat through its early years, when Tesla's underlying business was still unprofitable. It often used the credits as a.

[Kai Ryssdal]

Way to bridge the gap to profitability.

[Kristen Schwab]

Now Tesla's profitable, so it's using credit revenue to offset discounts on its cars, according to Tom Narayan at rbc. Rivian, meanwhile, is still losing money on its electric trucks and SUVs, so selling regulatory credits is helping keep it afloat. Neither company responded to requests for comment, but both could stand to gain in the years ahead. As California gets closer to its goal of phasing out gas cars by 2035, credit prices are going to start going.

[Kai Ryssdal]

Up if these regulations stay in place.

[Kristen Schwab]

Daniel Sperling directs the Institute for Transportation Studies at UC Davis, and he helped create the current regulatory credit system when he was a member of the California Air Resources Board. The future of these regulations is an if, because the Trump administration is pushing to revoke a federal waiver that allows California to set its own vehicle emissions rules. But car companies will keep moving towards electric vehicles anyway, Sperling says. Even if you gutted the requirements in California, these companies can't afford to sit on the sideline with EV technology.

[Kai Ryssdal]

They don't. They've all acknowledged this is the future.

[Kristen Schwab]

Because, he says, battery technology, vehicle range and charging infrastructure are all improving. That's thanks in large part to innovations made by Tesla, Sperling says. And Tesla has been able to innovate because it can sell regulatory credits. Tesla would have gone bankrupt without these regulatory credits, and that, he says, would have slowed down the automotive industry's transition to EVs. I'm Henry AP for Marketplace.

[Kai Ryssdal]

This final note on the way out today got this ironically, perhaps from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. According to data from US Customs and Border Protection last month just over 2.2 million people came from Canada into the United States by passenger vehicle, which is by far the most popular way to make that crossing. 2.2 million people does sound like a lot. Yes, until I tell you that that's a full half million people fewer than came last February. Also, and related, there is almost a trillion dollars in cross border trade between those two countries every year. For now, our Digital and On Demand team includes Kerry Barber, Jordan Manji, Filon Mietonen, Janet Wynn, Olga Oxman, Ellen Rothfuss, Virginia K. Smith, and Tony Wagner. Francesca Levy is the Executive Director of Digital and On Demand and I'm Kai Rysdal. We will see you tomorrow. Everybody. This is APM.

[Kristen Schwab]

Consumer confidence had its sharpest monthly decline since 2021, which means we're all in our feels about money. And while uncertainty is the only constant these days, it's also a great reason to get serious about understanding personal finance. I'm Janelie Espinal, host of Financially Inclined, a podcast from Marketplace that makes learning about money simple. Learn about practical skills like negotiating job offers, dealing with money and friendship and love, entrepreneurship and student loans. Get serious about your money and build a life you've always dreamed of. Listen to Financially Inclined wherever you get your podcasts.