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- [00:00]
Canva Representative
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BetterHelp Representative
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Canva Representative
People turn the TV only looks just like the window.
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BetterHelp Representative
Yeah.
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Matt Hogan
Agents.
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Canva Representative
What's the point of even sleeping if I can't show? If you can see me, what's the.
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Matt Hogan
Point of doing anything?
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Barry Ritholtz
What's going on with the technology underlying cryptocurrencies? What is Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies and what are their future? I'm Barry Ritholtz and on today's edition of at the Money, we're going to discuss all sorts of cryptocurrencies to help us unpack this and what it means for your portfolio let's bring in Matt Hogan. He's the chief investment officer at Bitwise Asset Management. The Firm runs over $10 billion in clients crypto assets. So, Matt, let's start with a really basic question. What is Bitcoin? What is Ethereum, and what use cases do these coins have?
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Matt Hogan
Oh, amazing. Well, it's great to be here. You know, Bitcoin is a crypto asset. The way I think of it is the first way that investors can store wealth in a digital format without relying on any government or any bank. It's built on a major technical innovation called the blockchain, which took 40 years to develop trying to figure out how to make this possible. Bitcoin broke through that in 2008, 2009, and it's been gaining steady adoption ever since. Ethereum is something more complex than Bitcoin. If you think of Bitcoin as digital money, you can think of Ethereum as making money and compute programmable in a public setting. And you can build applications on that. You can build smart contracts, you can build stablecoins, you can build other applications. I think it's a very exciting technology. But you can think of Bitcoin as digital money, Ethereum as sort of public compute and programmable money, and you'd be pretty close to reality.
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Barry Ritholtz
So you mentioned smart contracts. I'm kind of fascinated by that. When we were talking about this a few years ago, the idea for smart contracts for concert tickets had come up where, hey, Taylor Swift is unhappy that in the US Scalpers are buying up their tickets, keeping them away from the fans and selling them for $5,000. If we were to put Taylor Swift contracts on Ethereum, she could sell her tickets at $50. And whoever buys them, if they want to resell it at a higher price, she says, great. This contract says, I get half of that. And so the idea is to encourage it going to fans and making it less profitable for scalpers. But even if they do scalp it, well, then the artists themselves get it. How realistic are applications like that? And when might we see something along those lines?
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Matt Hogan
I love it. It's all going to happen, Barry. I think they're all realistic. Crypto enables frictionless programmable money. So what you're raising there is an example of allowing money to be programmable. It's not just concert tickets. You could say the same thing about art. Artists are always upset that they sell their art and then it 100 x's in price and they don't benefit from that directly. And so this idea of attaching revenue streams Downstream from it is something that you can do easily in the blockchain setting. The natural question is why hasn't it happened? Right. If we were talking about this two years ago and it's such a great idea, why hasn't it happened? And there are two reasons for that. One is that crypto has had a regulatory cloud hanging over it. The SEC has been launching lawsuits against crypto. There was concerns in Congress, a senator was building an anti crypto army. If you're a mainstream corporation, are you going to build a new business in an area where a senator is, is building an army to crush you? You're not. So we didn't see any of that. The second is that blockchains were slow and costly until about a year ago. Sort of. We've gone through in blockchains what we went through going from dial up to broadband Internet. Now we have highly performant, low cost blockchains that can perform a lot of transactions and we have a positive regulatory environment. I think you're going to see a flowering of a million use cases over the next two or three years in crypto. They're going to blow people's minds. I think they're going to go mainstream. You're going to be using crypto apps without even knowing it. And I think people haven't woken up to that reality yet.
- [06:42]
Barry Ritholtz
So you're really suggesting where like 1993 in the Internet, is that, is that a good frame of reference?
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Matt Hogan
That is exactly right. And you're seeing these crypto apps pop up and break through people's consciousness. A good example was polymarket during the election.
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Barry Ritholtz
Oh sure.
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Matt Hogan
Everyone was looking at polymarket for the prediction odds on who would win the presidential election. It was, it was in the Bloomberg terminal, right. The data from it, that was a crypto app. It could only be built on crypto. Crypto enabled it to happen and yet no one was talking about that. So yeah, it's 1994, 1996 in the Internet. We're starting to see a few examples. Yahoo's jumping up, you know, email is jumping up, Hotmail is happening. But it hasn't gone mainstream yet. It's about to.
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Barry Ritholtz
So it sounds like there are a lot of new use cases for things like Ethereum. Give us some other examples because you're obviously much more knowledgeable about this than I am.
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Matt Hogan
Stablecoins are one of the great killer apps to develop in crypto. A stablecoin is a money market fund, but on a blockchain, right. It's a way to access dollars on A blockchain. So why is that a killer app? There are two reasons. One, it puts a US bank account at the fingertips of anyone with a cell phone anywhere around the world. And if you're in Argentina or you're in Turkey and you can't easily access a US dollar bank account, but your currency has high inflation, you're going to want access to stablecoins that's built primarily on Ethereum. If you're in a sub Saharan Africa, there's a company called Yellow Card that's using stablecoins to do country to country payments between business entities. It's growing at an exceptional rate. The US Dollar is a phenomenal tool and most people don't have access to it. Stablecoins make that instantly accessible globally. And so I think that's a good example of how crypto can really go mainstream at a very fast rate.
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Barry Ritholtz
So let's talk a little bit about security. I recall 10 years ago, crazy numbers, something like a lot of hacks, a lot of thefts. And, and we talked previously about passwords. Something like 20% or 25% of all bitcoins have been lost because the owners either misplaced the, the drive it was on or misplaced the password. That sort of security issue seems to have been taken care of as this has become financialized. And you can buy coins in ETF fashions. Tell us a little bit about custody and security of, of crypto assets.
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Matt Hogan
Yeah, I mean, it's worth noting those, those stories always sound so ridiculous. How could these crazy people lose their password? It's now worth a billion dollars. But remember, at the time it wasn't worth a billion dollars, it was worth a few bucks. Right. Somebody bought two pizzas for 80,000 Bitcoin. That's now worth a billion dollars. I sure hope they were good. But, but, but, you know, you have to think back to then when Bitcoin was trading for a few cents. People weren't as careful as they would be today. But the technology has improved exponentially. Now the way most people custody their Bitcoin, their Ethereum, their other crypto assets is through regulated, qualified custodians with insurance from leading insurance providers who have been doing it this for years and have hundreds or thousands of people who help manage that securely. And the track record for those qualified custodians is sterling. And so I think it's really improved sort of exponentially.
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Barry Ritholtz
And to give you a sense of how long that's been going on, in November 2017 there was literally an episode of the Big Bang Theory. Where they talked about mining coins and putting it on a drive that subsequently got lost. And back then in 2017, it was, you know, tens of thousands of dollars. Today it's, it's a whole lot more than that. So I keep hearing from some skeptics who are saying this is a bubble. All these cryptocurrencies are just speculative excess. How do you respond to that?
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Matt Hogan
Well, you know, they may be right, of course, that's what makes a market. But many of the smartest investors in the world are allocating to bitcoin and crypto. Stan Druckenmiller is allocating to crypto. You know, Abby at Fidelity is allocating to crypto. BlackRock is building a huge business in this. 60% of the world's largest hedge funds have a position in Bitcoin. It may be that those people have a right point of view as well. When I look at crypto today, it looks to me like a technology that is just crossing the chasm from early adopters to mainstream and is yet to gain that sort of mainstream attention. But long term, it's not at a mature state. Right. Bitcoin is not standing shoulder to shoulder with gold. Ethereum is not standing shoulder to shoulder with Amazon Cloud Services. We think of them at a discounted level until they're standing shoulder to shoulder. I don't think we've reached maturity or bubble level and I think we're getting there, but I don't think we're there yet.
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Barry Ritholtz
So let me ask you a two sided question and you can ask answer them both. What do the skeptics not understand about crypto generally? What do you think the advocates either get wrong or overemphasize?
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Matt Hogan
What do the skeptics not understand is a really great question. I think many of them are anchored on the first time they heard about bitcoin. And something that crypto needs to admit is the first time many people heard about bitcoin or crypto was in a negative light. Maybe it was FTX, maybe it was the collapse of Mount Gox in 2014, maybe it was Silk Road and illicit use. And the problem is from a psychological anchoring perspective, they have such a negative first take on bitcoin, they're not able to evaluate it properly. They still consider things like what about the illicit use of bitcoin? Well, the Department of Justice has come out and said that bitcoin's illicit use is so small that. And it's not worth monitoring, it's much lower than it is for cash. So I think many of the skeptics don't evaluate where the data is today because they're taking a 2022 or 2018 or 2014 view of Bitcoin and crypto.
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Barry Ritholtz
I mean, we've seen some pretty extreme forecasts on prices that, that, you know, kind of raise red flags when people are talking about, you know, a million or 5 million as a bitcoin target. It seems like they're trolling us a bit.
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Matt Hogan
It does seem like they're trolling us a bit. I think they underestimate the efficiency of markets and the ability of markets to accurately value what an asset is. Just because bitcoin has gone up in the past and crypto has gone up in the past does not guarantee that it will go up in the future. And there are significant, foreseeable and unforeseeable risks in the future that we should think about. Their regulatory risks, their technology risks, their adoption risks. And I think there's probably just too much sort of assumption that there is a manifest destiny of bitcoin going to a million. There is no such guarantee in the market. There's always risk.
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Barry Ritholtz
Well. Well, the trend is, your friend, that. That's the old trading desk statement. So that, that leads to a really interesting question. Are these coins an investment or are they a speculation?
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Matt Hogan
Yeah, they're absolutely an investment, and some of them have elements of speculation. Let me give you an example of bitcoin. I think when you're investing in bitcoin, Barry, you're making two bets. One, you're making a speculative bet that bitcoin will stand shoulder to shoulder with gold as a store of value asset. Right now it's about 10% of gold. You're saying, I think it'll be 20, it'll be 30, it'll be 40, it'll be 50, it'll be a hundred. The second bet you're making is that the US government has $36 trillion of debt and is printing another trillion every 90 days. The store of value market is going to become more valuable in the future, and bitcoin is a piece of that. To me, that's a fundamental bet. And the other one is a speculative bet about it maturing. The reason bitcoin's performed so well over the last handful of years is both of those have come true. And if you have two bets that are both coming true, you know, it's not one plus one, it's two times two equals four. It's. It's sort of an exponential bet. So there's elements of speculation, but there are elements of fundamental investing behind these crypto assets as well.
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Barry Ritholtz
So to wrap up, investors should pay attention to the various coins, in particular Bitcoin and Ethereum. As a new technology that is crossing the chasm from early adopter towards mainstream investing, it doesn't mean that you outsize your position. It doesn't mean that you oversize holding Bitcoin. Think about this as a new technology that is starting to be adopted more broadly in the world of both finance and technology and try and you know every beer commercial ends with Drink responsibly, invest responsibly. If you want to take a few percentage of your portfolio and throw it into a Bitcoin etf, there's nothing terrible about that. You just don't want to go hog wild and get sucked into the bubble mentality. That's where people run into trouble. Thanks Matt. This has really been interesting. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You've been listening to Bloomberg's at the Money.
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Matt Hogan
If I can't show it, you can't see me.
- [16:38]
Canva Representative
Watch me to breathe. There are presentations and then there are Canva presentations. With Canva, you can use AI to take your presentation to the next level. You can generate dynamic slides and text with a simple prompt. You can drag and drop graphics and charts from canva's media library and add interactive elements to plus up your deck. And with collaboration tools built in, the whole team can work together better. You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your clients and coworkers will too love your work with canva presentations@canva.com Thrivent can.
- [17:14]
Matt Hogan
Help you plan your finances for the people, causes and community you love. What makes Thrivent Different? Financial services and generosity programs are combined to help you build a financial roadmap for the future, while also creating opportunities to give back along the way.
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Barry Ritholtz
Visit thrivent.com to learn more.
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BetterHelp Representative
Where Money Means More this podcast is supported by BetterHelp, offering licensed therapists you can connect with via video phone or chat. Here's BetterHelp head of clinical Operations Jesu Jo discussing who can benefit from therapy.
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Jesu Jo
I think a lot of people think that you're supposed to be going to therapy once you're like having panic attacks every day. But before you get to that point, I think once you start even noticing that you feel a little bit off and you can't maintain this harmony that you once had in relationships, that could be a sign that maybe you want to go talk to somebody. There's always a benefit in talking to someone because we can all benefit from improved insight about ourselves and who we are and how we behave with other people. So if you're human, that's like a good indicator that you could benefit from talking to somebody.
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BetterHelp Representative
Find out if therapy is right for you. Visit betterhelp. Com today. That's betterhelp.
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Jesu Jo
Com.