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- [00:01]
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- [01:36]
Joe McCann
You three months ago, hey, a baby hippo is going to be born in Thailand and it's going to be a multibillion dollar market cap meme coin, would you believe me? As you're an investor or a trader in this space, you have to start to develop a pulse for the culture. And crypto certainly has its own zeitgeist and culture about it and being able to tap into that is very, very valuable and profitable.
- [02:06]
Jen Senassi
Imagine a blockchain built for you. No wallets, no keys, no hassle, just innovation. Welcome to Zion, the first walletless layer. One blockchain purpose built for consumer adoption. With Zion, developers can build, launch and scale products that are ready for the masses. No technical barriers for users thanks to groundbreaking chain abstraction. All it takes to join the Crypto Revolution an email say goodbye to complexity and hello to possibility. Ready to take the leap? Explore zion today@zion.burnt.com we all want to believe in something.
- [02:42]
Joe McCann
In Chinese, belief also means trust.
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Jen Senassi
We want to trust our systems and.
- [02:47]
Joe McCann
Each other so we can build a future beyond what we know. Join us at Consensus Hong Kong, where belief becomes real.
- [02:55]
Jen Senassi
Hello and welcome to Markets Daily, hosted by me, Jen Senassi. On this show we navigate the currents shaping the crypto Markets providing insights against the broader financial landscape. So whether you're actively trading or simply fascinated by the volatility that is the crypto markets, this show is your compass to understanding what's happened, where we are, and where we're going. Joining today's show is Asymmetric founder, CEO and CIO Joe McCann. Joe, welcome.
- [03:20]
Joe McCann
Hey, thanks for having me.
- [03:21]
Jen Senassi
Love the New York City background.
- [03:23]
Joe McCann
Thank you.
- [03:24]
Jen Senassi
All right, let's take a look at the markets. I know I said I love your background. Not a lot of love going on in the crypto markets this morning. What are you watching and how are you making sense of the selling pressure we're seeing?
- [03:35]
Joe McCann
Yeah, you know, yesterday into basically, I think since the New York open for US equities, you basically had just wholesale selling, and it was a sell program that effectively ended right at 4pm Eastern Time New York time yesterday on. On Monday. But then something very interesting happened, because I was waiting for a flight and I was trading the markets and watching what was happening, and all of a sudden, market makers just disappeared and stopped quoting on various exchanges. And so there's a bunch of charts. I've shared some in my Telegram chat. You can find them publicly available where the order book liquidity just completely vanished. And on the one hand, you could see this as maybe a market maker or, you know, some large holder of. Of an inv. Of tokens got taken out, meaning they just were forced sellers. You could also see this as market abuse algorithms. These things have been happening in US Equity markets and futures markets for quite some time, where algorithms can. Algorithmic traders and. And market makers can effectively stop people out and. And cause liquidations. Now, that's a conspiracy theory. There is no proof for this sort of thing, but it was highly ironic that Bitcoin at 95,500, which was a very key level for us at Asymmetric, once it got breached the books, the order books just went paper thin. And I think that's why you saw some of the massive amounts of liquidations, because there was simply no inventory on these order books. So today what we've been watching is just kind of like, you know, the Asian market, the European markets have kind of traded a little bit sl. Sideways to slightly higher. The. The New York Stock Exchange just opened, or the stock market just opened, you know, 10 minutes ago. We're already seeing sell pressure again. What we want to see is the liquidity actually come back, because that's what's more important. When order books get really thin, markets get extremely volatile, and that's what you saw yesterday.
- [05:31]
Jen Senassi
So where do we go from here? It's December 10th today. We're heading towards the end of the year. What do you expect to see and market performance as we head to 2025?
- [05:42]
Joe McCann
I mean, our perspective really hasn't changed, you know, so since the Trump election, the red sweep, winning the popular vote, as well as a number of the appointments that he's been making, not just in crypto, but certainly across the board, suggest a sea change style event to the way that the Trump administration is going to be governing. As it relates to crypto specifically, it's very difficult to envisage a scenario where crypto isn't significantly higher, Bitcoin isn't significantly higher simply because of the structural tailwinds being changed by the regulatory environment. So whether that is Paul Atkins coming in as the new SEC chairman who has blatantly been pro crypto, and in fact, you know, more or less asking the SEC, as a former SEC commissioner, asking the SEC for clarity on things like SAB121, this will enable banks to ultimately hold crypto assets on their balance sheets. But also things like Senator Loomis bill that she put forth over the summer for the stablecoin, or excuse me, the, the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve act, putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet of the, of the United States government. This is all un. Unprecedented from a crypto perspective. Right. I don't think a lot of people were pricing these types of things in. And bitcoin, you know, hovering around $100,000 is a huge psychological level. I think as we start to move past some of the macro stuff this week with the CPI and we have the Fed cutting next week, at least that's what we're forecasting. We should have tailwinds as we head into the end of the year.
- [07:18]
Jen Senassi
You mentioned Trump's SEC pick there. We also have Treasury Secretary Trump's pick is Scott Besant and then his AI and crypto star, David Sachs, former PayPal executive. Talk to me about how you're making sense of these picks and how they might impact both crypto markets and the broader markets.
- [07:36]
Joe McCann
Yeah, look, I think on the one hand, with regards to the Treasury Secretary, there was a lot of speculation that it would have been Howard Lutnick from Cantor Fitzgerald. He's a great advocate of crypto and bitcoin runs a very solid business. But Besant has just simply more macro experience understanding global currencies and FX when he traded at places like Soros. And I think that that's actually what the market Wanted, you know, if you saw what was happening to the yield curve, the 30 year bond yield just kept rising until they actually made that announcement. Since then the bond market has calmed down. This is good obviously for the US treasury as well as the broader US population. Given the fact that we have record amounts of debt, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think what you want is someone with a steady hand that can actually manage those types of markets but also be pro digital assets. And I think that that's the piece that is going to play really well with some of the other picks. Take David Sachs for example. Incredibly successful entrepreneur and investor, was very early to Bitcoin in 2013, has invested in loads of crypto related startups and projects like Solana. This is someone who's not just going to pump his own bags. That's not what these guys are doing. They're wealthy enough, they actually want to affect real change. And I think someone like David Sachs, who has the experience of being an innovator, having been inside Silicon Valley, inside boardrooms of startups, wildly successful ones, is someone that you actually want to be making policy as it relates to innovation in the United States and that is artificial intelligence and crypto. So what you don't want is an academic, someone who has no skin in the game, has no real operational experience. David Sachs is just the opposite of that.
- [09:25]
Jen Senassi
We talked a little bit about Bitcoin at the top of the show. I want to talk about alts now. They are really bleeding this morning. Any insight you have into why that might be and do you anticipate alts following the same trajectory as Bitcoin that you outlined at the beginning of the show?
- [09:42]
Joe McCann
Yeah, you know, so last week when Bitcoin, you know, tagged 104,000, we finally broke the $100,000 level. What we saw was an enormous amount of high funding rates on the derivatives contracts as well as some of the on chain lending programs. That means there's a lot of leverage in the system. However, when the kind of liquidation cascade happened, Bitcoin was the one that was affected the most on a percentage basis relative to say, you know, top 20 or top 100 market cap coins. The opposite happened yesterday. So Bitcoin was less affected in terms of the liquidation where alts were just absolutely decimated. I mean some of the wicks on some of these high flying projects like Eigen Layer and Hype Token, these things, even some of the meme coins were just absolutely, you know, decimated. 20, 30% wicks. That is a flushing of the system. And, you know, my, my perspective really is, is that when you have that first bitcoin flush followed by an altcoin flush, you've effectively reset the positioning in the market. So, you know, could we go lower? Of course. It's a market. Markets go up and down. They don't go up only or down only, irrespective of, you know, who names their podcast that. Right. Markets are going to trade sideways and choppy, I think, for, you know, the short to intermediate term, very short term, potentially, given the macro stuff that's headed later this week with CPI and the Fed cut. But ultimately flushing leverage out of the system is a healthy way of rebalancing and repositioning the system so that we could actually leg up higher.
- [11:17]
Jen Senassi
I was looking for a reason as to why alts were so down in the dumps this morning, and one reason I came across, and I'd love to get your opinion on it, is that Google recently announced its new Willow quantum computing chip, which is leading to market concerns about what it could mean for crypto privacy and wallet security. What are your thoughts there? Is this something that, that we should pay closer attention to? Could this be impacting the markets to the levels that we saw this morning?
- [11:45]
Joe McCann
No, it's nonsense. I mean, give crypto Twitter a reason to become experts on a field of computer science that very few people are experts in, and they'll go for it. Right? I mean, look, if you look at what happened with just the stock market yesterday, you had momentum stocks getting absolutely decimated. Mag 7 was, was holding up. Okay? You had a wholesale de risking across risk assets throughout the entire equity session yesterday. Well, guess what? Trades on equities, bitcoin and Ethereum ETFs. Well, if everything is more or less beta to Bitcoin and Ethereum, you're going to see that stuff drag down as well. This notion that Google's new computer is going to somehow affect the price of Bitcoin is just fantasy. I'm sorry. For folks on the Internet that really want that story to be true, it's simply not the case. And furthermore, I can assure you, if it was true, what these folks were espousing for the Google computer, the last thing you should be worried about is Bitcoin or Crypto because it effectively would mean that all encryption is effectively invalid. You have way bigger issues than just the price of your magic Internet money.
- [12:55]
Jen Senassi
That's a valid point. You mentioned meme coins there. And I know that you've said in the past that Wall street is missing the Cultural wave. What do you mean when you say that? Are Meme Coins taken into consideration there?
- [13:08]
Joe McCann
Absolutely. I mean, look, let's think about it this way, right? Let's say, you know, and I'm speaking from an American's perspective, because I'm an American, you know, you go to college, you get a business degree, then you go to get an MBA and you go study in Chicago and they give you the textbooks about how to, you know, evaluate companies and markets and manage finance, et cetera. Where in there is in the curriculum, anything that has to do with culture doesn't exist. There is no study around pop culture and how to monetize that sort of thing. And so this is one of the things that, you know, frankly, it's. It's not necessarily a detriment to them. It's that these folks just literally don't have any training in this space. And so when people tend to not understand something, they make fun of it or they're scared of it, or both. And that's effectively what's happened with Meme Coins, right? There's a reason Dogecoin has completely outperformed myriad assets in the last cycle, and even in the current cycle, right now it's up dramatically. Why, if it doesn't have any fundamental value? That's missing the point. And so what I think you'll eventually see is a lot of these institutions will have to get smart around this. And we've already seen precedence of this. Recall the GameStop scenario a few years ago where Gabe Plotkin basically got stopped out and his fun collapsed because he was shorting GameStop. Every single hedge fund now in Tradfi tracks Reddit and sentiment on Reddit and Twitter. Why? Because they need to know if the Internet is going to get a hold of something like they did with GameStop. The same sort of thing is going to happen with Meme Coins. The difference is they're permissionless and about 30,000 new tokens are being created a day. So they're going to have to get smart quickly. But the pace of these things is going to be difficult for them to keep up with.
- [14:52]
Jen Senassi
You know, I tend to agree with you. We don't talk enough about the intersection of culture and money. Right. There are these two very separate things, and we think there are these two very separate groups of people that. That deal with these two, I guess, aspects of society. But there is, like a real cross section that needs to be studied, that needs to be understood. And so I'm just curious, like, how you see the trajectory of that playing out.
- [15:21]
Joe McCann
Well, I mean, it's, it's tbd, right? I mean, I think part of the challenge with trying to forecast what's going to happen with culture is that it's impossible. Right. I mean, a couple of months ago. Do you think that if I said to you three months ago, hey, a baby hippo is going to be born in Thailand and it's going to be a multibillion dollar market cap meme coin, would you believe me? Maybe you give me like a sub. Yeah, maybe, right? Talk to a normal person that's not in crypto. And if you said that, they would think you're absolutely insane. Insane. Well, guess what happened? A baby hippo was born in Thailand and is a multi billion dollar market cap meme coin. Right. The. I think the difference is, as you're an investor or a trader in this space, you have to start to develop a pulse for the culture. Right. And, and crypto certainly has its own zeitgeist and culture about it. And being able to tap into that is very, very valuable and profitable. There's just no formula for it. It's kind of like I always reference the 1960s Supreme Court justice when they were talking about pornography in a Supreme Court case. He says, I don't know how to describe it. I just know when I see it, it's the same concept with something like culture. So folks are going to have to develop, you know, whether it's. It's hiring, you know, zoomers at the trading desk. I don't know what the actual tactic is, but there's going to be. There's going to have to be some discipline around understanding culture and how the Internet is affecting and changing the value of Internet culture as it continues to be tokenized with meme coins.
- [16:52]
Jen Senassi
All right, we're getting to the end of the show. I like to ask folks this. What's the. The one thing you're watching or your biggest call that you think folks are maybe not seeing right now?
- [17:05]
Joe McCann
Sure, yeah. I mean, actually, I wrote about this in our latest market update. You can go to read Asymmetric Financial. It's freely available. Thousands of people subscribe to it. The most recent piece, I talk about governance tokens, which no one seems to care about. Right. And they haven't for quite some time. And for justifiable reason, if you look at the way the structure of the stock market currently exists, you have issuance, which is through IPOs or secondaries. You have buybacks, which takes, you know, stock off the open market and reduces the supply and then you have dividends where they share in the profit. Well, in crypto we have 1 and 2, right? ICOs, token generation events and then buy back and burn. But historically people have not shared protocol revenue as the form of dividends. I think that is going to fundamentally change now given the regulatory environment is going to be radically different under a Trump administration. And I do believe that you'll see more proposals. Protocols like Athena Asymmetric portfolio company Jito, they're starting to put forward proposals so that token holders and stakers of these tokens can actually participate in the protocol revenue, even at some percentage. Thus, you know, bringing dividends, if you will, to token holders. I think this is a trade or an opportunity that no one is really paying attention to because there's how many governance tokens out there and how many protocols generate revenue. This could be a huge win for 2025 if a lot of these proposals start to pass and protocol revenue starts to be shared as dividends.
- [18:31]
Jen Senassi
Joe, thanks so much for joining the show today. It was a pleasure having you on.
- [18:35]
Joe McCann
My pleasure.
- [18:36]
Jen Senassi
And thank you to our audience. If you enjoy watching Markets Daily, subscribe to our YouTube. Give us a thumbs up if you prefer to listen. We are on the Coindesk podcast network that is available on all podcast platforms. Subscribe to this show. There are a bunch of other awesome shows on there as well. Thanks for watching Markets Daily today and we will see you tomorrow.