What does the crypto industry want?

Summary

Marketplace Podcast Summary: "What Does the Crypto Industry Want?" Marketplace | Hosted by Amy Scott | Release Date: November 11, 2024

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1. Crypto Industry Regulatory Efforts

Timestamp: 00:29 – 03:19

The episode opens with a significant highlight of the crypto market's resilience, with Bitcoin reaching a record price of over $87,000 amidst post-election optimism. The crypto industry's substantial investment in election campaigns, particularly supporting President-elect Donald Trump, underscores their strategic moves to influence favorable regulatory outcomes. Donald Trump’s pledge to position the United States as the "crypto capital of the planet" and his family's involvement in a new crypto business reflect the industry's ambitions.

Stephanie Hughes reports on Coinbase's stance in the evolving regulatory landscape:

• "Coinbase would now like to see the new Congress pass new laws, including one that would clearly define what crypto assets are and who exactly is in charge of making the rules governing them." [01:40]

Paul Grewal, Coinbase's Chief Legal Officer, emphasizes the industry's push for clear legal definitions to foster growth and reduce legal ambiguities:

• "All of us are begging for sensible standards that would allow us to get back to building great products and services and spend less time and frankly, less money arguing over legal definitions and statutes." [02:10]

Similarly, Dante Disparte of Circle advocates for comprehensive stablecoin legislation to align digital currencies with existing international laws:

• "A US Law would mean existing international laws wouldn't dictate how digital dollars are regulated." [02:35]

Gil Luria from DA Davidson comments on the industry's maturation:

• "Early on in the crypto industry people didn't want regulation because part of the ethos was this decentralized we can do whatever we want wherever we want. And then people started going to jail and everybody realized, well, I can't actually do whatever I want whenever I want." [02:51]

Luria further adds that clear regulations will provide the necessary framework for companies to operate confidently:

• "Rules will help those in the industry figure out what they can do because there will be clear laws to guide them." [03:09]

2. Market Updates and Inflation

Timestamp: 03:19 – 06:03

Amy Scott transitions to the broader economic landscape, noting a bullish trend in the stock market with the Dow Jones hitting a record high. However, concerns loom over inflation trends, with the Consumer Price Index (CPI) expected to show a consistent rise of 2.10% for October, potentially indicating stalled progress towards the Federal Reserve's 2% inflation target.

Kristen Schwab discusses the implications of the inflation data:

• "One month of weird inflation data is just one month. But Sean Snaith... says a few months is eyebrow raising." [04:18]

Sean Snaith from the University of Central Florida highlights the shifting dynamics:

• "They left the door open to either cut further or not." [04:54]

The uncertainty extends to the Federal Reserve's strategies, influenced by new administration policies and their impact on the job market and inflation. Betsy Ladize notes the dual mandate challenges:

• "Fewer openings and fewer people quitting... means wages are less likely to outpace inflation." [05:30]
• "While the Fed is cutting right now, it might have to cut at a slower pace to make sure inflation doesn't stall but keeps coming down." [05:47]

3. Rising Beef Prices

Timestamp: 06:03 – 08:31

The conversation shifts to the agricultural sector, focusing on the surge in beef prices. Justin Ho reports that cattle futures have risen nearly 10% from August to October, driven by supply constraints and increased production costs.

Naomi Bloom, Senior Market Advisor at Total Farm Marketing, attributes the price hike to drought conditions in key cattle-producing regions:

• "Over the last few months, it's been particularly dry in cattle country... droughts mean less hay." [06:23]

This scarcity forces ranchers to reduce herd sizes, thereby limiting beef supply. Glenn Tonser from Kansas State University adds that rising production costs, including feed, labor, and land rent, further pressure beef prices:

• "Almost all of those entries are going to be higher than they were certainly before the pandemic." [07:03]

Despite dwindling supplies, consumer demand remains robust, with slight shifts towards more affordable beef cuts like hamburger meat. However, Naomi Bloom points out potential factors that could stabilize prices:

• "Cattle imports are up from countries including Australia, Brazil, and Uruguay, and the weather could always improve." [07:32]

4. Long Covid Research Program Challenges

Timestamp: 08:31 – 13:28

The podcast delves into the ongoing struggles with Long Covid, even after significant federal investment. Samantha Fields highlights frustrations from patients and researchers regarding the slow progress of the NIH's Recover Patients program, which has received over $1.5 billion but has yet to yield approved treatments.

Betsy Ladize, co-founder of the Sick Times, shares his personal experience with Long Covid and the broader patient community's concerns:

• "The first two years, especially, there was a lot of hope about the response to long Covid... Today, McCone is still sick." [08:57]
• "Most of the research money so far has gone into trying to learn more about what long Covid is, rather than focusing on treatments and clinical trials." [10:28]

Dr. Serena Spudich from Yale underscores the necessity of understanding the condition's underlying mechanisms to develop effective treatments:

• "There has to be a very, very strong urgency for finding treatments... we will only find treatments if we understand the condition properly." [10:35]

Criticism arises regarding the allocation of funds, with Dr. Ziad Ali suggesting that earlier, less costly research could have provided substantial insights:

• "His team and others did similar research earlier in the pandemic for peanuts... that generated evidence much more robustly and faster." [11:22]

In response to the challenges, the NIH has allocated an additional $515 million to shift focus toward clinical trials. David Petrino emphasizes the need for diversified and numerous drug targets:

• "RECOVER could do a bunch of smaller trials... testing a hundred drugs and moving into more sophisticated clinical trial strategies." [12:06]

Advocates remain cautiously optimistic but stress the necessity for continued and increased funding:

• "No matter what comes of this current slate of funding, more is going to be needed." [12:41]

Legislative efforts, such as the Long Covid Research Moonshot Act, aim to secure sustained financial support:

• "It would provide a billion dollars a year for 10 years for long Covid research." [12:53]

5. Climate Tech Investment Decline

Timestamp: 15:16 – 21:04

As global leaders convene for COP 29, the podcast addresses the declining interest in climate tech investments within the United States. Michelle Ma from Bloomberg outlines the broad scope of climate tech, encompassing renewable energy, carbon capture, green hydrogen, nuclear fusion, and advanced battery technologies.

However, funding for climate tech startups is projected to decrease by approximately 50% this year. Michelle Ma identifies key factors contributing to this downturn:

• "It's a very capital intensive sector... considered by some investors to be riskier because they're still in the early stages of development." [16:32]
• "Climate tech focused funds... generalist investors have been told to turn all of their attention to AI this quarter." [17:35]

The shift towards artificial intelligence (AI) investments has "sucked all the oxygen out of the room," diverting capital away from climate solutions. Michelle Ma discusses the paradox of AI’s energy-intensive nature potentially exacerbating the climate crisis:

• "AI is keeping natural gas online for longer... some investors are seeing capital that could have been funneled towards climate startups going towards buzzier AI startups instead." [18:22]

The potential withdrawal of federal support under the Trump administration poses additional risks to the climate tech sector. Michelle Ma warns that the absence of federal incentives could significantly impede progress:

• "If those federal dollars disappear, if those tax credits disappear, that could make a huge difference in how much progress we're able to make or not make." [19:48]

6. U.S. Forest Service Budget Cuts

Timestamp: 21:04 – 25:40

The episode also examines impending budget cuts to the U.S. Forest Service, which threatens essential services in national forests. Caitlin Tan from Wyoming Public Radio illustrates the critical role of nonprofits in maintaining forest infrastructure, such as the Bridger Teton National Forest.

Faced with a proposed $500 million reduction, the Forest Service struggles to sustain operations like campground maintenance and trail upkeep. Scott Kosiba from Friends of the Bridger Teton highlights the vital partnership:

• "They agreed to do the job at about a third of that $120,000. The toilet stayed open and clean, thanks to workers like Rhett Jones." [22:39]

This collaboration underscores the necessity of nonprofit support in the face of federal budget constraints, ensuring public health and safety within national parks. Naomi Bloom emphasizes the non-glamorous yet essential tasks managed by these partnerships:

• "It's not a sexy part of keeping access for the public, but it is so, so important." [22:12]

As lawmakers negotiate the federal budget, the future of critical services like the Forest Service remains uncertain, with nonprofits stepping in to fill the gaps:

• "The Forest Service is about to get its knees cut out from under it." [24:47]

7. Conclusion and Final Notes on Climate Finance

Timestamp: 25:40 – 26:36

In closing, the podcast references the International Chamber of Commerce's report on the economic impact of climate-related extreme weather events, totaling at least $2 trillion globally over the past decade—the United States being the most affected. This underscores the urgent need for sustained and increased investment in climate solutions, aligning with the ongoing discussions at COP 29.

Amy Scott encapsulates the interconnectedness of global events and personal economies, reinforcing Marketplace's mission to provide context beyond the numbers.

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Notable Quotes:

• "All of us are begging for sensible standards that would allow us to get back to building great products and services and spend less time and frankly, less money arguing over legal definitions and statutes." — Paul Grewal, Coinbase [02:10]

• "Early on in the crypto industry people didn't want regulation because part of the ethos was this decentralized we can do whatever we want wherever we want... then people started going to jail and everybody realized, well, I can't actually do whatever I want whenever I want." — Gil Luria, DA Davidson [02:51]

• "If those federal dollars disappear, if those tax credits disappear, that could make a huge difference in how much progress we're able to make or not make." — Michelle Ma, Bloomberg [19:48]

• "It's not a sexy part of keeping access for the public, but it is so, so important." — Naomi Bloom, Total Farm Marketing [22:12]

• "While the Fed is cutting right now, it might have to cut at a slower pace to make sure inflation doesn't stall but keeps coming down." — Betsy Ladize [05:47]

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This comprehensive summary captures the multifaceted discussions in the Marketplace episode, providing listeners with a clear understanding of the crypto industry's regulatory aspirations, economic trends, sectoral challenges, and the broader implications on climate and public health initiatives.

Transcript

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Amy Scott]

The crypto industry looks to cash in on its election bets. The latest on inflation plus what the rise of AI means for climate investment. From American Public Media. This is Marketplace in Baltimore. I'm Amy Scott in for Kai rysdal. It's Monday, November 11th. Good to have you with us. Bitcoin continued its post election rally today, hitting a record price of more than $87,000. The cryptocurrency industry spent millions of dollars to help elect pro crypto candidates this election, including President Elect Donald Trump, who promised to make the United States the crypto capital of the planet and whose family has a new crypto business. World Liberty Financial Marketplace's Stephanie Hughes has more on what the industry wants in the next four years.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Coinbase is one of the largest crypto exchanges in the world. Paul Grewal is its chief legal officer and he is feeling good right now.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Biggest winner last week was crypto.

[Stephanie Hughes]

This comes after the Biden administration took a pretty aggressive approach to crypto. Greywall says Coinbase would now like to see the new Congress pass new laws, including one that would clearly define what crypto assets are and who exactly is in charge of making the rules governing them. He says a lot of crypto companies want this.

[Sponsor Announcer]

All of us are begging for sensible standards that would allow us to get back to building great products and services and spend less time and frankly, less money arguing over legal definitions and statutes.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Coinbase and another big crypto company, Circle, are also hungering for a law around stablecoins. These are digital currencies. Their value is linked to an existing asset, often a fiat currency such as the dollar. Circle issues stablecoins that include digital dollars and digital euros. Dante Disparte is chief strategy officer and head of global policy for the company. He says a US Law would mean existing international laws wouldn't dictate how digital.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Dollars are regulated, because for so many operators around the world, you know, the real missing Link has been U.S. legal and regulatory clarity.

[Stephanie Hughes]

This desire for rules represents a maturing of the industry after some in it have faced legal action, says Gil Luria with DA Davidson.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I mean, I think early on in the crypto industry people didn't want regulation because part of the ethos was this decentralized we can do whatever we want wherever we want. And then people started going to jail and everybody realized, well, I can't actually do whatever I want whenever I want.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Luria says rules will help those in the industry figure out what they can do because there will be clear laws to guide them. I'm Stephanie Hughes for Marketplace on Wall.

[Amy Scott]

Street today, Green across the board. We'll have the details when we do the number. Looking ahead this week, we'll get the latest read on inflation. The consumer price index for October comes out on Wednesday. For each of the last three months, the CPI has been pretty consistent, rising by 2.10percent month to month. Analysts are expecting a similar increase in this next report, which would mean the Federal Reserve's progress on getting annual inflation down to its target of 2% may be stalling out. Marketplace's Kristen Schwab has more.

[Kristen Schwab]

One month of weird inflation data is just one month. But Sean Snaith, who directs the University of Central Florida's Institute for Economic Forecasting, says a few months is eyebrow raising.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This slowdown of progress towards the target rate become more of a feature over the course of this year than some sort of statistical quirk, he says.

[Kristen Schwab]

A slowdown isn't a terrible thing, but it's not a good thing either, which might have the Fed holding its breath. Bill English, a former Fed official, says usually at Fed meetings, we get an idea of what's in store at the next one. But last week, you know, I don't.

[Sean Snaith]

Think we really did. They left the door open to either cut further or not.

[Kristen Schwab]

The Fed seems to be uncertain about what they'll do. Financial markets seem uncertain, too. And there's the uncertainty a new administration brings. New policies could shift the job market or inflation itself, which might give the Fed reason to pause.

[Sponsor Announcer]

They're going to wait and see what.

[Sean Snaith]

The administration actually proposes and what gets through Congress and so on.

[Kristen Schwab]

The other part of the Fed's dual mandate, jobs, has been a little confusing, too. Raghuram Rajan at the University of Chicago says there are fewer openings and fewer people quitting.

[Betsy Ladize]

And that's something that has the Fed sort of convinced that we're moving in.

[Kristen Schwab]

The right direction because it means wages are less likely to outpace inflation. On the other hand, unemployment is low, consumer spending is strong, all good for the economy, but it extends the period.

[Betsy Ladize]

Over which the Fed has to keep rates higher. In other words, while the Fed is cutting right now, it might have to cut at a slower pace to make.

[Kristen Schwab]

Sure inflation doesn't stall but keeps coming down. I'm Kristin Schwab for Marketplace.

[Amy Scott]

Whatever we learn about inflation this week, one thing we do know is that beef prices have been going up. The price of cattle futures rose almost 10% between the end of August and the end of October, as Marketplace's Justin Ho reports. We can thank the usual suspects, supply and demand.

[Naomi Bloom]

Over the last few months, it's been particularly dry in cattle country.

[Amy Scott]

The western Dakotas, a large portion of Kansas and Nebraska, and most of Oklahoma.

[Naomi Bloom]

That's Naomi Bloom, senior market advisor at Total Farm Marketing. She says drought conditions affect cattle production because cows like to spend their waking hours grazing and droughts mean less hay.

[Amy Scott]

So when you are in a situation.

[Michelle Ma]

Like that as a rancher, you're going.

[Amy Scott]

To limit the number of herd that.

[Michelle Ma]

You have because there's only so much feed available.

[Naomi Bloom]

Smaller herd sizes aren't the only factor pushing up beef prices. Glenn Tonser, a professor at Kansas State University, says production costs have been rising, too.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Whether it is feed costs, labor costs, land rent, almost all of those entries are going to be higher than they were certainly before the pandemic.

[Naomi Bloom]

And while beef supplies have been dwindling, demand has stayed strong. Tonzer surveys consumers about their meat consumption, and he says while people are trading down, buying more hamburger meat instead of steak, for instance, they're still buying beef.

[Sponsor Announcer]

We've actually seen a small growth since February 2020 in that, and that's very consistent with the public wanting to keep meat in their diet and making some adjustments to pull that off.

[Naomi Bloom]

There are a couple of factors that could keep a lid on prices. Naomi Bloom at Total Farm Marketing says cattle imports are up from countries including Australia, Brazil, and Urugu, and the weather could always improve.

[Michelle Ma]

If we have good rains over the.

[Amy Scott]

Winter, if we have good snowfall over the winter and pasture conditions improve, then we could start to see the US Rancher want to and have confidence to increase their herd size.

[Naomi Bloom]

But even if that happens, Bloom says it would take years for any new meat to hit the market. I'm Justin Ho for Marketplace.

[Amy Scott]

Nearly five years after the start of the COVID 19 pandemic, many are still struggling with the lasting effects of long Covid. And while the federal government has poured more than $1.5 billion into a long Covid research program at the National Institutes of Health called Recover Patients, advocates and researchers have been frustrated with the progress. Marketplace's Samantha Fields has that story.

[Betsy Ladize]

When Charlie McCone got Covid in March of 2020, he was 30, healthy and fit. His doctors told him he'd get better in a couple of weeks, but he didn't.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I found a Facebook group with thousands of other people asking, what's going on? And I was like, oh my God, this is happening to so many other people.

[Betsy Ladize]

It was already becoming clear then that Covid could cause serious, lasting issues for people, including debilitating fatigue and brain fog. And because there was so much attention on Covid at the time, there was.

[Sponsor Announcer]

A lot of hope about the response to long Covid. I think the first two years, especially.

[Betsy Ladize]

Once Congress allocated over a billion dollars to the National Institutes of Health for long Covid research in late 2020, there.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Was, I think, this feeling that we're going to have answers here in a few years.

[Betsy Ladize]

Today, McCone is still sick. He's not working anymore and can't walk much more than a block. Roughly 20 million people in the US are now estimated to have long Covid. And that billion dollars NIH got for Long Covid research has yielded few answers and zero approved treatment. So far.

[Michelle Ma]

There's been a lot of disappointment in terms of the program moving slowly and also focusing a lot on the kind of observational side of things.

[Betsy Ladize]

Betsy Ladize is co founder of the Sick Times, a nonprofit news site focused on long Covid. She says most of the research money so far has gone into trying to learn more about what long Covid is.

[Michelle Ma]

Rather than what many people in the patient community and also the research community really want, which is focus on treatments, clinical trials.

[Betsy Ladize]

There's good reason for that, according to Dr. Serena Spudich. She's a neurologist and researcher at Yale who's working with the Recover program.

[Michelle Ma]

There has to be a very, very strong urgency for finding treatments. And at the same time, we will only find treatments if we understand the.

[Betsy Ladize]

Condition properly and understand what's causing the many different kinds of symptoms people are having.

[Michelle Ma]

Long Covid is not one condition, and it's very, very possible, I would even say likely, that different forms of long Covid be due to different types of biologic mechanisms that need different treatments.

[Betsy Ladize]

Outside researchers agree that these kinds of studies are critical, but some say the NIH didn't need to spend nearly a billion dollars on them. Dr. Ziad Ali at the VA St Louis Healthcare System says his team and others did similar research earlier in the pandemic for peanuts for literally a few.

[Michelle Ma]

Hundred thousand dollars that generated evidence much.

[Sponsor Announcer]

More robustly faster years ahead of recover.

[Michelle Ma]

For a small, small, small of the.

[Betsy Ladize]

Funds, and at this point, more than four years in NIH should be laser.

[Michelle Ma]

Focused, laser focused on finding treatment for Long Covid.

[Betsy Ladize]

That will be a bigger focus going forward. NIH got another $515 million this year for recover and says much of it will be going toward clinical trials. David Petrino, who does Long Covid research at Mount Sinai in New York, says how the trials are designed will be critical.

[Sponsor Announcer]

What we need to be doing is rapidly testing as many drug targets as possible rather than taking big swings.

[Betsy Ladize]

Meaning instead of putting all the funding into just a few big expensive trials of a couple of drugs, he says, RECOVER could do a bunch of smaller.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Trials for a couple million dollars apiece. They could be testing a hundred drugs and they could be moving into more sophisticated clinical trial strategies. That is where I think we should be applying the money.

[Betsy Ladize]

Many Long COVID patients are cautiously optimistic about this next phase of research, including Charlie McCone. He now volunteers with a group called the Patient Led Research Collaborative.

[Sponsor Announcer]

The NIH can do this right, they have to do this right and they need to do it fast, which we know is possible.

[Betsy Ladize]

But he also says no matter what comes of this current slate of funding, more is going to be needed.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Just because this first billion dollars didn't produce much does not mean the next billion and the next billion won't.

[Betsy Ladize]

Some legislators are already pushing for additional funding. They've introduced the Long Covid Research Moonshot act in both the House and Senate. It would provide a billion dollars a year for 10 years for long Covid research. I'm Samantha Fields for Marketplace.

[Amy Scott]

Coming up.

[Naomi Bloom]

It's not a sexy part of keeping access for the public, but it is so, so important.

[Amy Scott]

That's one way to put it. But first, let's do the numbers. The Dow Jones industrial average gained 304.7 10% of finish at a record 44,293. The Nasdaq rose 11 points, less than 1 10%. And at 19,298, the S&P 500 rose 5 points, a 10th percent to close at 60.01. Pharmaceutical company AbbVie dropped more than 12% after its experimental schizophrenia drug reported disappointing results in phase two trials. Competitor Bristol Myers Squibb, whose own schizophrenia drug was a approved by the FDA in September, grew 10 and a half percent. Health insurer Cigna shot up 7 and 3, 10%. The company said it will not be pursuing a merger with rival Humana. Humana was down 2%. On the news, bond prices rose. The Yield on the 10 year T note fell to 4.30%. You're listening. To Marketplace.

[Sean Snaith]

You turn to Marketplace for up to the minute news, for stories that show you the connections between global events and your personal economy. And you're not alone. Marketplace is the most widely consumed business and economic news program in the country. We're proud to make fact based journalism freely accessible and Marketplace investors make it all possible. Your year end donation today will make a real difference in our nonprofit newsroom and in the lives of millions of Marketplace listeners every single day. So please contribute what you can [e-mail].

[Amy Scott]

Donate this is Marketplace. I'm Amy Scott. COP 29 is underway in Azerbaijan. Leaders from nearly 200 countries are gathering for the latest international climate talks, known as the Conference of the Parties. This year's COP is focused on finance, specifically how much money wealthier countries will contribute to help developing nations cope with the climate crisis. Donald Trump' re election raises serious doubts about how much the US Government will participate in global climate action in the coming years. And here at home, the transition to a cleaner economy is facing another challenge. Declining interest from investors in climate tech startups. Reporter Michelle Ma wrote about it at Bloomberg. Welcome to the program.

[Michelle Ma]

Thanks for having me.

[Amy Scott]

What are we talking about when we talk about climate tech? Can you give some examples of the startups in this space?

[Michelle Ma]

Well, climate tech is a really broad term, and I think traditionally what you think of when you think of climate tech are solar, wind, renewables, things like that. But it's really expanded broadly to carbon capture technology, to green hydrogen, to nuclear fusion, and all sorts of new battery chemistries that are being developed every day. So it's really, really a broad sector.

[Amy Scott]

So a lot of opportunities to invest. But as you reported, funding for climate tech has been falling on track to drop about 50% this year. What are some of the factors behind that?

[Michelle Ma]

Number one, you know, it's a very capital intensive sector. These are startups that are often not dealing with, you know, software, they're dealing with hardware with massive facilities and factories that they have to stand up. And then number two is they're considered by some investors to be riskier than other technologies because they're still kind of in that early stage of development. You know, just moving from the pilot, from the bench, from the lab to commercial scale, and in many cases still not yet generating any revenue. So there's a lot about all of these factors coming together that have made this year kind of a tough one for the sector.

[Amy Scott]

Now talk about the role that AI has played in this shift because as you quoted one investor saying, AI has sucked all the oxygen out of the room, what's going on there?

[Michelle Ma]

Compounding on top of all of these things I just mentioned, what we've been seeing is the climate tech focused funds. You know, they're still focused on climate because that's what they care about. But there's a lot of what we call generalist investors. Those investors have been told, you know, actually we want you to turn all of your attention to AI this quarter. That's what we care about. That's the buzzy new thing. And you know, climate tech briefly had a lot of attention from tourist or generalist investors and today that attention has shifted to artificial intelligence.

[Amy Scott]

And of course, AI is extremely energy intensive. There's a little bit of an irony here. Is that actually going to do more damage as the money shifts from solutions to exacerbating factor in the climate crisis?

[Michelle Ma]

That's an interesting question that we've been asking so many people in the space and I feel like the answer is still not clear. Proponents of AI will say, actually it's a good thing for the climate sector because AI is finally showing people that there is demand for clean power. You know, all of these hyperscalers, all of these data centers require clean, renewable energy and they want to meet their climate goals. But then on the other hand, you know, you're seeing a lot of the opposite reaction as well, where AI is keeping, you know, natural gas online for longer than it would be otherwise, extending the life of fossil fuel plants that, you know, we might have shut down otherwise. And it's also in this case, you know, some investors are seeing capital that could have been funneled towards climate startups going towards buzzier AI startups instead. So there's that bit of it too where there's competing capital needs and AI is kind of sucking all the oxygen out of the room.

[Amy Scott]

Well, one thing I wanted to ask you about is you write that commercializing new technologies is expensive and risky unless favorable policy support can help bring down costs and drive demand. So with the Trump administration having another go, I imagine that policy support could evaporate. In terms of federal dollars that are incentivizing investment in clean tech. What do you think that could affect that could have on investing?

[Michelle Ma]

Yeah, that's a really tough one to say right now. I think it's too early to tell. A lot of people who are hopeful in the space will tell you that a lot of the clean energy projects that are being developed that depend on federal dollars, those are being built in red states and those are creating jobs in red states. And a lot of the policies that were passed, you know, like the Inflation Reduction act, were supported by Republicans. At the same time, you know, the best science indicates that we have a very narrow window of opportunity to turn things around right now when it comes to climate. So now is probably the most critical time for the climate tech sector to scale. If those federal dollars disappear, if those tax credits disappear, that could make a huge difference in how much progress we're able to make or not make.

[Amy Scott]

All right. Michelle Ma covers climate tech for Bloomberg. Thank you so much.

[Stephanie Hughes]

Thank you.

[Michelle Ma]

Thanks for having.

[Amy Scott]

While control of the U.S. house of Representatives is up in the air as vote counting continues, the current Congress still has some work to do, like pass a bill to fund federal agencies. One agency bracing for cuts is the U.S. forest Service. That's expected to get about half a billion dollars less than it requested. And on top of that, supplemental funding from the Inflation Reduction act and the bipartisan Infrastructure act is about to expire. Wyoming Public Radio's Caitlin Tan looks at how a partnership at Bridger Teton National Forest could be a model.

[Caitlin Tan]

Taking care of a national forest might seem like a job that involves beautiful mountain vistas and days spent on scenic trails. But sometimes the reality is more like this.

[Michelle Ma]

It's gonna be loud, okay, so you're aware, okay.

[Caitlin Tan]

Rhett Jones is in the smelly business of pumping public toilets. He and another worker are here to empty the campground outhouses in the Bridger Teton Forest. He peers into the bottom of a pit toilet.

[Amy Scott]

A lot of trash bags get thrown in here, loaded with stuff, bottles, cans, chew cans.

[Caitlin Tan]

Wearing thick rubber gloves, Jones manually fishes out the trash and then siphons about 2,000 gallons of waste into his truck's tank. This is an annual process for 62 toilets in the western Wyoming forest, says Scott Kosiba, who heads up the nonprofit Friends of the Bridgerton Teton.

[Naomi Bloom]

It's not a sexy part of keeping access for the public, but it is so, so important.

[Caitlin Tan]

A little over a year ago, the toilets at campgrounds and trailheads on the Bridgerton Teton were almost locked. It would have meant thousands of campers and hikers possibly using the woods as their bathroom, easily a public health hazard.

[Naomi Bloom]

This was absolutely a crisis situation.

[Caitlin Tan]

The federal government is limited by who and how it can negotiate contracts for work like pumping toilets. It was quoted about $120,000 for the job, which Kosiba says would have bankrupted the Bridger Teton's forest recreation budget.

[Naomi Bloom]

We're talking no trails cleared. We're talking no, you know, campground hosts.

[Caitlin Tan]

The agency's hands were tied. But they were able to essentially hire the nonprofit, which could then contract out with other companies. They agreed to do the job at about a third of that $120,000. The toilet stayed open and clean, thanks to workers like Rhett Jones. He shows off a remarkably clean campground outhouse.

[Michelle Ma]

These old fly nests that were in the corners, we've knocked them out, spray.

[Naomi Bloom]

Them down, get your window seals, everything.

[Michelle Ma]

Wow.

[Caitlin Tan]

I've never smelled such a nice porta potty.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Wow.

[Caitlin Tan]

But it's not just toilets that need a little help. Here in the forest, there's a never ending list for keeping up 3.4 million acres of public land. It exceeds our capacity pretty quickly. Mary Sernacek is with the Bridger Teton. She says friends of the Bridger Teton has also helped with fundraising, which a federal agency can't do. That money can go toward fixing trails, campsites, roads. The friends group also sends out outreach volunteers who warn visitors about bears and put out unattended campfires. We're no longer just the Bridger Teton National Forest trying to go at it alone. Cernichek is tight lipped about looming budget cuts. But Kosiba, in his role running the nonprofit, is not.

[Naomi Bloom]

The Forest Service is about to get its knees cut out from under it.

[Caitlin Tan]

Financially, which makes his group and volunteers even more important to the Bridger Teton's future.

[Naomi Bloom]

It is astounding that a nonprofit has to exist to help fund and help support a federal land management agency.

[Caitlin Tan]

Meanwhile, D.C. lawmakers have through December 20 to hash out a budget, leaving the forest's future in limbo in the Bridger Teton Forest in Wyoming. I'm Caitlin Tan for Marketplace.

[Amy Scott]

All right, this final note on the way out today, one more bit of context as world leaders gather at COP 29 for climate finance talks. The International Chamber of Commerce is out with a new report estimating that climate related extreme weather events over the past decade caused at least $2 trillion in global economic losses. The country most affected dollar wise, the United States of America. Our daily production team includes Andy Corbin, Eliza Hasan, Maria H.A. hollenhorse, Sarah Leeson, Sean McHenry and Sophia Terenzio. I'm Amy Scott. Hope to see you back here tomorrow. This is apn.

[Sean Snaith]

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