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- [00:02]
Adam
Race the rudders.
- [00:03]
Danielle
Race the sails.
- [00:04]
Zach
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- [00:49]
Danielle
Hey everyone. Welcome to Marriage and Martinis. I'm Danielle and Adam is on this episode. He's just not here for this Intro. I was 100% adamant about him coming on this episode because we today are releasing the episode where we speak with Zach, who might better be known as Zach Think. Share from Instagram His Instagram account exploded, I would say, a little more than a year ago. And his TikTok also probably a little bit before that because there are so few professional men in this space of the Mental load. And we've spoken more about this topic on our podcasts probably than just about any other topic because it has been one of the most challenging aspects of Adam and my relationship going back all the way to the beginning when, you know, 25 years ago, we really didn't have any other role models in our lives who were married. We were so young than our parents, and we were just like, okay, we'll just copy what they did. Bad move. Don't do it. So it's been an ongoing battle. If you've listened to our mental load episodes, if you've listened to, you know, any of the countless episodes where we argue about who does more and this and that. I mean, forever. But also, I think I wanted to do it at this time of year, especially with the upcoming holidays. And we do talk about the holidays a bunch in the second half of the episode because exactly around, exactly a year ago, Adam and I almost separated because of a few items, a few aspects, I guess I should say, of our marriage that had really come to a head. And one of them was the mental load. And a lot of it was revolved around the holidays, starting with Thanksgiving. And I exploded. I couldn't take it anymore. I just that the holidays for me brought out a time when, number one, you know, we were seeing all kinds of family and having all these commitments. And I had always felt unprotected by Adam in these situations and situations with people who I maybe wasn't really that comfortable with. I couldn't take it anymore. I felt like I was 100% of the magic maker around the holidays. I couldn't take that anymore. And I just really, I Guess felt like they emphasized the holidays. Every aspect of our relationship that I felt was imbalanced. You can listen to those episodes which were, you know, a little less than a year ago. I'm going to go with December, maybe of 2023. When is the last straw? And then, you know, there are a few after that. When you listen to this episode, and if you've listened recently, you'll notice, look, we are far from perfect, but the work that we have done this past year, I think, has been the most successful of the work we've ever done in our relationship. We just really got it. And, you know, I'm actually excited that this year, the holidays, I feel like, are going to be so different. But it's people like Zach who are out there making sure that couples know about this, you know, this invisible labor that goes on in households that really represent an imbalance and, you know, it's a societal thing that has been sort of accepted for all this time. Eve Rodsky, who, when we talk about fair Play in the episode, is sort of sort of one of the pioneers. She's been on the podcast and also zoom. Zach is a certified Fair play coach. So he has learned also directly, sort of from Evrodsky and her book Fair Play, and her courses, and he's a facilitator. So the mental load, in case anybody doesn't know, is the cognitive and emotional effort involved in managing household tasks, planning, and ensuring the smooth operation of daily life. It includes keeping track of schedules, organizing responsibilities, and anticipating the needs of the family, often leading to significant stress and imbalance in relationships when not equally shared. Zach isn't an invisible labor coach. He is incredible. He's worked with well over 100 couples, coaching them. And again, like I said, this is not something that he's been doing forever, but it is something that his life brought him to through a series of events within his own marriage. So, you know, that actually, to me, is an incredible way to become an invisible labor coach, is by realizing that your own relationship needed work. You did the work, and then you want to help everybody else. I think that's an incredible journey. So Zach is here talking to us all things mental load, second half, a little bit, you know, talking about the holidays, and which brings me into the holiday challenge that we are going to be running from October 27th to November 24th. I am so excited about it. I really think it's gonna be an incredible opportunity for all of us to come together, and there's gonna be a virtual space where we sort of can have like this forum, this closed forum where we can talk about things that maybe we're not comfortable talking about in other facets of life, you know, that we don't want really people in our lives to know about. For instance, familial stuff that we're worried about with the holidays, you know, everything, the mental load, all of that. There's also going to be, we have put together phenomenal resources both for you personally and for you as a couple. If you have a significant other. Everything from, you know, getting organized during that month so that when we actually get to the holidays, your partner and you both know what the tasks are, are, what are you both better at, what makes more sense for you both to do. And it's going to help, I really think, not only keep couples from being frustrated and resenting each other through the busiest time of the year, but actually becoming closer. And I truly believe in this challenge. I think it's going to be wonderful. I really hope you'll join us. If you don't want to join us in person or the dates don't work for you, by all means, you can just do the downloads, which will still give you incredible resources. Straight to your inbox. It's your all in one holiday package for everything you need. Organizing, hosting, gifting, mental load, you know, scheduling all the things you need. We've really, we've spoken to so many different experts and influencers and everything. And our, it's the resource, our resources are phenomenal. If you can join us, it's a very low commitment. You do most of the work on your own and then you can just pop in to the forum whenever you want and ask a question if you need an answer to something and everyone can kind of weigh in, or you just say, hey, heading to my family's Christmas party and kind of dreading it. What are your tips for getting through it? And I will also be there to weigh in. So anyway, all kinds of things going on with it. We are so excited. Please head to marriagemartinis.com and click on the holiday challenge. It's 20% right now and that discount is automatic at checkout. So thank you so much. I can't wait for you to hear from Zach. I think you're really going to love him. Check out his resources as well. They're really wonderful. Go follow him on Instagram or on TikTok. Zach, think, share and enjoy the episode.
- [08:47]
Hey, Zach, thanks for being with us today.
- [08:50]
Zach
Thanks, Danielle. I appreciate it. I'm still embarrassed that you guys reached out to me all the way in January. And then I. Then they said, and I think your system was like, hey, what email can I send it to? I never responded. It wasn't until I heard you guys talking, like, a month ago or something, and I was like, oh, I should. I should reach out. The way I make friends is like, I make content, and then I invite them to be collaborators. And I realized we had already been talking. I totally forgot.
- [09:15]
Danielle
Yeah. That was awesome that you did that whole clip. So I'll show you. I don't think Adam has seen, but Zach does this thing where, oh, now you can collaborate on Instagram.
- [09:25]
Adam doesn't know anything about Instagram, but.
- [09:27]
You can collaborate with other creators on Instagram now. So Zach had listened to one of our episodes, the one about our vacation and where we're talking about how, like, you kept saying to me, where's the bathroom? Where's this? And so he did a little thing about that, which was really cool on his Instagram, which I loved and appreciated. So thank you. I'm so curious. You know, I follow you. I love your content. Obviously. Like, you know, Eve Rodsky, we've had her on the podcast a bunch of times, who's sort of the fair play, you know, queen. And I'm just interested in how you got into this, because I. You know, it's so awesome to have men in this space of the mental load and, you know, domestic labor and all of that, but it's rare.
- [10:18]
Zach
Yeah. So, I mean, where it started was. I mean, I've been making videos probably since 2016. Uh, and it actually. It actually, when I was on YouTube back in 2016, 17, 18, we actually got separated because I was too into YouTube, and I was, like, spending way more time on it than the house we just bought and agreed to renovate. We had separated in 2018, got back together, and I realized that I. I still had the itch for, like, making content. Um, and my. So I was a teacher for eight years teaching math and science, and my students kept making these terrible TikTok videos that would go instantly viral in, like, 2019. I was like, I am, one, missing out and two, like, these are trash videos. I know I can do a better job. So I committed to making TikTok videos 2021. And then eight months in, after our daughter was born, I started talking about fatherhood. Um, and I think people kind of latched onto that at first. That was my first, like, significant following. Went from about 2,000 to 50,000 in a month. And then over a year of talking A lot about, like, fathering, being a parent, being a partner. Laura Danger and Abby Eckel I was following at the time. They said I should definitely check out Fair Play. So as I was reading it, I made sure to. Because I think you can only listen to the book and its shock value, like, for the first time once. So I made sure every time I, like, had an epiphany to talk about it on video. And we started implementing the Fair Play method. I started sharing with it, sharing about it on Tik Tok. And then I made my first video saying, I think I just added Mental load for my wife. And the first example was I had asked her, like, hey, like, do you have something in mind for pajamas tonight? She. She often had, like, a preference of what pajamas to put our. Our toddler in. And I was like, I could have said, hey, here's what I'm thinking. Like, any objection to that? And that video did surprisingly well. I was like, all right, I'll give us another swing at this. And then, like, two or three days later, I made another one, which I called Mental Part one, where I said, we're putting our tether down again for. For nap. And she was sick. And I said, should we do water or milk? And all I said was, like, I could have easily just said, why don't we do milk? Here's why. Or we can do water if you want. And that. That video is at 6.4 million on. On Tik Tok. And so then that's when I started. I was like, well, any good content creator would continue with this. So I made 10 more episodes in, like, the next 10 days. A handful of them did really well. And then I hired a coach. I was listening to your last episode talking about, everyone's an Instagram influencer, growth hacker. I. I think I. I got a really good coach, Coach Stone on Tik Tok. And he's like, so the Mental series went well, and then you stopped. Why did you stop? What's wrong with you? So he got me back on the train. I was making three videos a day. And today I'm on part 247 of the mental Ode series. And by the time you guys are listening to this, I'm sure be in the 50s or 70s. So at some point, I just started getting a lot of messages saying, can you please create courses? Can you please create something to help the men in our lives understand? And so I got the Fair Play facilitator training of the hundred of the facilitators. There are. There's Three of us that are guys. And I'm currently, from what I understand, I'm the only one that has group programming, so I'm kind of the only show in town for a male fair play facilitator. There's plenty of relationship coaches. I call myself an invisible labor coach. So I kind of made content, and the market told me what they needed, and I built it.
- [14:27]
Danielle
I mean, it certainly is needed because I do feel like that is something that couples work on for years. Years. And it's like a whole unlearning process because, you know, we're. We've all been like, yeah, well, do.
- [14:43]
Adam
They programs, do they work on it for years? It's more of just a back and forth battle of not even realizing there's such a thing as called the mental load. It's just, hey, listen. And you know, without even saying it in your own mind. We've done this on the podcast. We're here six years now, and we've done this so many times back and forth on our episodes, not even realizing we're talking about the mental load. It's just a battle of, well, hey, you don't help out with this. And I, you know, I'll come back with, well, you don't help me with. And it's just. We're not working on it. We're just arguing about it.
- [15:16]
Zach
Adam, I'm gonna. I'm gonna put you on the spot for a second. So it's September right now, and one of the challenges that I put out and, like, we'll work on it. So one of the huge things that I coach my guys to do is, is to just label. Just practice labeling, similar to when we're practicing regulating our emotions. Just being able to say out loud what our emotions are. Like, I'm feeling shame, I'm feeling guilt. I'm feeling hurt. I'm feeling sad. I'm feeling lonely. Like, a lot of guys are not taught to even feel those emotions. They're like, you're a guy, you probably feel angry, and that's about it. That's. Maybe you can have some joy, but mostly just anger. And we just stuff all of it into the anger bucket. So I think labeling in that context, really valuable. So what I have guys do is, is identify invisible labor around them. So I'm gonna give you a couple categories. I'll. I'll give an example. First. Danielle, I'm sure you'll have no shortage of things to say. So, Adam, this will be a good test, sort of, I think, for. I think, a Lot of guys struggle with this because they're forced to do it as much, I think, especially if they're not the default parent. So the. The first one that I start with is domestic labor. That's simple things like, it can be bigger things like doing the dishes, doing the laundry, taking out the trash, and it can be small things like putting. Putting the shoes back where they belong by the door, picking up the sock on the ground if the cat puked in the corner, cleaning it up. So it's physical things. Give me. Give me an example of maybe some domestic labor that you do and that Danielle does.
- [16:56]
Adam
I think also, it's not quite as simple as just letting you know a list of things because it's evolved. Because of us doing a podcast.
- [17:05]
Danielle
It's evolved so much.
- [17:06]
Adam
You know, we. We discuss these things more than the norm. So what I tell you today, it's not gonna mean as much as if we had this conversation six years ago or even four years ago.
- [17:17]
Danielle
Even. Even six months ago.
- [17:21]
Adam
Okay. I mean, oh, my God. No, but it's evolved. It's not just like, all of a sudden, in six months, things got better. Right.
- [17:29]
Danielle
I mean, it has gotten a lot.
- [17:31]
Adam
Okay. But anyway, so I also, I've always been. I'm not that, like, typical guy, you know, who leaves his underwear on the floor, like, kicks his shoes off when he. Soon. Like, I've always been conscious of that anyway, being more of a, you know, a cleaner person, a more organized person. So it's not along those lines. But now. So I'm sorry, you asked me the things that I do.
- [17:56]
Zach
Yeah. And so. And so only the goal here is just to label. I think practice labeling is like, that's the only reason people see me as an expert, because I've made 240 videos labeling stuff. And usually when I stitch something, it's. I. You know, there's that trend of. There's the woman kind of counting down. She's. We have to be at practice by 8, so we need to leave by 7:15. So I need to get the kids fed and ready by 6:30. And like, all I did was I, I stitched that. I say, this is an example of mental load. When she's talking about X, talking about Y, talking about Z. This is emotional labor. This is mental load. This is clerical labor. By labeling things, what I've found is that we feel less alone. Like, oh, there's a word for this crappy thing that I'm experiencing or this frustration that I have. Um, and I think especially when men are Able to see. Oh, I can label the things that she is experiencing. I think I've pulled them a lot on Instagram is I've, I often asked like to the women. I have a 91% woman in the audience. I ask them often, what is the experience you have when guys are not like when your partners are not holding this? Number one was lonely when. And Danielle, does that hit for you?
- [19:11]
Danielle
Oh, 100%, yes.
- [19:13]
Zach
For, for sure. Yeah. So I think lonely is probably top one. I know for Alyssa, she said hurt is number two, fear is kind of number three and or sad is number four. And so as I'm choosing those words, I'm specifically using the connection codes words on here for the. You guys should totally talk to tier wedges from connection codes. They have a podcast as well. But those are like the core emotions that like most humans are able to identify. So similarly my, my goal is to help guys better label and, and see invisible labor. And that's, that's what we do in the, the mental mastery community. All right, Adam, come back to you.
- [20:01]
Adam
I have a little bit of a two part question real quick if that's okay.
- [20:03]
Zach
Sure.
- [20:05]
Adam
Do you primarily deal with women and their issues with their husbands or partners or, you know.
- [20:13]
Zach
So my. Of the about 100ish couples that I've worked with by now I would say that I directly work with men primarily. And I think main reason is that I, when I was first making content, I recognized I was kind of shitting on men. I was like, these idiots like don't understand stuff. And then I realized, okay, that's a great way to get just a woman audience, but what good am I actually doing in the world? And I realized I actually wanted to help guys like myself, just like a year younger than myself. So I, I recognized that I wanted to create programming for men. I think a lot of women do the emotional labor of trying to explain and educate and make things palatable for their partners. And I recognize that there aren't enough of us guys doing that emotional labor for men to also understand. And so I stitched a video on TikTok yesterday of a guy saying like if you, if you don't wipe diapers, you're. If you don't do diapers, you're lazy. If you think your sleep is more important than your partner, you're lazy. If you're this, you're that, you're lazy, you're entitled, you're selfish. And I commented just saying I get where you're going with the video. And I used to make content like this. And I don't know that it moves the world forward a whole lot. I know that's super validating for a lot of women that are experiencing it. And it's not something shareable that she can actually educate her partner by, by handing over to them. And half the comment section is, how do I, how do I send this to my husband without sending it to my husband? And over time, I've been working on making videos that educate in a way that women feel comfortable sharing it with their husband. Because I'm not shitting on them.
- [22:02]
Adam
Well, from. Based upon what you were saying before, you know, the emotion of it and choosing your, or labeling it, where you know, with Danielle it was, you know, loneliness, emotional sadness, you know, all those things. And for me it's frustration, anger, you know, at that side of the chart, if that exists on there.
- [22:23]
Zach
You know, I would challenge there's something underneath the anger because usually anger is a, is like a second, second hand emotion. It's usually like hiding something underneath. I, I would bet. I know for me, a lot of times whenever anger comes out, it's hurt underneath. But you know, our, our society tells most of us men like, no, you don't feel hurt, you just feel anger, buddy. Like, you don't, you don't feel fear, you don't feel loneliness, you're just angry. So I would, I would challenge that there might be some, I want to say, softer emotions underneath.
- [22:57]
Adam
Well, I, I think part of it came from, was, you know, we, I assume, like a lot of couples, you know, Danielle has things that only she took care of and I have things that only I took care of for our household. Okay, so when Danielle would start, you know, complaining to me and asking me, you know, can I help? Can I do more? Can I? And I never said, well, can you do more for me too? Can you help me with these things? Like, I never. So I was just like, I guess that's where the anger, maybe that's the underlying underlying anger came from, is just how could she be asking me to do all these things to take the load off of her when she's not even offering it to me? And I never even asked. So maybe that's where it could have stemmed from.
- [23:44]
Zach
But I feel like I'm hearing a hurt underneath that, which is that the efforts that you put in, you feel like are not being validated or seen or appreciated.
- [23:53]
Adam
Yes, yes, very good.
- [23:57]
Danielle
You should coach.
- [24:00]
Adam
No, but what we've learned is just from talking to each other, that actually works, you know, like we vocalize to each other.
- [24:08]
Danielle
And the labeling is really. It is huge, the labeling, because once we broke it down and knew exactly what it was, I think what happens is, you know, we get into these patterns and we did it for such a long time where, you know, it's just a back and forth of the. You don't. You know, the generalizations, the. You don't do enough. The, you know, how come you don't understand that I need this? Or, you know, all these things that, like, you throw at somebody. And really, the. It's the labeling that, you know, like, being as specific as possible really does. And I don't just mean being like, okay, this is what. This is how you need to fold the clothes, and this is how, you know, like. But. But I think that there's this idea that we should just know exactly what the other person needs from us. And number one, that's always changing. And number two, I think that, like, we. It's a really hard thing to communicate about. A really hard thing to communicate about, especially when, you know, we're. You kind of look at yourself like a. You know, there are a lot of women who. I know who. I feel like they seem like they can do it all. And when, you know, when you're a person who's asking your partner for more and more help or other people for more and more help, it's sort of like, wait a minute. Why can't I do this? But, you know, why. Why do I need so much help? Yeah, but I mean, I think everybody's just exhausted.
- [25:38]
Zach
Yeah, it's like the. The dichotomy of, like, you know, that your partner is capable of doing more because you. You've seen it for. You know, I think a lot of people would say there's unicorns online. Like, wow, this. This lady hit the jackpot. This guy does diapers. This guy does X, Y, and Z. And then you have our parents and. And the older generation saying, like, you should be lucky that he does any of this stuff. What are you talking about? So you're stuck in between, like, those two spaces of, like, you know, the old, old women that are. That are. Have been seen and lived in patriarchy for a long time and, like, have learned to have low expectations. And then your expectations are up here because you know, it's possible. And then you're being like, hit back and forth between the two areas.
- [26:30]
Unknown
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- [27:11]
Danielle
Yeah, and that is part of it is, I think, this generational thing that is so hard to break away from. I mean, you know how. What you were raised with, and that is huge. I mean, that's what we see when we're growing up. You know, like, that's, that's it. Unless you spend a lot of time at other people's houses, if you come from a traditional home, that those are your expectations. And that's a really, really hard thing to break, I think, because there's not enough exposure. Like, where are, you know, where are guys going? You know, that they're going to see other, other types of systems in a home that are not, you know, based upon the woman doing most of the domestic labor, if that's what they grew up with, you know. And so I kind of wanted to shift a little bit to talk about the holidays that, you know, are coming up.
- [28:04]
Zach
So let's come back to. We're going to. We're just going to label the different categories. Sort of invisible labor. So what is the domestic labor, Adam, that you see yourself doing? It's usually physical in nature. You could see it on a camera and. Or you can. You can always say, like, I did X, I moved X, I did something. It's. It's pretty visible. What is something that you do? What's something that she does?
- [28:27]
Adam
So are these things that Danielle has asked me for more help throughout the years or just stuff that I've always done? Stuff that she. I'm sorry.
- [28:38]
Zach
Something. Some things that would fall within domestic labor this week, that specific label presently.
- [28:45]
Adam
Okay, so like, like doing the dishes, that kind of thing.
- [28:49]
Zach
Beautiful. That's one.
- [28:50]
Adam
Bringing in the packages from outside, taking out the garbage, taking care of our water system.
- [28:57]
Zach
Good.
- [28:58]
Adam
Getting the kids up in the morning, every morning before school.
- [29:02]
Zach
All right, good. All right, now we're gonna go. Category two is clerical labor slash gray work. So clerical labor is in our house. It is identifying if we want to change credit cards that a recurring bill is on. It's looking at the mail that comes in and choosing where it goes and either filing it or throwing it away. This one, it. When I do corporate talks this is much more relevant. But refilling printer paper, printing out something like. We have a. We have the garbage calendar. We print it out and put it on the inside of one of our cabinets. What's some clerical slash gray work that exists in your home? Also, manipulating spreadsheets can be, like, the technical aspect of it as well.
- [29:48]
Danielle
Okay, how about, like, making appointments and stuff?
- [29:50]
Adam
Yeah, that's. I was going to kind of ask, like.
- [29:52]
Zach
Yep. Yeah. Like putting things in the calendar, scheduling things. That accounts.
- [29:58]
Adam
So, like, in. Like, in the last week, that kind of stuff that I've done.
- [30:02]
Zach
Yeah, something that you do. Something that you've seen her do.
- [30:08]
Adam
There's, like, taking care of getting books for school, ordering them online. Count. That kind of stuff. Like, for the.
- [30:14]
Zach
Yeah, that's good. Starting a new school year, even scheduling this with me. I guess your assistant did some of that, but that would. That would count, too.
- [30:24]
Adam
Well, actually, I mean, that's not fair because Danielle was sick this last week and a half, so I pretty much took care of everything.
- [30:31]
Danielle
But you. But he stepped up and took care.
- [30:33]
Adam
Of everything and you.
- [30:35]
Danielle
And he took care of me again. This is all, like.
- [30:38]
Zach
This would be perfect to label in the next category. Yeah, but this is.
- [30:42]
Danielle
I mean, really. But it's. It's a testament to the fact that, like, I didn't think it would ever change, you know, and. And, you know, it's not perfect, and we both have a lot of work to do still, but, my God, it's like a tangible. It's a. It's a visceral difference.
- [30:59]
Adam
I mean, you know, besides that kind of stuff, I guess, you know, like paying the bills and making sure that, you know, house services are done, whether it's gutter cleaning or that kind of stuff. Not me, but, you know, making the appointment, having it come, pay the bill, you know, that kind of stuff.
- [31:14]
Zach
All right.
- [31:15]
Adam
Does that count? I don't know. Maybe I'm not.
- [31:17]
Zach
Yeah. That we're. We're edging on the side of. We're heading towards cognitive labor, which is next. So this is the mental load, slash, cognitive labor. So these are things that you typically can't see you. It might. If you're on a camera. If you're watching someone on camera, they might. They're. If they're kind of like. They get that puzzled look on their face, and maybe they're moving their head back and forth, that's probably cognitive labor happening. But for the most part, you can't see it. You could hear it spoken out loud if someone were talking to themselves usually, but for the most part it's like, it's linguistic, but it typically is, is super invisible. So I think it could be spoken out loud, but typically you can't see it. So these in our house, let's see. Even just today it is. We recognize she has to get to daycare by 9:00, our 3 year old. So Alyssa was looking at the time at 8:00 saying, okay, we need to get her hair done in the next 15 minutes and, and communicating to her, hey Ev, we're going to start working on this in the next couple minutes. It was when I accidentally sat on the couch this morning. She's like, hey, can you do the goats? It's time that they need to get fed her. Just being aware of what time it is. And I had a moment of time blindness when I realized, oh shoot, that's right, I haven't done that. I got defensive in the moment because I was annoyed that I had just spent a bunch of time feeding the cats work on Everly's lunch. Meanwhile, she was in fact on Reddit on her phone watching tv because she wasn't. But she, I didn't know that she wasn't feeling well this morning. So cognitive is usually, it's like logistical, it's calculating, it's thinking about things kind of logically. What, what cognitive labor, Adam, do you, have you done maybe this past week? What has Danielle done this past week?
- [33:11]
Adam
Can you, can you do this for me, please?
- [33:14]
Zach
That it's so ironically. So I was on, I was on a call today where I, I did a first corporate talk and I do two 90 minute workshops and the, the manager or like the boss of the person that I was Talking to came 17 minutes late to the call and I asked them pretty much the same question because I was saying, hey, this is what I already talked about with your team that you missed and here's. And so I pretty much did a short workshop and I said, tell me a little bit more about your role. And then he, he went to the person I originally scheduled with and I was like that right there. You asking that question to them is cognitive labor. So I'm going to let you think a little bit more on this one, Adam. Let's see. So you guys have older kids. I'm imagining things that you're aware of, things that you're remembering, things that you're giving reminders to around the family, things that elaborating more on the awareness is like, I know that something needs to happen around a certain Time. And so I need to proactively do X those kind of thoughts. That would be mental load slash cognitive labor.
- [34:26]
Danielle
Yes. You in the morning, getting them up and everything. Probably.
- [34:30]
Adam
Oh, I guess that's why you were saying before that that kind of translates or rolls into this kind of thing. Yeah. So I'm, I guess that I'm, for the most part I'm the first one up in the house and I have a good hour before I have to do anything except drink my coffee and do some work on the computer, watch tv, whatever it is in the morning. And I know at a certain time I go start waking up the boys, I start getting there or the youngest.
- [34:56]
Zach
When is this? What time does the alarm in your head go off that you need to start waking them up?
- [35:02]
Adam
That I, that I realize that that's going to happen. Not what time I wake them up. Yeah, between 5 and 6 in the morning.
- [35:10]
Zach
So between 5 and 6, like is there any.
- [35:14]
Adam
Well, when I'm up, whenever I get up, if it's between 5 and 6, I know I have to get the boys up at 7:00. So it's in my mind that whole time until it's time to go wake them up.
- [35:24]
Zach
That's cognitive labor right there. It's just thinking about probably also. So we'll be going to emotional labor next. But I would say if you're also thinking about, you know, they had a late night last night or I know they have a project coming up, thinking about how you'll adjust your tone to wake them up and or what reminders you're going to choose to talk about as you wake them up. That's emotional labor is the adjustment of your tone, the way that you're thinking about messaging your wake up call. So I think the, the cognitive is just like the what and the emotional labor is like the how. Keep going. I want to see if we can get a couple more examples here.
- [36:01]
Adam
Well, the, the example that you just used, we're saving for the emotional part.
- [36:07]
Zach
Yeah, we're gonna save that. Yeah. Stick with cognitive. That was perfect. Just like the logistical, logical, like the thinking stuff.
- [36:15]
Adam
The thinking stuff. Okay. I guess knowing that after I get them up and they're all starting to get ready that I have to get out of the house by a certain time to make sure I get to work when I need.
- [36:27]
Zach
Did you have to leave work to get to this podcast on time? Yeah, like by a certain time.
- [36:32]
Adam
Yeah.
- [36:32]
Zach
So I'd say yeah. Just keeping an eye on the clock, making sure you don't have extra conversations or something.
- [36:37]
Adam
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:39]
Zach
Rose Hackman talks about in her book Emotional labor, that it's the adjustment of your tone, it's the way that you deliver a message, and it's the consideration of other people's feelings and experience comparatively to your. To your own emotions and experience, I think.
- [36:55]
Adam
Yeah. Well, the example that you gave was actually spot on because I know. I pretty much know the night before what it's going to be the next morning to wake them up. I know how late they're staying up. I know what they're doing, if they're playing video games, if they're, you know, whatever they're doing. And I know what it's going to be like. We've been doing this long enough. So my. The way the tone that I use, the voice that I use, the volume of my voice that in the morning depends on knowing what it's going to be when I get in there. Even before I even try to start waking them up, if they're going to get up easily or not. I know what it's going to be. So I'm kind of pre, you know, whatever with myself, telling myself this is how I have to go in here to make this happen, because I know. I know what I'm in for.
- [37:43]
Zach
Yeah.
- [37:44]
Adam
And. Yeah. And like, they make fun. They know my voices. They. They. They mock me with my voices that I use when I. Depending on how tired they are.
- [37:51]
Zach
That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. So far as you've been labeling these things, can you see where it's now going to make a difference? Like a. A week down the line when you are doing the cognitive labor of thinking about something or adjusting your tone, knowing that there's a specific word for what you are experiencing, can you already feel. Feel the difference in it?
- [38:17]
Adam
Can I feel the difference knowing that it's. I can label it.
- [38:21]
Zach
It's laborable. Yeah.
- [38:23]
Danielle
Like it's a real thing.
- [38:25]
Adam
Yeah. Yeah, I think so.
- [38:29]
Zach
You'll know in a week. Don't worry. Okay. So the, the next one that I hit on is kinkeeping. Actually, before that, because it's going to lead into our next item is I'm going to say matrescence. So matrescence is not like a kind of labor, but you know that word.
- [38:48]
Danielle
Yeah. Matrescence. It's about the. The experience of becoming a mother.
- [38:53]
Zach
Yeah. Just like adolescence. It's like adults.
- [38:55]
Adam
I wasn't doubting you. I was just.
- [38:59]
Zach
But matrescence. Yeah, it's like the M A T R, like maternity leave. Matrescence is Just like becoming a mother. So I try to arm people with that one because I think there's a lot of moments when moms are becoming moms and there's, there's like, what's wrong with her? Why is she going crazy? Why is she X, Y and Z and not really giving her space to adjust, you know, her, her life and how she sees herself. And I think it's similar with. When we see teenagers and they're going through phases of adolescence, we like, we understand, oh, like they're, they're growing hormones, they're, they're dealing with all these things. So I think similarly, that word really helps me appreciate, I think, the changes that moms go through that I know I didn't have to go through. When Alyssa was pregnant, one of the things that she had to worry about was the changing of her clothes size. I can wear the same things I've been wearing for the last decade. I know that she had to start watching out for drinking, alcohol, the drugs that she was taking in the way that she would move her body and how fast she can move it. I purposely, I didn't have the word matrescence back then or emotional labor or mentally, but I wore a weighted vest along with her. I didn't drink. I didn't. I went cold turkey on coffee with her. So I was doing a couple of those things along with her so that I could. Again, didn't have the word for it, but I, I could go through a little bit of the matrescence with her by method acting. Which comes. Brings me to my last item is kinkeeping. Are you guys familiar with this one?
- [40:43]
Danielle
It's got to be something about, like dealing with each other's families.
- [40:47]
Zach
Yes. So I think you could call kinkeeping is something as simple as. So one of the things that I coach my guys to do is have a weekly meeting with their partner. Thanksgiving. Last year, one of the things that came up in the three weeks before Thanksgiving was I said, okay, who do we want to invite? It was our, we're in a new house. It was the first time we were hosting Thanksgiving. Said, okay, we know that my aunt and my mom and your mom are going to be the main people bringing food into this house. How do we want to even go about texting? Do we want to do a three way text with me, my aunt and my mom? Do we want me to just communicate with my aunt? Do you want me to communicate with my mom through and through my aunt? Like, literally just the consideration of how we want to go about Texting was. Was one thing to consider, but k. Keeping can be as grand as organizing family vacations and organizing family gatherings, and it can be down to really simple texting your cousin when it's their birthday. Text people in your. In your family to keep the kin together. And I think the brunt of the. Yeah, the brunt of the emotional labor and cognitive labor we see in the holidays is around kinkeeping.
- [42:08]
Danielle
So, yeah, I was. One of the things about the holidays is that around, you know, right before Thanksgiving last year and Thanksgiving and after Thanksgiving, we had the worst fight we ever had in our entire marriage, pretty much. I mean, it was an explosion and it was a lot about the king keeping and the. You know, this is one of the things about the holidays that I guess doesn't feel like domestic labor and doesn't feel like, you know, invisible labor and everything, but it is. It's the dealing with, you know, being forced to deal with social situations that you're not comfortable dealing with and not feeling like your partner has your back. And I guess that. That. I mean, again, we've done a lot. A lot of work this year. I mean, a lot of work. And I do think it's different. And we're going to walk into Thanksgiving in a very different situation this year, I think. But that. I think when we were going through that, I think it was extremely relatable, I'm sure, to some husbands also, but especially to wives.
- [43:22]
Zach
I didn't. I'm sure there's an episode on this. I haven't. I haven't heard it from what I'm hearing so far. Can I make a guess as to what happened?
- [43:29]
Danielle
Sure.
- [43:31]
Zach
So I'm guessing that a comment or something was sent in Danielle's direction. And from what I heard about, like, having your partner's back, either there was a boundary that you expected him to keep that he didn't help you keep, or there was. Yeah, I'm gonna. I'll leave it. That generally did I kind of hit it and.
- [43:54]
Danielle
And do 25 years worth of comments. And finally I couldn't take it anymore. And, you know, and just.
- [44:04]
Zach
You'd been doing the emotional labor for years of biting your tongue and choosing to modulate your emotions and modulate your tone in the way that you responded to the comments.
- [44:14]
Danielle
I was done.
- [44:15]
I was done.
- [44:16]
Zach
And you wanted that emotional labor to be done by him. And by the way, you're going to hear me use the shit out of these words because that's. That's the goal and what I teach. My. My Clients is like, use them as much as you can, such that it's like a part of your daily language. But, yeah, so.
- [44:33]
Danielle
Yeah, so.
- [44:34]
Zach
So you want him to do it.
- [44:35]
Danielle
And I know that for people, it's, you know, all the time. Some people have to see their people. They don't want to see, you know, more than other, you know, times. But the holiday, that's really a big deal. Besides all the other, I mean, we could go, you know, we could do episodes and episodes about everything from, you know, the buying and the cooking and the school shows and, you know, God, like, you know, I get anxious just thinking about it. But, you know, I think that that is something that is really a part of. And tell me if I'm wrong is part of that emotional labor that is really, you know, not something that. I don't think we include that in it very much. We always think about, like, helping around the house and everything, but those boundaries, you know, that you're talking about and everything, and helping someone to feel a certain way, and it wasn't, you know, it was also just like. I'm also wondering. I know that there are certain situations that you cannot avoid going somewhere. Right. It's just unavoidable. But what kind of things can be done to make the situation, you know, easier and more, you know, like, more doable?
- [45:58]
Zach
Yeah. So I'll start kind of on the spectrum of. Of the direction we went with the. The definitions there. So, again, one of the things that I coach my clients to do is have a weekly meeting with their partner, similar to a business meeting. We call it in our house the boring meeting, because Alyssa finds it endlessly boring. And she says, so we've recorded a couple of them for people to. To watch. And she's like, no one's going to watch this. This is so boring. She. She pretends like she wants to fall asleep by the end. But three weeks before Thanksgiving, we were having the conversations, all right, who's bringing what? What's the menu? I know Alyssa had a lot of thinking that she wanted to do around it, and I wanted to support that and not. Not, like, try to be overbearing. So I was consistently looking for, how can I support her without asking how to support her? In those three weeks coming up, we consistently talked about, like, who's bringing what? Who. What people are coming by, when, what time are we going to have it? And then on the two weeks prior, we had a meeting where we walked around at our whole house. I knew that her standard of care was going to be A lot cleaner than mine. I'm just proud that we have a house. But. But she will only be proud when she feels like it's spotless. So we. In those 90 minutes, we walked around and we identified the domestic labor that needed to happen, and we identified, okay, what is going to get in our way of having a good time by hosting. So we created a really long list. I. I really tried to meet her where she wanted to, around the domestic labor requests that she had, like delinting the seats and polishing the wood furniture, which I don't think we had ever done. And one of the other things that we ended up talking about was there was gonna be a lot of things going on in the kitchen. There's one sink, there's one oven, and she was gonna have. We called it like a living sink. So typically, it just fills up. And I own the dishes in our house, so I would put it in the dishwasher at the end of the day. What we agreed on is that as things were ending up in the sink, my duty was to clean them and get them back into their home if I saw anything. So talking about that ahead of time, and one of the comments I ended up making is like, alyssa, use so many goddamn dishes when you cook. Like, use, like, two or three times more plates than I do. I just brush the crumbs off, you get a new plate. Like, can we. Can we cut back on that? And I'm really glad we talked about that up front. She's like, wow, I am triggered right now. So she identified. While we're in this meeting, Part of the reason that I recommend this meeting is you can come emotionally prepared for having constructive conversations like this. So when. When that moment came up in our meeting where we're emotionally prepared and not heightened, we're able to identify, okay, that is a comment that I'm not gonna make Thanksgiving morning. Glad we got that out of the way and identified that. I'm just gonna keep. I'm just gonna do the emotional labor of being annoyed and keep my mouth shut, because I don't. I can. I can deal with an extra dish. I don't need to piss her off. And she ended up not using nearly as many dishes, also because I made that comment originally. So we ended up setting, like, a good boundary and, like, just identifying how the day was gonna go. I think similarly, in even the week before Thanksgiving, we started talking about what Christmas gifts we wanted to. To have in and around our family. So we identified where we were going to end up going for Christmas Day, Christmas Eve. If there's anything we really wanted to do during the holiday season, I'm a big fan of watching the Wonderful Life on one of those nights we have the past, like three years, we end up falling asleep halfway through it. But I think coming back kind of to what you're talking about is in those meetings, in those preventative conversations, the goal, I think is identifying, okay, what are those triggers going to be? What are those things that are going to come up that are going to piss one or both of us off or is going to require a lot of emotional labor? How can we support each other? What are the boundaries that we expect from each other and that either of us are willing to do? And I'm betting part of the reason that your argument was really hard one was had. Had. I'm imagining you guys have talked about the boundaries before, but it might have been six months or, or years prior and there was a, an understanding. It felt like you had Danielle, where he was going to back it up. But like him being emotionally prepared to hold those boundaries, he probably wasn't ready for and maybe cracked in the moment a little bit where I'm guessing, like comments slid rather than him backing you up the way that you had expected. And because you didn't, you had a conversation three months ago, you know, along with a hundred conversations the past 10 years. He wasn't necessarily emotionally as emotionally prepared as he could have been going into that. Does that feel accurate?
- [51:19]
Danielle
It's bigger than that.
- [51:20]
Adam
But it's a complicated list. It's okay.
- [51:22]
Danielle
It's multi layered.
- [51:23]
Adam
Yeah, it's. Yeah.
- [51:25]
Danielle
Getting better. Getting better. And. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, it is. It's a huge issue.
- [51:31]
Adam
You're on the right track. Let's, let's.
- [51:33]
Danielle
Yeah.
- [51:34]
Adam
Yeah.
- [51:34]
Danielle
Right.
- [51:34]
Adam
You're not wrong. Yeah.
- [51:36]
Danielle
Yeah.
- [51:37]
Zach
So, like this Thanksgiving or this, this holiday season, what is a conversation that you guys could have a week ahead of time that Danielle, you think you might feel more confident in, in asking him to hold that boundary. And Adam, you might feel more emotionally prepared to do the emotional area. We're holding the boundary.
- [52:00]
Adam
Well, I, you know, with a situation like this, talking specifically about, let's say, Thanksgiving. Right. Like, I know at this point what the conversation already is and what I need to do to, to be there emotionally and have Danielle's back and, you know, all the things that I've heard for 25 years and know and understand this year, so.
- [52:24]
Danielle
Lucky 25.
- [52:25]
Zach
Yes.
- [52:25]
Adam
We'll probably have the conversation again, but there's I don't think going to be any frustration towards each other this time because you, you're agreeing with me.
- [52:36]
Danielle
Yeah.
- [52:37]
Adam
Okay, good. All right. Yeah, so, so yeah, we'll probably have the conversation, but I'm not worried about it.
- [52:45]
Danielle
Yeah, but I mean it was, you know, that's the thing also, I mean your weekly check in thing is brilliant because I mean, for so many reasons and it's such a simple thing but yet it can be hard to do and find the time. But yeah, I mean, I think that, you know that these types, the holidays, the thing about the holidays that I think people get wrong or assume is, you know, it's supposed to be this like magical, wonderful time. And I do think, I can't speak for husbands, I'm not one, but for wives, for moms, it is extremely stressful and having to be number one, the magic maker and feeling like whatever loneliness you're feeling regularly as far as domestic labor and stuff goes is completely exponentially, you know, bigger because there's in this short period of time this unreal to do list. And on top of that, there's the financial aspect of it, right, where you know, you're in charge of the gifts and then there's the argument, well, you spent too much on the gifts. Okay, well where the fuck were you when I was buying the gifts? And you know what I mean, like all of those components.
- [54:12]
Zach
Yeah.
- [54:15]
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- [54:56]
Zach
Yeah, and I think, you know, to, I, I can't take, you know, full credit for those weekly meetings. I feel like I've heard it in different areas, you know, for years before we tried doing them quarterly back when we were first married. Then we tried doing them weekly or monthly, I think. And it wasn't really until about a year and a half ago that we started trying to do them religiously. But one of the, one of the things that I often hear. So I, I don't, I'm sure there's a clinical name for this, but I call it the do better loop, which is something bad happens a Fight ensues, probably over something what's seemingly small, but it's like the. The resentment has built up and it's overflowed, and it comes out. And then the husband is 110% for. For three weeks. He's. He's fearful. He doesn't want to have another one of those conversations. He's on top of laundry. He's on top of the dishes. He's early picking up the kids. Like, he's on top of everything. Andy's in fear, in a shame state. And then some time passes, and then there's no arguments, and they seem to be okay. And then status quo kicks back in, like, okay, we're good. And she doesn't feel like she has a space to give constructive feedback, so she bites her tongue, she holds in the emotional labor, and slowly the resentment starts building back up. When we're back in the status quo mode, and then when we get back to a boiling point, another. There's a sock on the ground, forgot to take the trash out on time. That's when it boils over. And I know Alyssa. She. I remember having a conversation in 2018. We were separated for three months, and she had said. Like I said, why? I think I'd said something probably like, why are you so emotional about this? She's like, I don't know how the fuck to get it through your head if I don't get emotional. So she feels like she needs to ramp things up for me to hear it as well, as she's increasingly frustrated that she's had this conversation with me 10 times already over the years. So the value of having that weekly meeting, I think, is one. I think there's a lot of opportunities for guys to be bearing the mental load, and they. They don't. I know for, you know, for Christmas gifts, you. Jesus, Daniel, you probably already have a couple things in your Amazon cart thinking about what. What you're gonna. But. But I know Elissa does, too. By having that weekly meeting, we have a chance to kind of jump in. So, like, what you had said is, like, where were you when I was buying things? Having that weekly meeting. And you're looking ahead at a week, two weeks, three weeks, six weeks. You can be like, hey, you know, Black Friday is coming up in a week. Let's talk about what we want so that we're not just looking at shiny things on there and getting random stuff. Let's talk about a budget for it. Can we afford to, you know, spend 500 or $1,000 on gifts this year? Are we getting things for our aunts, uncles and cousins or we just sticking to the, the nuclear family? So I think there's an opportunity for guys to jump in. And I think a lot of guys are also getting more credit for the mental that they do bear. But I think a lot of their wives feel lonely because they never hear about it and then they order the things on Amazon ahead of time because, like, well, he never talked to me about it, so I'm just. It's not going to happen otherwise. But because we're having those meetings, we're getting ahead of that conversation and they're like, oh, you do think about Christmas six weeks ahead of time. I had no idea for years.
- [58:33]
Danielle
I had a meme go viral a long time ago, I don't know, five, six years ago, that was basically around the holidays. I had posted and it was basically like, you can complain about the credit card bill if and only if you've been in charge. You've, you know, you've taken some charge of buying the teachers, the bus drivers, the coaches, the tutors, you know, all the, you know, the, the barber, the whatever. Like all of the things, daily emotional.
- [59:06]
Zach
Labor that we don't see that make our kids have a. I mean, by.
- [59:10]
Danielle
The time you're done. Crazy. Yeah.
- [59:18]
Adam
I have a question. Yeah. That example I think is let's. The holiday gifts. Let's use that because that's what we were talking about. If, let's say, whether it's the wife or the husband, or in this case, let's say it's Danielle who's in charge of buying the gifts for the kids. Right. And she has her stuff in her Amazon cart. And maybe she feels. I don't think you do, but maybe.
- [59:44]
Zach
When you say in charge of. In charge of by default or because the two of you agreed on it.
- [59:50]
Adam
Well, there's a lot of things that we're both in charge of that we never agreed on that just were default from the beginning. And that is just one example.
- [60:02]
Zach
So I would, before your question is, I would aim for have a conversation about who owns what.
- [60:09]
Adam
Right. But, but let me continue with this example. Let's say now, because I spoke to you, Zach, I'm aware. Maybe she needs my help with this. Okay, so now I have some options. How can I get involved without talking to Danielle again? Right. Because there's a few different mental loads here that could happen all in the same situation. Right. So I could say, hey, Danielle, how can I help you with the gifts for the kids? That's a trigger Right there. Right. Because it's kind of.
- [60:40]
Zach
Because that assumes that she's the default for it. When you say help.
- [60:43]
Adam
Right. So that's not good. I could go and be like, oh, I know this kid wants this. I'll just go buy it. That's probably a bad idea too.
- [60:54]
Danielle
Bad idea, right?
- [60:55]
Adam
So as you were speaking, these are scenarios going through my mind of like thinking as the husband, you know, and how I think versus how Danielle thinks. How do we approach something like this to do the right thing the first time?
- [61:11]
Zach
So what I recommend a lot of the guys that I work with is for the guys to run these meetings. I think there's a lot of moments where I've heard wives be like, I don't want a meeting. Like, it's one more thing I got to manage. When the guys are running the meetings, not only do they have the opportunity to jump ahead of the cognitive labor that they, their partner's probably already doing, but they also have the opportunity to create the agenda and talk about these things. What I usually recommend around things like that, and you'll hear me, I, I've, I've critiqued a lot of, a lot of articles and a lot of videos of saying like, how can I, like how can I help when I come home? Like, I think that is for a lot of women, not all of them, but for a lot. That is a terrible question to ask. How can I help? What they'd probably rather see is you use your eyes and say, hey, I'm seeing X, Y and Z. I'm going to jump in on Z unless you want me to do something else. And when I was a math teacher, when I wanted to make a test hard, I'd give them all open response. That was my honor. Students when I had the college prep kids was a lower level. I gave them all multiple choice. And imagine how much easier the test would be is if not only are multiple choice, but there's a default answer C every single time if you don't answer. So you could literally just receive your test and hand it right back. They're all C. Think about how much less cognitive labor that is when one, when you receive multiple choice and two, if they're pre circled and you, you can just say sure. So I think the, I think the best way to probably go about that is come up with a list of gifts and say here's the things that I'm thinking our kids would want. Got X, Y and Z for Jonah, got a couple things for Mia, got a couple things for Ian.
- [63:07]
Danielle
He doesn't even know our kids names.
- [63:12]
Zach
So as you're like coming up with your list, like saying, I, I think they would like this because they showed interest in X, Y and Z. This one's. I don't know if they'll actually like it, but I feel like they could. Like, Daniel, as you're hearing about this possible list, how do you feel?
- [63:31]
Adam
Well, that's what I would have done. I just wanted to make sure you're.
- [63:34]
Danielle
The one who said it.
- [63:36]
Adam
So.
- [63:38]
Danielle
Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing that I like about the meetings and everything also is the discussion of, you know, what, what you're. Look, there are some gifts that it just makes more sense for him to get right, like the electronic stuff and everything. He just knows more about it. Last year I bought a computer for our youngest son and it wound up being like a shit show because I had no idea what I was doing, you know, and again, we were in a bad, we were in a bad place and you know, all that. But, but yeah, you know, so there are certain things that it just makes sense. Like of course you're going to be in charge of buying the computer or you're going to be in charge of, you know, buying whatever the phone or watch or, you know, but, but again, without sitting down to do that and to talk about it first, it doesn't happen.
- [64:34]
Zach
Yeah, yeah. And furthermore, I think selling, you know, the listeners, especially guys on like having the weekly meeting is that you're already, what you're doing is you're making some of your communications more efficient. So, you know, as Eve Roky would say is like when she was working with the couples that had, or the families that had a bunch of money that she said that she works with, families kind of like, forget the succession where they're like really rich and it's going to the three kids. And she would say, well, they don't communicate or, or this person doesn't communicate with that person. Like, yeah, you communicate when you walked, when they brought up that question and you left the room.
- [65:19]
Danielle
Right.
- [65:20]
Zach
That's another version of communication. It's just not all that articulate. You're already communicating with your partner. And sometimes that communication is, I don't care about the things that you hold and you sometimes you don't know that that's what's being perceived on the other side. So you get to take hold much more of that communication. And a lot of times it's going to be more efficient. All those things that, that Alyssa and I had talked about for Thanksgiving, we could have talked about that morning in the day before ad hoc and being like, okay, I did the rug. I think I'm going to do the windows next. No, don't do the windows next. Good. Polish the furniture. Okay, I'll go do that now. When you knock it all out in a 90 minute meeting. We probably saved an hour of bickering between us Thanksgiving morning in the prior days, so.
- [66:09]
Danielle
And I, I think the meetings can be fun. I mean, yeah, I think you can make it. I know, like, like when we sit together and have coffee or a cocktail or whatever. Like, I think, you know, I think that there's things that you can do to, you know, I don't know, get some appetizers, get some brunch, get some, you know, bring some, like, I don't know, make it cozy or whatever. Like, I think that there are ways to, you know, to make it like a little mini.
- [66:33]
Adam
That is true. I think we have meetings without realizing we're having.
- [66:36]
Zach
Me.
- [66:36]
Danielle
Yeah, yeah. You know, but, but the one other thing I was going to say. Oh, wait. And now I was going to forget. Now I'm going to forget now I can't remember what I was going to say.
- [66:48]
Zach
It'll, it'll come back to elaborate on what you're just saying. And I'll bet I'll come back to you. The.
- [66:56]
Danielle
He said I was sick before and I was, I was really, really sick for like a week and a half. And he, like I said, he really, really stepped up. And it was so interesting because, because I was so sick and like, literally couldn't do anything. And again, a few years ago, it wouldn't have mattered. I still, you know, my mom would have been over his mom. Like, it wouldn't have been him. But this time he really stepped up. And also knowing, like, for instance, he took our, our two boys to the doctor. They had physicals, took him to the doctor, he took our middle son. He needed school clothes. He took him shopping for school clothes. I didn't get a phone call from him at all. Like, he figured it all out.
- [67:35]
Adam
And his school supplies online.
- [67:37]
Danielle
I did school supplies online. But, but the thing is, is that like, you know, it was so interesting because where I usually would get a bunch of texts or phone calls or, you know, is this okay? Or is this, you know, whatever he did it, he was like, he handled it all. And again, like, maybe there was some stuff that wasn't done exactly as I would have done it, but I don't give a shit. Like, just please do it, you know, like, so you have to remember that also if you want. It's not going to get done exactly how you want it to, but it's still worth it.
- [68:14]
Zach
Yeah. I want to come back to like making, making the boring meeting, putting in quotes there not boring. So the, the three phases that I have the guys go through is. Phase one is habit setting. Make it like a time of week that is manageable. I know some people really can't fit it in until it's, you know, 10 o'clock on a Thursday night. But like do what, do what you got to do. Sometimes you gotta hire babysitters, sometimes you gotta suck it up and do it with your kids. But knowing that that's gonna be at least more efficient than the ad hoc communications. And part of that sometimes I say is like also figure out what treats you're bringing. Because those first four I think of setting the habit and saying like, this needs to be an enjoyable experience so that you want to keep showing up to it. I know a lot of people that I work with, the first couple are. Don't always go great because it off. Sometimes the guys don't come with an agenda and they're like, what do you want to talk about, honey? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like, what do you want? You say, look at me.
- [69:21]
Danielle
And it pissed me off.
- [69:23]
Zach
Yeah. Because now it's adding more cognitive labor to your load, which the original goal was to deal with.
- [69:31]
Danielle
But like he's acting like I'm torturing him by making him show.
- [69:35]
Zach
Yeah, yeah. And so then you're. Then also there's like an emotional aspect to it where it's like, do we have to be here and you're forcing the other person? So that's why I recommend that guys run them. I think that especially if we're not feeling confident in our home, which I think there's a lot of moments that I have like that far less today than previously. But it helped me gain a lot of my confidence back in our home. And knowing, looking ahead on the calendar, saying to myself, what's coming up? What can I be accountable for? What are the current minimum standards of care and fair play language and corporate language would be standard operating procedures. What, what are the expectations that we have when we wake up in the morning? What time do the kids. Or do we expect the kids to be woken up by? Is it between 5, 5 and 6 or is it between 6 and 7 for us, we talk about like the expectation is we feed the cats. I don't let the cats in. I usually am the first to wake up. I don't let them into the bedroom to wake up. Alyssa. We, especially during the season, let's actually called me out the other morning. She's like, it's too early to wake the goats up because there are more predators out. We have goats? Yeah, we get two.
- [70:51]
Danielle
Where do you live?
- [70:52]
Zach
Massachusetts.
- [70:54]
Danielle
Oh my goodness. That's cool.
- [70:58]
Zach
But yeah, so like she was like, there are much more bears out because they're getting ready for hibernation. Like, let's. And so we created the standard operating procedure of okay, we're going to wait an hour after sunrise. You should be able to see some kind of sun on the trees in the back before you choose to wake them up. And similarly, we have agreed to wake up our daughter between 6 and 6:30am so that she actually has a nap time during the school day. So yeah. Where was I going with this? Oh. So we start off with just creating the habits. Second piece is creating emotional safety. I know some people have a lot more work on that to do, but the huge part we talk about is those connection codes. Core emotion wheel. For a lot of guys, we just need to work on our emotional literacy. And ideally you're able to regulate the emotions first. Come to the meeting and do the wheel the way that we do the wheel typically is doing a quick two minute exercise where you're going through and saying the eight core emotions to each other. Sometimes you end up not purposefully weaponizing things, but you end up saying it hurt when you did that thing the other day and the other person's not ready for it. But ideally we're becoming emotionally prepared to receive and just hear the other person's experience. And then the third part is we start implementing those fair play minimum standards of care. So identifying the ones we've been working on in our house is our cleaning schedule. Around the. On the inside, we start working on the outside cleaning and maintenance schedule was the other one is our morning routine has shifted just a little bit.
- [72:38]
Danielle
Wow. Well, I mean, I can see why like the coaching is so good and I honestly wish that we had had it years ago because it really has, you know, it's even to know about the mental load and to think you get the concept is, is only the tip of the iceberg. And that's really, I think what, you know what, what so many, I think what so many couples are experiencing is that like it does. It takes a really fucking long time to unlearn what's been learned and that's really what this is. You know, the unlearning of these are what the roles and responsibilities are supposed to. To be. And realizing when it's all bullshit, you know, and unfortunately, a lot of times realizing too late. But, you know, but then there, there's hope also for, you know, for being able to fix it.
- [73:32]
Adam
No, I think this is so important. And like you said, I wish we had you to talk to 20 years ago, two years ago, two. Between two and 20 years ago, because. And I think this is probably true for a lot of people, and we've spoken so many times about this on the podcast. Danielle and I come from very different upbringings, very different traditional style upbringings. We both kind of expected the same when we got married, and that's how things were going to be. And nothing progressed and nothing changed, nothing merged all through the years. So it just became that built up frustration and built up, well, wait a minute, I grew up. And you don't do these things that happened in my household, and vice versa. And so here we are 25 years later, and it's starting to work out. No, but. But I assume you see a lot of that, right? I mean, that's where it all stems from.
- [74:30]
Zach
Yeah. And even Eve talks about in Fair Play is like, I think a lot of people are like accidental traditionalists where it's like they accidentally fell into these gender roles because there were. They weren't having, like, thoughtful conversations about it up front. I think there are a lot of moments where I expected to be a equal partner. You know, when I talked about not drinking with Alyssa, I remember my mom asked me right before, right before or right after we found out she's pregnant. And my mom was like, you're gonna be pregnant with her, right? I was like, yep. And to me, that just meant, like, doing all the stuff with her. Anything that she had to cut back on, I was going to cut back on. And like, I've. I feel like just from hearing that right there, that piece is like, I was clearly grown, grew up in a. In a home that respects women, and I still fell into a lot of the traditional ways. And I. I think the culture that we live in doesn't respect invisible labor. It doesn't, you know, the reason that maternity leave and paternity leave, like, are so small, the way that we're expected to go back to work two weeks later, the way that women are default, expected to change their lives around their kids before men are all those different, like, cultural expectations that we have, like, kind of force us into these ruts that we don't see that we're moving into. And I think it takes a lot of thoughtful, preventative, proactive conversations for us to actively stay out of those. That's why I call myself a recovering manchild is because recovering is like, it's a. It's a present tense experience. Like, just like alcoholics say that, you know, it's one drink can send them down a rabbit hole. Like, I feel very much like there's one chore that I could. I could miss or like something that I don't do could turn into me going into, like, rabbit hole of neglectful selfishness.
- [76:33]
Danielle
Wow. Well, thank you so much for coming on. And I mean, I love that you're doing this and I hope that, you know, it'll be a trend for more men to get involved because it's in a space that I think that needs a lot more attention than it's gotten over the past couple decades, even. So thank you so much, Zach. And tell everybody where they can find you.
- [76:58]
Zach
Yeah, I would say the main platform you guys can find me on is Instagram. Real Zach. Think Share. If you just search mentaload, you'll find me. You'll see a hundred women's faces and then my face 100 more times. But if people are interested in, like, getting, you know, practice what we did here with Adam, the Mental Load Basics is a free community on school. I'll share the link with you guys that every month I'm doing challenges. September, we did the challenge where you. You can score up to four points by just identifying instances of mental that your wife owns. The winner, we're recording in September, so we don't have a winner yet, but the winner can won a $200 gift card for a date night out. And then October, I flipped it and had it be all the men's load that the men own. And I invited women into to join that competition as well. I'm imagining November will likely be emotional labor. So I think it'll be. It'll be fun giving guys an opportunity to, like, speak it out loud and get feedback on how many points they get. So if you can earn up to four points, I think there's a lot of moments where they're saying domestic labor. They're saying, I did the dishes. And I'm saying that's not cognitive labor. That's. That's domestic labor. And them being like, thinking about the dishes and knowing that they need to get done because dinner's at 6:00. And so that needs to be done by 5:30. That's cognitive labor. So that is what I'm working on with those. Those folks in that community.
- [78:37]
Danielle
Awesome. Well, we'll put your links in the show notes and, you know, people can definitely go and look for you. And your videos are great. And thank you so much, Zach.
- [78:47]
Zach
Yeah, you're welcome.