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- [00:01]
Bill Arts Ronian
I'm Hannah Fry and I'm on a.
- [00:02]
Barry Ritholtz
Mission to find out about a mysterious day called Q Day, which experts think could be the moment our most precious encrypted data is suddenly at risk. Learn more later in the podcast.
- [00:19]
Ryan Reynolds
So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.
- [00:45]
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half the price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.
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Bill Arts Ronian
So that means half day.
- [01:05]
Ryan Reynolds
Yeah, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch up.
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Bill Arts Ronian
Front payment of $45 for three month.
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Barry Ritholtz
Plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months.
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Bill Arts Ronian
Only speed slow 135 gigabytes of network.
- [01:13]
Barry Ritholtz
Busy taxes and fees extra see mint.
- [01:15]
Bill Arts Ronian
Mobile.Com.
- [01:17]
Barry Ritholtz
Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch, you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care. Go to Dutch.com to get vet care that is always there for just $92 a year.
- [01:57]
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News.
- [02:03]
Ryan Reynolds
They'Re.
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Barry Ritholtz
Filling bombs while our schools are falling.
- [02:08]
Ryan Reynolds
Tell me what in the hell we're paying taxes for. Well now what are we all stop paying taxes now what if we all stop paying taxes? Stop paying taxes y'.
- [02:23]
Bill Arts Ronian
All.
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Ryan Reynolds
It's that time of year year. You still have Christmas gifts left to buy, but you have to be aware that April 15 is just around the corner. Consider this your nudge that you have less than three weeks to make whatever year end tax moves you're planning for the calendar year 2025. I'm Barry Ritholtz and on today's edition of @ the Money, we're going to discuss the moves investors should be thinking about in order to reduce their 2025 taxes to help us unpack all of this and what it means for your money. Let's bring in Bill Arts Ronian Full disclosure Arts Ronian is the director of tax services at Ritholtz Wealth Management and we've been working with him for just about five years. So Bill, let's start with a simple overview. You've said before, tax advice is financial advice. I want to unpack that. How should investors be thinking about the role of tax planning in their overall wealth strategy, especially here in.
- [03:35]
Bill Arts Ronian
December? Well, thanks Barry for having me. Let's just think about a financial plan for a second. What part of a financial plan does not touch on taxes? I mean think about just basic cash flow planning. Taxes for our investors are often the largest expense in their annual budget. It's mortgage and taxes, those are the largest costs. Life insurance is thinking about a tax free inheritance for the next generation or for your heirs. Estate planning is all about taxes. If there was no estate tax, we wouldn't really have to think about estate planning. And then basic portfolio management is, is purely, you know, not purely tax centric. But our investors are thinking about tax all the time. Our clients would rather save $1,000 on taxes than make six figures in a trading day. So it's all connected. And the end of the year is like the report card. Tax planning should be happening proactively for 12 months. But we don't even stop there. We're not thinking about taxes as a current year item or even a lifetime item. We're thinking about this generationally. We're thinking about how can we set up the next generation of client children, client grandchildren for tax.
- [04:38]
Ryan Reynolds
Success. So, so we have a few weeks left in the year. What are the big boxes that you think investors should be checking and what important items do they ignore? What are the big mistakes people.
- [04:50]
Bill Arts Ronian
Make? I think one of the misunderstandings is on tax deferral rather than tax avoidance. Many strategies can avoid taxes or can defer taxes, but that bill will come due at some point. You know, think about even just a 401k pre tax contribution. You're going to recognize that income at some point, things like accelerated depreciation will come back to bite you on the recapture when you sell the asset. Opportunity zones are a tax deferral mechanism. These are all very useful because time value of money says that a tax deduction today is worth more than a tax deduction in the future, but eventually that there's going to be a tax hit. So I think that's a common misunderstanding. A few other mistakes is on capital gain timing. You know, we See, clients not really understand or consider the timing of when they recognize gains. When we onboard folks, we're often pushing gains from the fourth quarter of, say, 2025 into the first quarter of 2026, because that gives us a full 12 months to tax, loss, harvest and create losses to offset any capital gains. The flip side of that, of course, is even a small movement in a stock price can cost more than a tax bill just to sell it. So you have to be pretty comfortable holding the position for a couple weeks or even a couple months. And then the last, the last mistake is misunderstanding. Just basic payment obligations. There are safe harbors to avoid estimated tax penalties. But on the flip side of that is if you pay too much, there's opportunity cost. If you have a big refund in April, that means you paid a little bit too much and that money could have been better put to.
- [06:25]
Ryan Reynolds
Use. So Bloomberg has a fairly sophisticated audience of high earning professionals. What are the three top moves you see for folks like that? They have a portfolio, they have a pretty decent income and they can expect to continue that for the foreseeable.
- [06:42]
Bill Arts Ronian
Future. Let's start with charitable giving. We'll talk about it more throughout the show. But it's often the most accessible lever to pull for tax savings. The caveat being you need to be conscious of where your total deductions fall. We see some clients give a certain amount of charitable gifts and they don't even itemize their deductions. So from a federal tax standpoint, maybe they gave away 10k but they're still taking a standard deduction. They're not benefiting from that charitable gift. So that's where bunching strategies and some other strategies with donor advised funds can come into play. Number two is on the equity comp side, equity compensation. For folks compensated through their company stock, the timing of the income can often be flexible. Think about stock options, company stock options. We should be asking the question how much can we recognize in stock option income before the end of the year before we bump up against the next federal or state tax bracket? How much? If these are incentive stock options, how much can we recognize without paying AMT alternative minimum tax? These are questions we should all be asking if we have if we're, if we're paid through equity or if we have clients that are paid through equity. And the last one is for small business owners. There's, there's a whole lot on the small business side of this. I'm focused a lot on qualified business income, which is a 20% deduction for pass through Income. But there are limitations and those limitations can be on based on how much you pay your employees or yourself in a wage. If you don't meet a certain wage number, that QBI benefit could be significantly reduced or even reduced down to zero if you're, if you're really screwing this up. And then on the small business side we should be looking at are we prepared to maximize retirement contributions? The max 401k is $70,000 this year between employer and employee contributions. And so you have to be ready to have that cash available to fund those contributions. Say you're a mom and pop shop, two owners, zero employees. Maybe you're structured as an S corp. You're going to have to, you're going have to come up with some cash to meet the 401k obligations either before the end of the year before the tax.
- [08:43]
Ryan Reynolds
Filing. So I'm glad you brought up tax advantage accounts. Like for one case there always seems to be a last minute frenzy to maximize not only for one case, but IRAs, Health Saving Accounts. 529. How have the rules changed around credits and ceilings for this year and for.
- [09:03]
Bill Arts Ronian
2026? Right. At least once a year with our, with our clients we're running through the quote unquote basics of all of these contributions. Are you on track to hit each of these with a 401k? We just talked about it a little bit, but there's a 70k limit. Now if you're a W2 employee and you don't own the company, you're, you're going to make employee contributions. Maybe there's a mega backdoor Roth option in there for you. We talk to folks all the time who have this eligible or eligible in their plan, but they don't even know about it. Nobody's talking to them about this when they join the company. And that mega backdoor Roth allows you to put after tax dollars into the 401k, convert it to Roth and have a nice Roth tax free bucket growing alongside the pre tax contributions that you already made. IRAs don't come up a lot in our world for a few reasons. Number one is most of our clients are employed with a retirement plan through their employer. And if that's the case, deductible IRA contributions may be limited.
- [10:01]
However, there is a backdoor option in the IRA if you don't have any pre tax money in any IRAs you can make after tax contributions and again convert to roth in the IRA just as well as you can in the 401k and then the HSA. I love tax nerds, love HSAs. You need to be on a high deductible plan, which isn't for everybody. My colleague Bill Sweet and I, we ran an analysis on high deductible plans and we found that there's a pretty, there's a pretty attractive break even on high deductible plans because the premiums are lower. And the long term benefit of investing deducting HSA contributions and treating those as another retirement vehicle, again, those are like Roths where they're tax free. Those, those can compound very, very nicely where maybe you retire early and let's say you retire 60 instead of 65, you have a five year gap where you need to cover probably significant health care premiums that HSA can be used in that case. And it's a nice tax free bucket to.
- [10:56]
Ryan Reynolds
Have. And what are the ceilings look like on all these tax Advantage accounts for 2026? How has the recent legislation changed the max people can kick into.
- [11:06]
Bill Arts Ronian
Those? The big change in 2026 is that Roth catch up contributions for folks over age 50 are now forced to be Roth contributions again starting 2026. Historically catch up contributions which are going to be 7500 this year, 7500 next year. Folks in their 50s are often in their highest earning years, therefore the pre tax option is usually preferred. However, starting next year, the catch up contributions, the 7,500 are going to be required to be Roth contributions. My theory is I don't mind this at all. Nobody ever regrets a Roth contribution. Nobody ever really regrets a Roth conversion because once you pay tax you don't really think about it. And so if we have, you know, if we have investors in their 50s and 60s that are forced to make a small Roth contribution instead of a pre tax contribution, that just gives them exceedingly more flexibility down the line because now they're going to have different buckets of money to pull from in.
- [12:01]
Ryan Reynolds
Retirement. Sounds really interesting. You mentioned earlier tax loss harvesting. We've been using Canvas as our direct indexing product, but it seems like this has become ubiquitous. What are your thoughts on tax loss harvesting? What does thoughtful harvesting look.
- [12:19]
Bill Arts Ronian
Like? I think the term thoughtful there implies to me that this should be an ongoing activity, not just a year end item. Historically, taxpayers sell DIY investors and even advisors, they'd look at the portfolio in December, they'd say okay, what's underwater? Let's book those losses through through direct indexing. This is now an ongoing activity, but you don't need a direct indexing portfolio to look at Your portfolio, you can. Even if, even if you're not in a direct indexing setup, you can still tax lost harvest throughout the year. Why just December? This should happen with regularity. There's nothing saying we can only book losses in December. Now a lot of this is dictated by individual stock market volatility. But with a, with an ultra diversified bucket of stocks, some will ultimately be losing losers. So you sell those, you pick up tax losses, you invest in a similar company, so you keep the fidelity of the portfolio and then you don't trigger wash sale rules. The only caveat here is state by state stuff. New Jersey, for example, does not allow tax loss carry forwards. So we're doing in December. We're doing a bit of the opposite with our New Jersey clients. We're actually, we're looking historically, over the first 11 months, what did we realize in losses? Let's go make a gains harvest. Instead of realizing more losses, we're going to realize capital gains so we can use them at the state level this.
- [13:36]
Ryan Reynolds
Year. That's, that's really interesting. So I know the deductions have, have changed. The standard deductions have, have become permanent. There are new floors, there are new ceilings for that. For itemized and charitable gifts, how should those people who are charitably inclined think about. You mentioned bunching donations or donor advised funds. Give us a little more detail about how people should be using these.
- [14:01]
Bill Arts Ronian
Vehicles. Yeah, we're doing a lot of this with our clients throughout the year, but specifically at the end of the year, we kind of tee up charitable planning like here. Let's think about what we want to accomplish and then let's take a look at the end of the year and figure out how we're going to get this done and if it's the right year to do it. What we need to be conscious of is all the other deductions, right? Like, like I mentioned previously, you might have a hurdle rate before you even start to deduct your charitable gifts. And that's where you might want to consider bunching maybe three years, maybe five years, maybe 10 years worth of charitable gifts into 2025, for example. 2025, maybe it's a high income year. Maybe you're paying down your mortgage so you're not getting that mortgage deduction anymore. And you want to take advantage of an appreciated security that you, that you gift for charitable purposes. We do a lot of this. We take, maybe a client comes to us, they've worked at a tech company, the tech company, they've been compensated well in that stock, they have charitable intent. We say, okay, let's use that stock, let's send it to a donor advised fund. Let's bunch five years worth of gifting. And now you have your own little charitable fund that you can make grants out of over the next five years. So we're going to, we're going to time the deduction, but we're not actually going to change the way you're.
- [15:11]
Ryan Reynolds
Giving. Really, really interesting. So I'm in New York, you're in Philly. These are big salt regions. I know the most recent big beautiful bill changed all sorts of things. Where are, this is a question I hear all the time. Where are we with salt deductions today? How has this changed? I know we're not quite back the way we were, but it seems to have improved for a lot of people. Tell us what's going on with state and local tax.
- [15:40]
Bill Arts Ronian
Deductions? Well, it's good news for most folks. For some folks, it's not going to change a damn thing. It's going to. What we have here is the. Since 2017, the state and local tax deduction as part of your total itemized deductions was limited to $10,000. For folks, Barry, in New York, California, New Jersey, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, $10,000 just wasn't cutting it. A lot of, you know, we see tax returns here every day where there are sometimes six figures of state and local taxes between real estate and income taxes. The new limit is $40,000. That was maybe the most talked about provision of Trump 2.0's tax bill. It's an increase from 10k to 40k with caveats. If you're earning more than $500,000 of total income, you start to get phased out. These are for, these are for both single filers and married filers. Once you hit 600,000, you're all the way back to 10K. So we have some clients that are not going to see a change at all. They make $1 million a year. They're not going to benefit from this whatsoever. We see other clients where we're having tactical discussions on all kinds of income. Maybe we defer a capital gain into next year because we want to take full advantage of that salt deduction this year or maybe vice versa. But there's a lot more planning to do on all of these deductions. We talked about charitable. This is, this is along the same.
- [17:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Lines. What else from the big beautiful bill has changed the way you think about year end planning? Do any of these provisions show up as actual savings for clients, I.
- [17:11]
Bill Arts Ronian
Think it's, it's back to the charitable piece. There are some changes next year that are going to impact charitable giving which make 2025 perhaps more attractive from a charitable landscape. Next year there's going to be a quote unquote a floor on charitable gifts where the 1st.5% of your AGI will not be deductible for charitable purposes. So if you make a million bucks, the first 5k you give away to charity provides zero federal tax benefit. The other change for the highest earning folks, folks in the 37% bracket, they are going to be limited on their overall deductions. They'll be treated as 35% taxpayers. So that 2% Delta can, can really add up when we're talking about, when we're talking about big deductions. So we're doing a lot of shifting of charitable salt deductions. Even mortgage, even mortgage deduction. We're trying to get most of that into 2025, especially for our highest income taxpaying.
- [18:02]
Ryan Reynolds
Clients. So to wrap up, there's still plenty of time before the year ends. There are lots of moves individual investors can make to not only reduce the taxes they're going to owe for the 2025 year, but also to think about long term planning their estate, maximizing every opportunity the government gives us. Lots of ways to either reduce or defer our current tax bill. Everybody should take full advantage of what's on offer. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Bloomberg's at the.
- [18:38]
Bill Arts Ronian
Money. Stop paying.
- [18:41]
Barry Ritholtz
Taxes. All right.
- [18:48]
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- [18:57]
Bill Arts Ronian
Briefs. Oh.
- [18:58]
Barry Ritholtz
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- [19:31]
Ryan Reynolds
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Bill Arts Ronian
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Barry Ritholtz
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Bill Arts Ronian
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Barry Ritholtz
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Bill Arts Ronian
Ray.
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Ryan Reynolds
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- [19:44]
Barry Ritholtz
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- [19:50]
Bill Arts Ronian
Coming.
- [19:52]
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- [19:57]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [20:25]
Barry Ritholtz
Lenovo.
- [20:28]
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