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- [00:00]
A
Dreaming of getting the all new iPhone 17 Pro, designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever.
- [00:05]
B
Then stay in bed and let a Boost Mobile expert deliver and set it up for you.
- [00:09]
A
Oh, actually, they will have to get up and open the door. Oh, right.
- [00:12]
C
Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com terms apply.
- [00:15]
B
Hey, I'm Paige Desorbo and I'm always thinking about underwear.
- [00:18]
C
I'm Hannah Berner and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage. I like to call them my granny panties.
- [00:25]
B
Actually, I never think about underwear. That's the magic of Tommy John.
- [00:30]
C
Same. They're so light and so comfy. And if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.
- [00:33]
B
And the bras, soft, supportive and actually breathable.
- [00:37]
C
Yes. Lord knows the girls need to breathe. Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night. That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.
- [00:48]
B
Plus they're so cute because they fit perfectly. Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John. Save 30% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com comfort See site for details. In the Wooranora Memorial Gardens, where the Levesons held Matt's funeral, there is a doorway of hope set in a peaceful garden. It's a marble sculpture of a door frame with an open door, and it offers a tranquil space to commemorate missing loved ones. The door, set ajar, half open, half closed, symbolises the hope that they may one day return. For families of missing people who are robbed of standard rituals around loss funerals, burials and graves to visit, and the healing that can come from them, it's important to have somewhere to go. Warrenora acknowledges the complex, continual loss that exists in this strange netherworld of unending not knowing.
- [01:55]
A
This is for missing loved ones, where they're gone. And the symbol is the doorway is always ajar. They can come home. And they kind of put a plaque there for Matt. There's one there for Daniel Morcom. Faye's friends got a plaque there as well and some others down there. So it's just a new thing that they've initiated. It's very kind of them.
- [02:13]
B
Was it the Cemeteries Trust that came up with that concept or I think.
- [02:20]
C
Asked us, could we put. Would we mind if they put Matty there? He's no longer with them, but no, he was very helpful. And that was Graham Boyd. Graham Boyd, yeah. When he first approached us, I thought, wonderful, wonderful, yeah. And then, you know, we brought it up at Missing Friends of missing Persons, not to push it down anybody's throat, that let them know that was sort of there if they wanted it. But. And I can understand some people saying, no, that's fine, all that, you know, and I get that. And it's not for everybody, but for those who don't know about it and would like somewhere to go and sit, it's lovely, it's peaceful, you can just go and sit there and it's got the seat there as well. And it's just somewhere to go if you haven't got your loved one.
- [03:11]
B
There are so many people in that position where they don't have anywhere to go and it's a small enough thing for a council to get together. It's just that acknowledgement, I mean, across the board, with policies and legislation and I mean, there's just. Missing persons is this other category. It's too hard, it's always forgotten about. There's not enough attention on it. Before my own brother disappeared, I. I gave the issue no attention at all. I had no idea that over 100 Australians were being reported missing every day, that their families had little to no support, and that on top of the obvious emotional and psychological torment, there were endless legal and administrative obstacles burdening their loved ones for weeks, months and sadly for many years. It was this lack of guidance and support that led ME to found MPAN Missing Persons Advocacy Network in 2013 to create awareness for missing Australians as well as the plight of their families and friends, and to alleviate those practical and emotional challenges that follow a disappearance. Fighting for recognition on a political level takes tenacity and patience. So families are lucky to have people like the Levisons with pushing for change. Like me, they want to see a more consistent approach to markers like National Missing Persons Week, a vital opportunity created by the Jones family in 1988, where the first week of August each year is dedicated to highlighting missing persons and their families.
- [04:53]
C
Even when it's National Missing Persons Week, the publicity towards it seems to be getting less and less. And thank God for you, Nempan. And with the ideas you come up with, because otherwise people just wouldn't know that they might. A little snippet on the news and that's it.
- [05:09]
A
See, I'd alleged a formal complaint because one of the missing persons functions for ffmpu, you know, they've got some fabulous staff there. You would think the person that they answered to, the then Commissioner of Victims Rights, didn't even bother to attend. Years past we had the police commissioner there. That didn't happen one year to their credit, we had Barry o'. Farrell. The premier came along and because he was there, there was lots of press, which is a good thing for it too. Lots of publicity.
- [05:39]
C
He was only there for other years.
- [05:41]
A
You're not getting senior police there and the victims think, do they really care?
- [05:45]
C
You're going through enough as it is. But to be snubbed by the government and they only really pick up on you if they want Browning points. If there's something coming up, the change of government or something that they can get out of it, that's when they want to know you. But when it's just, will you please come along to show that you care? They don't want to know you. And I think it's very rude of them.
- [06:06]
B
The Deputy State Coroner, Elaine Truscott, wrote in her findings that if it was not for Mark and Faye Levison's participation and assistance to the police, this evidence would not have been obtained. Accordingly, she recommended that the Levesons receive an official commendation. But it seems not all coronial recommendations are actioned. The coroner did put in a recommendation that you guys would get a police commendation. That has not yet happened.
- [06:35]
C
It won't be happening.
- [06:36]
A
Surprise, surprise.
- [06:37]
C
I don't think it'll ever happen. I think our name with the New South Wales Police Force is mud. Oh, gosh.
- [06:43]
B
Unbelievable.
- [06:45]
A
As Faye said, we believe our name is not very highly regarded by the police force because, firstly, they wrongly think that we, in a lot of cases, bash police. We do not. We support, respect police and their work. What we do get stuck into is incompetence. We don't tolerate that from any form.
- [07:07]
B
Sometimes families of missing people can feel typecast. The grieving parents standing beside police at press conferences makes for good press. But the people left behind, like their missing loved ones, aren't cardboard cutouts. They have minds of their own. But to the Levesons, the minute they flexed their independence, it felt like the police turned. Like most families, the Levesons began the process assuming police competence. Surely they would know what they were doing. But they started to worry about what they saw as questionable decisions by the police. They had two choices. They could stay silent and not rock the boat, or they could speak out and make complaints. For the Levesons, there was no choice because the stakes were too high. Their son and brother was missing and they were desperate for him to be found. And here, the squeaky wheel rule applied. The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Right from the start, Mark and Faye were fearless advocates for Matt. Hence the coroner's Recommendation for the commendation, the one they are yet to receive. The fear, I think, many families with missing loved ones have is not getting the police offside. So biting your tongue, not complaining about anything, especially in the early days, was that something that you were very wary.
- [08:38]
A
Of from the beginning?
- [08:39]
B
No.
- [08:39]
A
No. We first trusted the police, but after a while, even to untrained people like Faye and I, we started to realise this can't be right. And I started to call them out and we're making strong complaints to the superiors and eventually the police were changed, so we didn't care who he upset. We realised the investigation was not going in a good direction, so we got some good police put on the case after our complaints. But it took our complaints to do that.
- [09:05]
B
Okay, that's good. Because I do think many families, us included, are so worried about getting police offside in the beginning that. That you kind of just. You don't say anything.
- [09:14]
A
We thought, bugger it, you know, if we get them offside, they're not doing a good job now. So what? Let's rip in. True.
- [09:21]
B
Very, very good point. Make no mistake. As strong as The Levesons are, 10 years of protracted suffering, trying to find Matt, all the while working to keep their business afloat and having to fight for things that should have been a given. It took a toll.
- [09:41]
C
The memory's failing. You walk out of a room and I've had things in my hand and I've walked back in the room and they've disappeared and I don't know where I've put them. And you search for days and days and days and then all of a sudden, oh, there they are. Or I'm mid sentence and I'll just stop and stare because the words are inside here, but they ain't coming out. They're. They're just stuck in there. It's sort of like a jigsaw with Mark and I at the moment. He says something, what are you trying to say? Or I'll say something and, you know, gotta decipher what each other's trying to say.
- [10:16]
A
Or odd mood swings as well, for no reason.
- [10:19]
B
Oh, all very normal and understandable and common for people that have gone through extreme and extended periods. Like this was not just a few months or even a few years. More than a decade of that kind of prolonged trauma is immense.
- [10:39]
A
Well, you mentioned the physical too. You know, after the inquest, we didn't care what we ate or drank. We gained large amounts of weight.
- [10:46]
B
Again, very common, very understandable, very normal. I mean, why would you care what you're eating, what you're drinking. An important question for the Levesons and for any family. Going through the prolonged stress and trauma of a missing loved one is what can bring you joy. It's easy to sink into the dark depths of helplessness, sorrow and worry. But self care is critical. And it's so important to experience joy and delight, however fleeting. I mean, over 10 years with so much strain and stress and trauma and rage, how did you create, consciously or subconsciously, moments of joy? What would give you even momentary happiness in those years?
- [11:31]
A
I got great stress relief from going to the gym. Exercising and a weight session or cardio would help relieve some stress.
- [11:41]
C
Walking. Yeah, walking. Walking. And the dogs? The dogs were. They were the godsend. Little bus star. He's been gone two years now, but he was.
- [11:51]
B
He.
- [11:52]
C
He was our special dog. And he was always there. He's just unconditional love. If you felt down, you just gave him a cuddle and you felt down.
- [11:59]
A
Yeah. Nothing.
- [12:00]
C
Yeah, he's just that cuddly bundle of joy that would give you some relief.
- [12:06]
B
Oh, that's sweet. I think it is really important to have. I mean, you've got to have something to get through. But pets in particular are very, very important during such a time. Did you also allow yourselves to have holidays during that period?
- [12:20]
C
Yeah, we did take holidays. But the guilt sets in.
- [12:23]
B
Right.
- [12:23]
C
People say, oh, you're always on holidays, but there's not one holiday that we've had where we didn't feel guilty. We'd get to wherever we were going. And I'm thinking Matt would have liked here. Matt used to love to travel. And we're here, we're enjoying ourselves. He's not. And Matt can't. So no matter where, wherever we go, you get that guilt, and it just doesn't go. You put on your face and you're happy and that. And then in the dark moments when you go to sleep, I could try and go to sleep. Then it, you know, it comes flooding back to you. Or you see something on the beach that reminds you of Maddie and you think, we shouldn't be here.
- [13:04]
A
You can't control that. You know, a sound, a smell, a sight will trigger a memory. You can't control when that can occur anytime, anywhere.
- [13:15]
B
And then there's a residual panic for the loved ones you still have because you know the worst can happen, that reality haunts you. If a family member's late or if you can't contact them, the fear and anxiety can be palpable. But that panic stays with you, I mean, I. A couple of years ago, my wife was at the gym and she was supposed to be home by 8:30 and it got to about 9 and couldn't get through to the phone. No one was picking up at the gym and there was another half hour where. And so I lost my mind. Like I was an absolute wreck. Because that's where I go back to now. Like, if I can't track someone down immediately, I think something's wrong. Exactly. Because that's been proven, especially working in this realm that I do. Things are going wrong all the time and so I'm always on edge, expecting the worst.
- [14:12]
A
Well, many years ago for you and for us. What you think, oh, I'll be okay. What's the chance of anything going wrong? Not anymore.
- [14:20]
C
Even sometimes when Mark. Some areas around the shire, you can't. There's no signal at all down at Grays Point and different areas around the place and usually Mark's none be on time. So if he's late or he gets back late and I can't get him, I panic. I start to think the worst. Only because with Matt, as you say before, it didn't worry me, oh, he's a bit late, he'll be fine. But now something's happened.
- [14:51]
B
It'S always easy to look back with the wisdom of hindsight. What would you change? What would you not change? But even if a missing loved one's disappearance is resolved, that doesn't mean the family gets all the answers. Some things will forever be unknowable. And there comes a time when families have to make peace with that.
- [15:16]
A
In hindsight. Look at what we've done. And could things have been happening, happen sooner? We've learned a lot over the years. And one thing you do realise is that the legal system is not. Well, it's just that it's a legal system, not a justice system. And you can't hurry it. It runs at its own pace. You give it a nudge or a bit of a push here and there, but it doesn't change it a great deal. So beforehand, had we known this outcome, we'd have probably handcuffed him and brought him home. You can't do that. And that would have said get nicked anyway. So that was our concern when we first met Atkins. We couldn't say to Matt, you can't see him, that's his partner, his lover, he'd say, mum. They get nicked and we lose touch with Matt, unfortunately.
- [15:59]
B
And that's to of course put it very, very lightly, but There are still things that are unknown in regards to Matt's fate. Are you. Do you think you're getting better at coping with the not knowing?
- [16:13]
A
Yes. Yes, over time. I mean, you imagine the answers to your questions. How he was killed, why he was killed, where he was killed. We know where his remains were. We believe the why was. If I can have you, nobody else can best guess. We don't know the how. The how is of concern. We don't like to think Matt suffered. He may have. We don't know. We know they're fighting coming home or fighting at Ark before they left the club. The fighting coming home in the car. There could have been confrontation at home in her findings.
- [16:48]
B
The coroner changed the original death certificate from the place of death being Cronulla, where the unit was, to Sydney, because she couldn't say definitively where Matt died.
- [17:00]
A
And so the where and how, we don't know. Which is a shame, because, again, they're macabre questions. But it's like he helps to put a bit of a full stop in the sentence to know those things, and we can't. And the only two people who would know that for sure, I mean, Atkins, if he did tell us, you wouldn't believe anyway, so we've got no chance of finding out. And forensically, we can't get any scientific proof or evidence of how he was killed because these remains were in the ground too long for any test to show anything useful.
- [17:30]
B
Are you or do you think you ever were, and would you consider yourself to have been obsessed with Atkins and the pursuit of ensuring justice was done in regards to him?
- [17:44]
A
Shit, yeah, yeah, Easy answer, easy answer.
- [17:48]
B
But to a point, are you still obsessed?
- [17:50]
A
No, we're more. I'm more relaxed in my life now that Matt's recovered, he's home. Atkins is, I believe, living under a rock. He's not showing his face many places, so it's reassuring that although he's out there still, I think. I'm guessing, I think he's changed his lifestyle to some degree.
- [18:14]
B
Were you ever worried about the obsession totally consuming you?
- [18:22]
A
No. You don't think about that. You've got a focus and a job to do and you go on and do it. That was never a concern.
- [18:29]
B
Have you always had that can do attitude?
- [18:32]
A
Not to this degree, always being dogged and want to get things done, but to this degree, with this circumstance? No, this is more so than anything else.
- [18:42]
B
Well, I think that's the thing, though. You think it's normal. You think it's what any parent would do. But evidently that's not the case. Because when you're in a position like you guys were and are even still now, the strength to maintain that tenacity, that stamina, is phenomenal.
- [19:02]
A
Yeah, well, we see parents who, relatives of missing or of murdered people who literally crawl up in a ball in the corner. I respect that. That's their choice and I have no issue. If they win, that's fine.
- [19:13]
C
That's their way of doing it.
- [19:14]
A
But we always felt if we ever did that, then Atkins has got us too, and that was never going to happen.
- [19:19]
B
So that's what drove you?
- [19:20]
C
Yeah, we didn't want him to win. He thought he'd won, but we didn't want him to have the advantage because he was never going to win against us. Not for finding Mattie.
- [19:32]
B
Back at the Royal national park, in that very last hour of searching, someone pointed to the cabbage palm tree and suggested pulling it up to look beneath. Looked to be the offspring of a bigger cabbage palm behind it. The child before the parent. It could have grown there in the years Matt had been missing. The cabbage palm was pulled up and Matt's remains were unearthed.
- [19:59]
A
Well, the palm was as I bought here by Fay and I with the covered in the crime scene tape and placed in the yard. And one day we were talking on here to Ben Fordham on his show on tgb. And Ben knew we had no gardening skills at all. And he was just talking to the callers coming in on other days and over the next few weeks. And one gentleman, his name was Chris Slaughter from Scenic Blue Design. Chris offered to design a garden makeover for us. And Ben thought the idea was great. They started talking on ear and the more they talked, the more other callers called in offering their labor, their materials. So they did a full on garden makeover around Matt's palm. And in a long weekend, we had people here. We had tree loppers to get trees out the way. There was nurseries gave materials like you wouldn't believe. Plants and mulch and supplies of hardwood for the pergola furnishings. They had people who brought out mobile fridges for the weekend. Wingman supplied 20 plus cases of beer. They've seen so much beer. There was catering, people bought in lunches each day for us as well. There was even safety people. There's high vis gear, goggles and things. And it was so professionally and thoroughly done in this very, very short period. So these, you know, these warriors, we just want to pay them tribute and their eternal thanks for what they did for us on that weekend.
- [21:36]
C
A big thank you. Because we can never thank them enough. We were so humbled. We weren't expecting it. All we wanted was a bit of advice on how to keep the palm alive.
- [21:47]
B
Closure is a social construct. There's no nice, neat way to wrap an experience like the Levesons up and move on. There's only learning to live with the loss as best as you can. There is no right or wrong way. It's totally individual. It's strange when you're in this limbo where even with all of the evidence, you can be logical enough to think it's most likely that Matt's not coming back. And you've still got his things.
- [22:23]
C
And we've still got them now.
- [22:24]
B
And you've still got them now. Gosh. And what about his bedroom? Did you leave it? Or was it already? Because he'd moved out.
- [22:31]
C
He'd moved out. He left his bed here, which Jason, when he moved into the bedroom, he had that, but with age. Cause it was a false leather bed. In true Matty's style. I still got his bedspread and. And that. And his room, still the colours. He had it. And his pictures are still up on the wall. They haven't been taken down, but. And then we've got all these things that we got back from Atkins. And on that point, he had. Peter had given him his IKEA wardrobe. You know how sturdy those IKEA wardrobes are not. And we said, yatkins, we've got a trailer. And we said, don't pull the wardrobe down. We'll take that in one piece. He pulled it down and then he put cloth, tape, round pieces to hold it together, which was still parts of it. We couldn't get the cloth tape off. So he. In actual fact, he wrecked the wardrobe. I mean, we've still got it, but. Yeah, if he just left it in one piece, it would have been in a better condition than what it is. He just did everything he could, I think, just to. He had the power. And I think that's what it was. It was a power play with him. He'd send back Matty's stuff, dribs and drabs in those market bags. Till that police detective came on and said that they shouldn't be doing that. So then we had to go over and get his staff. I just kept everything in there, hoping. In the early days, I knew. I did know he was dead in my heart. I knew there was just that little piece that. That I had to have that hope. Even I knew we were gonna find Remains. And not him alive, but that little bit of hope I just had to keep on to clinging. I can't count the number of times I used to just go in there and hold something of his just so I could smell him. Earlier on, I had Elizabeth Arden green tea. Yes.
- [24:33]
B
I'm ashamed to admit it, but I love that smell.
- [24:36]
C
I love that smell, too. And I went to use it one morning, I couldn't find it. Matt had snaffled it. Matt was using my Elizabeth Arden green tea. So even to this day, I've got to put it on. I wear it, but I wear my other perfume as well. But I've got to just put a touch of it on my ankle. I cannot leave this house without putting that on.
- [25:00]
B
Matt's dearest friends still keep in touch with the Levesons after all these years. Just the day before we spoke, they'd had a phone call from the uk.
- [25:10]
C
One of Maddie's, Wally's best friend, had a couple of those. And he often rings us and we have chats and it's just so really nice to hear from him. And.
- [25:24]
A
Well, more than special, this particular friend.
- [25:26]
C
Is like a brother to.
- [25:27]
A
This particular friend was one of the boys that we'll call him. He's a man. We'll call him a boy. One of the boys that Atkins suggested to police. Matt was with on the Sunday night. That's why he hadn't come home.
- [25:42]
C
That wasn't the case. But he's stuck by us, thick and thin. He didn't care if his name came out, he didn't care if he got a pseudonym or not. He's just stuck by us. And every time there's a butterfly or something that reminds me. Reminds him of Matty, lets us know he's living his life. And, you know, in places that he know Matt would have loved, he just messages us. And yesterday when he phoned us, he was out in the forest somewhere and we played Take Me to the Clouds above. And he was dancing and Mark and I were dancing in the lounge room. There's just special moments like that.
- [26:33]
B
When you drop a rock into the middle of a pond, the ripples move outward in ever increasing circles. Once the rock is dropped, you can't contain the ripples, nor can you change them. There were moments in time, though, that if one thing was done differently, the rock could have stayed out of the water. It's a rabbit hole of what ifs. What if Atkins had have been cautioned properly in his interview? And the whole thing, Bunnings and all, was Admissible. What if Atkins was found guilty and put in prison? What if Matt had never met Atkins? But as all families of missing people know, the what if game is the fool's errand. For the Levesons, the ultimate choice always seemed clear. Atkins in jail and no Matt Atkins free. And Matt comes home.
- [27:33]
A
Now, keep in mind, though, I still think back and wonder now, did the jury do us a favour? Because if Atkins was found guilty, he'd probably still be inside now. We'd lucky be dead, but he'd still be serving time. And we wouldn't have Matt back because he got out. We had the inquest and with all the events that followed that, we got Matt back. So if he'd been found guilty, we mightn't have Matt.
- [28:01]
B
It's a good way to imagine things, yeah. When people die, they can live on in the memories of those who love them. Every time Mark and Faye talk about Matt, and every time Faye enjoys a cocktail and says wistfully, matty would have liked that their son lives on. And when families continue to share those memories, others remember them too. Yeah, I remember Mum making comments about how it felt good when total strangers would escape, especially, you know, after years and years and years that Dan had been missing and then was found and then there was a funeral and even when we went to the coroner's court once for some reason, because there was never an inquest, but when Mum would see, I think there were some photographers or something at the coroner's court that day, and she said something like, I'm glad to feel as if Dan is still important to other people, to total strangers.
- [29:05]
C
That's right.
- [29:05]
A
Yeah.
- [29:06]
C
It's a nice feeling. It really is. It's a comfort, in a funny sort of way, that people do genuinely care after you've been through so much heartache. And so it's nice to see that there are people out there that actually do genuinely care, even though they didn't know you. They just want to say, you know, I'm sorry, and give you a hug and that. And that's lovely.
- [29:29]
B
And it continues, I mean, even now. I mean, here we are, Matt's no longer missing, but, you know, we're doing a podcast about it. Like, it carries on and do you feel like you'll get to a point where you're like, I'm done. You know, we've done it enough. Everything that we need to say has been said and you kind of want to step away?
- [29:49]
A
Everything we do and say is really like a tribute to Matt. So it's in his honour. So we're pleasing. It's a pleasure to do it. I'm happy to. And so I can't without stopping. Oh, we got breath. We'll keep his name alive.
- [30:26]
B
Painting.
- [30:38]
C
Boost mobile punto com diesel mesros primeros dos mesas despisement.