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- [00:01]
IBM Representative
The thing about AI for business? It may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM, we've seen this firsthand, but by embedding AI across hr, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slash repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter Business IBM Sonesta Travel
- [00:31]
Sonesta TravelPass Announcer
Pass Makes traveling more rewarding Designed to help you get more out of every stay, sign up@sonesta.com to enjoy instant savings, bonus points and valuable perks like early check in, late checkout, room upgrades, and free stays. Over time. With Sonesta TravelPass, every stay brings you closer to your next reward. Choose from more than 1100 hotels across 13 distinctive brands and unlock the best available rates when you book direct with Sonesta TravelPass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now@sonesta.com terms and conditions apply.
- [01:06]
Wise Podcast Sponsor
This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the smarter way to manage your money internationally if you're getting a headache from juggling different currencies and different bank accounts in different countries, there's a better way to receive money in the currency you need without the slow transfer times or hidden fees. Meet Wise, the savvy way to handle your money internationally. Hold balances in up to 40 currencies with the mid market exchange rate on every conversion. Whether you're receiving payments from tenants abroad, earning as nomad, or converting dividends from your international investments, the Wise Multi Currency account is for you. Be smart, Get Wise, Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Terms and conditions apply Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio news.
- [01:59]
Barry Ritholtz
Won't get you too far. Get you too far Half of all marriages end in divorce. That's just as true for the ultra wealthy and celebrities as it is for the rest of us. Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Kanye West, David Geffen what happens when there are billions to divide? I'm Barry Ritholtz and on today's edition of at the Money, we're going to discuss the finances of divorce for the ultra wealthy. And full disclosure, I am not a billionaire and I remain happily married for 33 years. To help us unpack all of this and what it means for your portfolio, let's bring in Patrick Kilbane. He works at Omen Wealth Partners, where he is a CFP and General Counsel. He leads the firm's Divorce Advisory Group. So Patrick, the old joke is true. The wealthy are different than us. They have more Money, all kidding aside, just how different are billionaire or celebrity divorces from the run of the mill splits?
- [03:09]
Patrick Kilbane
Barry, first, thanks for having me. It's an honor to be with you. Believe it or not, celebrity divorces and billionaire divorces are not all that different. They may have more assets, more zeros in the bank account, more, more complicated assets. But what you really got to do is you got to take a step back and you got to figure out what you're dealing with. And then, you know, the, the biggest difference, I think, between a celebrity or a billionaire divorce versus, you know, the, the run of the mill divorce is the privacy issues that go along with that. And, you know, we can unpack that a little bit more, but I think that's a, that's a big non financial issue that we're dealing with in those cases.
- [03:54]
Barry Ritholtz
So you're talking NDAs and things along those lines for everybody involved.
- [04:00]
Patrick Kilbane
Well, NDAs, and depending on what state you're actually getting divorced in, there's open government and sunshine laws that can get access to the divorce files. And one of the things that I enjoy working on, the higher net worth and higher profile divorces is, is most of the time both parties to that case are very cognizant of that issue. So what we tend to do is we work very collaboratively and get everything settled and valued and tied up nice and neatly. And we are thinking away, we are thinking constantly about how to play keep away from the press.
- [04:38]
Barry Ritholtz
Really, really interesting. We mentioned people with a lot of zeros on their net worth. When you have ultra high net worth couple splitting, are the mistakes that they make more or less the same as what we see in normal divorces, or are there things that happen that, you know, are really problematic and potentially not reversible?
- [05:01]
Patrick Kilbane
Well, they are the same. The problem is a 1% tax mistake in your case or my case is magnified tremendously in that billionaire divorce case. So the mistakes are the same. The consequences are tremendously more consequential in that type of case. And then, Barry, what I found in these higher net worth cases, generally, you know, a young couple who starts making and earning and accumulating significant assets, they start doing what I call Estate Planning 2.0 or Estate Planning 3.0. Because as I tell everybody, there's two types of money problems. Too much and not enough. And these people have the too much problem. So they have very complicated estate plans that are designed to not be busted apart. So then you start saying, okay, you know, this is a couple that's been married 35, 40 years. They have slats and grats and Cuperts and these complicated estate vehicles. Well, okay, how do we separate them? What are the tax consequences as a result of separating or blowing apart that estate plan? And do we really want to do that?
- [06:23]
Barry Ritholtz
Really, really interesting. I was out with a couple of guys right before the holidays. One of them was divorced, and another person at the table mused, gee, I wish I could afford to get divorced. So I guess that's the too little money as opposed to too much money. But let's talk about the too much money. A lot of assets are not liquid. The headline value looks like it's really big. How do you figure out the difference between what something appears, the liquidity factors, and then, of course, you end up either with a concentrated position or a tax headache. If there's a liquidity event in sale for the, for the divorce, how do you navigate those areas?
- [07:11]
Patrick Kilbane
Excellent question, excellent points. So let's, let's think back to the financial crisis, 2009, 2010. The late Elaine Wynn and Steve Wynn were getting a divorce. And we think of Steve and Elaine Wynn, and we think about people that have tons of cash, cash flows, and a problem with, well, the Wynns had to liquidate shares of Wynn resorts to free up money for their divorce case. So if Steve and Elaine Wynn have to sell assets from a liquidity standpoint in a divorce case, you can imagine that other business owners may have to do the same thing. And then, like you said, maybe the couples are going through a business sale or there's some other liquidity events. So again, as I stated earlier, the great thing about these cases is generally people are motivated together to reduce tax liabilities and work together to maximize the size of the pie. And I think, again, in the billionaire celebrity divorce case, there's more motivation from both sides to do that.
- [08:17]
Barry Ritholtz
What do you do with things that are kind of hard to put a dollar number on? Carried interest, RSUs, restricted stock, even deferred comp or options? How do you navigate that?
- [08:32]
Patrick Kilbane
Sure. Well, there are all sorts of other professionals that are experts in placing a value on that. And then you got to step back and say, okay, what are my goals and what are my estranged spouse's goals? So all of the contingent assets that you just rattled off, they have some sort of expectation that you're still going to have to be linked together for some period of time in order to realize those assets. And, you know, maybe the person who's employed and is compensated in those, you know, alternative ways, they may not want to you know, have their, you know, former spouse contacting their human resources department or their executive compensation part. So then the question becomes, do we have enough liquidity to buy that person out? And what sort of risk premium are we assigning on carry that may actually not materialize? And are these assets, are they deferred, are they qualified, are they non qualified? What sort of growth rate do we model when we're coming up? Do we think that growth rate is fair? If we don't, then do we just say, okay, fine, I'm gonna roll the dice and I'm gonna, you know, I'm going to ride along and see what happens with the carry and whether it materializes or not. And then I think history is a good place to look to too. If, you know, we've been married for a significant amount of time, how have previous iterations of the funds done? And how comfortable do I feel about, you know, Kerry actually being there?
- [10:08]
Barry Ritholtz
You mentioned outside experts. How do you, as the advisor, coordinate with outside lawyers and accountants and estate attorneys? You're sort of trying to make sure the client isn't stuck as a project manager as they're undergoing this emotional, very emotional, potentially. I'm gonna say it again. They're undergoing a very emotional experience.
- [10:36]
Patrick Kilbane
Barry. It's not fair for the client to be the project manager. They're the ones who are leaning on professional advice. And I, having litigated for nearly a decade, I generally know all of the best of breed divorce lawyers in the area. And I'll lean on law school classmates to find the best of breed divorce lawyers all over the country. And the divorce lawyer is going to be the quarterback. I think it's very important to understand where the divorce is actually taking place so you can have a great expert witness. But if that expert witness is not known to the judge or, or they're just simply not able to communicate their work product and make the court understand what's going on, then they're not a very good expert. So I think you really have to know where you're at, know the experts that have significant experience doing this type of work. And then, you know, if that expert is well known to the court and to the opposing parties and they do sort of a B plus job, then maybe we need to sort of backstop them with that national expert that is really, really precise and really refined that can, that can help out so that, that situation. And you know, Barry, I, I said this to a client the other day. I'm sort of the offensive coordinator. I know enough to be dangerous I know, but I'm not in the business of giving out legal advice. If I wanted to do that, I would still be an advocate. But we work together. I make suggestions. The head coach, the lawyer has got to be the one who ultimately implements the plan.
- [12:12]
Barry Ritholtz
So I mentioned in our introduction Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates. It raises the question when you have highly appreciated founders stock at a very low cost basis and then all of the capital gains that come with getting liquid with that, when I look at folks like Larry Ellison or Bezos or Gates, they've let it run for so long. What we saw with Gates is he literally there was an $8 billion transfer of Microsoft stock before the sell off to Melinda Gates Foundation. What are best practices with dealing things like founder stock at a really low cost basis?
- [12:55]
Patrick Kilbane
Yeah, I mean, you hit on one of the strategies right away. If philanthropy or charitable giving is part of the problem, then we bring in an expert in talking about if a charitable foundation isn't set up, what's the best way to maximize gift to charity? And you hit the nail on the head. Donating appreciated stock to the charity to a charitable foundation to a donor advised fund is certainly a way to do that because as you know, you get the market value for the, the contribution of the stock. You don't have to worry about the capital gains tax. Neither does the charity. Everybody wins.
- [13:36]
Barry Ritholtz
We saw that with Bezos's wife also, right. He it was a big chunk of Amazon stock that went into her philanthropy. What do you do when it's not a public company? What do you have do when you have a highly valued private company? Things like tangible book value and goodwill, they're so squishy. How do you put a dollar value on that?
- [14:01]
Patrick Kilbane
Sure. We'll oftentimes bring in expert witnesses at valuing those privately held companies. And as you and I talked before the taping, Barry, there's two components to the value of a business. There's the tangible assets and the goodwill. Well, in the context of a divorce case, we have to drill down into the goodwill and we have to say, all right, what component of the goodwill is the enterprise goodwill? And then what component of the goodwill is attributable to the marital litigant? So let me give you an example. Let's say there's Barry Ritholtz Insurance Agency or there's State Farm Insurance where Barry Ritholtz is the registered agent. So if I live in some proximity to the State Farm office where Barry's the registered agent, maybe I'm going there because I know Barry, but more likely than not, I'm going there because of the brand State Farm, so there's more enterprise goodwill there. But if I'm going to the Ritholtz Property and Casualty Insurance up the street, it's probably because I rode the train into the city with Barry. Maybe Barry sponsored the little league baseball team. Barry was referred to me by somebody else that you helped who needed those products. So those are the issues that we have to get. And on my team, you and I and your listeners know how significant small businesses are to the American economy. Well, in the higher net worth cases, a lot of these families have small businesses. It's the biggest asset in the divorce case. So I found my business partner, Caitlin. She was working at a business brokerage firm. And I thought, man, this woman has great credentials, great presence. She has that business valuation expertise. So on my team, I have somebody who came from the valuation world to help the lawyers and our clients spot those business valuation issues because they are so essential to the divorce case.
- [16:04]
Barry Ritholtz
Since we're talking about ultra high net worth potential divorces, one of the things I was thinking about was liability protection. A lot of these families have umbrella policies. They have very specific lawsuits and potential liability they're trying to shield themselves from. How do you, how do you manage that throughout a divorce process?
- [16:25]
Patrick Kilbane
I mean, that's probably the most important question that you've asked me. We can divide, we can design the best portfolio, have a great asset allocation, have strategy to redeem company stock and dilute concentrated positions. But if you don't have the right protection in place, if you don't have an umbrella policy, if you don't have an umbrella policy, that is taking into consideration uninsured motorists. And I'm going to even back up before we even get to insurance and look at how assets are titled. So, Barry, I live in Florida, and Florida is one of the jurisdictions in the country where you can hold property as tenants in the entireties. And you know, most of the other jurisdictions you can hold property is joint tenants with right of survivorship. And I don't want to make this a law class. You're a lawyer. But tenants by the entirety means that you and your spouse own an undivided 100% interest in that asset. Joint tenants with right of survivorship means that Barry and his wife each own 50%. So if you're a tort feeser and you don't have an umbrella policy, I can go after 50% of your brokerage account. But if you hold it as tenants in the entirety. Then you and your wife have to be the tort feeser for me to, you know, try to go after those assets. What about titling cars? I mean, how many advisors are looking at how their clients title their car? You know, I'm dealing with a case right now where somebody that I know was killed by a 16 year old motorist. Well, the insurance companies are smart. They don't want to just title the car in the kid's name. Right. They'll charge a higher premium, you know, to make sure that either mom and or dad is also on the title. So, you know, they can have mom and dad's assets be, you know, used to satisfy a judgment. So I mean, these are all the things that I try to help people look at and say, hey, look, just by the way you title your assets, you can shield yourself from a potential liability.
- [18:29]
Barry Ritholtz
Final question. What are your thoughts on finding hidden assets and not just Swiss bank accounts, but other ownership of companies of real estate of what have you that perhaps one of the spouses is not fully aware of?
- [18:46]
Patrick Kilbane
Right. That's why tax returns and corporate tax returns and following the money and watching where it goes is so significant. You know, most of the time, you know, one spouse trusts the other spouse or has no dealings whatsoever with, you know, what's going on at work and the business accounts and so on and so forth. So it's really important. You talked about big money mistakes before you agree to a settlement. Get a CPA to help you sit down and take a look at the tax returns and see how the money's flowing. I mean, generally there are things on there that raise significant red flags which may make you want to pause and say, okay, I need to take a look at this. I need to look at the corporate bank accounts. How are these retained earnings consistent with other businesses in the same industry? Is this too much? Did the salary significantly change? Did distribution significantly change? How have the historical expenses changed right around the time that the divorce was starting to bubble to the surface?
- [19:53]
Barry Ritholtz
So to wrap up, billionaire divorces aren't all that different from run of the mill divorces. Sure, there are a couple more zeros at the end of the asset list and some complications, but generally speaking, the risks, the boxes you want to check, and the other issues that you're going to run through aren't all that different from traditional divorces. I'm Barry Ritholtz, you're listening to Bloomberg's at the Money.
- [20:30]
IBM Representative
So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now a global workforce of 300,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94% of common questions, not noise proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business.
- [20:59]
Sonesta TravelPass Announcer
IBM Sonesta TravelPass makes traveling more rewarding Designed to help you get more out of every stay. Sign up@sonesta.com to enjoy instant savings, bonus points and valuable perks like early check in, late checkout, room upgrades and free stays. Over time. With Sonesta TravelPass, every stay brings you closer to your next reward. Choose from more than 1100 hotels across 13 distinctive brands and unlock the best available rates when you book direct with Sonesta TravelPass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join now@sinesta.com Terms and conditions apply.
- [21:39]
iShares Representative
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- [22:06]
Dr. Guy Winch
For many men, mental health challenges aren't recognized until they've already taken a toll. Work pressure, financial stress, changing relationships, and traditional expectations around masculinity can quietly wear men down, often without clear warning signs. In season three of the Visibility Gap, Dr. Guy Winch and his guests explore how these pressures show up, how to spot them earlier, and how men can access meaningful support. Listen to the new season of the Visibility Gap, a podcast presented by Cigna Healthcare. These days, it seems like AI agents are just about everywhere you turn, every field and every function. But without identity, you can't trust they'll serve your business instead of jeopardizing it. Fortunately, Okta helps you get identity right by securing your AI agents identities, giving you a single layer of control, a single standard of trust. So whether an AI agent supports a single user or your entire enterprise, with with Okta, you'll turn risk into opportunity. Secure every agent, Secure any agent. Okta secures AI.
- [23:07]
Wise Podcast Sponsor
This podcast is brought to you by Wise the Smarter way to manage your money internationally. If you're getting a headache from juggling different currencies and different bank accounts in different countries. There's a better way to receive money in the currency you need without the slow transfer times or hidden fees. Meet Wise the savvy way to handle your money internationally. Hold balances in up to 40 currencies with the mid market exchange rate on every conversion. Whether you're receiving payments from tenants abroad, earning as a digital nomad, or converting dividends from your international investments, the Wise Multicurrency Account is for you. Be smart, Get Wise Download the Wise app today or visit Wise. Com. Terms and conditions apply.