How to get better at money, with Carrie Joy Grimes

Summary

Masters of Scale: "How to Get Better at Money" with C.J. Grimes

Date: May 28, 2026
Host: Jeff Berman
Guest: C.J. Grimes, Founder of Work Money

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Episode Overview

This episode features C.J. Grimes, founder of Work Money, a nonprofit that helps millions of Americans navigate personal finance, earn more, and save more. Grimes discusses her journey from union organizer to financial advocate, the emotional barriers to financial wellness, and practical strategies for both individuals and communities to improve their financial wellbeing. The conversation weaves personal stories, practical advice, and perspectives on scaling a mission-driven organization that’s changing how Americans approach money.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Birth and Mission of Work Money

• Work Money’s Purpose: Helps 9 million+ Americans manage personal finances, access discounts, and use collective bargaining for better deals.
• Origin Story: Started in 2020 during the pandemic to answer common money questions; demand persisted well beyond the crisis.
• Unique Approach: Functions like "AARP for everyone," leveraging the power of a large membership for consumer bargaining and trusted information.
• "There wasn't one place everyday Americans could go to figure out what to do with their money. Like, not one trusted website brand person who you could really lean into who would give you the straight information." — C.J. Grimes [03:44]

2. C.J. Grimes’ Personal Money Journey

• Union Organizing Roots: 20 years working closely with working-class families gave Grimes deep insight into everyday money struggles.
• Formative Experiences: Early career hardships, like showing up with "negative money" and receiving kindness from a boss, sparked her first real budgeting experience.
• "I had been telling myself I was terrible at money because I was poor and I was working poor ... And the reality was, when I thought I was bad at money, then I behaved like somebody who was bad at money." — C.J. Grimes [09:49]
• Emphasizing Math vs. Reality: Acknowledges most people struggle because of insufficient money, not bad habits.
• Emotional Barriers: Personal finance is often "math and feelings."

3. The Emotional Side of Money

• Shame and Avoidance: Many, regardless of income, feel anxiety, avoidance, or shame about financial matters.
• "Money is math and feelings. But ... the thing that holds the most people back is the feelings part." — C.J. Grimes [02:19, 15:13]
• Mindset Shift: Changing your internal narrative about money is foundational for making tangible progress.

4. Lessons from Family: Impact of Money Fear

• Mother’s Story: Grimes details her mother’s end-of-life struggles, living in poverty and fear despite having resources, due to anxiety about money.
• "My mom had been living this kind of pauper’s existence and ... so afraid that she wouldn’t have enough that she did nothing." — C.J. Grimes [13:00]
• Universal Relevance: Financial stress is not just about numbers; it profoundly shapes life and wellbeing.

5. Scaling Work Money to a National Movement

• From Side Project to Institution:
  • Start during pandemic; growth sustained as economic pressures persisted.
  • Realization: U.S. economy’s persistent inequality requires a continual solution, not just temporary help.
• Inflection Points:
  • Growing from a founder-centric operation to a scalable team.
  • Deciding against single-issue problem-solving in favor of broad, adaptive services for all members.
• "Being able to scale fast meant how quickly could we talk to anyone and figure out what kind of money help they needed and then deliver the best version of that." — C.J. Grimes [23:29]

6. Building Partnerships & Practical Help

• Marketplace Model:
  • Curates and vets money-saving services, e.g., Upside app for gas discounts.
  • Clear-eyed about trade-offs (not every partner or deal is perfect for every user).
• Information Power:
  • Detailed, accessible summaries of key policy changes (like tax laws), everyday tips, and advocacy for smarter financial decisions.
• "We read every word in the new tax bill, and we said, 'here’s what the tax bill means. Here are the tax credits you should look out for.'" — C.J. Grimes [26:08]

7. Five Types of Power for Change

• Market Power: Collective bargaining for better consumer deals (aiming to impact health care, insurance, etc.)
• Constituent Power: Members influencing politicians with clear, nonpartisan demands.
• Audience Power: Producing trusted, relevant financial content.
• Entrepreneurial Power: Supporting individual and community business endeavors.
• Innovation: Launch of MoneyFinder.com—a nonprofit bill negotiation service to save users on cable, internet, and cellular bills, with plans to expand to healthcare and insurance.
  • "We’ve saved so far an average of 400 bucks a pop." — C.J. Grimes [29:21]

8. Dispelling Bad Money Advice

• Reject Shame: Avoid financial advice that makes you feel bad; shame is not motivating or sustainable.
  • "Any advice that makes you feel bad about yourself, any shame based money advice, just walk away ... It won’t actually fix the habits." — C.J. Grimes [31:21]
• Stick to Basics: Max out "tax-advantaged retirement accounts" before exploring riskier investments.
  • "There is very little the everyday person can do that’s going to make them more money than just maxing out their tax advantage retirement accounts." — C.J. Grimes [32:09]
• Build a Joyful Money Story:
  • Emergency fund → pay off credit cards → save for 3-6 months expenses → invest for retirement
  • “The reason I called the book The Joy of Money is because the joy is what the money is for. And whatever that is for you ... don’t let other people tell you how you’re supposed to do money.” [33:02]

9. Book Recommendations

• "The Psychology of Money" by Morgan Housel: Endorsed by both host and guest for understanding personal finance psychology.
• "The Joy of Money" by C.J. Grimes: Positioned as a complementary, practical guide focusing on emotional and mathematical aspects.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Insight | |------------|--------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:19 | C.J. Grimes | "Money is math and feelings ... the thing that holds the most people back is the feelings part." | | 09:49 | C.J. Grimes | "When I thought I was bad at money, then I behaved like somebody who was bad at money." | | 13:00 | C.J. Grimes | "My mom ... so afraid that she wouldn't have enough that she did nothing." | | 15:19 | Jeff & CJ | "Math plus feelings equals money." | | 23:29 | C.J. Grimes | "Being able to scale fast meant ... we could talk to anyone and figure out what kind of money help they needed and then deliver the best version of that." | | 29:21 | C.J. Grimes | "We've saved so far an average of 400 bucks a pop [with Money Finder]." | | 31:21 | C.J. Grimes | "Any shame based money advice, just walk away ... It won’t actually fix the habits." | | 32:09 | C.J. Grimes | "Max out your tax advantaged retirement accounts before you go throwing money into some other investment." | | 33:02 | C.J. Grimes | "The reason I called the book The Joy of Money is because the joy is what the money is for ... don’t let other people tell you how you’re supposed to do money." |

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Segment Timestamps

• 02:19–05:38: Grimes’ approach to money as "math and feelings"; introduction to Work Money’s mission.
• 05:38–11:07: Personal stories about money shame, budgeting, and the transformative power of mindset shift.
• 12:20–16:55: The story of Grimes’ mother and the impact of money anxiety; emotional barriers to financial actions.
• 19:25–24:45: Organization scaling—building a team, evolving the approach, and making Work Money a civic institution.
• 24:45–29:13: Partnerships, practical member services, and how Work Money delivers direct value (e.g., bill negotiation, app discounts).
• 29:13–34:30: New services, the pitfalls of bad money advice, and Grimes’ three core rules for personal financial health.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Finance is about mindset as much as math; changing your money story can be transformative.
• Seek community and trusted resources—nobody should have to navigate money alone.
• Beware of shame-based advice and financial myths; stick to basics for long-term stability.
• Maximize accessible, low-risk opportunities (emergency fund, pay off debt, retirement accounts) before exploring advanced investment strategies.
• The ultimate goal: Find your joy in money, and let your values—not someone else’s rules—drive your financial choices.

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For more guidance, read C.J. Grimes’ The Joy of Money—a practical, compassionate guide to personal finance for real people.

Transcript

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[Jeff Berman]

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[C.J. Grimes]

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[Jeff Berman]

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[C.J. Grimes]

Money is math and feelings. But having had thousands of conversations with individual people and having had the experience at Work Money of being in conversation over text, email and phones with 9 million people all the time, one of the things that became very clear is that the thing that holds the most people back is the feelings part.

[Jeff Berman]

This is Masters of Scale. I'm Jeff Berman, your host this week on the show CJ Grimes. CJ Grimes is the founder of Work Money, which helps 9 million and more growing number Americans deal with personal financial issues, has a fascinating history, and is also a dear friend with a big new book coming out C.J. grimes, welcome to Masters of Scale.

[C.J. Grimes]

Thank you so much, Jeff, for having me here.

[Jeff Berman]

So why don't we just start with what is work money and how did you get started doing this?

[C.J. Grimes]

Work money is the thing I wish existed when I was trying to figure out money. It is a nonprofit. We've got 9 million members. And we help people figure out how to earn more and save more and spend less. And we do that through programs and services and coupons and discounts, kind of like the AARP that the other thing that work money does is we figure out how to use the power of 9 million people to bargain for cheaper stuff to make sure that people understand how the economy works and what they can do to navigate it. And it started in Covid. You know, it was 2020, and everyone's money kind of got turned upside down. People were trying to figure out, what are these stimulus checks, what's a PPP loan, what is unemployment? And I put up a website to answer all the questions that I was getting from people, and it just took off. And then after Covid, it became pretty clear that there wasn't one place everyday Americans could go to figure out what to do with their money. Like, not one trusted website brand person who you could really lean into who would give you the straight information. And that's why we are not done after Covid. That's why we are now 9 million people and we're growing pretty rapidly.

[Jeff Berman]

What in your background led you to not just identify this need, but say, oh, I'm actually someone who can really help with this?

[C.J. Grimes]

I was a union organizer for just about 20 years, and I had this incredible gift of talking to working people at their homes, at their churches, in bars, in union halls, and just asking people about their money and their lives and figuring out how to help folks negotiate for higher pay and better benefits. So I got to see what happens when regular people kind of get together and they put their shoulder to the wheel of doing better. And there was a very obvious set of problems that emerged after thousands of conversations. Thing one was that most people didn't really have the money basics down. Like, nobody sat me down and taught me how to do money. And then the other was most people felt like they were kind of in on all of it by themselves, like they were just alone having to navigate it. And so when I put the website up, I had a really strong sense of what I needed, what, which was help with the basics of money, but then also the idea that we really can change the circumstances, that we're all trying to earn more and save more in.

[Jeff Berman]

I very much want to get to the scaling of work money. 0 to 9 million in 5 years basically is a pretty impressive number. And these are people you have a text relationship, an SMS relationship with. Not just people like 9 million visitors to a website or an Instagram or something. But before we get there, what led you to the union organizing work to begin with?

[C.J. Grimes]

You know, I'm a pretty cantankerous person. I don't like it when people have a bad deal and they can't fix it. And, you know, I was in college, I was a history major, and I went to Northern Illinois University. Go Huskies. And I got really into how we improved America over time. Like, how did it get better? And it wasn't magic, it wasn't nature, but people got up and decided to shift things over and over again. And I was lucky enough that somebody who I went to college with was like, you know, you might make a good union organizer. And I was like, unions, those old things that, like, people need when they work in a factory. But I was like, okay, you know, let's check it out. And so I moved out to Ohio where this local union was organizing workers. And I said, okay, I'll try. And I hated it for the first 90 days.

[Jeff Berman]

What did you hate about it?

[C.J. Grimes]

It was really hard. Like, really good organizing is listening. And I really liked to talk, and so I had to learn to listen first.

[Jeff Berman]

One of the things that struck me reading the book was the 20 Years Working with working families, paycheck to paycheck voters, et cetera, gives you incredible grounding for the work you're doing at Work Money today. And also you have some pretty extraordinary personal stories that help you relate to the 9 million and growing number of Americans you're serving through work money. You referenced moving to Ohio for the first union job. There's a story in the book about the boss you were working for effectively at that time. Would you mind sharing that story with us?

[C.J. Grimes]

No, I wouldn't. When I moved out to Ohio, I had negative money. I mean, I really had no money. I had shoes with holes in them and. And I had, like my rust bucket of a car, which is literally what I call it in the book. Like, she barely got there. She had a name. Her name is Mo. I called her Mo. She barely got there. And it was like, please don't die on the road. I mean, we've all lived those years, or not all of us, but many of us have lived those years. If you know, you know And I show up for my very first day at work, and we're at this union hall office, and we're doing a bunch of stuff. And then the organizing lead says, well, let's go out to dinner and we'll sort of finish up the night. And I didn't have any money. I was, like, gonna go back to my Red Roof Hotel and get some, you know, ramen noodles and watch Law and Order, which is the only thing on the television in hotels at that time of night. And the organizing lead was like, no, no, you gotta come to dinner. And I was like, that's okay. And he, like, knew. He knew.

[Jeff Berman]

He saw those holes in your shoes.

[C.J. Grimes]

I was so threadbare, and I was so obviously, like, strapped for cash. He's like, I got you. And, oh, my God, I hated that. He was like, no, no, no, you gotta come and Couldn't say no. He was like, I really wanted to impress him. So we have dinner, and he pays for my dinner, and then he gives me $100. And he says, here, buy some new shoes and, like, give yourself some cushion, basically, until the next paycheck.

[Jeff Berman]

Yeah. And let's be clear, like, $100 also, 20 years ago, when you have your next paycheck isn't coming for two weeks. Right. You've got absolutely nothing. Like that is godsend money. But also, how the heck do you pay that back?

[C.J. Grimes]

I mean, this is the question. This is part of why this book even exists, is because, look, I'd had. I tried budgeting here and there. I'd. You know, we all had. I kind of, like. I'd had a bit of an emergency fund, and then I'd kind of spent it all on an emergency, then hadn't figured out how to fill it back up. And this was the first time I was so aggravated that I owed this man money. It just ate at me. So I did. I sat down in my Red Roof hotel room, and I took out a pen, and I wrote down all of the money I had to pay for things, how much I was gonna make, and I was determined to pay him back.

[Jeff Berman]

That sounds suspiciously like a budget.

[C.J. Grimes]

And it was my first real budget. To this day. The way that I figured that out has become, like, my method for budgeting. It's not rocket surgery. It's like, here's what you gotta spend, and here's where the extra money can go. And so I paid him back. And I just had this feeling of accomplishment. And this is the thing that I realized. I had been telling myself I was terrible at money because I was poor and I was working poor. And I was like, I couldn't keep it in my bank account. I was living paycheck to paycheck. I had had these moments, which some of us have had, where you go to the store and you give them your card and you're like, oh, I hope it goes through. And I just assumed that all of that was evidence that said I'm bad at money. And the reality was, when I thought I was bad at money, then I behaved like somebody who was bad at money. And I kept behaving like somebody who was bad at money. And that moment where I paid this guy back and I felt like I'd really done something with my money. And I decided in that moment to change the way I thought about how I did money. And I thought, wow, I can be good at money. I really can. And then I was like, well, if it worked for that guy, I should pay down the credit card debt that I've got. I should save up an emergency fund and so on. And I did. And every time I found myself thinking I couldn't do it, I'd be like, of course you can be good at money.

[Jeff Berman]

So, I mean, I go back to my first job out of law school, where I went to be a public defender rather than going to a big law firm and making insane amount of money. And I made 29,5 that first year out of law school. And the local Safeway would triple coupons on Sunday nights after 9 or 10pm Whatever it was. And I would literally wait for the clock to strike so that I could walk up to the register and get that triple coupon value and buy my huge thing of chicken thighs, which I'd have to stretch out to make the week. The idea of setting money aside at that time is, like, insane for me. How did you do it?

[C.J. Grimes]

Let me be really clear. Most people, the problem they have is that they don't have enough money. I just want to say that plainly.

[Jeff Berman]

It's a math exercise.

[C.J. Grimes]

It's a math problem. And in this economy and in our society, you play the hand of cards you're dealt, no matter what they are. And I think holding both of those realities together is hard. And so I say this without judgment. I chose for myself. Say I choose to do this. It is important to me to pay this guy back. So it took me longer than I would have liked to save up a hundred dollars, but I did it. And the choose to not have to thing was really helpful for me. But I also worry that I don't want people to weaponize it.

[Jeff Berman]

There are several personal stories from the book that were quite powerful to read and felt formative. There's a story about when your mom is passing, which feels really foundational. And so I was wondering if you could share that as well.

[C.J. Grimes]

Yeah. My mom, bless her heart, she died in 2022. I'm gonna say some things that are a little hard about my mom and just to pay for that a little bit, I'm gonna say she was so smart. She was a card shark. She was a very Christian woman who believed it was her God given right to cheat at cards and beat you any way she could. She was a huge Cubs fan and a Bears fan. And she lived long enough to see the Cubs win the World Series. And my mom did in really shocking conditions. By the time she passed away, she had been living on Diet Coke and cheese and crackers. Cause she wasn't sure how much money she had. So she had been spending nothing on like the barest of like sustenance living. And her house was filthy and everything she owned was set out at counter level because her health had deteriorated from her lack of nutrition and mobility. So she couldn't really bend up or down. And so she fell. And then we moved her into rehab and then independent living facility where she passed away pretty quickly after we moved her. And what I realized is that my mom had been living this like kind of pauper's existence and she'd been afraid to go to the doctor. She hadn't been taking her medicine because she was afraid she couldn't afford more. And so the end of her life, she just. Her world got so small and she was so afraid that she wouldn't have enough that she did nothing. And I, to this day I know that if, like, if my mom had called me 20 years ago or even 10 years ago, I could have sat down with her, looked at her money, figured out maybe some in home help for her. We could have budgeted differently. I could have helped her think through what the end of her life could look like. It was hard in the moment. And then the reflections afterward were really like. It was very like, oof. I don't want my kid to go through that, or my husband and also me. Like, I don't want to go through that. But I wanted to make sure that other people's moms and other people kind of maybe didn't get to the cheese and Diet Coke and crackers stage.

[Jeff Berman]

Yeah. And it's such a moving and powerful part of the book. One of the more mundane, but for me, really striking elements was even people who are not in the financial circumstances that your mom was in can have a lot of issues around money.

[C.J. Grimes]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Jeff Berman]

A lot of fear can be avoidant. I'm an avoider. I mean, the book really helped unstick me on a couple of things that I've just been like, I don't want to deal with it, so I'm not going to do it. And it's like, yeah, I have to do this. Yeah, right. And so why do so many of us have so many issues around just facing the facts and dealing with the matters of the basics of our personal finance?

[C.J. Grimes]

Money is math and feelings. It's math and feelings.

[Jeff Berman]

Math plus feelings equals money.

[C.J. Grimes]

Math plus feelings equals money.

[Jeff Berman]

Got it.

[C.J. Grimes]

But having had thousands of conversations with individual people and having had the experience at work money, of being in conversation over text, email and phones with 9 million people all the time, one of the things that became very clear is that the thing that holds the most people back is the feelings part. You know, that's the part where you go to Target and you go in for, like, I don't know, pick up a prescription and you walk out with like peanut butter pretzels and a throw pillow and that really cute little solar lantern that you're like, this is going to look perfect on my back porch. But it wasn't really in the budget, but you really wanted it, and I'm just going to do it anyway. That's. There's nothing morally wrong with doing that. But I got really curious, like, well, why did I do that? Like, why did I. I knew. I know I have a budget. It's not in there. Why did I why? And for me, it would usually be, I had a hard week. I felt like there's no joy in life. I just needed some bit of pleasure in my daily week, which is a note that I need to figure out some pleasure in my week. Or for me, avoidance was also, I cannot stand evidence that I might not be good at this. So I would just not want to open the envelope or look my bank account. It's like, I just don't need one more person telling me that I'm doing a bad job at something because there's a story in my head that runs pretty hard telling me, you're doing a bad job, you're doing a bad job. This is obviously in the past. And so the feelings part is part of why in the book. The very first chapter is figuring out what your money story is and what you want it to be. Because that's the thing, more than anything else I've seen make it hard for people to implement all the math.

[Jeff Berman]

Still ahead, how C.J. grimes is scaling Work Money into a Movement.

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[Jeff Berman]

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[Bob]

hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely, from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from the Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find. Just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there.

[Jeff Berman]

Welcome back to Masters of Scale. You can find this conversation and much more on our YouTube channel and be sure to check out the show notes for a link to our newsletter. Let's talk about work money. What happens that this goes from being sort of a project or a side hustle or something that like might have potential to something that starts actually scaling?

[C.J. Grimes]

I thought when the pandemic was over or subsiding that we would see interest subside. That Our signups would, would, would drop. This was meant to be like a let's get us all through something hard and then let's see what happens. And it became, I mean, to be blunt, I'm also a person who believes in organization. And so of course, 20 years of

[Jeff Berman]

union organizing will do that for us.

[C.J. Grimes]

I wanted to build something that would be sustainable, but I was aware that this was launching to solve an immediate problem. And I had been thinking about sort of the concept up till this point. Like, I've been thinking about the concept of work money. But work money was really meant to patch a hole in the moment. And then the test for me was, for all of us was, okay, once the pandemic is over, do we see traffic drop, do we see sign ups drop? And it turns out no, because the economy hasn't really gotten dramatically better for most of us.

[Jeff Berman]

Yeah, no, I mean, there was a chart that you and I were looking at this weekend. It showed like, basically the delta between where the stock market is and where Americans. How they feel about the economy has literally never been larger since they've been measuring this.

[C.J. Grimes]

That's right. That's right. Look, there's always going to be those of us who get dealt a hand and have a really hard time getting to financial security in the American economy. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm very aware that that is, that's, that has been a story for some people perennially in the American economy. But the number of us who feel squeezed in today's economy, who make very good living, who are watching healthcare costs, education costs, housing costs, childcare costs go so go up so much faster than our wages, it's staggering. And when the pandemic ended and our signups went just as fast, if not faster, and right now we're seeing a lot of signups because middle class families are stretched. It was a real clarion call. After the pandemic. It's like, okay, this really is about, for me, this is about how do we build a permanent civic institution in America, A place that anybody can go to get the individual information about money, how to save, how to invest, how to learn about buying a house or not. And then also how do we use our collective strength to bargain for better in the market, to make sure that decision makers who are politicians know what everybody wants. This isn't about political parties. It's about right and wrong. And how do we think about using all of our resources to build the businesses that we want? And, and I feel even more passionately now than I did during the pandemic that the problem isn't just a one time crisis. You know, I mean, that was a particularly gnarly one. But there's a need to shift how the economy works right now and to make more success, more possible for more

[Jeff Berman]

people on the road from 0 to 9 million. Were there inflection points you can point to and go, oh, that, that really changed. We hit a scaling moment there.

[C.J. Grimes]

We started in the pandemic. So we're fully remote, we're still fully remote. And that moment when you go from one zoom screen to like two, do you know what I mean, where you have to hit the little arrow, that was a big deal because it meant that we had gone from passionate generalists to passionate generalists and experts in some things. It meant that also a lot of things I was doing were leaving my hands. And I'll just confess, as a founder's founder, I really love solving hard problems all by myself. And I am very lucky to have an incredibly talented team that can do a lot of work, but also can give me some grace as I learned, as I learned to let go. So me, I don't mean this about me, but me learning how to like let the team take things was great. Was a moment. And then I'll say figuring out how to deliver dollars in people's pockets in a material way and realizing that one, solving this is kind of antithetical to how some startups work. Defining the problem in a very specific way, where it's like one kind of problem. So for example, we could have decided, you know, what the problem we're going to tackle is. Car insurance costs are too high, we're going to focus on that. We're going to be really narrow. We're going to be like, okay, we're going to talk about car insurers and how they can do better and we're going to deal with regulators on that and lower costs and we're going to cut a deal with some car insurance. So we thought about doing that, like picking one or two specific problems that could put dollars in people's pockets. But what became really clear is that being able to scale fast meant how quickly could we talk to anyone and figure out what kind of money help they needed and then deliver the best version of that. So we kind of broke some of the startup rules where we didn't get really specific. We actually got, we actually leaned way. And so we have a bunch of partners now and we think a lot about like, how do we provide an individual person with the most help they can that does two things. Immediately add some value, whether that's a dollar in your pocket or information you really needed, and then also give them the chance to influence what happens in the economy more broadly.

[Jeff Berman]

What's an example of a partnership that gives you additional capacity so you can scale the impact you have for your members?

[C.J. Grimes]

You know, here's a great example. There's an app called Upside. Upside is an app. You can download it to your phone and you buy gas at a gas station. And Upside will give you a discount per gallon. If you do it and use the code workmoney, you get an extra discount. And so I've saved myself 25 cents a gallon in some places now. Upside's not perfect. They track your data, you know, and also they. It's not the best deal in every single market, but it's like a way that somebody who's really thinking about gas can, like, save a little bit at the pump right now. And it's a good example because we look for partnerships that are going to add value, but we're very eyes wide open about it. You know, there's very few perfect things out there in the world. And I really like upside personally, and I like having cheaper gas, especially in this economy where gas is off the chain. And I think, you know, a lot of us could use a little bit of breathing room. And so one of the things that Workmen does is we look for the highest. The best possible partner. And then we're. We're very eyes wide open about it. We say, okay, here you go. You can sign up for it. It might not be perfect for you, but here's a way in which you can use it, and here's how it does better for you and for your family, right?

[Jeff Berman]

So you don't have to develop the expertise yourself. You don't develop the service yourself. You really are almost really to your ARP point, you're a marketplace for them to choose options that might work for them in some cases.

[C.J. Grimes]

That's right. And mostly what we do. So we have. Those are a bunch of different options. Mostly what we do right now is, is we're looking at the economy. We're really understanding where prices are at, we're understanding where things are going, and we give people a heads up. So, for example, we read every word in the new tax bill, and we said, okay, y', all, here's what the tax bill means. Here are the tax credits you should look out for. Here's what you should be mindful of. Here's the benefit of this, here's where it's not going to do you as much good. And so we really help people parse what's happening in policy and in the economy. And then we also have the coupons, the discounts, the partnerships, because it's really a full stack thing. Money's individual. Make your good choices, do what you can with it. Everyone should play the cards you're dealt. And there are things we can do that improve the odds that we can do better.

[Jeff Berman]

How do you think about the political power of the middle class, of paycheck to paycheck voters, of kind of the core of the work money community in this moment? Are these two examples you've offered a representation of where you can go?

[C.J. Grimes]

I think, yes, I am very, very clear that if politicians could solve the problems of the American economy, they would have. And so I do not look to politics to fix anything. Politics is like an outcome, you know, And I don't really think much about left or right. I think a lot about right and wrong.

[Jeff Berman]

Politics is an outcome. But politics is also the process by which we have policies. That tax bill that you referenced exists because a bunch of politicians passed a law that the president signed and there were a lot of big money interests trying to influence the fine print of that bill.

[C.J. Grimes]

That's right. That's right. So when I say politics is an outcome, I mean the decisions that get made are the end result of a lot of stuff that happens. So when I think about work money, I think about work money having power in five ways. I think about market power that's like get together, bargain for cheaper stuff. I want to get so big we can bargain around health care costs. It does not seem impossible. There's a bunch of things like that that we could bargain for cheaper on. I also think a lot about constituent power, right? Like everybody together telling politicians and regulators and you know, elected leaders of both parties. Here's our expectation. You have this job because we put you in it. And your job is to represent all of us. And what we want from you is this and this. So I'm a very big fan of, of working in middle class people really flexing their power at the constituent level. I also think a lot about audience power, you know, like how do we decide what we listen to and what we make for ourselves? And so work money does a lot of that. Like as part of what I talk about, we make content or we send out messaging around, like here's what this economic thing means for your wallet. So how do we know who to trust and who to follow. How do we make our own content? I also think a lot about entrepreneurial power and ideas and how do we make our own businesses? How do we launch our own stuff that makes life better for us? And so we have a. It's not official yet, but breaking news, breaking news. We're launching a bill negotiation service. It's called Money Finder. Moneyfinder.com Will this work with my health

[Jeff Berman]

insurance company or my healthcare providers?

[C.J. Grimes]

Not yet. That is on deck. But right now we can negotiate to lower anybody's cable, Internet and cell phone bill.

[Jeff Berman]

Wow.

[C.J. Grimes]

And so you go to it and upload a bill, we analyze it and then our negotiators get to work. And we've saved so far an average of 400 bucks a pop, which is

[Jeff Berman]

a lot of money. So I upload my Verizon bill, you all come back and say, yeah, we think we can do better than this. What am I paying for this?

[C.J. Grimes]

So you are paying a maximum of $75, but you only pay if we save you money.

[Jeff Berman]

I'm basically going to give you a commission on what you can save me. And I say, great, I'll make the deal, go ahead. You go off and you negotiate.

[C.J. Grimes]

That's right.

[Jeff Berman]

Right. So we, we rise or fall together,

[C.J. Grimes]

but most people have saved 400 bucks or more. There's other bill negotiation services out there. We wanted to make one that everyone can trust. This is nonprofit backed. We're not doing anything except literally trying to put money in people's pockets. And this is the first stage. I want to add a bunch more to it. I want to add healthcare bills, I want to add health insurance bills, I want to add car insurance and home insurance. Tons of different things we could do once we get the negotiation team built out. And so right now we're starting with cable, cell phone, Internet. People should get while the gettin's good.

[Jeff Berman]

Well, I mean, I think there's huge value here, not just in the actual dollars, but in the time and the exasperation cost of it. I mean, you know, I'm a lawyer by training. I've been a professional for a lot of years at this, at this point. And you know, several years ago I was negotiating for months over a five figure healthcare bill that like absolutely should been covered by insurance. And granted I didn't have the benefit of Claude or Gemini or whatever to go to, to coach me through it, but I had the Internet and it took me forever. And so to say I'm happy to give up a portion of what I Get back because you have the pattern recognition, then you know what the trigger words are going to be, et cetera. I mean, this is real benefit for people. Before we close, I want to come back to the book for a moment. CJ what is one of the biggest pieces of advice that proliferates through the Internet that is just really bad advice when it comes to personal finance.

[C.J. Grimes]

I'm torn.

[Jeff Berman]

Give us two.

[C.J. Grimes]

Okay, okay, okay. The first is anyone that makes you feel like crap about yourself or your choices. Any advice that makes you feel bad about yourself, any shame based money advice, just walk away. And look, that's not just a moral thing. Although it aggravates me morally, it's also short termism. It won't actually fix the habits. Friend used to say he was a baseball player. He used to say there's always a guy eating a hot dog in the fourth row yelling at you to hit the ball better. And it turns out that doesn't actually work to help people hit the ball better, you know. And so the first thing is just those shame messages. It can be really tempting. We have a lot of training to listen to them, do what you can to ignore those people. I don't know who hurt them, but

[Jeff Berman]

that's a them problem.

[C.J. Grimes]

That's a them problem. And the second is please max out your tax advantaged retirement accounts before you go throwing money into some other investment. There is very little the everyday person can do that's going to make them more money than just maxing out their tax advantage retirement accounts. That's a 401k, that's a 403b. That's an Iraq. Read the book. You can learn about Roth versus Traditional. You can make your own choices. But there's all this sort of cowboy investment culture right now. Is it crypto, Is it housing? And should I be in which how do I trade stocks? And look, no shade. My husband loves that stuff. He is good at it. He puts a lot of time into learning about. He's a crypto person and figuring out how to maneuver inside the markets. And I ain't got time for that. And also it takes a level of skill and it takes a level of knowledge in the industry that most people don't have. So the one piece of advice I wish everyone could hear me say is it's not complicated. Get yourself a thousand dollar emergency fund. Pay off any credit card debt you have. You will not invest in things that will make you more than your credit cards are costing you. After you pay off your credit cards. You want to save up three to six months worth of expenses and then you're into investment and retirement. It's not that hard. The math is pretty clear on it. So the third thing I would say is this. Nobody gets to tell you what matters. No one tells you what matters about your money. No one should tell you. You know, you're only successful if you buy a house, have a kid, 1.2 kids, whatever that is. Like, the reason I called the book the Joy of Money is because the joy is what the money is for. And whatever that is for you, maybe it's being a homeowner, maybe it's not. Maybe it's something entirely different. And you can build wealth by investing. Just don't let other people tell you how you're supposed to do money. Like you get to decide. Don't give that power up to somebody else. There's less joy in it.

[Jeff Berman]

The book that I have most recommended and reread on personal finance is the Psychology of Money.

[C.J. Grimes]

Oh yeah, Morgan Housel he's great.

[Jeff Berman]

The Joy of Money is a phenomenal companion to Morgan's book, and they really should be read together. I'm so excited for people to discover this. C.J. thank you for being on Masters of Scale.

[C.J. Grimes]

Thanks, Jeff. I really appreciate the chance.

[Jeff Berman]

Masters of Scale is a Wait, what? Original Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Senior supervising producer is Tricia Bobita. Associate producer is Masha Makatinina. Video editor is Noah Walstein. Senior talent executive is Stephanie Stern. Mixing and mastering by the audio boys, Aaron Bastinelli and Brian Pugh. Original music by the legendary Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcast is lital molad. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our newsletter. And be sure to check out our YouTube channel.