Why American solar manufacturers are divided on tariffs

Summary

Marketplace Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Why American Solar Manufacturers Are Divided on Tariffs
Host: Kai Ryssdal
Release Date: October 29, 2024

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1. Housing Market Slows Down

Timestamp: [00:01] – [02:19]

Kai Ryssdal opens the episode by addressing the recent trends in the U.S. housing market. Despite July witnessing all-time highs in housing prices, the latest Case-Shiller Home Price Index reports a slight dip from July to August. Year-over-year, home prices remain up by 4.2%, but the pace of growth is easing.

Key Points:

• Increased Housing Stock: Carola Binder notes, “For the first time, we've really seen them sustainably growing” ([01:29]).
• Rising Mortgage Rates: Kaylee Wells explains that higher mortgage rates are contributing to the slowdown in sale prices ([01:36]).
• Political Promises: Both presidential candidates are pledging support for home buyers, potentially influencing future market dynamics ([01:45]).

Insights: Timothy Savage from NYU highlights that cooling housing prices could indicate the Federal Reserve's efforts to curb inflation are effective ([01:57]).

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2. Federal Reserve and Economic Indicators

Timestamp: [02:55] – [06:17]

Ryssdal delves into the upcoming week filled with significant economic data releases and political events that could impact Federal Reserve policies.

Key Points:

• Economic Data Schedule:

  • Gross Domestic Product (GDP): Releases tomorrow.
  • Personal Consumption Expenditures Index (PCE): Coming Thursday.
  • October Jobs Report: Expected Friday.

• Expert Predictions:

  • Carola Binder: Anticipates the Fed will cut interest rates by 25 basis points next week, aligning with the Fed’s signals ([04:17]).
  • Sabri Benishore: Emphasizes the importance of the upcoming employment report as a wildcard for Fed decisions ([05:09]).

Notable Quote: “...the Fed's goal they're trying to find the Goldilocks level of interest rates, which requires a bit of patience,” explains Deborah Kahn ([05:00]).

Insights: The consensus among economists is that the Fed aims for a balanced interest rate to sustain economic growth without triggering inflation, signaling potential rate adjustments in upcoming meetings.

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3. Interview with Deborah Kahn on "The Diplomat"

Timestamp: [06:17] – [14:30]

In a compelling segment, Ryssdal interviews Deborah Kahn, the showrunner and creator of the Netflix series "The Diplomat." The conversation explores Kahn’s journey in television and the nuances of creating a workplace drama centered around diplomacy.

Key Points:

• Creative Process: Kahn shares how real-life diplomatic stories inspired the series, emphasizing the often unnoticed roles of diplomats ([08:55]).
• Casting Chemistry: She highlights the serendipitous chemistry between actors, particularly between Keri Russell and Rufus Sewell, attributing it to a collaborative and understanding work environment ([09:39], [11:16]).

Notable Quote: “I think the work that you get out of a group is a lot better if everybody realizes that everybody there is a human being with creativity to contribute and a family at home...” – Deborah Kahn ([11:16]).

Insights: Kahn underscores the importance of a supportive and creative workplace, drawing parallels between her show's production environment and the diplomatic missions it portrays.

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4. Personal Story: Transition from Opera Singer to Administration

Timestamp: [14:37] – [25:43]

The episode features an inspiring story of Carrie Annotano, a former opera singer who transitioned into an administrative role at Opera Delaware after facing personal and professional challenges.

Key Points:

• Early Passion: Carrie discovered her love for opera at 14, leading to a successful career performing at prestigious venues like the Metropolitan Opera ([14:37]).
• Struggles and Recovery: Facing severe performance anxiety, Carrie considered leaving opera but found support within her organization, prompting her shift to administration ([19:03]).
• New Purpose: Now, Carrie focuses on building sustainable careers for artists, finding fulfillment beyond the stage ([24:30]).

Notable Quote: “When I sing, it comes from a place of incredible joy. Like when I was a kid that I sing with joy,” Carrie shares, reflecting on her renewed passion ([25:00]).

Insights: Carrie’s journey highlights the importance of community support and personal resilience in overcoming career obstacles, emphasizing the value of adaptability and purpose-driven work.

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5. Divisions in American Solar Manufacturing Due to Tariffs

Timestamp: [17:56] – [22:13]

The core focus of the episode examines the challenges faced by American solar manufacturers amid shifting trade policies and tariffs aimed at combating Chinese competition.

Key Points:

• Manufacturing Expansion: Q Cells, a South Korean-based company, expanded its Dalton, Georgia plant from 300 to 2,000 employees, producing 60,000 panels a day ([18:22]).
• Impact of Tariffs:
  • 2018 Trump Tariffs: Imposed up to 30% on Chinese solar equipment, prompting companies like Q Cells to manufacture domestically ([18:37]).
  • Inflation Reduction Act (IRA): President Biden’s IRA provided tax credits and incentives, leading to a quintuple increase in U.S. solar panel production capacity over two years ([18:56]).

Challenges:

• Supply Chain Gaps: While assembling finished panels has increased, the U.S. struggles with manufacturing key components like silicon wafers, leading to dependency on foreign parts ([19:19]).
• Global Competition: Chinese companies continue to circumvent tariffs by exporting through other countries like Vietnam and Thailand, necessitating higher tariffs on these nations ([20:30]).

Notable Quotes:

• Erica Villegas: “On the supply chain, would not have been possible without the IRA for sure” ([19:19]).
• Scott Wieter: “At the end of the day, it's really the end customer that's getting penalized the most” ([21:03]).

Insights: The U.S. solar industry is at a crossroads, with significant investments in domestic manufacturing being undermined by persistent Chinese competition and evolving global trade dynamics. The industry remains divided on the effectiveness of tariffs, balancing between protecting domestic jobs and keeping solar panels affordable for consumers.

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Conclusion

This episode of Marketplace provides a comprehensive overview of current economic trends, federal policies, and personal stories that shape the American landscape. From the cooling housing market and Federal Reserve strategies to the creative processes behind acclaimed TV shows and personal career transformations, culminating in the intricate challenges faced by American solar manufacturers amid global competition and tariff policies, the episode offers rich insights into the multifaceted nature of today’s economy and society.

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Notable Quotes:

• “We don't have the amount of listings that we would love to have to be able to meet the demand.” – Erica Villegas ([02:30])
• “It's a whack, a mole problem where we address China, we win a case, we achieve tariffs and the Chinese-owned companies move to other countries like Vietnam, like Cambodia and Thailand.” – Deborah Kahn ([20:17])
• “...the work that you get out of a group is a lot better if everybody realizes that everybody there is a human being with creativity to contribute and a family at home...” – Deborah Kahn ([11:16])

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and notable quotes to provide a comprehensive understanding for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Kyle Rysdal]

On the program today. We've got data, of course, some renewable energy and opera from American Public Media. This is Marketplace in Los Angeles. I'm Kyle Rysdal. Tuesday, October 29th. Today, good as always to have you along, everybody. All right. I say home prices, you say what? Really high going up, out of control? Yes to all of that. But even the longest journey begins with a single step, right? July, as you might remember, saw all time highs in housing prices in this economy. But new numbers out this morning from the s and P CoreLogic case Shiller home Price Index, more colloquially and easily known as Case Shiller, showed a slight dip July to August. Now, home prices are still up year over year, 4.2%. But even that, here's the thing, the rate of price growth is slowing. Marketplace's Kelly Wells is on the housing beat for us today.

[Kaylee Wells]

Slowing price increases might seem novel, but it's not surprising. Mark Epley, director of the real estate program at University of Wisconsin, Madison, says there are three main reasons price hikes are cooling. 1, 1 is the housing stock.

[Carola Binder]

For the first time, we've really seen them sustainably growing, which means there'll be.

[Kyle Rysdal]

A little push down in sale prices.

[Kaylee Wells]

Second, mortgage rates have gone up, which tends to bring sale prices down. And third, he says both presidential candidates are promising help for home buyers.

[Kyle Rysdal]

If you're a home buyer, why not wait for that?

[Kaylee Wells]

The people who already own homes might not be excited about today's news on home prices, but the slowing of house.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Price appreciation is actually a good thing.

[Kaylee Wells]

Timothy Savage teaches finance in NYU's real estate program. He says the price of housing is a major slice of the inflation pie. The cooling of housing prices means the Fed's attempt to curb inflation just might be working.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Plus, this may help to address the issue of individuals getting into housing in the first place.

[Kaylee Wells]

That would be welcome news in Chicago, which saw the second highest increase of housing prices of major US Cities. Erica Villegas is president of the Chicago association of Realtors.

[Erica Villegas]

We don't have enough homes for sale and we have a good amount of buyers looking to buy in Chicago. You know, we don't have the amount of listings that we would love to have to be able to meet the demand.

[Kaylee Wells]

Villegas says she's hopeful that lowering interest rates will help more buyers in her market find homes soon. Already, she said she's seen more sales in the past couple of months. I'm Kaylee Wells for Marketplace Wall Street.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Today, tech stocks were the name. Oh, the game. That and oil and bitcoin and the bond market it's all going on. We'll have the details when we do the number. The economic data gods and the political calendar gods must have gotten together to arrange this next week or so. In our collective experience, voting ends next Tuesday. Of course, the Fed meets on interest rates next Wednesday and Thursday, but between here and there, it's kind of a datapalooza. Kaylee Wells just told us about Case Shiller. We also got September job openings today fell to a three and a half year low consumer confidence, which this month is the highest it's been since the beginning of the year. And there is more. Tomorrow we get gross domestic product. The next read on inflation comes Thursday via the Personal Consumption Expenditures Index, and then Friday, the October jobs report. Marketplace's Kristen Schwab sets the table for what the Fed is going to be thinking about with all that.

[Carola Binder]

Nothing is ever certain when it comes to the economy, but Carola Binder, an economist at UT Austin, is pretty certain. The Fed will cut interest rates by 25 basis points next week because that is what the Fed signaled they want.

[Erica Villegas]

It to be as predictable as possible.

[Carola Binder]

Predictable because the Fed is meeting right after the election and doesn't want to appear partisan. Predictable because markets have already priced in the cut. Jerome Powell's Fed. Its pattern is to set expectations and follow through, which means this week of economic data, it's not so much going to inform November's Fed meeting.

[Deborah Kahn]

The more important thing is going to.

[Carola Binder]

Be what it signals about that future path. So what it signals about what it.

[Deborah Kahn]

Might do in December and even farther into the future.

[Carola Binder]

For insight on that, Randy Krosner, a former Fed governor, will mostly focus on jobs.

[Sabri Benishore]

The key wildcard I think will be the employment report. We've had a down, we've had an up.

[Kyle Rysdal]

And so where are things going?

[Carola Binder]

A super strong jobs report and the Fed might signal keeping rates steady in December. This far in the game, though, economists have to squint at the subtext to get a read on the economy like the job quits rate and auto loan delinquencies, because Andrew Levin, an economist at Dartmouth, says the Fed's goal they're trying.

[Deborah Kahn]

To find the Goldilocks level of interest.

[Carola Binder]

Rates, which requires a bit of patience.

[Deborah Kahn]

And is not to overreact, you know.

[Erica Villegas]

To just a few data points coming.

[Carola Binder]

In, but wait for a pattern to emerge before it makes its next move or really signal the move it might make months ahead. I'm Kristen Schwab for Marketplace.

[Kyle Rysdal]

One of last year's big streaming hits, the diplomat on Netflix, comes back Thursday for season two, Keri Russell is the newly appointed US Ambassador to the uk. Rufus Sewell, her former ambassador husband. International crises, of course, ensue. Full disclosure, I'm a fan. Anyway, season three is already in production, so we were lucky to get creator and showrunner Deborah Kahn on the phone. It's great to have you on.

[Deborah Kahn]

Hey, thanks. Very exciting to be here.

[Kyle Rysdal]

So you have been in television for a while. West Wing, Homeland, bunch of stuff. But this is your first gig as the boss and I want to know what it's like to be the boss on a high profile show.

[Deborah Kahn]

So a lot of people create their first show when they're a little bit earlier in their career. I waited a long time, partially because I used to be based in la and then I moved to New York. And at that time, the idea of working long distance, if you weren't in la, you couldn't be in the business. So I sort of put my showrunner ambitions aside for about a decade, but watched really carefully what these amazing people that I was working with were doing and knew going into it, all of the pitfalls and how to kind of avoid the mistakes, and then made every single mistake. I was so convinced that I had taught myself how to avoid.

[Kyle Rysdal]

The buck very much stops with you, right? I mean, you get to decide all the decisions.

[Deborah Kahn]

It does, yeah. It's fun. I have to say. It's a good job.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Not terrifying.

[Deborah Kahn]

I enjoy it. It is terrifying. But there's a certain point at which I remember that I actually know more about this show than most people do. I always actually panic going into interviews because I'm like, what if I don't have anything to say about the show? And then I realized I am, in fact, the world's expert on the Diplomat television program. So, you know, eventually it works out.

[Kyle Rysdal]

We were talking about this interview and, you know, how we could make it a marketplace interview. Right. We always try to find a marketplace.

[Deborah Kahn]

And it's, you know, I was wondering that myself.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Well, so here's what we came up with. I'm glad you asked. We've decided that this is actually a workplace drama and we're a show about, among many things, the workplace. So as you sat down to sort of. Well, actually, you probably didn't sit down and come up with this thing out of whole cloth. What was the process by which you came to the nutgraph, the idea for this show?

[Deborah Kahn]

There were a bunch of contributing features. When I left the West Wing, I was like, well, I want to do this, but with the whole world. And then When I was working on Homeland, this ambassador came in to speak to us. We interviewed a lot of experts from a lot of different fields, and she came in to talk about the work that she had done in Pakistan. And two minutes into the conversation, I wrote. I still have it in my notepad. I wrote, she is a series. The stories that she told as I talked to more people in that field were not all that unusual. And I thought, how the is it that nobody knows about what these people do?

[Kyle Rysdal]

Can we talk about Keri Russell for a minute?

[Deborah Kahn]

Oh, yeah, I'll do that.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Did you write her? Did you? Huge. So look, I said this before we start rolling tape. I'm a huge fan of this show. I really enjoy it. Kerry's great, and Rufus Sewell and David Yassi and the whole cast. And I want to get to the chemistry of it in a second. But did you write this with Carrie in mind?

[Deborah Kahn]

No. No.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Interesting.

[Deborah Kahn]

I did not.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Interesting.

[Deborah Kahn]

And then someone suggested Carrie when we were beginning to talk about casting. And I said, she's an amazing actress. I love her work, but she is so powerful and statuesque. She is Elizabeth on the Americans. So in control. I'm writing a sort of an itchy, twitchy neurotic, and I just. I didn't see it. And the executive that I was working with said, just have a conversation. See how it goes. We get on zoom within 30 seconds. I was like, oh, my God, she is Kate. She is just. She's so down to earth and relaxed in her own body and laughing at herself in every second and relatable. And I was like, oh, God, she's Kate.

[Kyle Rysdal]

And then as you got to casting the rest of this team, one of the reasons this show works for me anyway, and I think probably for a lot of people and probably for a lot of shows actually, is that the chemistry between the actors and the characters is so good. How do you do that? Is it just serendipitous casting? Should I be interviewing the casting director instead of you?

[Deborah Kahn]

Probably. Julie Schubert. Unbelievable. Casting director. You know, some of it is just luck. Carrie and Rufus liked each other right off. And the thing that we were casting for was team players. Honestly, I'm very much cognizant of the fact that whatever happens on the show, it should be a pleasant place to work for everybody. And certain. Okay, so if we're talking about. About workplaces, certain ecosystems evolve that are built around a single CEO or creator or lead, where there's a lot of dysfunction that revolves around supporting that one person's process. And I think the work that you get out of a group is a lot better if everybody realizes that everybody there is a human being with creativity to contribute and a family at home and that we're lucky to do this. That energy, I think, creates a certain lightness and playfulness and ease in the interaction of the whole cast.

[Kyle Rysdal]

I was in the Navy. I was in flight school, actually, when Top Gun came out. And of course, the whole vibe when Top Gun comes out is, oh, naval aviation. It's the coolest thing ever. I was in the Forest Service, as you may or may not be aware, many years ago.

[Deborah Kahn]

I didn't know that.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Yeah.

[Deborah Kahn]

What did you do?

[Kyle Rysdal]

I was overseas at the embassies in Ottawa and Beijing. Ottawa, lovely place. Not very foreign. Beijing, obviously quite foreign.

[Deborah Kahn]

And what was your role?

[Kyle Rysdal]

Oh, I was stamping visas and doing mundane stuff. I was a brand new junior. Nothing exciting. Nothing exciting.

[Deborah Kahn]

It's exciting.

[Kyle Rysdal]

In the counselors, the life was cool. What has the reaction been from the State Department for you?

[Deborah Kahn]

They have been really happy. They were, I think, terrified when they first heard about us, as they should be. And we wanted to be as loyal as we could to the substance of the work that they do and the intention behind it. Somebody recently put it as not realistic, but authentic. And I think that's the right way to describe the goal. And, you know, we've had people come up to us and say, wow, my family now, like my parents, understand what I do now, and that's what we want.

[Kyle Rysdal]

The show is called the Diplomat. It's on Netflix. Deborah Kahn is the showrunner, their creator. You should check it out because it's great. Deborah, thank you so much for your time.

[Deborah Kahn]

Great talking to you. Thank you so much.

[Erica Villegas]

Coming up, as a freelancer, you bounce from city to city. You really don't have connection to the community that you're living in now.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Try doing that while you're singing at the Metropolitan Opera. First, though, let's do the numbers. Dow Industrials off 154 today. 4. 10%. 42,233. The NASDAQ gained 145 points. About 8. 10% finished at 18,712. The S&P 500 picked up 9 points. 2 10% ended things at 58, 32. McDonald's dropped 6. 10% today after reporting mixed third quarter earnings. Those results do not include a drop in sales after the chain's recent E. Coli outbreak. Boeing elevated 1.5% today. That after announcing a $21 billion sale of stock to raise capital. And what a credit downgrade Bitcoin, which I mentioned, up 3.5% today. I haven't checked this in a while. $72,000 for one Bitcoin oil was pretty much even on the day. West Texas Intermediate $67.50 a barrel bond prices up yield on the 10 year T note down 4.26%. You're listening to Marketplace. You've turned to Marketplace for up to the minute news, for stories that show you the connections between global events and your personal economy. And you're not alone. Marketplace is the most widely consumed business and economic news program in the country. We're proud to make fact based journalism freely accessible and Marketplace investors make it all possible. Your year end donation today will make a real difference in our nonprofit newsroom and in the lives of millions of Marketplace listeners every single day. So please contribute what you can [e-mail].

[Carrie Annotano]

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[Kyle Rysdal]

This is Marketplace. I'm Kai Rysdal. I'm paraphrasing here, but you know how on Apple products, phones, iPads, earbuds, what have you, somewhere on the thing it used to say something like designed in the United States, assembled in China. Well, that. But for solar panels, the technology that takes sunlight and turns it into electricity was invented here, but the industry that makes solar panels nearly died out in this country thanks to Chinese competition. Solar making here is making a comeback, but it's no sure thing quite yet, as Marketplace's Sabri Benishore reports.

[Sabri Benishore]

At a plant in Dalton, Georgia, ribbons of copper are being soldered onto slices of silicon crystal just twice the thickness of a human hair. Supervisor Robert Howey watches as these crystals are arranged in groups called strings.

[Kyle Rysdal]

This individual string will become part of.

[Deborah Kahn]

A family of 12 strings that will make up the beginning part of our solar panel.

[Sabri Benishore]

This plant, owned by South Korea based Q cells opened in 2019. Lisa Nash is the general manager.

[Kaylee Wells]

We started out we were going to be around 300 people and now we're two buildings and 2,000 people. We make about 60,000 panels a day here in Dalton.

[Sabri Benishore]

This plant exists because of trade policy.

[Deborah Kahn]

It was the tariffs at the time that really drove that decision.

[Sabri Benishore]

Tariffs. Marta stoepker is with QCells, the firm that owns this plant. In 2018, the Trump administration slapped tariffs of up to 30% on solar equipment made in China.

[Erica Villegas]

We were like instead of being tariff.

[Deborah Kahn]

To import our product, let's just make.

[Erica Villegas]

Our product in the United States.

[Sabri Benishore]

A few years later, the US solar industry got another shot in the arm when President Joe Biden signed the Inflation Reduction Act. The IRA showered clean energy manufacturing with tax credits and incentives. The very next year, QCELLS announced it was investing $2.5 billion more into manufacturing in the U.S. these investments, especially downstream.

[Erica Villegas]

On the supply chain, would not have been possible without the IRA for sure.

[Sabri Benishore]

More than a dozen plants have popped up with help from the IRA. US production capacity for solar panels has quintupled in two years, according to S& but that's mostly assembling finished solar panels. Everything leading up to that, the parts, the hair thin wafers of silicon crystal, the little square cells you see when you look at a solar panel, that is where the US supply chain has gaping holes. Michelle Davis is head of solar research at data analytics firm Wood MacKenzie.

[Carola Binder]

There have been a lot of cell manufacturing facilities and wafer manufacturing facilities that have either been canceled entirely or put on hold.

[Sabri Benishore]

The reason, she says, is that global prices for these parts have crashed and the investment math just doesn't make as much sense as it does for finished panels.

[Deborah Kahn]

Those investments are being undermined largely by Chinese owned and Chinese controlled companies who are shipping here at dumped and subsidized prices and crushing the market.

[Sabri Benishore]

Tim Brightbill is lead counsel for the American alliance for Solar Manufacturing Trade Committee, a group of solar manufacturers in the U.S. he says China has got gotten around existing tariffs on it by exporting through other countries.

[Deborah Kahn]

It's a whack, a mole problem where we address China, we win a case, we achieve tariffs and the Chinese owned companies move to other countries like Vietnam, like Cambodia and Thailand.

[Sabri Benishore]

The manufacturers he represents say they need more tariffs targeting these new countries. The Department of Commerce agrees. This month it announced tariffs of up to nearly 300%, and that is just the beginning. But these tariffs, like those before them, are paid by US Importers, and that has highlighted a rift in the American solar industry.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Prices have certainly increased as the tariffs.

[Erica Villegas]

Have been put into place.

[Carola Binder]

So we're paying well over double what other regions outside the United States are paying for panels.

[Sabri Benishore]

Scott Wieter is CEO of Standard Solar, which builds and operates large solar energy farms for businesses and governments.

[Deborah Kahn]

So at the end of the day, it's really the end customer that's getting penalized the most.

[Sabri Benishore]

Wider says there just isn't enough production of solar panel components in the US to meet demand, and there won't be for years. The result is different parts of the US Solar industry have been competing for different trade policies. One group asks for more protections, another for exceptions. And the rebirth of American solar manufacturing sits at a precarious moment. In New York, I'm Sabri Benishore for Marketplace.

[Kyle Rysdal]

We got new Jolts data this morning. Say it with me now. The Job Openings and Labor Turnover survey from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. To quote the bls, things were little changed in September from a month earlier. But even if the big picture is pretty stable, people are still making career moves all the time. You know, whether that's finding a new job or maybe just finding a new direction. That gets us to today's installment of our series, My Economy.

[Erica Villegas]

I'm Carrie Annotano, former opera singer, eternal opera hype girl, and current vice president of Opera Delaware in Wilmington, Delaware. I knew that I liked singing and performing, but opera was on my radar when I was a kid. I was 14 when I met this little 77 year old former opera singer who said, I hear something in you. I think you should learn about opera. And she kind of took me under her wing and it changed my perspective on everything. Opera just wasn't something that I even knew that people like me could do. But to the credit of this woman that I met, she brought me to the Met. She brought me to see a production of Carmen. And it was this buxom, big haired, beautiful brown woman who was singing Carmen. And really it was the exposure. It was seeing things like that, seeing myself and seeing the potential spaces that I could occupy that opened up opera for me. I was singing at the Metropolitan Opera, which was like the epitome of the dream of my life. It was where I wanted to be since I was 14. But that came at the End of a long road of a lot of big and amazing gigs where I was really isolated as a freelancer, you bounce from city to city. You really don't have connection to the community that you're living in. And you're performing at a really, really high level. If you can't sing the high C that you need to sing that night, if you have to call out, you don't get paid. That led to a really dark period where I couldn't sing without crying. It spiraled and got worse and worse progressively. And I was supposed to be starting a new gig singing out in California, and I said to them, I can't sing without crying. I don't know what's going on. Something's broken in me. I thought, I'm gonna have to give up on this thing that has been so important to me and given me my life for the last 15 years. And fortunately for me, the general director of the company at the time asked, if you leave here, do you have health insurance? And I said, no. And he said, well, then we're not going to have you leave in a crisis. This is unheard of in opera. I didn't know that we could take care of each other like this. And when I tell you that changed everything in my life because I realized the power that we all have to change the things that we don't agree with. That is what led me to move into administration for a career. And my goal here is to build a sustainable life for artists. Do I get FOMO from not being on stage performing anymore? I think a lot of people, when they think about moving into administration or moving into producing, they worry that they're gonna still have that itch and they're gonna miss that. For me, I really feel like this is my purpose. I will say, though, now, when I sing, it comes from a place of incredible joy. Like when I was a kid that I sing with joy. I sing to build community. I sing to connect with people. And it's a different. It's a different feeling for sure.

[Kyle Rysdal]

Carrie Annotan, once an opera singer, now the VP of Engagement at Opera Delaware. Whether you found your passion early or you're making a late pivot, tell us about it, would you? Marketplace.org myeconomy this final note on the way out, you remember like a year, year and a half ago when then Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz rolled out those new olive oil drinks, Oleato, they were called. Well, two things. Number one, I tried one once. Exactly as gross as you would imagine. And number two, it seems new Starbucks CEO Brian Niccol agrees. The company said today oleatos are soon to be no more. I mean, sure, they couched it in a whole we're simplifying the menu and getting back to coffee basics so we can be a more profitable thing. But honestly, just so gross. Oh man. Our Digital and On Demand team includes Kerry Barber, Jordan Manji, Dylan Mietanen, Janet Wynn, Olga Oxman, Ellen Rolfos, Virginia K. Smith and Tony Wagner. Francesca Levy is the Executive Director of Digital and On Demand and I'm Kyle Ryssdal. We will see you tomorrow everybody. This is apm. You turn to Marketplace for up to the minute news for stories that show you the connections between global events and your personal economy. And you're not alone. Marketplace is the most widely consumed business and economic news program in the country. We're proud to make fact based journalism freely accessible and Marketplace investors make it all possible. Your year end donation today will make a real difference in our nonprofit newsroom and in the lives of millions of Marketplace listeners every single day. So please contribute what you can [e-mail] donate.