“Their job is to make money. My job is to protect America’s national security.”

Summary

Marketplace Podcast Summary: “Their Job is to Make Money. My Job is to Protect America’s National Security”

Release Date: January 14, 2025
Host: Kai Ryssdal
Guest: Gina Raimondo, Outgoing Secretary of Commerce

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Introduction

In this episode of Marketplace, host Kai Ryssdal engages in a comprehensive conversation with Gina Raimondo, the outgoing Secretary of Commerce. Raimondo reflects on her tenure, discussing significant legislative achievements, the evolving economic landscape, and the intricate balance between fostering business growth and safeguarding national security.

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Farewell and Achievements

Departure and Focus Post-Election

As Gina Raimondo prepares to leave her role as Commerce Secretary, Ryssdal probes into how the recent election results have influenced her focus. Raimondo responds:

“They concentrated my mind very sharply, although I can’t say they changed the work I’m doing here very much. We have had a plan all along to make the bulk of these investments by the end of the administration, regardless of who won the election.”
— Gina Raimondo [02:34]

CHIPS Act and Investment Milestones

Raimondo highlights the Administration's commitment to the CHIPS Act and broadband expansion, emphasizing the strategic investments made to bolster American manufacturing and technological prowess.

“Under my leadership here, we will have invested $90 billion. When the president hired me to help rebuild American manufacturing, that’s exactly what we did.”
— Gina Raimondo [03:13]

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Balancing Business and National Security

Navigating Trade Policies and Export Controls

A central theme of the discussion centers on the delicate balance between supporting corporate interests and enforcing export controls to protect national security. Raimondo explains the pragmatic approach taken:

“If the US prevents US businesses from selling equipment or technology to China, but China can buy similar products from Japanese companies, it’s just not effective. We deny American companies revenue, which I never want to do.”
— Gina Raimondo [05:26]

She elaborates on the collaborative efforts with international partners to ensure that American companies remain competitive globally without compromising security.

Industry Relations and National Security

Addressing industry frustration, Raimondo calmly reiterates her priority:

“Their job’s to make money. My job’s to protect America’s national security. So I have no problem annoying them because China is going to use that to modernize their military and use it against Americans.”
— Gina Raimondo [06:39]

Strategy Against China’s Technological Rise

When discussing China, Raimondo uses a running race analogy to describe the competitive landscape:

“Export controls are like tugging on the shirt of your competitor a little bit. But fundamentally, you have to outrun them, which means more research and development, more innovation, more investments, better companies. We’re ahead of them now, and the way to stay ahead of them is to out-innovate them.”
— Gina Raimondo [07:44]

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Looking Ahead: Advice and Economic Outlook

Encouraging Future Innovators

Responding to a hypothetical question from a student, Raimondo offers pragmatic advice on sustaining America’s economic leadership:

“Build the companies that everybody wants to work at, build the technology that keeps us in the lead... Maybe go get a job at TSMC or maybe get a job at Intel or go start your own company.”
— Gina Raimondo [09:07]

She also underscores the importance of public-minded leadership:

“I might also tell them to run for office. We need good, publicly minded people, not self-interested people to run for office if we’re going to solve the biggest problems in front of us.”
— Gina Raimondo [09:14]

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Economic Insights and Updates

Producer Price Index (PPI) Analysis

Marketplace reporter Henry Epp breaks down the latest PPI data, highlighting a modest increase:

“The Producer Price Index was up 3.3% year on year, but notably up just 0.21% monthly in December, flat after stripping out the always volatile food and energy prices.”
— Henry Epp [11:13]

Leah Brooks of George Washington University comments on the implications for inflation control:

“We’re not out of the woods, but we’re near the edge of the woods.”
— Leah Brooks [11:52]

Transportation and Warehousing Costs

Raimondo and Jamie Hadari discuss rising costs in transportation and warehousing, attributing them to increased demand and strategic inventory management:

“Now carriers are able to increase prices more than they had been over the last couple of years.”
— Jamie Hadari [12:25]

Inflation Expectations and Labor Market

Kai Ryssdal and Kelly Wells explore consumer sentiment regarding inflation and employment, revealing nuanced concerns:

“Consumers expect household income to fall and spending to rise, but with consumer debt at record high levels, they may finally have to scale back spending.”
— Kelly Wells [21:10]

Commercial Real Estate and the Future of Work

Rise of Coworking Spaces

The episode delves into the transformation of commercial real estate, spotlighting CBRE’s acquisition of Industrious and the burgeoning coworking trend:

“In pre-pandemic times, big companies used to regularly sign long-term leases... Now, for satellite teams, the one to two-year contracts Industrious offers make sense.”
— Jamie Hadari [14:19]

Hybrid Work Models Impact

Flexible workplace consultant Caliost comments on the employer perspective of coworking:

“Employers have to know what they want their employees to do when they force them to leave the house.”
— Caliost [16:10]

Raimondo emphasizes prioritizing work over workspace:

“You’ve got to lead with the work, not the space. Start with the what and then the where.”
— Gina Raimondo [16:24]

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Detroit Auto Show: Tradition Meets Innovation

Historical Significance and Modern Challenges

Mark Levin reports on the Detroit Auto Show's return to January, reflecting on its storied history and adaptation to contemporary trends:

“Detroiters love their cars. It’s the Motor City. Our parents, our grandparents, even my peers all work for a car company. So cars are a part of life.”
— Matt Levin [23:12]

Adapting to New Realities

The shift back to colder months and competition with events like CES is discussed, with Raimondo affirming the show's enduring appeal despite harsh weather:

“You take your life into your own hands to get to this Detroit Auto Show, and it will be worth it.”
— Gina Raimondo [25:51]

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Small Business Optimism

Positive Outlook Amid Challenges

Kai Ryssdal concludes with encouraging news on small businesses, highlighting a six-year high in the National Federation of Independent Business’s optimism index:

“Small businesses are feeling pretty good these days. Members are expecting the best sales growth they’ve had since 2020.”
— Kai Ryssdal [26:49]

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Conclusion

This episode of Marketplace offers a deep dive into the complexities of balancing economic growth with national security, the evolving landscape of workspaces, and the resilient optimism of small businesses. Gina Raimondo’s insights provide a valuable perspective on the Administration’s accomplishments and the challenges ahead, especially in maintaining America’s competitive edge in a rapidly changing global economy.

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Notable Quotes:

• “Their job’s to make money. My job’s to protect America’s national security.”
  — Gina Raimondo [06:39]

• “If you take your life into your own hands to get to this Detroit Auto Show, and it will be worth it.”
  — Gina Raimondo [25:51]

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For more details and to listen to the full episode, visit Marketplace.org.

Transcript

[Gina Raimondo]

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[Kai Rysdal]

You work hard at something for four long years, what kind of parting thoughts do you suppose you'd have from American Public Media? This is Marketplace in Los Angeles. I'm Kyle rysnal. Tuesday today, the 14th of January. Good as always to have you along everybody. The political news of this day was the start to confirmation hearings for President elected Trump's cabinet nominees. Details of this particular day's events to be had elsewhere in your news feed. For every new person coming into the cabinet though, one is leaving, including Commerce Secretary Ginormondo, who we have gotten on the phone one last time. Madam Secretary, welcome back to the program.

[Gina Raimondo]

Thank you. Kai.

[Kai Rysdal]

Yes.

[Gina Raimondo]

I just wanted to say I know you're in la.

[Kai Rysdal]

Yeah.

[Gina Raimondo]

And it's just unbelievable to see how tragic this situation is. So to you and your teammates and everybody out there, heart goes out to you and we're thinking of you.

[Kai Rysdal]

I appreciate that thought. I'm one of the very lucky ones out here. It's been rough. So to the case at hand, you have been working hard the past several months based on everything that's coming out of your department on the CHIPS act and AI regulation and all that jazz. And I guess the first question is how sharply did the results of the election concentrate your mind?

[Gina Raimondo]

Well, they concentrated my mind very sharply, although I can't say they changed the work I'm doing here very much. We have had a plan all along to make the bulk of these investments by the end of the administration, regardless of who won the election. And we're sticking to that plan. We'll have invested almost all of the CHIPS money and the broadband money by the end of the week, which was our plan all along, and I'm proud of the team.

[Kai Rysdal]

Your people have said you want to cement a massive Industrial legacy. I guess I wonder if that's what you thought you were going to be doing when you took this job.

[Gina Raimondo]

You know, in a way I did, a way I didn't. Of course, I couldn't have predicted we'd be so successful. You know, the Commerce Department, under my leadership here, we will have invested $90 billion. That being said, when the president hired me for this job, he asked me to take the job to help rebuild American manufacturing. And so certainly that's why I did it. You know, when I hear President Trump say we're just going to tariff our way to a revitalization of American manufacturing, I don't believe that you need to make investments, and that's what I'm proud of that we've done.

[Kai Rysdal]

Setting aside for a second the question of President Trump's promised tariffs, about which there will be more on this program and certainly in the news in the months in which to come, how worried are you about what President Trump clearly plans to do with this economy, which is more isolationist, less involved overseas, and perhaps rolling back some of what you and President Biden have set out to do in this administration?

[Gina Raimondo]

Well, he's inaugurated in a few days, and let's see what he does. I will say I met a week ago with my successor. It was a very productive meeting. You know, everything I've worked on, Kai, the CHIPS act, broadband is bipartisan. We still enjoy strong Republican support. Becoming isolationist, 100% tariffs. These are not good moves for our economy. But let's see what they do rather than what they've been saying.

[Kai Rysdal]

Speaking of bipartisanship, there's another sort of angle on this, right? You've got Democrats and Republicans who generally favor what has been done in their specific districts or states to use the money that President Biden and the Congress and you have seen fit to spend. There is, of course, the corporate challenge, right? Corporations are grateful, as we talked about last time, for the seed investment that you have made, but they are also sort of chafing a bit at some of the AI regulations. The tech firms are not happy with some of your restrictions on exports. How do you balance what the tech companies want, which is sales and money, versus what you decide and President Biden decides are in the national interests and in national security concerns.

[Gina Raimondo]

Just as you said, it's a balance. And you have to be practical with export controls. You know, if the US Prevents US Businesses from selling equipment or technology to China, but China can buy similar product from a Japanese company, a Korean company, a German company, it's just not effective. And as you said, you deny American companies revenue, which I never want to do. So in the case of semiconductors, we've worked in an unprecedented way with the Japanese, the Koreans, the Germans, and the Dutch to align our controls so that American companies aren't at a competitive disadvantage with their European and Asian competitors. It's also the other thing that I've learned, Kai. There's no substitute for a huge, significant amount of industry engagement. You just can't engage enough with industry to learn, like, where to draw the cut line. And as you say, you want to draw it in a way that protects national security, but doesn't deny companies revenue that they need.

[Kai Rysdal]

I get that you have to work with. With industry, but industry is, in some regards, a little irritated with you. Right on this.

[Gina Raimondo]

Yeah. You know, and that's fine, too. I'm very comfortable with that. Their jobs to make money. My job's to protect America's national security. So I have no problem annoying them because China is going to use that to modernize their military and use it against Americans. My only point is this is really sophisticated, complicated technology. And so the only way that we can learn is if we get into the weeds of the technology. And that means talking to industry to understand it.

[Kai Rysdal]

Let me dig in on China just a little bit. You have said in the past, trying to hold China back. This is a quote. Trying to hold China back is a fool's errand. Does that mean you got to work with China or you got to stand in their way? How do you manage that relationship? Right. And I realize I'm asking the woman who's on her way out, but what have you been doing?

[Gina Raimondo]

You know, our export controls have been effective and they slow China down. Not to oversimplify it, but, you know, I think about it in terms of a running race. Export controls are like tugging on the shirt of your competitor a little bit.

[Kai Rysdal]

Hmm.

[Gina Raimondo]

But fundamentally, you have to outrun them, which means more research and development, more innovation, more investments, better companies. We're ahead of them now, and the way to stay ahead of them is to out innovate them.

[Kai Rysdal]

I don't know if you remember this, but maybe a time or two ago when we talked, I told you about this kid in my daughter's high school who I went to speak to their economic club. And he was a sharp kid. And he asked me about tsmc, which, as you know, has received billions of dollars from the US Government and is building a huge plant out in Phoenix that we went to go see. And he said, why do These companies need American government support and we had a conversation about that, you and I did. I guess the last thing I want to ask you is what do you say to a kid, well, I guess he's now a sophomore in college. What do you say to him about the future of the American economy in a politically perilous time when the rise of the rest, specifically China, is a very, very real issue?

[Gina Raimondo]

I would say to that kid, America is the best country on the earth, the safest country on the earth, the strongest country.

[Kai Rysdal]

Okay, wait. Okay, wait. Sorry, sorry. With all possible respect, give me the real answer, not the platitudes, right? I mean, you and I have talked. You and I have talked enough over the years that I think I can poke you in the eye a little bit. It.

[Gina Raimondo]

You can, but this is what I think. But what I would tell the kid, look, it's the best place. Where would you rather be, Kai?

[Kai Rysdal]

Nowhere else. Nowhere else. But, but I'm not the one on the spot.

[Gina Raimondo]

But what I, what I would say to him is, is the best place there is. But I would tell him, I don't know this person, but maybe go get a job at TSMC or maybe get a job at intel or go start your own company. Because the only way that we can stay in the lead is to build, you know, build the companies that everybody wants to work at, build the technology that keeps us in the lead. I might also tell them to run for office. We need good, publicly minded people, not self interested people to run for office if we're going to solve the biggest problems in front of us.

[Kai Rysdal]

Gina Raimondo, Secretary of Commerce Ma'am, thanks for your time. It's been great talking to you.

[Gina Raimondo]

Yes. Have a great year. Happy New Year.

[Kai Rysdal]

Inauguration day this year is a federal holiday, by the way. MLK Day. Stocks aren't going to trade today though. Little up, little down. Details, numbers. You all know the drill. In inflation news this week, there are two data points to be had. We'll get a new read on consumer prices tomorrow. Inflation at the wholesale level was this morning the Producer Price index by actual name, up 3.3% year on year, but notably up just 210 of 1% monthly in December flat actually, after you strip out the always volatile food and energy prices. But if you look a little ways up the supply chain, the inflation story gets a bit more complicated as marketplaces. Henry Epp reports.

[Henry Epp]

Quick refresher PPI measures in part how much retailers pay, says Leah Brooks, a professor at the George Washington University.

[Leah Brooks]

So if you make nails and you sell nails to Home Depot. This index is about the price at which you're selling the nails to Home Depot, not the price at which Home Depot is selling the nails to you when you go to the store.

[Henry Epp]

So today's report tells us that the nail makers of this economy and other producers overall didn't raise their prices much in December. And because those prices influence how much we consumers pay for things, that's generally good news for the Federal Reserve's long fight to bring inflation down, Brooks says.

[Leah Brooks]

Maybe the best way to think of it is that we're not out of the woods, but we're near the edge of the woods.

[Henry Epp]

We're not quite out because inflation overall is still a bit higher than the Fed would like it to be. And there are pressure points ahead that could keep us in the woods for a while longer. 1 Higher costs of transportation and warehousing. Those costs ticked up 2.2% in December. Zach Rogers at Colorado State University says that may be because after years of having extra space, trucks got a bit fuller towards the end of the year.

[Gina Raimondo]

And so because that we are seeing.

[Jamie Hadari]

Now carriers able to increase prices more than they had been over the last couple of years.

[Henry Epp]

And in warehousing, he says anecdotally, a.

[Jamie Hadari]

Lot of people are pulling inventory forward, it seems like in order to avoid any potential tariffs with the incoming administration.

[Henry Epp]

Loading up on inventory, he says, means less available warehouse space, which means potentially higher prices for that space. Other Trump administration policies could also affect prices, says Denny Cohen, EMSE head of economic analysis at Morning Consult.

[Leah Brooks]

Deporting undocumented workers as well as tax rate cuts, all will have an effect on inflation down the line.

[Henry Epp]

One of the first places those effects may show up is in the producer price index. I'm Henriett for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

The past, what, five years have not been kind to the commercial real estate market offices in particular. See also this post Pandemic economy But there are some green shoots especially in demand for part time offices. The commercial real estate giant CBRE said today it's buying the flexible workplace company Industrious in a deal worth about $800 million. Turns out that whole hybrid work thing, it's been a boon for the coworking industry. Marketplace's Matt Levin has this one.

[Jamie Hadari]

In pre pandemic times, big companies used to regularly sign long term leases for office space like 10 years or longer. And that made sense in a more predictable world where your entire workforce slogged to the same sad cubicles five days a week from the same sad suburbs. Not so much when you're managing that hybrid satellite team in Denver you just staffed up last year, nobody on earth knows how many employees they're going to have in Denver in 2033, which makes.

[Kai Rysdal]

10 year leases tough.

[Jamie Hadari]

Jamie Hadari is CEO of Industrious, that coworking company CBRE acquired. To be clear, corporations are still signing some long term leases for office space, especially for big shiny headquarters. But for that satellite team, management wants to meet in person two to three days a week. The one to two year contracts Industrious offers make sense. Our revenue's up 3x since COVID Industrious coworking model is a bit more like an office Airbnb. Typically shorter term rentals for companies to take over an entire floor. Not the pre pandemic co working stereotype where a bunch of freelance graphic designers hang out at the WeWork kombucha station. Travis Howell researches co working at Arizona State University. A lot of the co working spaces I talk to, who you know, used to only cater to entrepreneurs or freelancers are now catering to these companies. Howell says some firms will even pay for just one or two employees to go to a co working site to work next to strangers. It's just to keep their employees happy. It's hard sometimes being at home five days a week. Although if you think co working is the solution for the forever war between employer and employee over return to office, flexible workplace consultant Caliost is skeptical. She says employers have to know what they want their employees to do when they force them to leave the house.

[Gina Raimondo]

You've got to lead with the work, not the space. As I always say, you have to start with the what and then the where.

[Jamie Hadari]

Even if the where does include a Kombucha station. I'm Matt Levin from Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

There is no Kombucha station here at Marketplace World headquarters. We have coffee, maybe some tea. I think that's about it. We also have a podcast if you miss us on the air. Marketplace.org is where you get that or the platform of your choice. Just follow us there. I am a recent Kombucha convert, for what it's worth.

[Matt Levin]

Anyway, coming up, our parents, our grandparents, even, you know, my peers all work for a car company.

[Kai Rysdal]

The family business. You might say first though. Sure, why not? Let's do the numbers. Dow industrial is up 221 points today, about a half percent, 42,518. The NASDAQ down 43 points. That's a quarter percent finished at 19,044. The S&P 500 pocketed six points about a tenth percent. 58 and 42 there. The LA fires still burning by the way. Winds seem to be calm downtown. Near as I can tell anyway, they are going to be very expensive. Besides the loss of life insurance companies are going to pick up most of that. Allstate Corporation picked up 2 1/3% today. Travelers Companies Incorporated up 1 1/2%. Chubb Limited added 1.4%. Producer Price Index that Henry Epp was just telling us about showed a 9.7% jump in gasoline prices in December. You want to know why? We strip out food and energy prices. That's why. ExxonMobil crept up 4. 10%. Valero Energy accelerated a half percent. Chevron increased 1% today. Meta told employees it's going to cut 5% of its workforce in the coming year. Focused on, quote, the lowest performers. It's the biggest layoff for the company since 2021. Meta shrank 2.3% today. The percentage of workers who feel engaged at work dipped to a ten year low last year. That's according to Gallup, the polling firm. Asked about things like clarity of expectations and feeling cared about as a person at work, just 31% of people surveyed reported feeling engaged in their jobs. The same statistic, though also 31% for managers feeling engaged. Make of that what you will. You're listening to Marketplace. Hey, it's Kai. My minivan and I, as I've said on the radio, have logged a lot of miles with Marketplace. Luckily it's still running, you know, pretty well. But if your car doesn't drive as well as it used to, listen up. It can still help drive Marketplace. When you donate your old car or truck, we'll use the proceeds to support the great programs you hear every day. Start your vehicle [e-mail] vehicle this is Marketplace. I'm Kai Rysdal. 3% seems to be about where people's inflation expectations are settling. Remember, what consumers think is going to happen with prices can affect what actually happens. Anyway, those expectations were the subject of a Federal Reserve bank of New York survey out this week showing them, that is to say, the expectations to be anchored, which is a good thing. Also, though, and a related but different concern, people are increasingly worried about finding a new job. Last month people's confidence in getting hired fell to the lowest it's been since 2021. And people say they are less likely to lose or quit a job. Now the thing is that that's not how hiring and firing usually works. Generally, when one of them goes up, the other one goes down. These days, though, consumers think both are likely to go down. Marketplace's Kelly Wells explains why.

[Kaylee Wells]

It looks like a contradiction, but senior economist Preston Moy with Employee America says consumer expectations about hiring and firing confirm what employer data already shows.

[Gina Raimondo]

Businesses right now are not really looking.

[Kaylee Wells]

To expand their workforce, but that doesn't mean the labor market is shrinking. It's just frozen.

[Gina Raimondo]

Layoff rates are low, but also hiring rates are low.

[Kaylee Wells]

The red hot post pandemic labor market has been weakening for years now, yet consumers in the survey said they are less worried about losing a job and they're just less angsty in general. Economics professor Paul Shea of Bates College says that's because consumers have watched inflation decline over the past couple years.

[Matt Levin]

I think they're feeling that things are.

[Jamie Hadari]

Getting a little bit better economically for them, and that's kind of leading to generally higher confidence across the board.

[Kaylee Wells]

Shea says that could partially explain why consumers said they expect household income to fall and spending to rise.

[Jamie Hadari]

Consumers are basically taking on more debt in order to reconcile what seems like.

[Gina Raimondo]

A bit of a paradox here.

[Kai Rysdal]

I don't expect to be making more.

[Gina Raimondo]

But I can expect to continue consuming.

[Matt Levin]

At a pretty high clip.

[Kaylee Wells]

Although higher spending doesn't always mean consumers are feeling warm and fuzzy about the economy. Dan Ariely teaches psychology and behavioral economics at Duke University University.

[Gina Raimondo]

It's not the cognition is leading them to these two things. One is the cognitive approach and one is the emotional approach.

[Kaylee Wells]

Ariely says that short term spending and racking up debt is an emotional response. Think three takeout dinners in a week because you just can't deal.

[Gina Raimondo]

I think people are a little sick and tired and they want some bright spots.

[Kaylee Wells]

Paul Shea at Bates College says that can only last so long. With consumer debt at record high levels and potential new tariffs on the horizon, consumers may finally have to scale back spending in 2020. Hi, I'm Kaylee Wells for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

Tennis has the Australian Open, college football has the bowl games and for years in the American auto industry, the beginning of the year meant the Detroit Auto Show, a chance for carmakers to show off their latest and greatest and for car lovers to gawk at same. This year's version opened over the weekend, a switch back from what turned out to be an ill fated move to warmer months. Michigan Public's Laura Weber Davis has more.

[Leah Brooks]

For people who live in or near Detroit, the annual auto show brings up a lot of memories. Usually something like this.

[Matt Levin]

It was always freezing cold.

[Leah Brooks]

That's Shannon Cason. He's a writer and lifelong Detroiter in.

[Matt Levin]

Boots and Big coats and, you know, your feet getting wet right before you get in on those carpeted floors always comes to mind for every year.

[Leah Brooks]

He says it's all part of the tradition here.

[Matt Levin]

Well, Detroiters love their cars. It's the Motor City. Our parents, our grandparents, even, you know, my peers all work for a car company. So cars are a part of life.

[Leah Brooks]

And so are the freezing temps in January.

[Matt Levin]

I think going to the auto show in the cold, feet hurting, fingers hurting. That discomfort makes me remember going to the auto show when I was 10, 12, 15 years old.

[Leah Brooks]

You know, for much of the show's history, this cold was part of the deal. It's been in January most years since the first Detroit Auto show back in 1899. Back then, it featured just two electric and two steam powered cars. Here's the city's official historian, Jamon Jordan.

[Matt Levin]

This was like an oddity, these horseless carriages.

[Leah Brooks]

He says Detroiters really took to the show and so did the visitors. It can draw upwards of 800,000 people in a week.

[Matt Levin]

That means hotels consider it important, restaurants consider it important, nightclubs, bars. So it becomes a major boom, particularly to the businesses and entities and institutions that are downtown or near downtown.

[Leah Brooks]

In 2018, organizers made an announcement that shocked the community. The auto show would move to June. They wanted warmer months to give the showcase more of a festival vibe. Then organizers canceled the June shows in 2020 and 2021 because of COVID They tried September for a couple years, but attendance was clearly down.

[Jamie Hadari]

It has bounced around. It is trying to find a spot.

[Leah Brooks]

That's Glenn Stephens. He's with a Detroit based industry advocacy group.

[Jamie Hadari]

Mish Auto was very much a victim of the COVID situation and all that changed with that world. But it's also an industry that's changed tremendously.

[Leah Brooks]

And attendance at big events has fluctuated. Shows like CES have stolen away some of the attention. That's the huge Vegas tech show that's also in January. The auto industry plays a bigger and bigger role at CES these days. So that's why Stevens says the Detroit Auto show needs to get back to its roots as a consumer driven event. And oddly, consumers here seem to want a freezing cold auto show.

[Gina Raimondo]

It's 25 degrees out here.

[Leah Brooks]

Detroit based auto journalist Phoebe Wall Howard is outside of the event center where the auto show has long been held downtown.

[Gina Raimondo]

You take your life into your own hands to get to this Detroit Auto show, and it will be worth it. In fact, I talked to a guy from Florida who's flying in for the auto show. And he's like, damn the weather, it's all worth it.

[Leah Brooks]

She says those warm months in Michigan were likely never going to take off for the auto show.

[Gina Raimondo]

People have too many competing activities, sailing, paddle, swimming, hiking, and it really drains the crowd.

[Leah Brooks]

But in January, in the lull after the new year, you have a total captive audience in Detroit. I'm Laura Weber Davis for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

This final note on the way out today, which I'll preface by noting that small businesses account for, give or take, two thirds of all new jobs created in this economy. Data comes to us courtesy of the Small Business Administration. Told you that so I could tell you this. Small businesses are feeling pretty good these days. The National Federation of Independent Business says its optimism index now sits at a six year high. Also, the group says its members are expecting the best sales growth they've had since 2020. Our digital and On Demand team includes Carrie Barber, Jordan Mangy, Dylan Methen and Janet Wynne, Olga Oxman, Ellen Rolfos, Virginia K. Smith and Tony Wagner. Francesca Levy is the executive director of Digital and On Demand. And I'm Kyle Rysdal. We will see you tomorrow. Everybody, this is.

[Gina Raimondo]

Hi. This is Nicole from Camphill, Pennsylvania. I'm always surprised how much Content Marketplace can pack into 30 minutes. Listening is part of my daily routine. I love the way they make the content digestible and relatable. For us folks who don't have a strong background in economics or business, join me by making a gift to Marketplace [e-mail].