Will Hollywood’s behind-the-scenes workers stay?

Summary

Marketplace Podcast Summary: "Will Hollywood’s Behind-the-Scenes Workers Stay?"

Host: Kai Ryssdal
Release Date: March 1, 2025
Description:
Every weekday, host Kai Ryssdal helps listeners navigate the day’s business and economic news on "Marketplace." This episode delves into the intersecting issues of trade policies, government operations, and the precarious situation facing Hollywood’s behind-the-scenes workers amidst economic and environmental challenges.

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1. Trade and Tariffs: A Complex Landscape

Participants: Kai Ryssdal, Ana Swanson (New York Times), Kathryn Rampell (Washington Post)

The episode opens with host Kai Ryssdal discussing the tumultuous state of trade policies under the Trump administration. Ana Swanson highlights the contradictory goals of the administration's tariff strategies, which aim to bring supply chains back to the U.S., leverage against other countries, and generate significant revenue.

Ana Swanson [01:40]: “A lot of those goals just directly undermine and contradict each other... he is going to have to pick and choose.”

Swanson explains that the administration’s tariff actions are unprecedented in scale since the Smoot-Hawley Act of the Great Depression. The rapid implementation and magnitude of these tariffs have left the trade community “bewildered” and concerned about long-term economic implications.

2. Internal Revenue Service (IRS) Cuts: Consequences for the Economy

Participant: Kathryn Rampell

Kathryn Rampell addresses the Trump administration's efforts to reduce the IRS budget, criticizing the approach as detrimental to both revenue collection and taxpayer assistance. She underscores that cutting enforcement and taxpayer assistance undermines the IRS’s ability to function effectively.

Kathryn Rampell [04:33]: “This is completely the wrong way to go about doing it if you are running the government as a business.”

Rampell emphasizes the importance of IRS enforcement in ensuring compliance, noting that increased enforcement yields a high return on investment by generating significant additional revenue and improving taxpayer compliance.

3. Economic Indicators and Consumer Behavior

Participants: Kai Ryssdal, Ana Swanson

Despite some positive indicators like a slight decrease in the Personal Consumption Expenditures (PCE) index, Ana Swanson expresses concern over a noticeable decline in consumer spending, particularly in January. This dip, influenced by factors such as cold weather and wildfires, raises questions about the potential onset of a larger economic downturn.

Ana Swanson [07:22]: “The question is really is this just a fluke or is this something more serious that we'll see develop?”

4. U.S. Reputation and Global Economic Standing

Participant: Kathryn Rampell

Kathryn Rampell discusses the potential long-term impacts of the Trump administration’s actions on the U.S.’s reliability as an ally and trade partner. She suggests that inconsistent trade agreements and unpredictable policies may drive international partners closer to China, thereby affecting global investment and economic growth.

Kathryn Rampell [08:34]: “We are not a reliable place to invest in per se, to have supply chains linked into.”

5. The Plight of Hollywood’s Behind-the-Scenes Workers

Participants: Kai Ryssdal, Matt Levin (Reporter), Martha Gimbal, Danny Finn (Location Scout), Jeremy Whelan

The episode transitions to Hollywood, where a series of challenges—stemming from the pandemic, the writers and actors strike, and recent wildfires—have severely impacted film and television production. These hurdles have led to studios and streaming services reducing local productions in Los Angeles, threatening the livelihoods of thousands of behind-the-scenes workers.

Matt Levin [15:45]: “Most of the federal spending is not spent on public employees, but spent on private sector employees through contracts and grants.”

Wildfires in January have exacerbated the situation by destroying homes and making Los Angeles less affordable, particularly for "below-the-line" workers such as gaffers, location scouts, and makeup artists. The migration of production to more cost-effective locations like Atlanta, driven by generous state tax credits, is highlighted as a significant trend.

Danny Finn [14:39]: “I could tell it wasn't Randy's. I felt like, yeah, you can't do it. Like you really can't replicate LA.”

6. Migration to Atlanta: A Shift in the Film Industry

Participants: Matt Levin, Todd Brown (Lighting Technician)

The shift to Atlanta has offered several advantages, including lower housing costs and a younger, more dynamic workforce. Todd Brown, who relocated from Los Angeles to Atlanta, shares his experience of finding affordable housing and enjoying a less competitive job market.

Todd Brown [16:04]: “I was able to buy a 2,400 square foot house for less than a million dollars, which is basically impossible in LA.”

However, the loss of localized talent and the departure of experienced workers pose long-term risks to the authenticity and quality of productions traditionally associated with Los Angeles.

7. Consumer Spending Shifts and Utility Challenges

Participants: Kai Ryssdal, Elizabeth Trovall (Marketplace Reporter)

Shifting focus back to the broader economy, Kai Ryssdal and Elizabeth Trovall discuss the surge in utility spending—up by 29% in January. This increase affects low and middle-income consumers disproportionately, forcing many to make tough choices, such as reducing heating or cutting essential expenses like medicine and education to afford energy bills.

Elizabeth Trovall [21:16]: “Households have also given up entertainment, medicine, and school supplies to pay their energy bills.”

8. The Evolution of Frozen Foods

Participants: Kai Ryssdal, Paul Oddly (Frozen Food Expert), Meghan McCarron (Atlantic Contributor)

In a lighter segment, the podcast explores the resurgence of frozen foods, driven by innovations like air fryers and endorsements from celebrity chefs. Paul Oddly discusses how cultural perceptions are shifting, with modern frozen foods becoming tastier and more appealing thanks to new cooking technologies.

Paul Oddly [22:44]: “The air fryer has made frozen food... a lot crispier and tastier.”

This trend signifies a broader change in consumer habits and preferences, highlighting how technological advancements can reshape traditional food preparation methods.

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Conclusion

The episode of "Marketplace" provides a comprehensive overview of the current economic challenges facing the United States, from aggressive trade policies and government cutbacks to localized crises in Hollywood. The discussion underscores the interconnectedness of national policies and their far-reaching impacts on various industries and communities. Additionally, it highlights emerging consumer trends and the resilience of industries adapting to new realities.

Notable Quotes:

• Ana Swanson [01:40]: “A lot of those goals just directly undermine and contradict each other... he is going to have to pick and choose.”
• Kathryn Rampell [04:33]: “This is completely the wrong way to go about doing it if you are running the government as a business.”
• Ana Swanson [07:22]: “The question is really is this just a fluke or is this something more serious that we'll see develop?”
• Kathryn Rampell [08:34]: “We are not a reliable place to invest in per se, to have supply chains linked into.”
• Danny Finn [14:39]: “I could tell it wasn't Randy's. I felt like, yeah, you can't do it. Like you really can't replicate LA.”
• Todd Brown [16:04]: “I was able to buy a 2,400 square foot house for less than a million dollars, which is basically impossible in LA.”
• Elizabeth Trovall [21:16]: “Households have also given up entertainment, medicine, and school supplies to pay their energy bills.”
• Paul Oddly [22:44]: “The air fryer has made frozen food... a lot crispier and tastier.”

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Produced by:
The podcast episode features contributions from Marketplace’s team, including reporters Ana Swanson and Kathryn Rampell, and correspondents like Matt Levin and Paul Oddly. The insightful discussions are complemented by on-the-ground reporting and expert analyses, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the pressing economic and social issues of early 2025.

Transcript

[Stull Reeves]

Programming is supported by Stull Reeves, a leading US Corporate and litigation law firm providing sophisticated business clients high quality legal services with offices in seven states including Minnesota and Washington, D.C. stull Reeves is a nationally recognized leader in project finance and natural resources industries. From deals and disputes to compliance and counseling. Clients turn to Stull Reeves for their most complex business challenges. [e-mail].

[Kai Rysdal]

Well, that was a week, huh? From American Public Media, this is Marketplace in Los Angeles. I'm Kyle Rysdal. It is Friday today. This one is 28th February. It is good as always. Good to have you along, everybody. In no particular order, as we get going today, trade and tariffs, a little inflation and maybe some interest rates. And because we can't knot the politics of this economy. Kathryn Rampel is at the Washington Post. Ana Swanson is at the New York Times. Hey, you two.

[Kathryn Rampell]

Hey, Kai. Hey, Kai.

[Kai Rysdal]

Ana Swanson, we begin with you, and I offer my condolences. As the person at the Times who has to cover trade and trade policy in this economy right now, I'm not gonna ask you where things stand. I'm not gonna ask you what's going on. I'm gon to you or want you to talk to me rather about a great piece in the paper today that you and your colleagues had about how tariffs may not actually be able to do everything that Donald Trump wants them to do, everything everywhere, all at once, you know.

[Ana Swanson]

Thank you. Yeah, definitely. So it's been sort of an unending parade of tariff threats, Right. And the president has talked about a few different rationales for these tariffs. So he's talked about them bringing supply chains back to the United States, using them as a source of leverage against other countries, and then also always raising massive amounts of revenue for the United States. And so my colleagues and I just pointed out that a lot of those goals just directly undermine and contradict each other. So, you know, for example, in raising revenue, if you want to collect revenue, you need people to continue buying imports, which means that they're not switching to buying American goods instead and helping American factories. So, you know, it's, it's a problem for the president's agenda. At some point he is going to have to pick and choose. Right now, I think he's able to have all these different kind of interests allied in favor of his tariff threats because he hasn't really had to pick and choose a goal yet.

[Kai Rysdal]

Right. And those tariffs, last we heard, and it will change between now and then, almost certainly. They're slated to start On Tuesday the 4th Anna, let me ask you this, though. When you talk to practitioners in the art of global trade as opposed to academics and practicing economists, when you talk to people who are doing it, are they bewildered? Are they resigned? What's the mood?

[Ana Swanson]

Yeah. No, I think people are a bit bewildered. You know, many people did expect the president to double down on his tariff threats and go bigger than he did the first term. But, you know, I think it's really important to note that the scale of what the president is doing with these tariffs and with these trade measures is really so much bigger than what he did before in a way that is really astonishing, even to the trade community. So if all these tariffs would go into effect, it would be the most tariffs since Smoot Hawley in the Great Depression. You know, even the China tariffs that he's considering on Tuesday, he's considering adding 10% to all imports coming from China on top of another 10% that he did a month ago. That's already roughly equivalent to all the tariffs that he did during the entire US China trade war in his first term, which took over a year to unfold. So it's really notable what is going on here in trade.

[Kai Rysdal]

Yeah. Size and speed speaking. Kathryn Rampel, of things he's doing this time bigger than he did last time. The defenestration of the federal government is, number one, still ongoing and number two, hitting now economically critical areas. I want to talk to you about the Internal Revenue Service. You did a lot of really cool reporting on that in the last 18 months, two years, about some of the modernizations that are desperately needed, which are now not happening. This will play out in the larger economy.

[Kathryn Rampell]

Yes, absolutely. Well, first of all, it'll play out in the federal government. This is a way to save money or reduce budgets.

[Kai Rysdal]

Saving air quotes there, right?

[Kathryn Rampell]

Yes, yes. This is radio, so you can't see my air quote hand gestures, but I'm doing them. I promise. It is completely the wrong way to go about doing it if you are, you know, we like to talk about, or Trump likes to talk about running the government as a business. If you are running a business, you do not shut down your accounts receivable department. Right. The guys who take in the money. And he's essentially doing that. So there's they're apparently shutting down taxpayer Assistance Centers, laying off people who work at these call centers, who help people who are trying to comply with our absurdly complicated tax code. They're laying off enforcement people. There was a big investment in enforcement and nobody likes to get audited, obviously. But Audit rates, particularly of mega corporations and very high income Americans have plummeted or had plummeted in the years prior to the IRA passing. And that is a huge potential roi. If you invest in enforcement, that's where the money is. And there's been a bunch of research looking at for every dollar spent on enforcement, how much comes back. And for high income people, it's something like $6 for every dollar spent. Much more than that. If you consider deterrence effects, that is not only the revenue that's, that's captured after the audit when you know the IRS finds that you've been non compliant in some way, but also the fact that people pay or people are more compliant basically in the year subsequent. And then, and there's a bunch of other stuff that they're doing that is likely to reduce compliance, not just on enforcement. There was reporting today by a colleague of mine at the Post that DHS is demanding that the Internal Revenue Service hand over information about undocumented immigrants who are paying their taxes. And historically there has been a very well guarded divide because we want people, even those who may be working off the books in some respect, we want them to pay their taxes. So they're not going to pay either because why would you do anything to remain on the government's radar? So we're going to lose a lot of money throughout all of this.

[Kai Rysdal]

There are real effects to what's happening. Speaking of real effects, Ana Swanson, can we detour here into what's actually happening in this economy? It is still, for now, strong. PCE came in today, 2.5% which was down just a hair. GDP came in this week. It's growing a little slower, but it's growing. Consumers though, maybe getting a little tired. Some things to watch. Yes.

[Ana Swanson]

Yeah, no, I agree. So inflation numbers looked a little bit better today. But the problem was that the data showed a pullback in consumer spending and that was somewhat unexpected. So January was a very cold month and that always has a big impact because people are hibernating rather than spending. And there are also wildfires in California. So it could be weather effects. But it does raise a lot of questions about whether these are early signs of a bigger downturn. And certainly there's been some more nervousness recently in consumer confidence surveys about the economy and the effect of tariffs. So the question is really is this just a fluke or is this something more serious that we'll see develop?

[Kai Rysdal]

Right, Catherine, last question to you. And it comes with a nod to what happened today in the Oval Office. Between President Zelensky and President Trump. Obviously, the Trump administration has decided to reorient America's place in the world and its reputation in the world. And I guess my question to you as we talk about the politics of this economy, right, is what does that change in reputation mean for the American economy, you think, and the global economy too?

[Kathryn Rampell]

I think the core question here is will America be a reliable ally when we come to an agreement with other countries, whether it's on security related things as in the Oval Office meeting that you are referring to or trade agreements for that matter, will we stick to our word? And I think we've proven time and time again with this administration that that is not a reliable assumption. You know, he Trump negotiated, for example, the current agreement with Canada and Mexico regarding trade, you know, the usmca, the so called new nafta, and he's already ripping that up with tariffs as we've discussed, expected next week. So what does that mean? It means that we are not a reliable place to invest in per se, to have supply chains linked into. I think it's quite likely that we will see kind of a cleavage in the world into countries that do business with China and countries that do business with us as well. That may have already been in the works. But we are driving more potential trading partners into the arms of China. And just this general uncertainty over our commitment to free trade, to anti corruption, I think is likely to drag on investment here, investment globally and potentially global growth.

[Kai Rysdal]

Kathryn Rampel at the Washington Post and Anna Swanson at the New York Times on a remarkable Friday, to be honest with you. Have a nice weekend, you two.

[Kathryn Rampell]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Kai Rysdal]

Wall street today to end the week and the month. Traders took a breather on this Friday. That PCE number I mentioned real quick easing their minds, I suppose, details, numbers when we get there maybe some time yet before we've got anything like a complete count of exactly how many federal workers the Trump administration has fired or put on leave before firing them. And it is for sure going to be a bit before we know what that's going to do to the economy. We'll get the February jobs report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics Friday next. But because of the way that data is collected, it is unlikely to give us a good picture of what has been going on. Marketplace's Kristen Schwab explains.

[Kristen Schwab]

It's sort of funny that we call the February jobs report the February jobs report because Harry Holzer, a former chief economist at the Department of Labor, says it doesn't really capture all of February.

[Martha Gimbal]

It's a snapshot of the month that.

[Kai Rysdal]

Occurs within a specific week.

[Kristen Schwab]

The Bureau of Labor Statistics surveys workers during the seven days that include the 12th day of the month. It's called the Reference Week. And February's Reference Week happened before a lot of these recent federal cuts, which means they won't show up in the data until the March jobs report. Plus, it'll be a while before people who took buyouts show up at all.

[Kai Rysdal]

Because they won't be looking for new jobs.

[Kristen Schwab]

In most cases, they might wait a while to job hunt. Others may have retired. Martha Gimbal, executive director of the budget lab at Yale, says federal layoffs alone won't change the unemployment rate that much.

[Ana Swanson]

I think people have to keep in.

[Kristen Schwab]

Mind how big the United States economy is. There are more than 2 million federal employees. The total U.S. labor force adds up to 170 million just from a pure economy standpoint.

[Ana Swanson]

The private sector can absorb those people.

[Kristen Schwab]

Of course, from a personal standpoint, job loss is difficult, especially for workers who've spent their careers with the government. Big picture federal cuts will ripple out beyond the federal workforce, says Aaron Sojourner, an economist at the W.E. upjohn Institute for Employment Research.

[Paul Oddly]

Most of the federal spending is not spent on public employees, but spent on private sector employees through contracts and grants.

[Kristen Schwab]

Which means it'll be months before we get a clearer picture of the full impact of these government cuts on the labor force. I'm Kristen Schwab for Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

The wildfires here in Los Angeles last month were just the latest hurdle in a difficult 4, 5 years for the biggest industry in town. The pandemic and then the writers and actors strike put Hollywood in a bit of a skid, with studios and streamers cutting back on local film and television production. And now there are worries that the fires will accelerate that decline. There is a Stay in LA campaign, big name actors calling on those studios and streamers to keep production here. And yes, us going to the multiplex or pulling up Netflix is a business for those companies, but it's a livelihood for the tens of thousands of Angelenos who work behind the scenes, the gaffers and location scouts and makeup artists you're not going to see at the Oscars on Sunday. And for them, the stakes are high. As Marketplace's Matt Levin explains, even if.

[Matt Levin]

You haven't visited la, you probably know Randy's Donuts.

[Martha Gimbal]

Can I please do two plays, two maple bars?

[Matt Levin]

It's here at this noisy intersection in Inglewood, just a few small traffic jams away from LAX. You're likely familiar with their plane donut. The 30 foot tall one on the roof.

[Martha Gimbal]

I think it might have been the sequel Iron Man 2 where Tony Stark Robert Downey Jr is sitting in his Iron man suit in the middle of.

[Matt Levin]

That donut up there. Danny Finn is an LA location scout for movies and TV shows. He says if a script calls for an authentic LA landmark that's a little less on the nose than the Hollywood sign. Randy's Donuts is a popular go to. It did make that cameo in Iron Man 2. It's in the Ice Cube comedy Friday After Next and a bunch of other stuff. Which is why Finn was taken aback when he saw the 2018 cult classic Den of Thieves.

[Martha Gimbal]

In the opening of Den of Thieves, there is a Heat style armored car robbery.

[Kai Rysdal]

Take your foot off the gas, press the unlock button and step out of.

[Martha Gimbal]

The vehicle that I believe is supposed to be right there because it's in front of a walk up style donut shop and there is a little donut on the roof that looks like the size of like a DirecTV satellite dish.

[Matt Levin]

All of Den of Thieves is set in greater la and most of it was shot in Atlanta, Georgia. Finn didn't think it worked. He could tell it wasn't Randy's.

[Martha Gimbal]

I felt validated as a Los Angeles location manager. I felt like, yeah, you can't do it. Like you really can't replicate LA.

[Matt Levin]

Major studios are trying though. Film, TV and commercial shooting days in LA have dropped 39% since 2017. Den of Thieves and the Walking Dead and the Avengers movies were filmed in Atlanta because it's cheaper there, mostly because of a very generous 20% state tax credit. Also cheaper in Georgia, a house. Paul oddly is the head of the nonprofit group Film LA.

[Kai Rysdal]

We did see some migration over the past 10 years of folks from here moving to other production centers.

[Matt Levin]

He fears the roughly 13,000 homes lost in January's wildfires will only make Los Angeles even less affordable for below the line workers, an industry term for people behind the scenes.

[Kai Rysdal]

While most below the line workers are well played middle class, that still isn't enough in many cases.

[Matt Levin]

Here, lighting technician Todd Brown moved to Atlanta from Los Angeles in the summer of 2022. He just wrapped work on the last season of Stranger Things which was filmed in Jackson, Georgia. He was able to buy a 2,400 square foot house for less than a million dollars, which is basically impossible in la. And Atlanta has other professional perks.

[Kai Rysdal]

Quite frankly, there's just a little less competition. And so if you come with Skills you will, it will be seen.

[Matt Levin]

Brown says the workforce in Atlanta is younger. It's the next generation of behind the scenes talent from all over the country trying to break in where it's easier.

[Kai Rysdal]

Like in Los Angeles, you'd have guys that are like gaffers and that's because their father was in it or their mother was. You know what I mean? It's a trade and there's legacy to that.

[Matt Levin]

The temptation to leave LA is stronger now after those January fires. Jeremy Whelan gave it a passing thought.

[Stull Reeves]

So we're coming into my new apartment now. It's a converted garage that we found after the fires.

[Matt Levin]

Whelan and his partner lost the home they owned in Altadena where he lived for eight years. They're both drivers for film crews ferrying equipment to and from sets and studios. In a good year, with steady work, he'll make about 150 grand, although lately it's been less. All the furniture he has right now has been donated from those Hollywood studios, including the 70s looking rug he hopes will be a conversation piece.

[Stull Reeves]

Yeah, it's cool. It's a fun rug that was on some set somewhere.

[Matt Levin]

This could be the Three's company.

[Stull Reeves]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and even if it's not, I'm gonna pretend like it is.

[Matt Levin]

Waylon says the below the line community here has really helped him recover after the fires. And that very brief flirtation with leaving la. Well, that scene has been cut.

[Stull Reeves]

The thing about working in Hollywood is that you have generations of really skilled, talented people that are here. So we really want to fight to stay here.

[Matt Levin]

He hopes the movement to bring more movies and TV back to LA will make that fight easier. I'm Matt Levin for Marketplace.

[Paul Oddly]

Coming up, if I microwave this chicken nugget, it was soggy and really sad, but if I throw it in my air fryer, it's delicious.

[Kai Rysdal]

A second act for frozen food, believe it or not. First though, let's do the numbers. Dow Industrials up 601 today, 1.4%. 43,840. The Nasdaq added 302 points. 1 and 6, 10%. 18,847. The S&P 500, up 92 points, 1.6%, ended things at 59 and 54 for the five days gone by. The Dow up just under 1%. The Nasdaq down 3.5%. The S&P 500 slipped 1% today. Bonds went up. The yield on the 10 year T note, thus down 4.20%. You're listening to Marketplace if you want to be savvy about the economy, the Marketplace newsletter is just what you need. Every Friday you'll get explainers and analysis that makes sense of everything from the moving markets to grocery prices. No jargon, no hype, just smart takes delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail] subscribe this is Marketplace. I'm Kai Rysdal. Ana and I mentioned this a little bit earlier that consumer spending slid in January on everything from cars to clothing makes sense right after the holidays. One category went up a whole bunch last month though 29%, according to the Department of Commerce. Utilities, which have been a pain point for low and middle income consumers in particular as marketplaces Elizabeth Trovall reports.

[Elizabeth Trovall]

January spending is often about essentials, says Morning Consult's Denny Cohen Hense but utilities are subject to the weather and we've.

[Paul Oddly]

Had really cold temperatures on the southern.

[Elizabeth Trovall]

United States and East coast like snow in Houston. And the cold has a double whammy effect on utilities, especially for natural gas heated homes, says David Tinsley with Bank of America Institute.

[Matt Levin]

You've got the price of what they're paying for gas rising, but they're also having to burn more gas in order to counter this unseasonably cold weather.

[Elizabeth Trovall]

His review of electricity, gas and water payments showed a 6% year on year increase in January. But but households are feeling the pinch differently. While richer people pay more for utilities, they often have bigger homes. They don't pay a ton more than people who are poorer.

[Matt Levin]

It's certainly tougher for people at the lower end of the income distribution.

[Elizabeth Trovall]

That leads some families to make drastic decisions. According to a survey by the Texas Energy Poverty Research Institute, Margo Weiss is their executive director.

[Kai Rysdal]

A very high percentage of people leave.

[Elizabeth Trovall]

Their thermostats or their air conditioning at uncomfortable temperatures or even turn it off completely because of the fear of being shut off, she says. Households have also given up entertainment, medicine and school supplies to pay their energy bills. I'm Elizabeth Trovall from Marketplace.

[Kai Rysdal]

Frozen Foods. Maybe throwing a frozen pizza or something in the microwave have long been a go to to get something on the table as fast as possible after a busy day. Though convenient frozen foods have gotten something of a bad rap. They're not all that healthy and not all that tasty either. But the freezer section has gotten something of a rebrand. Meghan McCarron wrote about it for the Atlantic the other day. Megan, welcome to the program.

[Paul Oddly]

Thanks for having me.

[Kai Rysdal]

I am not alone, I'm sure when I say frozen food, ew. But that's changing.

[Paul Oddly]

You say it is changing. And also, you're definitely not alone in that perception. I think I even read about how I shared that perception for a long time.

[Kai Rysdal]

Yeah.

[Paul Oddly]

I don't know how you grew up eating dinner, Kai, but I grew up eating a lot of frozen meals at times. And, you know, I was never mad about it. There's like, that one weirdly good fudgy brownie in kids cuisine that I still think about sometimes. But, yeah, it was, you know, it was a little mid. But, yeah, American perceptions are really changing about frozen food. And some of it is that the pandemic led people to take a second look. Some of it is also that I think the options are getting better. And also there's so much information online now about all these hacks to freeze, you know, food you've cooked yourself that that's become, like, if you're a really nerdy, serious home cook, you're also getting into your freezer.

[Kai Rysdal]

Right, Right. All right, so let's go through a couple of those. First of all, you point out that really the relationship that we have with our freezers began to change because of the pandemic. And, you know, certainly in my house, we were freezing a whole lot of food.

[Paul Oddly]

Yes. I feel one of the pandemic status accessories was the chest freezer.

[Matt Levin]

Right, right.

[Kai Rysdal]

But there's more to it than just that. Right. Well, known name brand cooks are saying, look, frozen food is now not only just acceptable, but actually good. I'm no fan of Gordon Ramsay, but you quote him in this piece.

[Paul Oddly]

Yeah, we didn't actually speak to Gordon, but there.

[Kai Rysdal]

But he has said.

[Paul Oddly]

Yeah, he has said, you know, he was sort of gave a couple quotes to the press over the years saying, you know, frozen food isn't very good. Or, you know, in 2020, he disparaged microwaves as not really imparting any flavor for cooking. And recently he launched his own line of frozen food. This is kind of a familiar move for chefs. Wolfgang Puck has had a frozen line for a really long time. But I think what's really changing is that, you know, you don't just have to microwave frozen food anymore. The air fryer has made frozen food, you know, a lot crispier and tastier. And so sort of air fryer mania is another thing that has made people say, like, wow, like, if I microwave this chicken nugget, it was soggy and really sad, but if I throw in my air fryer, it's delicious.

[Kai Rysdal]

You've been riding on food and culture for a good Long while. Has your relationship with your freezer changed?

[Paul Oddly]

Most definitely. Yeah. I've been covering food for over 10 years, and when I started, I would say I wasn't even freezing stuff I had made fresh. That was just not interesting to me. But around that time, you know, I was like a canning hipster for a hot minute. And then I started, you know, reading these blogs about, you know, putting up your jam. I know. Ah, youth.

[Kai Rysdal]

Canning's hard. That's the beauty of the freezer, right? You pop stuff in the. You wrap it up well, you pop it in the freezer and you're good to go. Canning is just. That's a. Yeah.

[Paul Oddly]

So that was my gateway. I was like, oh, well, I can make this jam and just put it in the freezer. Or I made this stock. I can put it in the freezer. Oh, I made this bread. I can put it in the freezer. And then from there you start saying, like, well, why am I so down on these frozen French fries? Like, sometimes you just want some French fries in the house.

[Kai Rysdal]

Totally. Can I just say, I just discovered you could freeze bread, like, two years ago. It's embarrassing, truly, but once you figure.

[Paul Oddly]

It out, you're like, I'm a genius.

[Kai Rysdal]

That's right. That's right. That's right. Megan McCarron writes on food and a bunch of other stuff. This one was in the Atlantic. Megan, thanks a lot. I appreciate your time.

[Paul Oddly]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Kai Rysdal]

All right, we gotta go. No time for a final. Too much talking up at the top of the program. Our theme music was composed by BJ Lederman. Marketplace's executive producer is Nancy Fargoli. Donna Tam is the executive editor. Neil Scarborough is the vice president and general manager. I'm Kai Rysdal. Have yourselves a great weekend, everybody. We'll be back on Monday. See you.

[Matt Levin]

Foreign.

[Kai Rysdal]

This is APM.

[Janelie Espinal]

Consumer confidence had its sharpest monthly decline since 2021, which means we're all in our fields about money. And while uncertainty is the only constant these days, it's also a great reason to get serious about understanding personal finance. I'm Janelie Espinal, host of Financially Inclined, a podcast from Marketplace that makes learning about money simple. Learn about practical skills like negotiating job offers, dealing with money and friendship and love, entrepreneurship and student loans. Get serious about your money and build a life you've always dreamed of. Listen to Financially Inclined wherever you get your podcasts.