Influencing Capital Allocation with Karin Risi

Summary

Masters in Business: Influencing Capital Allocation with Karen Reece

Podcast Information:

• Title: Masters in Business
• Host: Barry Ritholtz, Bloomberg Radio
• Guest: Karen Reece, Former Vanguard Group Executive, Board Member at HarborVest Partners
• Release Date: May 9, 2025

---

Introduction

In this insightful episode of Masters in Business, Barry Ritholtz welcomes Karen Reece, a pivotal figure from the Vanguard Group, currently transitioning to HarborVest Partners. With nearly three decades at Vanguard, Karen has been instrumental in driving initiatives, growth, and the development of new products, including the Vanguard RIA—an internal advisory service managing approximately $350 billion. Her journey offers a deep dive into working within a rapidly expanding organization renowned for managing trillions in assets.

---

Karen Reece’s Career Journey at Vanguard

Early Career and Education: Karen Reece began her career with a Bachelor's in Finance and an MBA from Villanova. Initially contemplating art school, her path shifted towards finance after working at Sunoco and then joining Vanguard in 1997 as an investment analyst.

“I initially actually wanted to go to art school. Little known fact.”
— Karen Reece [02:37]

Growth Within Vanguard: Karen’s 28-year tenure at Vanguard saw her rise through various roles, thanks to the firm's strong rotational culture. She contributed to corporate strategy, institutional and retail divisions, and ultimately led strategy, product marketing, communications, and investment product development.

“Throughout the 27 years though, I had, as you know, a bunch of different roles at Vanguard. Really strong rotational culture at the firm.”
— Karen Reece [06:31]

---

Vanguard’s Corporate Culture and Leadership

Leadership Influence: Karen discusses the influence of Vanguard’s leaders, including Jack Brennan, Bill McNabb, and Tim Buckley. She highlights Jack Bogle’s lasting legacy on the firm's ethos and her direct work with Brennan and McNabb, which significantly shaped her career.

“Jack Bogle certainly was out in the industry and vocal, but at the firm level you're right, we didn't do a lot of advertising.”
— Karen Reece [07:26]

Headquarters Location: Vanguard’s decision to remain headquartered in Malvern, Pennsylvania, rather than relocating to financial hubs like New York or Boston, has fostered a culture more reflective of "Main Street" than "Wall Street." This strategic choice has influenced the firm’s culture and talent acquisition.

“Our culture is really reflection more of Main Street than Wall Street.”
— Karen Reece [13:48]

---

Investment Strategies and Capital Allocation

Active vs. Passive Management: Despite Vanguard’s reputation for broad indexing, Karen sheds light on the company’s substantial active equity management, overseeing nearly a trillion dollars in active equity. She explains the distinction between Vanguard’s in-house active fixed income management versus externally managed active equity funds.

“For Vanguard, it means investment product development. So I had oversight of our 420 Plus. The number's probably even greater now. First mutual funds and increasingly ETFs.”
— Karen Reece [08:54]

Collaborations and Partnerships: Karen details Vanguard's partnerships with firms like HarborVest, enhancing their private equity offerings and democratizing access to alternative investments for retail investors.

“Vanguard continues to work with HarborVest, and now I'm looking forward to working with them in a different capacity.”
— Karen Reece [23:35]

---

Vanguard’s Response to Financial Crises

Leadership During the Financial Crisis: Reflecting on the Global Financial Crisis (GFC), Karen praises CEO Bill McNabb for his calm and reassuring leadership, which emphasized maintaining strategic priorities and investing in long-term goals.

“There was an explicit assurance that we were going to keep calm and carry on and really importantly, continue investing in our strategic priorities.”
— Karen Reece [17:22]

Impact of Cost Focus: Karen discusses the "Vanguard Effect," wherein the firm's relentless focus on low costs has saved investors significant amounts, fostering a client-centric approach that prioritizes expense ratios as a key factor in portfolio construction.

“We counsel our investors and our clients to focus on the things they can control and expense ratios... keeping costs low is something that Vanguard feels obligated to do.”
— Karen Reece [19:12]

---

Evolution into Private Markets

Diversification into Private Equity and Credit: Karen elaborates on Vanguard’s strategic move to include private equity and private credit in their offerings, aiming to broaden investment opportunities for mainstream investors. She emphasizes the importance of selecting top-quality managers at fair prices to maintain Vanguard’s low-cost reputation.

“I think investors should expect to pay more for a private equity offer or private credit offer... getting a top quality manager at a fair price.”
— Karen Reece [26:25]

Democratizing Access: She underscores Vanguard’s mission to democratize access to private markets, making these traditionally exclusive investments available to a wider retail audience.

“I think there's a place for private assets in that, but that'll be up to the current team to decide.”
— Karen Reece [27:24]

---

Leadership and Diversity Initiatives

Vanguard Women’s Initiative for Leadership Success (WILLS): Karen co-founded WILLS, an employee resource group focused on empowering women within Vanguard. This initiative, supported from the top down, aims to foster leadership and support diversity across various specializations within the firm.

“The importance of encouraging women and helping them develop into leaders at Vanguard... developing into the highest potential leaders.”
— Karen Reece [38:07]

Advice for Aspiring Women Leaders: Karen advises young women to take risks, develop and share their viewpoints, and proactively seek leadership opportunities. She emphasizes overcoming confidence gaps and being explicit about aspirations within the organization.

“Don’t be afraid to take a risk... develop a point of view and be willing to share it.”
— Karen Reece [39:22]

---

Philanthropy and Board Roles

Involvement with Vanguard Foundation and HarborVest: Karen discusses her roles on various boards, including the Vanguard Foundation and Vanguard Charitable, highlighting her commitment to philanthropy and community engagement. She is set to join HarborVest Partners’ board, continuing her influence in the private equity space.

“I'm going to be joining their board, really getting to know the firm in a different capacity.”
— Karen Reece [23:03]

---

Personal Insights and Recommendations

Mentorship and Career Development: Karen credits numerous mentors at Vanguard who shaped her career, including Jeff Molitor, Martha King, Jack Brennan, Bill McNabb, and Tim Buckley. Their guidance and advocacy were pivotal in her professional growth.

“I had a small stable of funds and now we have 400 different options. And I think it also led to the genesis of our personal advisor offer.”
— Karen Reece [33:03]

Books and Continuous Learning: Karen shares her favorite reads, including A Random Walk Down Wall Street by Burton Malkiel and Genius Failed by Roger Lowenstein, which provided foundational knowledge in passive investing and hedge funds, respectively.

“A random walk down Wall Street... a required reading on the benefits of passive investing.”
— Karen Reece [44:55]

Advice for Recent Graduates: Karen advises new graduates to prioritize the company’s mission and culture over job titles or salaries, contribute beyond their job descriptions, and invest in understanding the company’s history and context.

“Pay attention to the company and the mission and purpose of that company. Be proud of the company you work for.”
— Karen Reece [47:45]

Reflections on Financial Planning: She emphasizes the importance of living below one’s means, investing early, and taking advantage of compounding—a principle she learned from Vanguard’s leadership.

“Live below your means... invest in the 401 and take advantage of the company match and build up an emergency fund.”
— Karen Reece [48:58]

---

Conclusion

Karen Reece’s extensive experience at Vanguard offers a comprehensive look into effective capital allocation, the importance of low-cost investment strategies, and the evolution of investment products to include private markets. Her insights into leadership, diversity, and strategic growth provide valuable lessons for professionals in wealth management and aspiring financial leaders.

---

Notable Quotes

• Karen Reece [02:37]: “I initially actually wanted to go to art school. Little known fact.”
• Karen Reece [06:31]: “Really strong rotational culture at the firm.”
• Karen Reece [07:26]: “Jack Bogle certainly was out in the industry and vocal, but at the firm level you're right, we didn't do a lot of advertising.”
• Karen Reece [13:48]: “Our culture is really reflection more of Main Street than Wall Street.”
• Karen Reece [17:22]: “There was an explicit assurance that we were going to keep calm and carry on and really importantly, continue investing in our strategic priorities.”
• Karen Reece [19:12]: “Keeping costs low is something that Vanguard feels obligated to do.”
• Karen Reece [23:35]: “Vanguard continues to work with HarborVest, and now I'm looking forward to working with them in a different capacity.”
• Karen Reece [26:25]: “I want to know that I'm getting a top quality manager at a fair price.”
• Karen Reece [38:07]: “The importance of encouraging women and helping them develop into leaders at Vanguard.”
• Karen Reece [39:22]: “Don’t be afraid to take a risk... develop a point of view and be willing to share it.”
• Karen Reece [47:45]: “Pay attention to the company and the mission and purpose of that company. Be proud of the company you work for.”
• Karen Reece [48:58]: “Live below your means... invest in the 401 and take advantage of the company match and build up an emergency fund.”

---

Listen to the full episode on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, Bloomberg, or your favorite podcast platform.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Unlock Tomorrow's Potential with PJM Active ETFs Today, our ETF solutions meet investors evolving needs, leveraging 150 years of active investment experience and deep institutional knowledge across asset classes. With a diverse range of over 50 low cost ETFs, we help investors navigate today's changing market and position for the future. Pjum Our investments shape tomorrow today. Visit [e-mail] ETFs.

Hiscox Small Business Insurance Knows there is no business like your business. Across America, over 600,000 small businesses, from accountants and architects to photographers and yoga instructors, look to Hiscox Insurance for protection. Find flexible coverage that adapts to the needs of your small business with a fast, easy online', @hiscox.com that's his there's no business like small business. Hiscox Small Business Insurance.

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News.

[Barry Ritholtz]

This is Masters in.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Business with Barry Ritholtz on Bloomberg Radio.

[Barry Ritholtz]

This week on the podcast I have an extra special guest, the Vanguard Group's Karen Reece, the person who is responsible for so many initiatives, so much growth, so many new products, including the Vanguard RIA, the internal advisory service that runs $350 billion. This is a fascinating conversation. If you're at all interested in what it's like to be part of a fast growing organization that is racking up trillions of dollars in assets. What it's like to create new initiatives. Really, this is a tour de force conversation. She has just concluded about 28 years at Vanguard and is moving over to Harbor Vest, which is the outside private equity shop that Vanguard has been working with. I thought this conversation was fascinating and I think you will also, with no further ado, my conversation with the Vanguard Group and Harbor Vests.

[Karen Reece]

Karen Reece thanks for having me, Barry. I'm happy to be here.

[Barry Ritholtz]

I'm happy to have you. I want to talk about your time at Vanguard, but before I do that. Bachelor's in Finance, MBA from Villanova Finance always was the career plan. That's what it kind of looks like.

[Karen Reece]

Yes, I think it looks that way, but I'll say I got more intentional over time. Barry. But no, I initially actually wanted to go to art school.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Oh really?

[Karen Reece]

Little known fact.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Yes I did from Villanova. Do you go straight into the NBA or do you work and then go back?

[Karen Reece]

I worked for a few years at Sunoco in Center City Philadelphia and then I started my MBA there and then joined Vanguard and finished up my MBA in my first couple years at Vanguard Really?

[Barry Ritholtz]

So right from business school, and then the only company you've worked for since school is Vanguard. That's an impressive run. How did you find your way to Vanguard?

[Karen Reece]

Like so many people at Vanguard, I had a friend that worked there. So I was a couple of years out of school in investor relations at Sunoco. And then I had a friend who said, you know, if you want to get more into finance and investments, we have an opening at Vanguard. I think you'd really like it. And that truly is how I got into the interview process. I grew up in the area. I grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia, so I knew Vanguard.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Go Birds.

[Karen Reece]

Yes. But I didn't know really that much about it, and I only had one friend who worked there. But I went for the interview process and joined as an investment analyst in 1997.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So late 90s, Vanguard had to be a really interesting place. What was it like during that period?

[Karen Reece]

It was an interesting place. It was not an unknown like many of my retired predecessors are. When they joined Vanguard in the 80s, it was really off the radar. We were starting to gain traction. Indexing was starting to gain traction. The hiring classes were getting bigger. So I joined with, you know, dozens of other people when I joined Vanguard in May of 97, and, you know, we were still though this small, ish firm in Malvern, Pennsylvania, Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, very different from Wall Street.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So if you joined Vanguard in 97, Jack Brennan is CEO, is that right?

[Karen Reece]

That's exactly right.

[Barry Ritholtz]

It's a delightful, serious individual. And I find him, like every other prior CEO at Vanguard, fascinating guy.

[Karen Reece]

Yes, yes. And you're right, a serious individual. Yes. Jack was leading the firm by the time I got there in 97. But of course, Jack Bogle was still sort of around his present on campus. You know, his whole spirit looms large even to today.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And so if I memory serves, it was only a couple of years later Brennan kicked himself up to chairman and Bill McNabb comes in as CEO. So you worked with some really tremendous corporate leaders.

[Karen Reece]

I did. In fact, if you think about the CEOs at Vanguard, I had a really special opportunity to work directly for Jack Brennan just for one year on a special assignment, working on scalable advice, which will figure later into my career trajectory.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And.

[Karen Reece]

And then I worked directly for Bill McNabb, our next CEO. I worked for him in multiple capacities when he was running our institutional business. And then again, I worked for him directly as a member of the senior team when he was CEO. Similarly, Tim Buckley, our last CEO, worked for him in multiple Capacities. He ran our retail division and I was working for him at that time. And then I worked for him again when he took the CEO spot.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So you mentioned Jack Bogle. Did you get to spend a lot of time with him? Saint Jack is pretty legendary.

[Karen Reece]

He is legendary for sure. Not a lot of time. I never worked directly with Jack, but as I said, you know, I was working on the third floor of the Victory Building, which is where Jack still had his office for a time, and then he moved down to the second floor. So he was very present on campus in my earliest years at Vanguard, but I did not work with him directly.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So you were head of strategy, product marketing, communications. Like is that one job? Is that four jobs? Tell us a little bit about Your progression over 27 years through the leadership ranks at Vanguard.

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, what you just described was my final post at Vanguard and it was kind of like four jobs, but it was one assignment. Throughout the 27 years though, I had, as you know, a bunch of different roles at Vanguard. Really strong rotational culture at the firm. So I joined in the corporate division as an investment analyst. Then I moved to corporate strategy. Then I moved and I did probably a five year stint in a couple of different roles in our institutional division. And then I spent probably a dozen years in our retail division where as you mentioned, I ran the. Ultimately I ran the division, but I started in different roles in the division, particularly leading the advisory group before taking over. And then my final post before I retired at the end of last year was as you mentioned, strategy, marketing, global investment, product development, oversight of all of our external managers and then also corporate communication.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So let's, let's put some flesh on the bones. When I hear corporate communications, I think investor relations, public relations, just. And four, it's kind of interesting. For most of Vanguard's history, not a very aggressively public firm. Kind of a low key firm. Not that Jack was low key, but the firm itself wasn't doing the usual rounds. Isn't out there yelling and jumping up and down with their hair on fire, just very quietly, at least from my observation. Tell me if I'm wrong.

[Karen Reece]

No, I think that's a fair characterization. Jack Bogle certainly was out in the industry and vocal, but at the firm level you're right, we didn't do a lot of advertising. We, you know, we were quite happy to be in Malvern, Pennsylvania and sort of out of the limelight. That was intentional on our part, especially in the earlier years. I think over time we've gotten far more comfortable taking a stand and expressing our point of view. But by and large your characterization is fair. The corporate communications function at Vanguard today has evolved considerably from back in the early days. We now have a crisis communications function, certainly a well developed and global PR function, as well as all of the standard sort of corporate messaging and things that you would see on our digital properties.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Product development, that's such an ambiguous phrase. Tell us what product development means specifically at Vanguard.

[Karen Reece]

Of course, for Vanguard it means investment product development. So I had oversight of our 420 Plus. The number's probably even greater now. First mutual funds and increasingly ETFs. And we do, as you know, all of our passively managed products are managed in house by our investment management group. But our actively managed funds, or active equity funds, I should say we do active fixed in house. But our active equity funds are sub advised to a stable of investment advisors. And I had purview over that. My teams identified and then oversaw and built the relationships with each of those external advisors, firms like Wellington, Prime Cap, et cetera.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And a lot of people don't realize because you know, Vanguard and BlackRock are synonymous with broad indexing. But am I getting the numbers right? About 25% on the equity side is active or is it even higher than that?

[Karen Reece]

It's about probably just shy of a trillion dollars in active equity.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Uh huh. That's real money.

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, yeah, it's real money.

[Barry Ritholtz]

How many sub advisors are you working with and what is that process like?

[Karen Reece]

Well, today I think the number, it fluctuates a bit as we add managers to the stable and part ways with some others. But I think the high watermark was probably in the mid-20s. It's probably down to 22 or 23 now. You have to check with the team, but when I left I think it was about 22 or 23 different managers. And given the design of the product and the client need we're trying to meet, we look for the best possible active manager to fill that mandate.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So I didn't realize until you just said this earlier, all of the active fixed income is in house, but the active equity is external. What's the difference between the two for our audience? I think I have an idea of the difference in terms of active fixed income has certain attributes that active equity doesn't. But I want to hear it from you.

[Karen Reece]

Well, and maybe one minor clarification. Vast majority of our active fixed income is managed in house. Wellington does manage one or two active mandates for us still, legacy mandates like Ginnie Mae, et cetera. But really the difference being Vanguard chooses to manage funds in house, where we have the talent and expertise to do so. And active fixed income, our bond desk, is tremendously deep in talent. Greg Davis, who I know you've had on the show before, he's great. Yes, he is. He and his team have built out our fixed income capabilities over the years. And so we really are in a strong position to offer active fixed income across the range. And I think you'll see Vanguard leaning into our fixed income product lineup even more going forward.

[Barry Ritholtz]

At risk of oversimplifying this, it always feels like active fixed income. You can run a screen and screen out riskier product, riskier bonds, lower quality bonds, and that immediately accrues to outperformance. For an active bond portfolio, you could develop screens to select certain quality bonds that have certain return characteristics that you like. Am I wrong? And I always feel like I'm dumbing it down too much. It feels like you can do more on the fixed income side actively and generate a return for your effort, whereas it's so much harder to do that on the equity side.

[Karen Reece]

I think that's fair. And I think Sarah Devereux, who runs our fixed income shop at Vanguard now, would agree with you. I think there's a lot of opportunity that the team sees based on what's happening in the environment. And perhaps, I don't know. I'm not in a position to say relative to active equity. I don't know if our active equity managers would agree, but I know that Sarah's team would agree.

[Barry Ritholtz]

You mentioned that Vanguard is headquartered in Malvern, that it was a purposeful decision not to locate and headquarters in Boston or New York City. What are the advantages of that? How does that accrue to the culture?

[Karen Reece]

I do think it plays a big role in our culture, especially over decades. I think it's a big part of, in some ways, the talent we attract. There is a very purposeful decision on the part of most people in our industry to, in many cases, relocate their family to the suburbs of Philadelphia. Many of them are coming from New York or other areas. And you have to really buy into the mission and purpose of Vanguard and its company and its culture to, you know, make a consequential decision like that. And I think it speaks to the ability for our mission and purpose to resonate with top talent in the industry.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And to be fair, Philadelphia is a great American city.

[Karen Reece]

I agree.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Every time I've ever gone to Vanguard, I've always arranged a weekend in Philly. It's always a blast. The food is great, the History is great. It's not like nothing is New York. But I would put Philly and Boston, you know, absolutely on par in terms of hey, we have this great city right here.

[Karen Reece]

I would agree with you Barry, and I think from a vanguard culture perspective, it also allowed us to really instill in now 20,000 crew around the globe. But those of us in Malvern for sure, this notion that our culture is really reflection more of Main street than Wall street. You kind of hear that around Vanguard every now and then. And it speaks to the clients that we serve and the way we think about product development and all of the rest of it.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Really interesting.

[Industry Expert]

You know, ETF volumes tend to go up in a crisis situation. You know, when the going gets tough, they get going. Why? Because they are a source of liquidity when other things are not that liquid. Which is exactly why the SEC sort of sketched the ETF design out back in 1988 after the black Monday.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Hear more about the evolution of ETFs and their growing influence on portfolios. Tune in to PJIM's, the out thinking investor wherever you listen.

[Barry Ritholtz]

People endure presentations, but they engage With Canva presentations, you click through a normal presentation you impress with a Canva presentation. With Canva you can use AI to instantly elevate your presentation, generating slides and text in seconds with a simple prompt. Dynamic, visually imaginative difference making slides. Canva Presentations provides everything you need to build your deck. So you never need to switch between apps. Just focus on what you're doing. You can drag and drop images, graphics, charts and data from Canva's media library, or add animations and interactive elements to engage your audience. It's all right there for you. Canva makes collaboration simple too, and everyone knows presentations are a team effort. Comments, reactions and version control are designed to help teams work together better, working from stunning templates. You don't need to be a designer to make it look great. It's just a smarter way to build a better looking deck. You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your clients and co workers will too. Love your work with canva [e-mail] so.

I mentioned Vanguard is about to celebrate its 50th anniversary. By the time this airs, it's already have happened.

[Karen Reece]

That's right.

[Barry Ritholtz]

That's 1974 was when it was launched. That's an amazing run. 50 years. What does that mean to a firm the size of Vanguard?

[Karen Reece]

Oh, I think it's an important milestone, but it is a reflection of everything that Vanguard has been over the last 50 years. I think our culture, our mission, our purpose has been incredibly consistent from the top down, modeled by every leader. You mentioned the CEOs of Vanguard that you have already had the pleasure of talking to.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Got to get the new guy in here.

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, you got to get the new guy in. But there is just a remarkable consistency across what we try to do for clients and how our leaders express that and how our crew, you know, feel that and reflect that to our clients when they serve them every day.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So I'm gonna share a Bill McNabb story, which I'm sure you experienced, and I want to just get your reaction to it. He told the story here. During the financial crisis, he would occasionally plug into the phone system and listen to advisors speaking to clients. And not only were the clients freaked out, but you could hear people on the phone. They were a little nervous. All hands on deck, phone call. Hey, listen, we're going to come through this better than ever. Nobody's getting fired, nobody's getting laid off. Take a deep breath, go do your jobs. And suddenly everybody is just, you know, running on all cylinders. What was your experience during the financial crisis with McNabb at the helm?

[Karen Reece]

Very similar to what you just described and very consistent with how Vanguard approaches crisis. Really. I mean, the GFC was definitely qualified as a crisis for our firm and the industry and investors. And there was a calmness coming from Bill as the CEO, but also the rest of the leadership team and providing assurance to our crew. And you're right, there was an explicit assurance that we were going to keep calm and carry on and really importantly, continue investing in our strategic priorities. Where some firms were immediately pulling back after the gfc, Vanguard had the luxury of we are playing a long game and continuing. I recall Bill and the leadership team expressing to our crew at the time, we're going to continue to invest in our strategic priorities. We're leaning in really, and I think it had a very big calming effect on the crew.

[Barry Ritholtz]

That's how he told it. And I'm not surprised at your reaction. He. I mentioned Jack Brennan, Bill McNabb, another rock steady guy. That's whose hand you want on the tiller. You know, this guy isn't going to be rattled by a market sell off or a crisis. And that's. That's really fascinating. My colleague Eric Balcunas wrote a column which called the Vanguard Effect way back in 2016. And at the time, he ran the numbers and said Vanguard's low fee approach has saved investors either directly or through indirect fee pressure. $1 trillion. That was almost 10 years ago. I think we could ballpark it closer to $2 trillion. Tell us about the focus on cost and how that's impacted investors and the entire industry.

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, I'm not going to check your math on that, but I'll buy Eric's and your estimate there on what we've saved investors over time. And I think the focus on cost has been relentless. It's something that is in the fabric of the organization. We counsel our investors and our clients to focus on the things they can control and expense ratios, whether it's mutual funds or ETFs. These are things that are within and investors control and it helps them keep more of their return. It's part of our whole portfolio construction methodology. When we advise clients, it's one of the factors, not the only factor, and maybe not even the first factor. Barry. But certainly keeping costs low is something that Vanguard feels obligated to do Its now 50 plus million investors around the world. And the Vanguard effect, to use Eric's phrase, is real. I mean, we have seen that, particularly when we enter new markets outside the.

[Barry Ritholtz]

U.S. you see, you see fee compression immediately when Vanguard shakes everybody's cage. Yes, so, so it's funny because Eric eventually writes a book, the Boggle effect. You mentioned cost isn't the first principle. I kind of get the sense then of the things that you can control. It's being a long term investor and being a buy and hold investor. That wasn't popular when Vanguard launched in 1974, was it?

[Karen Reece]

No. Sometimes it's still not even popular today. But we've been pretty clear and steadfast in our view that investors should have a goal. They should be intentional about what they're trying to achieve, having some balance and diversification, being thoughtful about how you construct a portfolio and perhaps getting the help of an advisor to do that if an investor would benefit from that and really having the discipline, to your point, of sticking with it for the long term and understanding what your personal risk tolerance is, your investment time horizon and really thinking about how you're going to achieve those goals.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So I want to ask you a question and I'm very cognizant of the fact that you are no longer with Vanguard. We'll talk a little bit about where you've went. There has been in the industry as a whole, but surprisingly at Vanguard, also a move towards some privates, some alternatives. Tell us about this evolution.

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, I think it's an exciting one, both for the industry, but also for Vanguard. As you mentioned, we began offering in 2020, I think we began offering private equity fund to some of our retail investors. Those that were qualified for it was a first for Vanguard. But I would say the notion of broadening access to different types of investments for mainstream investors is not a first. I mean, it's what we did with mutual funds, it's what we did with ETFs. It's what we endeavor to do with advice. And so private equity is part and parcel, really of that advice offer for many of our advice clients. I think you'll see a lot more of that. In fact, there was subsequent to my leaving, there was a recent announcement that there is even another product that there'll be more information on with partnering with Blackstone and Wellington, which is pretty exciting.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And where did you end up shifting after 27 years?

[Karen Reece]

Well, I'm still making the shift. You know, I'm still kind of writing my next chapter, which is really exciting. But I will be joining HarborVest Partners board next month.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So May 1, you're at HarborVest. Vanguard did a, I want to say, experiments, which they've expanded, which was working with Harborvest, which, you know, maybe the layperson knows Vanguard, but they don't know Harborvest. They're one of the biggest private equity and private credit shops out there. Right. Tell us, what are you doing at Harborvest?

[Karen Reece]

Really excited to join Harborvest in May. I'm going to be joining their board, really getting to know the firm in a different capacity. When I was at Vanguard, of course, in 2020, we partnered with Harborvest. I oversaw the team that actually selected Harborvest among multiple managers that we considered for our first private equity offer for both retail and OCIO clients at the time. So multiple series or vintages of that fund have progressed. And Vanguard continues to work with Harborvest, and now I'm looking forward to working with them in a different capacity.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So. So this raises a fascinating question. There has been a giant shift from public to private assets over the past, you know, certainly decade or so. Not everybody can be in the top 10%, as the joke goes. But it seems like there's almost a land grab going on for the retail investor thinking about a traditional 60, 40 portfolio. Why should they also be thinking about adding a slug of private debt or private equity to their portfolio?

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, I think it's one of the next things that we as an industry, not just Vanguard, but more broadly advisors, have to help clients with retail clients in particular, who are used to, as you said, a conventional 60, 40 public portfolio. Really thinking about first, is there a role for privates in their portfolio construction and then if yes, if appropriate, then how they should integrate that into their portfolio and then which manager they should do that with. So it is a multi layered decision process and I think one that advisors can really help with. That's a personal opinion. I think advisors can help clients who maybe know a little bit about private equity but not enough or have heard about private credit and all of the press headlines that private credit is getting right now and really trying to figure out is this right for me and in fact can it generate excess returns well above public markets over time and is that something I should incorporate into my portfolio? I think that's a problem statement that many clients aren't even approaching yet but perhaps should, perhaps there is a spot for. And I think if you look at all of you called it a land grab. I think that's pretty fair. I think there's a ton of movement. Everybody I speak with, and probably those that you speak with too, are talking about democratizing privates. I think it's a trend right now, but I think in general it's something that should be here to stay.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So let me ask you two questions about that. An easy question and a hard question. The easy question is, hey, is this about non correlated diversified returns or is this about generating alpha and outperforming markets, public markets?

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, I think it can be both. It's a really good distinction. I think it can be both. It depends on your wealth level, it depends on how much of your overall allocation you're going to put into privates and then what type of private market asset class you're going to be working with. So yes, I think it can be an uncorrelated return opportunity and also an alpha generation opportunity.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So now the hard question. Vanguard built its reputation on low cost alternatives, have a reputation of being pricey. So how do you square that circle?

[Karen Reece]

I think it's going to be a matter of you pay different things for different asset classes and private market investing is different than public market investing. So I would imagine that investors should expect to pay more for a private equity offer or private credit offer. The key for me, and again speaking personally, would be I want to know that I'm getting a top quality manager at a fair price. I think giving a fair price is the obligation that the industry has to.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Investors and that's the vanguard culture even spilling over into private. So we've come to know Vanguard not just for passive, not just for indexing, not just for stocks and bonds, but generally a putting clients first a fiduciary approach to asset management. Is that consistent with some of the criticism we've seen of the alternative space? Or is it simply as much as not all alternatives are created equally?

[Karen Reece]

Certainly not all alternatives are created equally. I think you could say that for sure. And I think with regard to what Vanguard endeavors to do, it'll be up to the current CEO and his leadership team. But I would suspect that they will stay true to the notion of trying to provide clients with the best possible offers that meet their long term investing needs. And I do think that there is a place for private assets in that, but that'll be up to the current team to decide.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Really, really fascinating.

[Industry Expert]

You know, ETF volumes tend to go up in a crisis situation. You know, when they going get tough, they get going. Why? Because they are a source of liquidity when other things are not that liquid. Which is exactly why the SEC sort of sketched the ETF design out back in 1988 after the black Monday.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Hear more about the evolution of ETFs and their growing influence on portfolios. Tune in to PGym's the Out Thinking.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Investor wherever you listen People endure presentations, but they engage With Canva presentations, you click through a normal presentation you impress with a Canva presentation. With Canva, you can use AI to instantly elevate your presentation, generating slides and text in seconds with a simple prompt. Dynamic, visually imaginative difference making slides. Canva Presentations provides everything you need to build your deck so you never need to switch between apps. Just focus on what you're doing. You can drag and drop images, graphics, charts and data from Canva's media library, or add animations and interactive elements to engage your audience. It's all right there for you. Canva makes collaboration simple too, and everyone knows presentations are a team effort. Comments, reactions and version control are designed to help teams work together better, working from style stunning templates. You don't need to be a designer to make it look great, it's just a smarter way to build a better looking deck. You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your clients and co workers will too love your work with canva [e-mail] so.

I read a crazy stat that in the state of Pennsylvania, if you are a certified financial planner, 93% odds that you work for Vanguard. Can that possibly be correct?

[Karen Reece]

Again, I'm not going to check your stat, but I think yes. Having built out the Personal Advisor offer from the ground up and you know, passed it on to multiple of my colleagues since then. We're now well over, I think 1,000 advisors for sure. Wow. So it's possible. Luckily we have other domestic offices, not just Pennsylvania. There's also Charlotte and Arizona and Dallas. So we can, we can attract talent in the CFP ranks from multiple spots.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So I have to ask, you're working at this giant shop and you say, I know, let's build an ria, a registered investment advisory firm that's a fiduciary within a giant asset manager. Tell us about the genesis of this.

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, well, definitely not my vision alone. It was a firm wide kind of push for sure. We had been, this is going way back. We had been chasing scalable advice for decades. At Vanguard, we had an offer, very small relative to, you know, the firm size. At the time it was called Asset Management Services. The minimum was $500,000 to invest. You got a one on one dedicated advisor, much the same way you do today. And I think we charged back then, Barry, probably 90 basis points on the first million. Okay, great offer. Clients loved it. High NPS scores, but certainly not scalable. You know, we had a few hundred, fewer than 200 advisors really powering that offer and you know, fewer than 10,000 clients. So we knew that we had the ability to offer great advice using mostly Vanguard product at the core of the advice methodology at the time. And we wanted to scale it. But I credit really Jack Brennan initially for wanting that scalable advice. I mentioned at the top of the program that I had a special opportunity to work for Jack doing research, really kind of pulling together research and helping the senior team determine whether they were going to try to do this scalable advice offer. And there were multiple iterations before Personal Advisor. Personal Advisor, which we launched in 2015. That's the offer you just referenced. Well over 350 billion now serving hundreds of thousands of clients. It started with multiple iterations inside of Vanguard. So I think we had a couple of goes at it before we perfected what I had really the privilege to lead in 2015.

[Barry Ritholtz]

That's really fascinating. I know Vanguard has a direct indexing product now. It's kind of fascinating to look at all these different product lines and divisions because in the early days, Jack Bogle didn't want to do ETFs, didn't want to do international. Hey, we do one thing, we do it really well and everybody else can.

[Karen Reece]

Play catch up and you can add advice to that list. He didn't want to do advice either, really. In fact, oh, for sure. We had thousands of Frontline phone associates who were told do not use the word advice. There was definitely a very clear line between guidance and advice. And we were very careful to step back from the advice line, if you will.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So what's the difference between guidance and advice?

[Karen Reece]

Well, there is a regulatory difference for sure, and that's, that's what we were homing in on at the time.

[Barry Ritholtz]

But, but you have discretion, right?

[Karen Reece]

Yes.

[Barry Ritholtz]

You're fiduciaries.

[Karen Reece]

Yes.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So I don't see the difference. Listen, if you're giving your child advice or you're giving them guidance, maybe guidance is a little gentler.

[Karen Reece]

Yes, guidance is gentler. There is definitely a difference. But you know, I had in, earlier in my career, I led phone groups, you know, hundreds of phone associates and we would train them to serve the clients transactional needs and help them with guidance. But I cannot tell you in the same way that Bill McNabb would monitor phone calls, I would monitor phone calls when I was leading those groups. And so many clients just wanted to know which fund should I buy.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So what do you say?

[Karen Reece]

I had a small stable of funds and now we have 400 different options. And I think it also led to the genesis of our personal advisor offer because we realized there was an incredible pent up demand. People who had joined Vanguard, perhaps with a single mutual fund, maybe they started with a money market fund.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So totally self directed.

[Karen Reece]

Totally self directed is really the legacy of the firm. You know, we still have a much greater cadre of self directed clients than advised clients.

[Barry Ritholtz]

The vast majority of.

[Karen Reece]

Vast majority. Vast majority of clients.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Although I say this as an ria, I know the RIA side of the industry are big buyers and supporters of Vanguard products.

[Karen Reece]

Oh, for sure. I mean, I would acknowledge that the RIA channel for sure is. It's a totally different division at Vanguard, but it is absolutely critical to our success and growth over time. What we've been talking about is really that direct relationship when a client opens a mutual fund account directly with Vanguard and then that is essentially what I'm referring to as self directed. But in the same timeframe, we were growing our Financial Advisor Services division as well. And that is a critical component of what we do today.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And when this first rolled out, there was a little rumbling. I think Vanguard managed to thread the needle and say we're not offering advice, we're offering guidance and not exactly competing with that channel.

[Karen Reece]

Well, we were offering advice, but you're right that, you know, there was a little bit of needle threading to do. I think partially we were able to do that? Well, because there was so much internal collaboration across the senior leaders at the firm. First Martha King and then Tom Rampula ran the FAS division at that time. And when Tom took over, I was running the retail division. And there was a lot of discussion around, you know, what we needed to do to both serve RIAs really well through Tom's division and also be a growing and thriving RIA ourselves serving individual investors with our own advice methodology. And I think there's been a lot of collaboration between those divisions over time where we use research and the things that we learn through our investment strategy group or our, our in house research, we share that with the rias that we serve.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So here's a crazy stat I want to throw out at you. So total investable assets of stocks, bonds were not quite 100 trillion, but we're, it's not that far off in the United States. How is it possible that nobody in the RIA space has market share? You guys are $350 billion and it's.

[Karen Reece]

Like eh, well there are some pretty big and very strong independent RIAs and we serve a lot of them. They're clients of Vanguard's. But you're right, it's a fragmented market still. There's definitely a top tier for sure.

[Barry Ritholtz]

All right, but there's 10 firms with 100 billion, 200 billion and a ton of firms with 20, 40, 60 billion. And it's funny, when I discuss these numbers with family, they think 5 billion is a lot of money. I'm like, oh no, no, we're peons. They don't really know what trillions are. But why is the industry so fragmented?

[Karen Reece]

You know, I don't know what the why is behind that, but I can certainly say just in the time that I've left Vanguard, all of the conversations I've had around the industry, there is a ton of interest in and you see it yourself, all of the consolidation that is happening among all of those mid and smaller tier RIAs, you know, the larger firms, the top tier are either buying up those RIAs, there's consolidation across the industry. There's a lot of private equity money invested and investing, interested in investing more in the RIA space. There's just a ton of movement in wealth management, which I think is exciting and hopefully is good for investors.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And there's some crazy number. The average advisor's age is like 66. So there's a whole succession planning thing.

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, that's the other thing. You're right, the demographics, it's, you know, lots of RIAs are, you know, looking to turn over their book and they don't have a strong succession plan.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Huh. That's really fascinating. So one of the things you launched at Vanguard, there's so many different initiatives you did, but the Vanguard Women's Initiative for Leadership Success. Tell us a little bit about that. What led to this project and what have the results been?

[Karen Reece]

They call it WILLS internally at Vanguard. And you're right, it's the Women's Initiative for Leadership Success. It was split, spearheaded under Bill McNab's leadership. And I mention that because it is so important that, top down, the CEO made it a priority. And I think that's why it continues to thrive today. I had the honor of being one of the founding leaders of our wills initiative more than 15 years ago at this point, but it's still an incredibly important employee resource group within the firm, and it was the first of several. So we probably have half a dozen or more different employee resource groups now. But the importance of encouraging women and helping them develop into leaders at Vanguard, and I use the term leader broadly, so leader of people, but also specialists in portfolio management or legal or data analytics, you name it. So there's just been a lot of evolution over time, but that consistent drumbeat of helping our women develop into the highest potential leaders that they could be at the firm in whatever area of expertise they were best suited to.

[Barry Ritholtz]

What sort of advice would you give to a young woman aspiring to a leadership role in the world of investing in finance?

[Karen Reece]

I think particularly about the advice and counsel that I have given to many younger women in the organization. I often will say, don't be afraid to take a risk. You know, do the work, develop a point of view, have your own point of view and be willing to share it. That's, you know, there's often a confidence gap. It's not an aptitude gap, but men.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Blunder in regardless of their competency. Women are much more circumspect. Pardon me for mansplaining sexism, but. But like my observations have been, man, as a, as a dude, I'm out over my skis. I have no radio training. What am I doing here? And I've noticed since I've been doing this that men just seem to be, we are blithe idiots stumbling into things. And women seem to be more thoughtful and circumspect.

[Karen Reece]

Those are your words. So I'll just say yes. I find many times men are infinitely comfortable sharing their point of view regardless. Yes. But I think women can often use some encouragement to One, do the work, develop the point of view, right, that there is work to be done. But once you have a point of view, take a risk and share it and know that it's okay when you are wrong. You will be wrong. I think there's often a fear of the criticism that will follow when you express your point of view. And I think a lot of the counselors develop the point of view, take the risk, because no one will know you're in the room until you open your mouth. And related. But perhaps a little different than that, I would give the advice to women who are looking for expanded leadership opportunities or more responsibility to be explicit in asking for it. And that's also something that you hope you keep your head down and do the work and you get noticed and you get chosen for the special project or the next assignment or the rotation. And often you're just not top of mind and that's okay. So you have to be more explicit about expressing your interest in taking on more responsibility, expanding your remit within the organization, or getting on some research project. You have to tell people that you're interested in doing more than you've already been asked to do.

[Barry Ritholtz]

So let me throw you a curveball. You served or you are serving as a director on the Vanguard foundation board?

[Karen Reece]

I did serve as a member of the Vanguard foundation board when I was at the firm. I also served as a member of the Irish Funds board and I also had the opportunity it's separate from Vanguard but related. I also served on Vanguard Charitables board for a number of years. So all of those through different lenses were opportunities outside of my day to day swim lane or job, if you will, to give back to either the community with regard to the Vanguard foundation or get involved in our international business through our Irish funds distribution through that board. Or in Vanguard Charitable's case, really think about donor advised funds and learn more about that and how.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And that's a big. That's like 18, 20 billion dollars, something like that. That's a big chunk of money that people are saying help us distribute this philanthropically.

[Karen Reece]

Exactly right.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Huh. Quite fascinating. All right, let's jump to our favorite questions, starting with what are you watching these days? Or listening to what's keeping you entertained.

[Karen Reece]

On the what am I watching? I would say hacks is you like it? Oh, I love it.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Not only do we love the show, but we watch it straight. You know, at the end there's a little podcast discussion.

[Karen Reece]

Yes.

[Barry Ritholtz]

By the showrunners and the creators and they're just charming, delightful people yeah, yeah.

[Karen Reece]

For those that don't know, I think it's. It's worth a. It's very different from anything you see on TV right now. Jean Smart is, you know, talk about longevity in a career. She's in her 70s. I love seeing that. And it's just a darkly funny, you know, mentorship between one character and a much younger character. It's a good one.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Tell us about your mentors who helped shape your career, man.

[Karen Reece]

Too many to count at Vanguard. Really. Just spoiled with lots of great leaders, all of whom were mentors in different ways. Particularly in the very early days of my career, people like Jeff Molitor taking a chance on me, giving me my first job at Vanguard when I was not an obvious choice, really helping me develop a thick skin. He was notorious for giving very straight feedback. Martha King, I mentioned her earlier. Just one of my earliest female role models at the firm, when there really weren't that many. There still are not enough across the industry, but many more today than back in the late 90s. And then certainly I mentioned. I've already talked about Jack Brennan, Bill McNabb and Tim Buckley. But certainly Bill McNabb and Tim Buckley for sure, figure prominently in my career as advocates for me over decades. They are still to this day, as I think about writing my next chapter and what I want to do post Vanguard. I still am looking to the mentorship and advocacy of both Bill and Tim. So very grateful for them both.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Really, really interesting list. Let's talk about books. What are some of your favorites? What are you reading currently?

[Karen Reece]

Well, favorites for sure. You can't spend 28 years at Vanguard without the required reading. A random walk down Wall Street, I think was dropped on my chair, truly within the first month of my joining the firm. One of my.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Burton Malky.

[Karen Reece]

Yes. Bert Malkiel, who was a board member on the board. Yes. Longtime board member at Vanguard, but really a required reading on the benefits of passive investing. And when I joined Vanguard, I knew about indexing, but I didn't know it to the depth that I would later. And so that was an early educational book, probably in the same era when Genius Failed is a figure.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Roger Lowenstein.

[Karen Reece]

Yep. Roger Lowenstein and the Rise and Fall of Long Term Capital Management. Think about when I joined Vanguard in 97. That was all unfolding in the early 2000s. I didn't know anything about hedge funds. I didn't know anything about leverage, really. I mean, it was so far afield from what was happening in Malvern, Pennsylvania, that it was just like a fascinating read. And really a cautionary tale that for.

[Barry Ritholtz]

The financial crisis not but a decade later.

[Karen Reece]

Correct.

[Barry Ritholtz]

All those lessons were totally ignored. If anything, maybe it made people too cocky. Don't worry about it. The Fed is. The Fed puts.

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a fair point. What am I reading now? I just finished and I'm like way behind the times because a million colleagues had suggested I read Outlive by Peter Attia. You know, it's been on bestseller list for multiple years now. Yeah, but, but fascinating to think about the longevity and the, the notion of health span versus lifespan looking, you know, inwardly for each person. I have some work to do to, to live to 100, but I'm game for it. And the book on my shelf next is related to that and it's called the longevity principle. And that takes sort of a broader view of how society will need to change to support from an infrastructure, healthcare, financial sector, all these different dimensions that will need to change to support all these people who will be living to maybe 100 in the future and not that far away.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And the conversation, the way the math works, if you make it into your 60s without dropping dead of a heart attack or whatever, the odds of hitting mid-80s or beyond go up dramatically.

[Karen Reece]

Yes.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And so suddenly the question is, hey, have I saved enough money if I'm going to be around to 85, 90, it's a genuine planning issue for anybody thinking about their financial future.

[Karen Reece]

You're right. I remember when we first started the personal advisor offer and we were creating the advice methodology, we conservatively, you know, our planning Horizon was to 100 years.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Well, every Monte Carlo simulation it goes to 100.

[Karen Reece]

Yes. And I cannot tell you how many clients at the time said, that's insane. I'm gonna drop dead at 70 or 80 or whatever. And they would fight with us. And now it's, you know, it's not inconceivable.

[Barry Ritholtz]

That doesn't surprise me at all. Our final two questions. What advice would you give to a recent college grad interested in a career in wealth management or personal financial guidance?

[Karen Reece]

I would say for sure, pay attention to the company and the mission and purpose of that company. Be proud of the company you work for. Worry about that more than the job or the starting salary. Think hard about the company that you want to connect yourself with. I mean, it's unlikely that many college grads are going to have a 28 year run at a company like I just did. But even if you're only going to be there for a shorter stint, think about the company ahead of the actual job you're going to do. Because my next piece of advice is do more than is asked. Think about how you can contribute outside of your finite job description. Lastly, I would say seek to understand the context. When you join a company and you're right out of college and you're eager to make a mark, I think it's really important to understand what came before you. You know, take the time to invest in relationships with your peers and understand the context of what's going on at the firm and the history behind it before you charge into whatever you're going to do.

[Barry Ritholtz]

And our final question, what do you know about the world of wealth management and investing today that would have been useful in 1997 when you were first getting your feet wet?

[Karen Reece]

Yeah, well, again, here I feel like a bit of a ringer because not many 23 year olds have the benefit of people like Jack Brennan or Bill McNabb, et cetera, telling them explicitly. I remember sitting in the office with Jack Brennan and he said, all you need to do is live below your means. And it was something that Jack Bogle used to say all the time. And it was instilled in you the minute you got into Vanguard, along with things like invest in the 401 and take advantage of the company, match and build up an emergency fund and all these things that are the basic tenets of financial planning. But when you're in your early 20s, you know, you don't necessarily focus on. These are things that I actually 28 years later have benefited from because the magic of compounding was a very real thing that I was able to take advantage of before. Perhaps many of my peers who were working at different companies where that wasn't such a strong focus, but at Vanguard, such a strong focus.

[Barry Ritholtz]

Well, thank you Karen, for being so generous with your time. We have been speaking with Karen Reisi, formerly of the Vanguard Group, now on the board of Harborvest. If you enjoy this conversation, well, be sure and check out any of the 550 we've done. You can find those at iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, Bloomberg, wherever you find your favorite podcast. And be sure and check out my new book, how not to Invest. The Ideas, Numbers and Behaviors that Destroy wealth and how to Avoid them. How not to Invest at your favorite bookstore today. I would be remiss if I did not thank the crack staff that helps put these conversations together each week. John Wasserman is my audio engineer. Anna Luke is my producer. Sean Russo is my researcher. I'm Barry Ritholtz You've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

[Advertisement Announcer]

Hiscock Small Business Insurance knows there is no business like your business across America, over 600,000 small businesses, from accountants and architects to photographers and yoga instructors, look to Hiscock's insurance for protection. Find flexible coverage that adapts to the needs of your small business with a fast, easy online'@hiscox.com that's his c o x.com there's no business like small business. Hiscox Small Business Insurance Time is precious.

[Podcast Announcer]

And so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and followers for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care. You're listening to an iHeart podcast.