← Max Politics
Max Politics
Darializa Avila Chevalier on Her Campaign for Congress in NY-13
00:58:22
Darializa Avila Chevalier, a Democrat and democra…
Loading summary
Transcript59 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:08]
B
Hello and welcome to Max Politics. This is Ben. Max, thanks for tuning in. Speaking here on Tuesday, May 12, 2026 and the June primary elections are coming up fast. Early voting is basically a month away, depending on when you might be listening to this even Sooner. That'll be June 13th through June 21st and primary day is June 23rd. There's also voting by mail on of course, all of the state legislature is on the ballot this year and also all of New York State's 26 House seats. Much of the action in New York City is of course, in the Democratic primaries and there are several competitive and high profile Congressional races unfolding here on the show. I've been joined by the three leading candidates running in New York's 7th congressional district primary. That's the race to succeed the retiring Representative Nydia Velasquez, representing parts of Brooklyn and Queens, a field led by three sitting elected officials, Antonio Reynoso, Claire Valdez and Julie Wan. I've also been joined by the two leading candidates in New York's 10th congressional district primary that covers parts of Manhattan and Brooklyn. That's Congressman Dan Goldman and his challenger Brad Lander. And I posted to the feed here the audio of a candidate forum I moderated among some, but not all of the Democrats running to succeed the retiring Representative Jerry Nadler in New York's 12th congressional district in Manhattan. Today on the show, we're diving into another interesting primary. I'll be joined shortly by Darielisa Avila Chevalier, a Democrat and Democratic Socialist running to unseat Congressman Adriano Espaillat in New York's 13th congressional district, which includes Upper Manhattan and a section of the Bronx. As you'll hear in the conversation ahead, Avila Chevalier is challenging Espaillat from his left. She's part of a youth movement of leftist Democrats and Democratic Socialists and has been an issue for focused and political organizer. She led some Upper Manhattan volunteer work for the campaign of Zoram Mamdani in last year's mayoral election and has been pretty deeply enmeshed with the New York City branch of the Democratic Socialists of America NYC dsa and she has the endorsement of NYC DSA in this race as well as some other organizations and elected officials on the progressive and socialist left, though she has yet to get the backing of Mayor Mamdani, who did very well in this 13th congressional district in last year's mayoral election. But he may not want to endorse against Espaillat, who is a longtime member of Congress and a trailblazing Dominican American representative I'll ask her about that in the conversation ahead and we'll get into a whole lot of policy and her platform and her case against Espaillat, who has held the seat since 2017, and he was previously in the state Legislature for many years. This district includes the neighborhoods of East Harlem, Central Harlem, Morningside Heights, Washington Heights, Inwood and other parts of Upper Manhattan, and then in the Bronx. It includes Marble Hill, Kingsbridge, Fordham, University of Heights, Bedford park and some surrounding areas. Like all of New York State's 26 House districts, it has roughly 775,000 residents. Not all of them can vote, of course, but overall the district is roughly 52% Hispanic, 23% black, 15% white and 5% percent Asian. But according to analysis of the voter file coming out of last year's mayoral election done by writer and analyst Michael Lang, the 2025 mayoral primary vote in the 13th Congressional District showed a very young and diverse electorate that was roughly 34% Hispanic, 31% white and 27% black. Now, the result in the June 2025 mayoral primary within this 13th Congressional District of Upper Manhattan and a slice of the bro in the first round of voting. In the primary, Mamdani got 47% of the vote to Andrew Cuomo's 34%, and Brad Lander came in third at 9%. After the ranked choice voting tally, it was Mamdani 60% and Cuomo 40%. Then in the general election, which again, we're really focused on the primary election here, and this is a heavily, heavily Democratic district anyway. But in the general election for mayor last year, this district went Mamdani 65%, Cuomo 31% and Sliwa 3.5%. Now, interestingly, Congressman Espaillat had endorsed Andrew Cuomo in the primary, but as soon as Mamdani won that primary, Espaillat endorsed him in the general election pretty quickly afterward, leaving Cuomo behind as many endorsers of Cuomo did for the general election, although Cuomo of course, kept running and made it a pretty close race. Other interesting political trends in this New York York 13 district is like a lot of other districts in New York City and elsewhere. It shifted a lot in the presidential elections of recent cycles, going from in the 2016 election, a Hillary Clinton 92% district to in the 2024 presidential election, a Kamala Harris 68% district. So Donald Trump's share of the vote went from 5% in 2016 up to 30% in 2024. So again, mirroring some other trends that we saw in New York City, where Trump increased his margin over the course of his three presidential races. Espion, for his part, the last time he was really challenged in a primary was back in 2020, and he got 59% of the vote against two relatively unknown challengers. So not a particularly strong showing there. But he has been an uptown institution for quite a while and has a political machine up there that will be challenging to defeat. But there's a lot of optimism on my guest's part and her campaign. You'll hear that from her in a moment. And I'm hopeful that Congressman Espaillatt will join me on the show soon. Very briefly, if you've missed any recent episodes of the show, a few highlights include I had state Senate Deputy Leader Michael Genaros of Queens come on with a really good breakdown of state budget negotiations and discussion of how Mayor Mandani's agenda was faring in Albany. I also mentioned I posted the audio of the New York 12 candidate forum. And then separately, I did a recent episode with journalist David Friedlander about the New York 12 primary just after his New York magazine cover story on the race ran. So we really dug into the 12th congressional district primary, the race to replace Jerry Nadler with four prominent candidates really seemingly at the front of the that field, including assembly members Micah Lasher and Alex Boris, as well as Jack Schlossberg and George Conway. So those are a few examples. Lots of other good ones in the podcast feed if you've missed any, but for after you listen to this one. All right. I'm very pleased to welcome to Max Politics Darielisa Avila Chevalier, a Democrat running for Congress in New York's 13th congressional district, challenging Congressman Adriano Espaillat in a district that covers much of upper Manhattan and a section of the Bronx. It includes East Harlem, Harlem, Washington Heights, Inwood and moves across into the Bronx for a few neighborhoods there that I went over in the introduction. Thanks for joining me. How are you today?
- [07:34]
A
I'm doing really well. Thank you so much for having me.
- [07:36]
B
Thanks for taking the time. We are we're getting into crunch time here. Six weeks basically till primary day, a month till early voting. So this is getting into the home stretch here. Before we get into the race, will you just give a brief bio of yourself, a little overview so people who are unfamiliar get a sense of who you are, where you come from. Just give us a little overview, if you don't mind.
- [08:00]
A
Yeah. Well, as you said, my name is Dari Lisa. I am an Afro, Latina daughter of Dominican immigrants running for Congress here in New York. 13. I have been living and organizing here my entire adult life. I deeply, deeply love this district. It's my home. And I am someone who has also felt abandoned, like so many in our community, by our current leadership. And you know, I'm running because I deeply care about this community and I think that we deserve leadership that is actually responsive to the working people who live here. I actually never thought that I would run. I was recruited by my community. My community nominated me to Justice Democrats. And you know, once I got past the initial shock of that, I thought deeply about what it could mean for our community. As someone who has been organizing here my entire adult life as we're facing this onslaught of fascism and what it could, it could mean for folks here, particularly in a time that is going to require so much more bravery from every single one of us to be able to face this onslaught of fascism and the demands that we are, that we need to organize at scale to meet this moment and knowing that that's going to require more bravery from every single person in our community. And you know, when, when I was asked to consider running, I kept coming back to this question of how can I ask my community members to be braver in this moment if I myself am not willing to be brave and step into this role? And I think as someone who has felt neglected, who has seen my community be neglected by leadership for so long, you know, it felt enough was enough and it's time that we actually have leadership that's present that understands the needs of the working people in this community. And you know, folks who have been here can feel that they are represented, their values are represented in every level of government.
- [10:02]
B
I want to come back to a few things you said, but what was your hesitation? Why, why, why were you hesitant to run? Why didn't you see yourself? I mean, you're doing a lot of organizing work, a lot of sort of issue organizing, political organizing. What was the hesitation?
- [10:17]
A
Yeah, I mean, I've been organizing around, you know, ending mass incarceration, around getting folks out of ICE detention and abol ICE and doing a lot of Palestine work for my entire adult life, essentially. And I think of the relationship between organizing and government as one where we've had to do this issue based organizing for so long because we've been abandoned by our representatives. This district deserves someone who shows up for it every single day, not someone who's been absent, who's passed no consequential legislation by many community members since we launched this campaign that this is the first time that the incumbent has shown up and spoken to them. And I believe them because that was the case for me as an organizer. We've approached his office on numerous occasions, on numerous issues, and it wasn't until we launched this campaign that there was any kind of response from his. From his office.
- [11:26]
B
Now, he has a. He has a reputation for having a very active district presence, a lot of, you know, constituent services going on, a lot of people out doing that work that in your experience, that's not the case. The reputation hasn't. That hasn't been the reality.
- [11:42]
A
In my experience, when I reached out personally to meet with his office, I was never given any kind of meeting. And my friends and fellow organizers who have tried to meet with him, same story when, you know, my friend Khalil was. Was kidnapped by ice. He turned away his. His family and our friends, both of whom, you know, groups have tried to meet with him, and nothing like he was just completely silent. And, you know, I think that speaks not only to the lack of presence in our. In the community, but also to a lack of foresight on the way that, like the. The issues that impact the people who live here, how that impacts communities across the country. Right. I think with Mahmoud's case in particular, as the chair of the chc, as somebody who claims to advocate for immigrant communities across the country, to willfully ignore someone like Mahmoud and his case and leave it to other representatives to actually advocate for him, I think shows a lack of not just moral clarity and leadership in that moment, but also a lack of understanding of how this impacts other immigrant communities across the country. You know, eight days after Mahmoud was taken, you see over 200 Venezuelan migrants being sent to a concentration camp in El Salvador. So I think, you know, the lack of willingness to fight right for our communities has been very blatant.
- [13:20]
B
I want to come back to more of the district issues, but just to continue a tiny bit more on your background, your most recent work, I don't know if you're still doing it or you've taken a leave to campaign, as people often do, but you were working as an investigator supporting the work of public defenders. Will you just say a little bit about what that work entails and what it means? And I know that's also led you to union membership and organizing, but separate from that, the day to day of the work, what does it mean to be an investigator supporting public defender work?
- [13:54]
A
Yeah. So, you know, that work was. Is deeply meaningful to me. I am taking a leave to focus on the campaign. But I work with public defenders who are providing legal representation to folks who can't afford a lawyer. And working specifically here in this community where my office represents folks who live above 96th Street. Right. And you know, the work I do, I spend a lot of time in bodegas in NYCHA buildings, in anywhere that like incidents happen where folks now need legal representation for. And so I spend a lot of time talking to community members and being in the spaces of New York that often get ignored. Right. It's the basements, it's the, you know, the back of the restaurant or the bodega. Right. Talking to people who often get overlooked. And I will say, you know, that I came to that job after working on my PhD for a really long time. I was actually working towards a career in academia. I was teaching at Lehman for many years, taught at NYU as a TA and at Barnard. And you know, at Lehman I, you know, taught many of the classes where I was on the instructor, on record. And I love teaching. I thought that's what I was going to spend my life doing it. For me, the love I have for organizing was the love I had for teaching because it felt very tied. But you know, it got to a point where it was unaffordable. I essentially got priced out of the career that I had been working towards. And I was still working on my PhD actually while working as an investigator. I was dissertating and, and I'm also on leave from, from that, from the dissertation.
- [15:50]
B
But you know, so this investigative work, it's, it's. There's a client who has a public defender and you're going to sort of try to figure out what really happened to help build the case for the public defender that the client has been assigned.
- [16:05]
A
And essentially, yeah, I, I talked to the various parties, right. In the, in the case. I try to collect video, I try to just get an understanding of what happened in the case to help support, you know, the attorneys.
- [16:23]
B
So connect, connect that work which is on the ground. Sociology to an extent. Right. And your PhD work in sociology. What are some, you know, what are one or two of the major, you know, social trends right now, especially in communities you're looking to represent in Congress that are sort of most in need of attention.
- [16:46]
A
Yeah, so. And thank you for connecting that because I, folks don't often see the connection there. You know, I, it is very sociological in nature that, that job where I'm, I'm talking to folks about their day to day lives and connecting it to a Larger structure and system. Right. And in terms of my, my research as a sociologist, I, My dissertation was focusing on the process by which people are brought to deportation through contact with the criminal system. And what I think a lot of folks don't realize is that a lot of the immigrant communities in New York are actually impacted by, back by the immigration system in that particular way. And you know, so my, my dissertation was, was looking at, you know, we talk a lot about the anti blackness inherent in, in the criminal system. Right. But we don't talk often about how that then translates into our immigration system. And so I, that was what the focus of my dissertation was when I was or is while I'm still writing and hopefully one day I'll finish it. But.
- [17:57]
B
And is any of that evaluating how New York City's sanctuary laws are working and not working in practice?
- [18:05]
A
Exactly. And, and what we found, you know, and what I argue is that like the, like ice, for example, as an institution, it needs to be abolished because there's no reforming this institution. Right. It is essentially a method of law enforcement that only applies to people based on where they were born. It is inherently discriminatory against immigrants. Right. Even if we're talking about folks who have faced contact with the criminal system, you are really only subject to its type of enforcement on the basis of where you were born. And so I just think we already have a system, we already have a criminal system as complicated and flawed as it is, and we can have a really long discussion on that. But I just think it is deeply troubling that we've accepted for over 20 years that there is this other institution that is incarcerating people simply on the basis of where they were born. And I'm older than ice. I've lived in a world where ICE didn't exist. And we need to stop spending our resources on an institution like this.
- [19:23]
B
And isn't a good bit of it also depending on some of the, some of that interaction with the criminal system in terms of, for example, New York City's sanctuary laws, where the city would cooperate with immigration enforcement if someone is convicted of a whole list of crimes.
- [19:43]
A
Yeah. And what we find is that that list of crimes is actually very, very vast. And it includes things that most of us would just be like, you know, like, you know, and when they're in the sociology world of immigration, you know, they're. The way that they're termed legally is called aggravated felonies, but that doesn't mean they're A felonies or B aggravated in any way. Right. What makes them aggravated felonies, quote, unquote, is just that it was somebody who was an immigrant. Right. So inherently, we're already otherizing people who have gone. Who have already gone through a system. Right. But we're only doing it because they were born elsewhere. And, you know, I just. I just think there are so many other ways to ensure that we are protecting our communities, that. To make sure that our communities are actually thriving. And what we're. We're finding is that this system is having a really disastrous ripple effect on our entire community. Right. We are making it so that now the vast majority of people who are brought into ICE detention are people who don't have any kind of conviction at all or any kind of contact with law enforcement. We're making it so that now, you know, it's not just people who were born elsewhere, but also their families, their kids, their loved ones who are now facing the repercussions of ice. Right. Some of whom are themselves being detained even when they're citizens. Right.
- [21:13]
B
So what's your sort of line on who should be removed from the country if they're convicted of certain crimes? You. I mean, is that. Is that a framework that you agree with at all, that, you know, if someone isn't in the country, isn't. Isn't a documented citizen of the country and is convicted, not just accused, but convicted of certain, I don't know, violent crimes or, you know, felony crimes, that. That they should be removed to the country? Or do you have a different system in mind?
- [21:44]
A
You know, I think about immigration in the way that I think about any other kind of civil administrative system. I really deeply believe that immigrant communities should not have to face an administration or administrative system that inherently criminalizes them from the very beginning. It should be as simple as going to the dmv, right, to get access to the resources you need to be integrated into our community. I just inherently find these systems criminalizing from the start before folks even arrive in this country. And I think when we talk about safety, like to have to jump to that question, I think makes a lot of assumptions. The premise of it is that there's something inherently unsafe about immigrant communities, which I reject because I think not at all. And I understand where the question's coming from because I do think, you know, folks have questions about, like, safety and all of that, and those are really valuable questions, but they apply regardless of whether a person was born in this country or not.
- [22:52]
B
Yeah, I'm more just taking. I understand your sort of platform and perspective on abolishing ICE and reforming the system. And I know that that is obviously a set of sort of top priorities, especially for Democrats in this time and this, the Trump administration era, ICE actions that you've been talking about, obviously what we saw in Minnesota, a variety of things. I'm just sort of trying to take it to. If you get the progress that you're looking for, if you get immigration reform, sort of. What's your line on the other end of, of that? Let me come, come to the race here a little bit more. You talked a little bit about this sort of sense in the district, at least from you and other people, you know, and other, you know, organizers and activists and so forth, that Congressman Espellat has not been as respons you think he should be. You talked about being recruited by Justice Democrats to run in this race. Was was it your sense that there was a groundswell in the district of people feeling like the congressman really needs to go or there should really be a strong challenge or replacement? Or is this more of people seeing political trends shifting and an opportunity for a more progressive representation in a district that, that in many cases have been voting more progressive, as we saw in the last mayoral election, with how well Mayor Mamdani did in this district. Is your sense that there was sort of a frustration with the congressman growing on the ground, or is it more that here's a political opportunity and we need to make the case that there should be a frustration with him?
- [24:28]
A
Yeah, no, I have sensed that frustration for a very, very long time. Not just myself and like the organizing circles that I was in, but just like folks on the ground. Right. I started canvassing for Xeron last year around February, early February, I think it was. And time after time when we asked folks about, like in this case, Cuomo as a politician that folks really didn't trust or felt, you know, wasn't serving them or active in the community. The name that would come up often without prompting was Espads as like another example of a politician who has been entrenched in politics and yet nowhere to be found in the actual community. And you know, and I think the, the, the fact that SBA endorsed Cuomo in the primary and then the district went towards Iran by 19 points speaks to that. Right. It speaks to the fact that folks wanted a new type of politics. Politics that shows that, you know, our government actually cares about the working people who live here, not the special interests and corporations that fund, you know, the incumbents campaign. Right. And so, you know, in, I think here, you know, folks are showing that they are determined to show that last year was not a fluke, that these are politics that we want to see in government, that we want our values represented in government. And, and you know, thanks to all of the volunteers that we have in this campaign, all the folks who have really been supporting us, supporting us, we are showing that. I think, you know, Aspire is. Is running around, I would say, scared because he's like, showing up to these communities that he has not been showing up for. And, you know, all of a sudden, folks are thanking me, saying, wow. And in the nine years that he has been in Congress, in the 30, almost 30 years that he's been in political office, you know, folks, folks haven't heard from him, right? Hasn't been a presence in the community. And it shouldn't take having to be challenged, right. For that to have happened. It should have been from the onset, like anyone who takes for granted the responsibility of the seat is not someone who should be in that seat.
- [26:54]
B
You're in the seat right now. What would be the two biggest differences in the way that you would approach the job of being in the House of Representatives representing this district will be the two or three biggest changes in policy priorities or perspective or voice that you would bring to the seat. How. How do you make this sort of very concrete for people in terms of the differences between the two of you on the nuts and bolts of being the congressperson?
- [27:21]
A
Well, I mean, I think two things. For one, like, I'm an organizer. That is, that is how I orient my thinking around so much of this. And, and that means, you know, in governing, you have co governance is key, right? You have to actually have a relationship with the communities that you are serving. Right. If you don't have that relationship with them, how can you ever trust that the policies that you're pushing forward, that the messages that you're trying to. To platform on such an important stage, right. That they are actually reflective of what the community needs and wants. And so even when, you know, when we started this campaign, the first thing I said was, we have to build a really strong and broad coalition here to make sure that those relationships are starting now to make sure that we are not waiting until I'm in office and trying to find my footing in a space as hostile as Congress to then make the relationships with some of these partners. By then it's too late. And I think as a sociologist, I think a lot about social structures and I think a lot about what it means to have representation that is accountable to the people and accountable to our movements. And so I am deeply grateful to all the folks who have joined our coalition. I'm deeply grateful to all the folks who I know are going to join our coalition because that is part of what it means to co govern. And in terms of priorities in legislation, the Congressman has passed four bills and this the entire time he's been in Congress and three of them were about renaming post offices and sorry, I'm blanking on what the last one was, but it was something similar. It was renaming something else that is just not reflective of leadership that's effective. It's not reflective of leadership that's willing to fight. And you know, it wasn't until he was challenged that we saw him starting to co sponsor a lot of the bills and legislation that folks in this district desperately need and deserve. Right. And so, you know, those are things that day one I would be signing on to like things like Medicare for all, to make sure that folks here actually have access to healthcare. Making sure we're fighting to invest in nycha, to make sure that we are protecting public housing and reinvesting in it, to make it a dignified place to live. Making sure that we're fighting for housing for all, investing in our communities and our kids, running on both a framework and a platform of babies, not bombs, of making sure that our tax dollars actually come back to our communities as opposed to these constant and endless wars. We pay so much in taxes as a community and yet we're the second poorest district in New York State and by some measures in the country. Right. And so it's time that we actually have represented representation that is fighting for our investments, our tax dollars to come back to our communities in the way of eradicating childhood poverty, funding our schools from cradle to college, deeply understanding that our budgetary priorities are the reflection of our moral priorities. And if we're not fighting for our communities here, what's the point of any of this?
- [30:52]
B
Now I know your critique that the Congressman hasn't passed, you know, his own sort of lead legislation, but the things you're sort of citing are also things where it's more of a sign on situation, it's more of funding priorities that you try to get into a big spending package. You know, a lot of times members of Congress, even some of the most effective are not passing their own sort of standalone bills on these things. Yeah. Isn't that fair to say?
- [31:16]
A
I mean it's fair to say, but I also think the lack of effort is until there was a challenge right Speaks volumes. So, you know, for me it really is about, you know, how, how hard are you fighting for our community?
- [31:29]
B
What is when you talk about eradicating poverty, what would be the top priority in terms of addressing the needs in this district and other districts with high poverty rates? What would that top policy or top couple of policies be? I know you talked about childcare or you have it in your platform. Is that sort of number one is more federal funding for child care or what's at the sort of top of the list when you think about again, sort of systemic approaches to eradicating poverty?
- [32:02]
A
Yeah. You know, when we had during the pandemic the child tax credit, it really brought childhood poverty to historic lows, which to me highlighted. We've always had the means, We've always had the means to eradicate childhood poverty. What we lack is the political will, people who are willing to fight for that. And so on the basis of eradicating childhood poverty, for me it really means having a multi pronged approach. You know, expanding the child tax credit. The fact that we ended the program after the pandemic, you know, that in itself was cruel and should have never happened, but expanding it to make sure that we are actually providing families the resources that they need to make decisions about how so they can make the rent, they can pay for the groceries, because I just don't think any child should have to live through the indignity of poverty. Making sure that we're also fighting for housing for all. And part of that has to do with fighting for a green new deal for public housing. There are over 500,000 New Yorkers who live in NYCHA housing who we have allowed to live in such undignified conditions that we should all feel such deep shame over.
- [33:18]
B
Let me ask you about that. Obviously there's reason always for representatives from New York City especially, and especially in districts with a lot of NYCHA developments to say we have to go to Congress and get tens of billions of dollars in funding support. That's the only level of government that that kind of investment is going to come for. And of course, you know, there's lots of reason that makes sense to say that would be a priority. Fighting for that, even when Democrats have run all branches of government in D.C. you know, we haven't seen that kind of money come for nycha. We've seen some increased investment at times in different methods now of, of bringing in, you know, sort of capital dollars for nycha, but it doesn't seem like we're anywhere near the notion that tens of billions of dollars are going to flow to the city even if Democrats have the White House and both houses of Congress. Do you have other sort of compromises in your view or even top priorities for how you see sort of that funding coming to nycha? There's obviously it's not in this district you're looking to represent, but there is this model going on on the west side of Manhattan related to tearing down buildings that are basically falling apart around their tenants, building new NYCHA housing on the campus, and then also infill development that's mixed income to support the development of the new NYCHA buildings. Is that a model that you see as promising? Is that something you have concerns about? Do you have other ideas for how to bring in money that's not. Not just go to Washington and get the tens of billions of dollars that seems unlikely to come?
- [34:57]
A
Yeah, you know, I think part of the reason why we're not seeing that money come in is because of the corporate real estate lobby. You know, my opponent has taken almost a quarter million dollars from the corporate real estate lobby. Right. Folks lack the political will here because they are funded by the very people who profit from this disinvestment in nycha. And you know, I think, I just think it's really time that we stop trying to do away and write off NYCHA as a community that there's just no hope for, because that's just not the case. NYCHA is a sleeping giant. Like, there are again, There are over 500,000 people who live in NYCHA and they could determine every single election in the city if they wanted to. Right. We need to actually make sure that we are investing in them and prioritizing them, not just because they can win elections, but because they are New Yorkers who deserve a dignified life and who deserve representation that's going to fight for them. And I get why NYCHA residents are so deeply distrustful of the idea of politicians coming in and giving the funding that's necessary because they've not had that for decades. Right.
- [36:16]
B
Like, I mean, this is something that strikes me though. You get, you get a plan like this one in, in Chelsea and understand residents fears about it, understand concerns. But when you have people who oppose it or who've opposed, you know, other mechanisms, again, you know, turning NYCHA residents over to private management, you know, still public housing, but private management to bring in revenue for repairs, people oppose that. Again, understand a lot of the concerns around that, but nobody really has another plan other than get the tens of billions of dollars from the Federal government that again, doesn't seem on the verge of coming. Maybe stronger fighters can go and get it. And there's always the possibility of a huge federal spending plan that you can get it into. They tried, obviously, in the, you know, some of the infrastructure bills that have been passed in the past and pandemic relief and things like that, and it always kept getting kicked out. So that's where I'm sort of, you know, I wind up at a loss talking to elected officials and candidates at the city level, state level, federal level. It's like, all right, well, what's the plan then? You know, and this idea in Chelsea, while people have concerns about looks like, you know, brand new NYCHA housing, plus some additional new housing to address the city's housing crisis, it seems like a decent model to at least consider if you're not getting those tens of billions of dollars from, from Washington.
- [37:38]
A
Yeah. So I, you know, I'll, I think there's two parts to that question. One is like, what's the vision? Right. And then why, why is this model not the model, the model that is currently happening in Chelsea and Red Hook or, you know, where folks are trying to find a solution in the immediate. Right. And I think, you know, part of why NYCHA residents are like so distrustful of this PAC program, it's because they've seen time and time again how, you know, we hand off our public programs to these market solutions. Right. And they end up being band aids that end up actually making the situation worse. So often, you know, I, NYCHO was supposed to be a permanent home for people. It was supposed to be a pathway to the middle class. It was supposed to be a place where people could raise their families with dignity, not a stepping stone into something else. And we need to go back to that vision of what it was supposed to be, a pathway for people to live a middle class life and raise their families. We need a public option. A public option needs to be something that is not just accessible but fully funded, not just here in New York, but across the country. My understanding of how the PACT program is, is like the vision for it. Right. Is that it, you know, brings, brings Section 9 housing into Section 8 and starts to privatize it. Right. And that, and starting to use it as a stepping stone for something, quote, unquote, better.
- [39:14]
B
You know, that is inherent privatizing the management. Yeah. There's, there's questions about does that lead to higher eviction rates and things like that. I don't know that, you know, the jury's in yet on that, but it still, still remains public housing. But, but, but I think a lot
- [39:31]
A
of folks are deeply concerned what it means when you are displacing them. Right. In order to rebuild these, these homes. Which listen, I, I completely understand the need for, for rebuilding some of these homes altogether like they are, some of them are so structurally unstable it is hazardous to keep folks in these buildings things. The, but the solution I think needs to be one that involves the community. Right? It, like I think of the human impact of so many of our elders who live in NYCHA who have to relocate for these, these repairs and rebuildings.
- [40:09]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. And even, even if you're. Even for building brand new housing that they get to move into. It's, it's, it's, it's not necessarily a solution.
- [40:17]
A
Exactly. And, and you know, and I think about like their concerns of like will I still like have my home after it's built? Like will it be mine and will I have the right to pass on my lease to my, my children, my grandchildren? There are people who have lived in NYCHA their entire lives who want to, who were raised in nycha. Right. Who want to be able to continue to live in these communities because that is, that is their community who they don't see themselves living anywhere else in the city because those are the people who they love and care about. And so I think, you know, the solution here and the vision that like I'm advocating for is, is for a green New deal for public housing. Because I think if we are actually investing in public housing in a way that allows for folks to have a dignified union job and be part of the process of, of rebuilding nycha, like just think of the psychological impact of that to, to be someone who has suffered with finding employment and then you are trained to do the work of rebuilding your community and then walking out your door every single morning and seeing the kids playing on the swing set that you help build. Right. Like that to me is not just like the, a vision that allows us to have people live in dignified housing. It's also a vision that allows us to bring people into economic stability, into like a middle class. Not just this thing that we had where we gave people a dignified home and then let those homes be in such a disrepair for decades that we now have to tear those buildings down to rebuild them.
- [41:58]
B
Let me ask you one more housing question then I want to ask you a little bit about the politics of the race and then I'll let you go. But I appreciate all the time and thoughts here, separate from NYCHA and housing, this district has seen a lot of gentrification, a lot of shifts in the demographic makeup of the district. There's a lot of question around whether building more housing in places like this district in central Brooklyn and other places that have seen a lot of gentrification and demographic change over the last decade or so, couple decades at least, is sort of. One key answer is that a lot of press, progressive views on this have shifted a bit, including the mayor saying, actually we need a lot more housing supply into the system, including in some of the newer high demand neighborhoods, to take those pressures off. Because otherwise what you get is rising rents and displacement. So if you create more housing opportunities in these areas, you get less of that. Do you subscribe to that view? Have your, your sort of politics on housing, housing supply, up, zoning, things like that shifted with other progressives over the last few years. How do you sort of see those issues and, and in this district?
- [43:25]
A
Yeah, no, I think that's a really great question. And it's, it's one that I think we. Yeah, it's one, it's one that I've spent a lot of time thinking about. And, and I think it's also one that we talk about in a very unnuanced way when it's, it's, it's an issue that, that is very nuanced. You know, I think the, the, the fact that there are so many folks moving in from other parts of the city is a reflection of how deeply unaffordable the entire city is. Right. Again, this is the second poorest district in the state, if not the country, and it costs $4,000 for a two bedroom in Harlem or Washington Heights. That is deeply, deeply unaffordable. Right. That's unaffordable anywhere in the city, let alone in the second poorest part of the city. And so when we think about like housing and housing supply, you know, again, this district has the most public housing units in the entire country. And so many of those units are vacant because we've not invested in that. So part of it is, you know, we need to start funding the public, public housing so to make sure those units can actually be rented out, right. That folks can actually live there. We need to also be making sure that we are advocating for forms of housing, affordable housing that are access, like actually accessible to the people who live here. Because we've seen over the last two decades an exodus of over 200,000 black New Yorkers, people who have lived here for generations, who can't afford to stay. Right. And making sure that we're protecting people and their rights to stay in the city. 88% of this district, by the way, is made up of renters, which is one of the highest rates in the entire country. And so making sure that we're also investing in a pathway to homeownership that is affordable for the people who live here so that they don't have to worry about their landlords pushing them out of the city. Thinking about things like community land trusts and HDFCs and making sure that we're, we're actually making those robust programs so that people can actually afford to not only stay and rent here, but also buy and have their families live here for generations. And I think the fact that we see so many of our elected officials taking money from the very lobbies that profit from this kind of displacement is at the heart of the issue. And so how do you think about
- [45:52]
B
the idea that a lot of the newer arrivals in this district and other places, often younger white professionals, often getting priced out of the neighborhood, you know, the other neighborhood over. Right. This is happening in a lot of parts of the city, but upper Manhattan for sure. Central Brooklyn, again, other, other parts across, across several boroughs. That a lot of those folks are actually then the, the DSA voters. How do you think about that? And you know, sort of like your politics, which, you know, which voters are. You know, I know the data shows that Mayor Mamdani did especially well in this district among white voters and you know, did well among Latino and black voters as well. But, but different. How do you, how do you think about those demographic shifts and who's voting for who? And maybe this is more just that there's actually, it's just much more of an age bifurcation that younger voters of all races and ethnicities are more progressive. But how do you think about it?
- [46:56]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think you're right in the sense that the younger voters across all identities are more progressive. I think that's just. The data shows us that.
- [47:09]
B
And that's time honored tradition going back.
- [47:11]
A
Yeah, exactly. And this is a particularly young district. District. I think also though, like that is a reality. The one you're describing is a reality here in this district. And you know, as someone who is a Democratic socialist, you know, I came to Democratic socialism because of my organizing around racial justice. It was reading folks like Angela Davis and Fred Hampton and you know, folks who have been advocating for, you know, justice, both economic and racial justice for our communities for so long. Right. To me, Those things are inseparable. You cannot separate these notions from one another. And, you know, when I think about economic justice and racial justice, the fact that 200,000 black New Yorkers have left over the last two decades is a result of economic inequality, right? And so we have to actually address that economic inequality if we want to make sure that we're also advocating for. For racial justice in our communities. And this is a historically black district in Harlem. It's a historically Latino district, right? We have the young lords, you have the Black Panthers here advocating for our communities. And we should be fighting to preserve that legacy and more importantly, preserve the communities that make this district what it is. And there are folks coming in who also share these values. They might not share our racial or ethnic identity, but. But they are showing that their politics are ones that also understand the connection between racial and economic justice. And I would also argue that this problem is one that my opponent, Espaya, has himself created by supporting the very real estate corporations and lobbies that are pricing people out across the city, right? And forcing people to move from neighborhood to neighborhood to wherever they can actually afford to be. And so, you know, I. I'm excited about the coalition we're building because we're building one root in values, right? In fighting for the people who make the city what it is. And, you know, and I'm just really excited to be able to continue doing that.
- [49:28]
B
So let's just talk a couple quick minutes on the dynamics of the race itself. You have support from the Democratic Socialists of America New York City chapter that you come out of that endorsed you after, as you said, you know, you're recruited by the Justice Democrats and endorsed by that group, and then obviously of other endorsements. People can look at your website for the. For the list. But you have that sort of strength of the DSA organizing in an area of the city that DSA has become more active in part thanks to. To your work and your work organizing for the Mamdani campaign. But to this point where we're talking here on May 12, the mayor has not endorsed you in this race. Congresswoman Ocasio Cortez has not gotten involved. Again, she's got a sitting colleague, a Democratic colleague, obviously, that you're trying to unseat. But the two sort of biggest Democratic socialists in the city, maybe the country, are sort of on the sidelines right now. So how do you see sort of where that fits into the politics of it? Is it the DSA organizing and the door knocking and the canvassing that is really the key to victory here, and I say DSA broadly, you know, your campaign, along with your allies there and elsewhere. Is that really what it's about or is this a very difficult race to win if you don't get those endorsements from your high profile fellow DSAers?
- [50:55]
A
No, I think this is a race that folks are hungry for regardless of endorsement. I think of endorsements not as like who's putting their name onto this, but rather how are we building an infrastructure to bring our communities in. Right. And so that's why I'm so deeply grateful to DSA, to Justice Dams, to my union, UAW, Region 9A, to all of the folks who have come in because they're helping on the ground. Right. They're helping us build out this infrastructure for organizing that is allowing folks to be mobilized. Right. For me, I'm an organizer. So for me, this is a vehicle for something much bigger than the seat. It's a vehicle for empowering people to be part of their government and part of their politics. And we have a really robust field program right now where we are mobilizing so many New Yorkers to come out and talk to their neighbors. And that's been my priority. That's going to continue to be my priority. And you know, I have a lot of deep respect for, for, for both the congresswoman and the mayor. I would not have been knocking doors if I didn't like, agree with the values here. Right. And my priority is talking to my neighbors and making sure that we're delivering. And so just have you made the
- [52:15]
B
pitch to either or both of them to get involved? I mean, I know it seems like they both see it, that it would be a very big sort of political step in the city to go in and endorse against Congressman Espailad. Have you had a chance to sit down with either or both of them and sort of make your case?
- [52:34]
A
Yeah, again, I've been really focused, you know, on talking to our neighbors. I know that when folks learn about our race. Right. And our poll shows that, that when folks learn they're with us. And so my priority has, has been talking to them and making sure that they, they know to come out on June 23rd.
- [52:53]
B
All right, last, last thing here. If you are part of a House Democratic majority in the new year, are you one of the Democratic candidates who says it looks like Hakeem Jeffries will be the next Democratic speaker? There's not a lot of reason to sort of of put up a fight around that and have an internal war? He's not, you know, my favorite, you know, potential choice in a vacuum for that. But like, let's just get behind him or are you someone who wants to see a field emerge, a real race to be the speaker of the House if Democrats have a majority?
- [53:23]
A
Yeah, I, you know, there are a few things that have to happen before we I can get to that answer. And one of them is I have to win this primary. And the other one is that, you know, we have to Democrats have to win in November. Right. And so that's what I've been focusing on. I again, these are as someone who wants to come in, modeling what co governance can and should look like. That's something that I'll be discussing with my community as we step into that. But it's also, again, I think we really need to make sure that in these primaries we're focusing on not only on electing Democrats to represent us in Congress, but what kind of Democrats are we are we electing to represent us? Right. If we want to win in November, we need to have a Democratic Party that people can actually identify with and who people actually believe will fight for them.
- [54:18]
B
Let me ask you one more quick thing that that actually just reminds me of sorry. And I know I'm keeping a little long, but I appreciate the time. Let me let you finish on this. What do you make this district the vote in this district and some of the lines of change. But j, generally speaking, and this is general elections, we're talking about a primary here. But it's, it's a huge percentage of Democratic voters in this district. 2016 presidential election 92% Hillary Clinton, 5% Donald Trump. Then those numbers shift a little bit in 2020, Biden gets a little bit smaller percentage. Trump inches up a bit. But by the 2024 election in this district, it's Harris 68%, Trump 30%. What do you make of that? And what does you know, does that in your view speak to that what you just said, which reminded me of it, is that it's really about the kind of Democrats or is it something else? Is it about what we've seen in a lot of places that a lot of Latino voters seemingly are somewhat swing voters who will vote for whoever they more think and are not that allegiant to the Democratic Party, but will vote for people who they think are really speaking to their material needs? Is it, you know, something else? What do you make of that in this district, that big of a jump from 2016 to 2024 in the presidential election, Trump increasing His margins like that.
- [55:35]
A
Yeah. I, you know, the, the statistic I will add to that is last year's mayoral election.
- [55:41]
B
Sure.
- [55:42]
A
Where people came out in record numbers. I think the thing there was that they saw somebody who was actually willing to fight for them, who was like, let's do this together. Actually, this is not the job of one person. This is the job of all of us organizing to win these things and to make sure that we have leadership that is engaging us. And I think that is what has been lacking for so long. Folks have lost hope in establishment Democrats because they. They look at us and say, just trust me. And then we look at. Around at our daily lives, and our daily lives have not gotten any better. They've gotten harder. Right. We're facing fascism, actually. And, and in a time where things are so dire, what we need is not leadership that will tell us, oh, well, you don't know what it's like. We need leadership that can say, I want you to be part of this fight with me.
- [56:42]
B
Me.
- [56:43]
A
And in order for people to feel that they can identify with the Democratic Party, that is the type of leadership that we need to elect in the primaries. If there's any hope at all in the Democrats taking. Taking Congress back right. In November, it starts with these primary challenges and making sure that we are electing candidates who. Who have that same vision.
- [57:05]
B
Okay. I'm not going to let you tempt me into another question there on the. On the primary general raise your dad. I appreciate all the time, Darryllisa Villa Chevalier. Thank you for taking the time. And we just barely scratched the surface in nearly an hour, but I appreciate it, and it's good to hear your case for your campaign, and we'll. We'll be watching as it all unfolds here over the final six weeks or so.
- [57:27]
A
Well, thank you so much for having me. I really loved, loved talking with you and would love to come back sometime, so thanks.
- [57:33]
B
Thanks very much,
- [57:39]
A
Sam. It.