Podcast Summary: Interesting Times with Ross Douthat – Episode: "From Deportations to Firings: Trump’s ‘Moonshot on Executive Power’"

Introduction

In the April 17, 2025 episode of Interesting Times with Ross Douthat, hosted by Ross Douthat of New York Times Opinion, the discussion delves deep into the unprecedented and aggressive use of executive power by former President Donald Trump. Titled "From Deportations to Firings: Trump’s ‘Moonshot on Executive Power’," the episode explores how Trump's strategies are reshaping the executive branch, challenging institutional checks, and potentially setting the stage for a transformed American governmental landscape.

Trump’s Revolutionary Use of Executive Power

Ross Douthat opens the conversation by highlighting a recent essay by guest Jack Goldsmith, a Harvard Law School professor and former head of the Office of Legal Counsel under President George W. Bush. Goldsmith characterizes Trump's approach as a "moonshot on executive power," positioning it as a historic and transformative effort akin to those undertaken by Franklin Roosevelt.

Ross Douthat [01:14]: "Donald Trump is attempting a revolution in executive power, one that whatever happens will probably leave the executive branch dramatically changed."

Jack Goldsmith elaborates on the dual dimensions of Trump's strategy:

1. Vertical Dimension: Asserting complete control over the executive branch, ensuring that all subordinate agencies align strictly with the President's interpretations and directives.

2. Horizontal Dimension: Challenging and undermining other governmental institutions, including Congress and the judiciary, to weaken traditional checks and balances.

Jack Goldsmith [02:22]: "The Trump administration is pushing executive power to unprecedented places in new ways on many dimensions."

Unexpected Aggressiveness and Legal Overreach

Goldsmith expresses surprise at the extent and aggressiveness of Trump's maneuvers, particularly within the executive branch. He notes the administration's attempts to sideline traditional legal interpretations and impose loyalty tests, reflecting a disdain for independent legal checks.

Jack Goldsmith [04:49]: "The extent of the loyalty tests and the insistence that the president determines what the law is and that there's no independent legal check"

Case Study: Deportations to El Salvador

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the controversial deportation of individuals, specifically referencing the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who was wrongfully deported to a Salvadoran prison. This case exemplifies the administration's broader strategy of utilizing outdated statutes like the Alien Enemies Act to justify deportations without due process.

Ross Douthat [12:00]: "Garcia was deported to El Salvador a prison. The Supreme Court has weighed in on that, saying that all deported individuals require due process and cannot be sent without notice."

Goldsmith underscores the questionable legality of invoking such statutes in contemporary contexts and highlights the potential for judicial pushback.

Jack Goldsmith [12:22]: "There's a real dilemma. The court is trying to nudge both sides to do the right thing, but the administration responded obnoxiously, escalating the conflict."

Potential Constitutional Crisis

The conversation probes whether Trump's actions constitute a constitutional crisis. Goldsmith reframes the terminology, suggesting that rather than an all-or-nothing crisis, there's a gradual erosion of legal checks on the presidency. He emphasizes that while the judiciary remains a primary check, the administration's strategy may outpace the courts' ability to respond effectively.

Jack Goldsmith [07:03]: "There's been a significant diminution in legal checks on the President. The courts are currently the only real check, but they are overwhelmed by the administration's aggressive tactics."

Unitary Executive Theory and Federal Spending

The discussion transitions to Trump's assertions of power over federal spending, anchored in the unitary executive theory—a conservative constitutional doctrine positing that all executive power resides solely with the President. Goldsmith explains how this theory underpins Trump's attempts to exert unprecedented control over administrative agencies and federal expenditures.

Jack Goldsmith [31:12]: "The unitary executive theory posits that all executive power is vested in the President, allowing unprecedented control over subordinate agencies."

Goldsmith warns of the potential downsides, such as the weaponization of independent agencies like the FCC and the Federal Reserve, which could undermine their intended autonomy and effectiveness.

Supreme Court’s Role and Future Implications

A critical aspect of the episode examines the Supreme Court's potential responses to Trump's expansive executive actions. Goldsmith expresses skepticism about the Court's willingness or ability to effectively check the administration's overreach, especially given the Court's current conservative majority.

Jack Goldsmith [25:07]: "If the Trump administration plays hardball and refuses to negotiate, the Court has very few tools beyond moral authority to compel compliance."

Douthat and Goldsmith ponder the long-term constitutional landscape post-2028, considering scenarios where a Democratic resurgence might counterbalance or fail to adequately constrain the entrenched executive power established during Trump's era.

Jack Goldsmith [62:23]: "If the administration succeeds, the unitary executive will be broader and firmer in constitutional law, significantly expanding presidential control over the executive branch."

Potential Remedies and Democratic Response

The episode concludes with a contemplation of possible remedies, such as congressional legislation to impose stricter limits on presidential power. However, Goldsmith remains doubtful about the feasibility of such measures, citing the difficulty of achieving bipartisan consensus in the current polarized political climate.

Jack Goldsmith [66:54]: "Unless there's a massive bipartisan consensus that there's been failure that needs fixing, it's likely executive power will continue to expand unchecked."

Douthat expresses cautious optimism about American democratic resilience but acknowledges the challenges posed by Trump's unique approach to executive authority.

Ross Douthat [60:58]: "I'm hopeful that American democracy can act as a check on a rogue president, despite the unprecedented consolidation of executive power."

Conclusion

In this incisive episode, Ross Douthat and Jack Goldsmith dissect the multifaceted and aggressive expansion of executive power under Donald Trump. Through detailed analysis and real-world examples, they explore the legal, constitutional, and political ramifications of these actions, painting a complex picture of American governance in a period of significant institutional strain. The discussion underscores the precarious balance between executive authority and institutional checks, raising pertinent questions about the future trajectory of U.S. constitutional governance.

Notable Quotes

• Ross Douthat [01:14]: "Donald Trump is attempting a revolution in executive power, one that whatever happens will probably leave the executive branch dramatically changed."

• Jack Goldsmith [02:22]: "The Trump administration is pushing executive power to unprecedented places in new ways on many dimensions."

• Jack Goldsmith [07:03]: "There's been a significant diminution in legal checks on the President. The courts are currently the only real check, but they are overwhelmed by the administration's aggressive tactics."

• Jack Goldsmith [31:12]: "The unitary executive theory posits that all executive power is vested in the President, allowing unprecedented control over subordinate agencies."

• Jack Goldsmith [25:07]: "If the Trump administration plays hardball and refuses to negotiate, the Court has very few tools beyond moral authority to compel compliance."

• Jack Goldsmith [62:23]: "If the administration succeeds, the unitary executive will be broader and firmer in constitutional law, significantly expanding presidential control over the executive branch."

• Jack Goldsmith [66:54]: "Unless there's a massive bipartisan consensus that there's been failure that needs fixing, it's likely executive power will continue to expand unchecked."

• Ross Douthat [60:58]: "I'm hopeful that American democracy can act as a check on a rogue president, despite the unprecedented consolidation of executive power."